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RE: The Perpetual Discussion on the Sinless Mary - 5/1/2005 8:22:54 PM
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montfort
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Now,
You are out of context.
We are given our conscience to show us right from wrong Rom 2. It is God given. And to him that knoweth to do good, and does it not to him it it sin . James4:17
You equate concern (worrying) with sin. If you had a worry with a parents health and said a prayer, are you sinning cause you are concerned and prayed?
The context is if one knows to do good, by faith one knows, and doesnt do it then that is sin to that person.
If we have faith in something and know it is right to do, and do it not, then it is sin. And if we have faith and know it is not the right thing to do and do it anyway, then it is sin.
We have our conscience, the word of God and the whole deposit of faith to know "in faith" what we are to do and what is sin.
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RE: The Perpetual Discussion on the Sinless Mary - 5/1/2005 10:49:42 PM
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nowimfound
Posts: 389
Joined: 4/13/2005
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quote:
ORIGINAL: montfort
Now,
You are out of context.
We are given our conscience to show us right from wrong Rom 2. It is God given. And to him that knoweth to do good, and does it not to him it it sin . James4:17
You equate concern (worrying) with sin. If you had a worry with a parents health and said a prayer, are you sinning cause you are concerned and prayed?
The context is if one knows to do good, by faith one knows, and doesnt do it then that is sin to that person.
If we have faith in something and know it is right to do, and do it not, then it is sin. And if we have faith and know it is not the right thing to do and do it anyway, then it is sin.
We have our conscience, the word of God and the whole deposit of faith to know "in faith" what we are to do and what is sin.
Montfort,
I believe you are in error. The verses you quote have nothing to do with the issues I've raised.
I do not equate worrying with sin. If I worry about the health and well being of a lost child, my worry is well founded. Disaster may have befallen such. However, If God had given me a promise that same child would sit upon the throne of David, then for me to worry would be to doubt the fullfillment of God's promise. Such doubt gives birth to sin as it did when Eve was tempted to doubt God's command. The young Jesus asked Mary a very pointed question. "Why were you searching for me?" What had Mary forgotten that she didn't know where Jesus would be found?
Later, when Jesus is an adult early in his Ministry, Jesus is accused of being mad. Once again, Mary's actions are not born of trust and faith in Jesus, but she goes to take charge of him. Why? You have not explained this.
Grace and Peace,
NIF
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RE: The Perpetual Discussion on the Sinless Mary - 5/2/2005 11:29:26 PM
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onelordofall
Posts: 262
Joined: 4/11/2005
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NIF,
quote:
I do not equate worrying with sin. If I worry about the health and well being of a lost child, my worry is well founded. Disaster may have befallen such. However, If God had given me a promise that same child would sit upon the throne of David, then for me to worry would be to doubt the fullfillment of God's promise. Such doubt gives birth to sin as it did when Eve was tempted to doubt God's command. The young Jesus asked Mary a very pointed question. "Why were you searching for me?" What had Mary forgotten that she didn't know where Jesus would be found?
By your own admission, you equate parental "worry" with "doubt," yet you are unwilling to label your own worry "about the health and well being of a lost child" as "doubt." Interesting. Where do you find this "doubt" you speak of in Scripture alone? I'd love to hear how you come to such a conclusion.
I find it ironic that given your view of parental responsibility you cannot recognize a rather rebellious teenager as disobedient to the wishes of His parents. Certainly, He is without sin, but to try to pin "sin" on His mother in this instance is ludicrous. Since when does our Father condemn to hell the mother who is concerned for the well-being of her teenage son? Wow, NIF. You must find a better way if you plan to refute the doctrine and still maintain your dignity.
God bless,
Michael
Be back as soon as I can ...
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RE: The Perpetual Discussion on the Sinless Mary - 5/3/2005 12:13:58 AM
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nowimfound
Posts: 389
Joined: 4/13/2005
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quote:
ORIGINAL: onelordofall
NIF,
quote:
I do not equate worrying with sin. If I worry about the health and well being of a lost child, my worry is well founded. Disaster may have befallen such. However, If God had given me a promise that same child would sit upon the throne of David, then for me to worry would be to doubt the fullfillment of God's promise. Such doubt gives birth to sin as it did when Eve was tempted to doubt God's command. The young Jesus asked Mary a very pointed question. "Why were you searching for me?" What had Mary forgotten that she didn't know where Jesus would be found?
By your own admission, you equate parental "worry" with "doubt," yet you are unwilling to label your own worry "about the health and well being of a lost child" as "doubt." Interesting. Where do you find this "doubt" you speak of in Scripture alone? I'd love to hear how you come to such a conclusion.
I find it ironic that given your view of parental responsibility you cannot recognize a rather rebellious teenager as disobedient to the wishes of His parents. Certainly, He is without sin, but to try to pin "sin" on His mother in this instance is ludicrous. Since when does our Father condemn to hell the mother who is concerned for the well-being of her teenage son? Wow, NIF. You must find a better way if you plan to refute the doctrine and still maintain your dignity.
God bless,
Michael
Be back as soon as I can ...
Is this rambling reply your way of saying that you agree with my reading of Scripture? Mary doubted the promises of God and perhaps even the sanity of Jesus.
NIF
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RE: The Perpetual Discussion on the Sinless Mary - 5/10/2005 1:22:45 PM
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jrah06
Posts: 32
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Catholics believe Mary was born without sin because Pope Pius IX declared ex cathedra December 8, 1854 that she was born without sin.
This, however, however was not new - there had been some Catholics who had believed this all along, and there had been Catholics who had opposed this doctrine very strongly.
This "rift" before Pius IX's pronouncement was evidenced in a previous pope's comments. The following is an excerpt from the Constitutions of Pope Sixtus V.
"Certain preachers, as we have heard, of different orders, in their sermons to the people, have not hitherto been ashamed publicly to affirm in different cities and provinces, and do not desist from daily teaching, that all those who hold or agree that the same glorious and immaculate Mother of God was conceived without the stain of original sin, are guilty of mortal sin, or are heretics; that those who celebrate the service of the said immaculate conception, and those who hear the sermons of those preachers who affirm that she was conceived without this stain, sin grievously." – page 262, Can. Et Dec. Trid. Lip 1846.
This is simply solved if we look at the words of Scripture; namely, Mary's own words in the New Testament.
"And Mary said, 'My soul magnifies the Lord, 47 and my spirit rejoices in God my Savior"
(Chapter 1, Gospel of Luke. KJV)
The only person who does not need salvation is the person who is sinless and who therefore has not fallen short of God's glory. And the only human being who ever met this criteria was Jesus Christ.
It's really very simple. I would consider this entire debate about Mary's sinlessness a joke if it didn't involve millions who end up focusing on her and not on Jesus.
_____________________________
I am barely beginning to learn what following Christ really means - and each lesson is humbling. I'm glad, and fortunate, that God is more loving and patient than me.
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RE: The Perpetual Discussion on the Sinless Mary - 5/10/2005 2:42:04 PM
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bridgefin
Posts: 135
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From: Boca Raton, FL
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quote:
The only person who does not need salvation is the person who is sinless and who therefore has not fallen short of God's glory.
Not necessarily. Had God preserved Mary from all sin by grace at the time of her conception, then He would have truly been her savior for, otherwise, she would be in the same pit of sin as the rest of mankind. Having a savior does not demand that one has sinned, only that one would have sinned had she not been saved. No joke. 
In Christ, George
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RE: The Perpetual Discussion on the Sinless Mary - 5/10/2005 4:44:45 PM
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jrah06
Posts: 32
Joined: 4/18/2005
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quote:
ORIGINAL: bridgefin
quote:
The only person who does not need salvation is the person who is sinless and who therefore has not fallen short of God's glory.
Not necessarily. Had God preserved Mary from all sin by grace at the time of her conception, then He would have truly been her savior for, otherwise, she would be in the same pit of sin as the rest of mankind. Having a savior does not demand that one has sinned, only that one would have sinned had she not been saved. No joke.
In Christ, George
Hi George,
The reasoning that God "preserved" Mary from all sin by grace is not in the Bible. It is an explanation used by apologists of the Immaculate Conception, but it is nowhere in Scripture and it is not inferrable from what the Bible says.
Mary herself never stated she was sinless and neither did any of the N.T. writers, whether Peter, Paul, or John.
And if God would choose deliberately to preserve someone from all sin by grace at birth, He could have done it to me and to you. But He didn't. And, He didn't do it with the dozens of billions of humans who have lived on Earth.
He chose instead that Jesus would die so that we could be reconciled to Him.
_____________________________
I am barely beginning to learn what following Christ really means - and each lesson is humbling. I'm glad, and fortunate, that God is more loving and patient than me.
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RE: The Perpetual Discussion on the Sinless Mary - 5/10/2005 4:48:03 PM
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Lurker
Posts: 740
Joined: 4/11/2005
From: Silver Spring, MD
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quote:
Mary herself never stated she was sinless and neither did any of the N.T. writers, whether Peter, Paul, or John.
And if God would choose deliberately to preserve someone from all sin by grace at birth, He could have done it to me and to you. But He didn't. And, He didn't do it with the dozens of billions of humans who have lived on Earth.
He chose instead that Jesus would die so that we could be reconciled to Him.
Luke recounts the angel Gabriel telling Mary, "Hail Mary full of grace!"
Sure seems like she was considered without sin there.
And God preserved Mary before she sinned because she is unique in all human history. She is the new Eve, the ark of the New Covenant. The role given to her in the act of Salvation is unique.
_____________________________
Do not be afraid of Christ! He takes nothing away, and he gives you everything. When we give ourselves to him, we receive a hundredfold in return. Yes, open, open wide the doors to Christ—and you will find true life.
-Pope Benedict XVI
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RE: The Perpetual Discussion on the Sinless Mary - 5/10/2005 5:17:44 PM
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jrah06
Posts: 32
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Lurker
quote:
Mary herself never stated she was sinless and neither did any of the N.T. writers, whether Peter, Paul, or John.
And if God would choose deliberately to preserve someone from all sin by grace at birth, He could have done it to me and to you. But He didn't. And, He didn't do it with the dozens of billions of humans who have lived on Earth.
He chose instead that Jesus would die so that we could be reconciled to Him.
Luke recounts the angel Gabriel telling Mary, "Hail Mary full of grace!"
Sure seems like she was considered without sin there.
And God preserved Mary before she sinned because she is unique in all human history. She is the new Eve, the ark of the New Covenant. The role given to her in the act of Salvation is unique.
Hello,
The KJV says "highly favoured." Doesn't mean anything about being preserved from sin.
We are filled by God's grace upon our salvation when the Holy Spirit touches us and JUSTIFICATION occurs - but taht does not mean we are made sinless permanently.
As for God preserving Mary - please provide Scriptural proof for that. As for being unique - one of the OT prophets never tasted death but was carried to heaven by a chariot of fire. That was unique in all human history. but we are not to make a big deal out of that.
"New Eve" - no Scriptural reference to taht.
Ark of the New covenant... JESUS was all we needed as far as covenants go.
role in salvation ... she played NO ROLE AT ALL IN OUR SALVATION other than being blessed among women for having borne Christ when He was born as a baby on Earth. JESUS is the One Who died on teh ross and Who rose again. Not Mary.
_____________________________
I am barely beginning to learn what following Christ really means - and each lesson is humbling. I'm glad, and fortunate, that God is more loving and patient than me.
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RE: The Perpetual Discussion on the Sinless Mary - 5/10/2005 5:49:18 PM
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jrah06
Posts: 32
Joined: 4/18/2005
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Lurker
quote:
ORIGINAL: jrah06
Hello,
The KJV says "highly favoured." Doesn't mean anything about being preserved from sin.
The KJV is a highly inaccurate translation. I'd recommend a better one. :)
quote:
We are filled by God's grace upon our salvation when the Holy Spirit touches us and JUSTIFICATION occurs - but taht does not mean we are made sinless permanently.
As for God preserving Mary - please provide Scriptural proof for that. As for being unique - one of the OT prophets never tasted death but was carried to heaven by a chariot of fire. That was unique in all human history. but we are not to make a big deal out of that.
"New Eve" - no Scriptural reference to taht.
Ark of the New covenant... JESUS was all we needed as far as covenants go.
role in salvation ... she played NO ROLE AT ALL IN OUR SALVATION other than being blessed among women for having borne Christ when He was born as a baby on Earth. JESUS is the One Who died on teh ross and Who rose again. Not Mary.
First, show me where the scriptures require everything to be found in scriptures before it must be considered true. Second, find "the Trinity" in the scriptures as well.
Then I'll explain the concept of Mary being the New Eve. :)
Lurker,
Look at the last verses of Revelation. We're not supposed to add.
Besides, Genesis indicates a multi-personal Deity. Spirit of God. "... become like one of Us." And Jesus said it, John 17 ... "Father the hour has come... glorify me with teh glory I had with You before the world was." And the Bible refers to teh Holy Spirit as a Person.
As for the KJV's accuracy - I disagree. Its language may sound arcane in 2005, but it is a valid translation.
Now please show me where you got your new Eve, etc. doctrines.
_____________________________
I am barely beginning to learn what following Christ really means - and each lesson is humbling. I'm glad, and fortunate, that God is more loving and patient than me.
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RE: The Perpetual Discussion on the Sinless Mary - 5/10/2005 5:53:09 PM
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jrah06
Posts: 32
Joined: 4/18/2005
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Lurker,
I also would like to know what role Mary played in God's plan of salvation OTHER than her having borne the Christ Child. She wasn't crucified and she didn't pay for our sins.
_____________________________
I am barely beginning to learn what following Christ really means - and each lesson is humbling. I'm glad, and fortunate, that God is more loving and patient than me.
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RE: The Perpetual Discussion on the Sinless Mary - 5/10/2005 6:36:32 PM
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sdaw
Posts: 877
Joined: 4/11/2005
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quote:
ORIGINAL: jrah06
Lurker,
I also would like to know what role Mary played in God's plan of salvation OTHER than her having borne the Christ Child. She wasn't crucified and she didn't pay for our sins.
Dear jrah06,
Do any of us have a role in God's plan of salvation, other than being saved?
On the Feast of St. John of Avila
Blessed be God in His Angels and in His Saints!
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RE: The Perpetual Discussion on the Sinless Mary - 5/10/2005 8:25:43 PM
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montfort
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Joined: 5/1/2005
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Where does God dwell?
with Adam and Eve, completely pure and holy.
In the Ark of the Covenant, a pure , holy place.
In men after the Sacrifice and Resurection of our Lord, a pure , holy place. Because of complete forgiveness and removal of sin.
All times God indwells places that are , sinless and pure and holy and consecrated , thanks be to God.
God only ever completely indwells where there is no sin and purity of heart.
God cannot co-exist in union, in unity with a sinner. Let alone indwell as the Word Incarnate in Mary if she was full of sin. He never did before or since.
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RE: The Perpetual Discussion on the Sinless Mary - 5/11/2005 8:44:06 AM
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bridgefin
Posts: 135
Joined: 4/12/2005
From: Boca Raton, FL
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quote:
I also would like to know what role Mary played in God's plan of salvation OTHER than her having borne the Christ Child. She wasn't crucified and she didn't pay for our sins.
Before she conceived Jesus she did a most profound act of salvation. She said "yes" to God and that was the counter to the orininal woman saying "no" to God. Mary conceives following her: "I am the handmaid of the Lord. Be it done unto me according to the your word." Would Jesus have come if the new Eve had also said "no"? We don't know. All we do know is that He came immediately following Mary's "yes" and for that we can thank her for that major portion of our salvayion.
Immediately after conceiving Jesus Mary takes off to visit her cousin Elizabeth. And she brings Jesus to Elizabeth and John. That makes Mary the first evangelist, the first to bring Jesus to others.
Seems to me that Mary and Joseph preserved the life of Jesus by carrying Him off to Egypt to avoid his murder at the hands of Herod. No Jesus, no salvation. Kudos to them both for obediently following the instructions of the angel.
Luke relates that Jesus as a child grew and became strong and full of wisdom. And at whose knee were those lessons taking place? Following the journey to Jerusalem Jesus was obedient to Mary and Joseph until His public live began at age 30. I can't tell you that I know what occurred over that long period but no one on earth ever knew Jesus any better than Mary and no human had more influence on His life that she.
Jesus begins His public life with a miracle at Cana. And just how does that come about? Mary, not Jesus, sees a need and intercedes for the wedding couple to ask Jesus for a favor. Jesus begins His public life at the request of His mother, Mary, who is acting out of charity. Is it any wonder that Christians, some of the present company excepted, have gone to Mary when they are in need to ask her to intercede with her Son on their behalf?
And. yes, Mary is at the cross. Only Mary was at the very beginning and end of Jesus' life. And from the cross Jesus says to John: "Behold your mother" which Christians have believed from the beginning was Jesus giving Mary to all Christians as their spiritual mother to aid them in their journey to Jesus. And after He is gone, it is Mary who is mentioned by name as being at Pentecost with the disciples.
So, it is Jesus and Jesus alone who gains our salvation. But He commanded all of us to evalgelize so He asks all Christians to participate in His work of salvation. And none did more in that effort than Mary.
In Christ, George
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RE: The Perpetual Discussion on the Sinless Mary - 5/11/2005 11:01:56 AM
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Fritzpw_Admin
Posts: 7663
Joined: 2/28/2005
From: New Jersey
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Lurker
[Edited by Admin.]
This thread is not about the trinity.
Stay on topic please.
_____________________________
Fritz
Senior Manager of Social Media
fritz@salemwebnetwork.com
Want to see my latest online project? Check out http://budurl.com/CWonFacebook
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RE: The Perpetual Discussion on the Sinless Mary - 5/11/2005 11:41:37 AM
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Lurker
Posts: 740
Joined: 4/11/2005
From: Silver Spring, MD
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: jrah06
Lurker,
Look at the last verses of Revelation. We're not supposed to add.
Besides, Genesis indicates a multi-personal Deity. Spirit of God. "... become like one of Us." And Jesus said it, John 17 ... "Father the hour has come... glorify me with teh glory I had with You before the world was." And the Bible refers to teh Holy Spirit as a Person.
As for the KJV's accuracy - I disagree. Its language may sound arcane in 2005, but it is a valid translation.
Now please show me where you got your new Eve, etc. doctrines.
I'll have to dig around for my notes, but there's plenty of scriptural support for Mary being the "New Eve" Unfortunately, due to my VERY hectic workday I doubt I'll get to it until later this evening, if at all. *remembers that he has RCIA class*
Well, I'll try to post the scripture support tonight, but please be patient if it doesn't happen tonight. :) Work is hectic and I have class tonight.
That said, you never did point out where it said that scripture support is all that is needed for a doctrine to be considered sound. Where in the scriptures does it say that something must be found in scripture to be believed?
_____________________________
Do not be afraid of Christ! He takes nothing away, and he gives you everything. When we give ourselves to him, we receive a hundredfold in return. Yes, open, open wide the doors to Christ—and you will find true life.
-Pope Benedict XVI
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RE: The Perpetual Discussion on the Sinless Mary - 5/11/2005 11:58:13 AM
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caur
Posts: 231
Joined: 4/12/2005
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Doesn't Romans 3:23 say that "All have sinned and fall short of the glory of God"? Didn't Christ say that He did not come to save the righteous? Does that mean that salvation did not extend to Mary? How could Mary have received the gift of salvation by the atoning blood of Christ if she never sinned? If Mary was sinless, then she is not covered by the Blood. Wouldn't a sinless Mary have meant that there are/were TWO sacrifices capable of atoning for the sins of mankind? Mary was not without sin in her life. To believe such makes the Word of God a lie and the necessity and power of Christ's sacrifice unnecessary since Mary could have done the same thing for mankind. Christ had to be born of a natural woman in order to be born into the same sinful nature that the rest of us were in order to overcome it and be the atoning sacrifice. Remember in Genesis when woman was told that she would be saved through child-bearing?
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RE: The Perpetual Discussion on the Sinless Mary - 5/11/2005 12:05:32 PM
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sdaw
Posts: 877
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quote:
ORIGINAL: caur
Doesn't Romans 3:23 say that "All have sinned and fall short of the glory of God"? Didn't Christ say that He did not come to save the righteous? Does that mean that salvation did not extend to Mary? How could Mary have received the gift of salvation by the atoning blood of Christ if she never sinned? If Mary was sinless, then she is not covered by the Blood. Wouldn't a sinless Mary have meant that there are/were TWO sacrifices capable of atoning for the sins of mankind? Mary was not without sin in her life. To believe such makes the Word of God a lie and the necessity and power of Christ's sacrifice unnecessary since Mary could have done the same thing for mankind. Christ had to be born of a natural woman in order to be born into the same sinful nature that the rest of us were in order to overcome it and be the atoning sacrifice. Remember in Genesis when woman was told that she would be saved through child-bearing?
Dear caur,
Mary's preservation from Originan Sin, and her sinlessness was God's gift to her, the application in advance of Christ's saving work.
Man does not have a sinful nature. Man's nature is in a fallen condition. Christ was born with man's true nature. Only in this way could He be Savior, not saved.
On the Feast of St. Francis Jerome
Blessed be God in His Angels and in His Saints!
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RE: The Perpetual Discussion on the Sinless Mary - 5/11/2005 12:32:00 PM
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TheHustler
Posts: 12
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From: The Forgotten State of Dela-where?
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Then why bother dying on a cross? Why not just "save" all people at the moment of conception? Obviously if Mary knew that she needed a savior, why wouldn't we?
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RE: The Perpetual Discussion on the Sinless Mary - 5/11/2005 1:04:55 PM
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jrah06
Posts: 32
Joined: 4/18/2005
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Lurker
quote:
ORIGINAL: jrah06
Lurker,
Look at the last verses of Revelation. We're not supposed to add.
Besides, Genesis indicates a multi-personal Deity. Spirit of God. "... become like one of Us." And Jesus said it, John 17 ... "Father the hour has come... glorify me with teh glory I had with You before the world was." And the Bible refers to teh Holy Spirit as a Person.
As for the KJV's accuracy - I disagree. Its language may sound arcane in 2005, but it is a valid translation.
Now please show me where you got your new Eve, etc. doctrines.
I'll have to dig around for my notes, but there's plenty of scriptural support for Mary being the "New Eve" Unfortunately, due to my VERY hectic workday I doubt I'll get to it until later this evening, if at all. *remembers that he has RCIA class*
Well, I'll try to post the scripture support tonight, but please be patient if it doesn't happen tonight. :) Work is hectic and I have class tonight.
That said, you never did point out where it said that scripture support is all that is needed for a doctrine to be considered sound. Where in the scriptures does it say that something must be found in scripture to be believed?
quote:
I'll have to dig around for my notes, but there's plenty of scriptural support for Mary being the "New Eve" Unfortunately, due to my VERY hectic workday I doubt I'll get to it until later this evening, if at all. *remembers that he has RCIA class*
Well, I'll try to post the scripture support tonight, but please be patient if it doesn't happen tonight. :) Work is hectic and I have class tonight.
That said, you never did point out where it said that scripture support is all that is needed for a doctrine to be considered sound. Where in the scriptures does it say that something must be found in scripture to be believed?
_____________________________
"We are compelled to concede to the Papists that they have the Word of God, that we received it from them, and that without them we should have no knowledge of it at all."
~ Martin Luther
My journal
Jesus referred to the Word as a source of authority; He quoted the O.T. during His ministry.
2 Tim. 3:16 also points to Scripture as a source of authority - and reproof and correction.
And, we are told in the Bible not to believe a different gospel.
The Bible also has a part where God talks about men and their traditions in a way taht means God is displeased with those traditions. NOW, there is another part in which traditions are mentioned in a favorable light - but these traditions, and all others, must be submitted to the final authority of the WORD OF GOD as a standard, as a measuring stick.
_____________________________
I am barely beginning to learn what following Christ really means - and each lesson is humbling. I'm glad, and fortunate, that God is more loving and patient than me.
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RE: The Perpetual Discussion on the Sinless Mary - 5/11/2005 1:07:57 PM
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jrah06
Posts: 32
Joined: 4/18/2005
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quote:
ORIGINAL: sdaw
quote:
ORIGINAL: caur
Doesn't Romans 3:23 say that "All have sinned and fall short of the glory of God"? Didn't Christ say that He did not come to save the righteous? Does that mean that salvation did not extend to Mary? How could Mary have received the gift of salvation by the atoning blood of Christ if she never sinned? If Mary was sinless, then she is not covered by the Blood. Wouldn't a sinless Mary have meant that there are/were TWO sacrifices capable of atoning for the sins of mankind? Mary was not without sin in her life. To believe such makes the Word of God a lie and the necessity and power of Christ's sacrifice unnecessary since Mary could have done the same thing for mankind. Christ had to be born of a natural woman in order to be born into the same sinful nature that the rest of us were in order to overcome it and be the atoning sacrifice. Remember in Genesis when woman was told that she would be saved through child-bearing?
Dear caur,
Mary's preservation from Originan Sin, and her sinlessness was God's gift to her, the application in advance of Christ's saving work.
Man does not have a sinful nature. Man's nature is in a fallen condition. Christ was born with man's true nature. Only in this way could He be Savior, not saved.
On the Feast of St. Francis Jerome
Blessed be God in His Angels and in His Saints!
Hi Sdaw,
I have seen your posts before and my conclusion is that you truly are saved by Jesus. And I rejoice in that.
having said that, the Bible never says Mary was preserved from original sin, or that her sinlessness was God's gift to her, or an "in-advance" application of his saving work.
The doctrine of the immaculate conception became official only in 1854 and as with many other unbiblical Catholic doctrines, it was not believed by the first Christians nor by the Early Fathers. It was developed over time and it has absolutely no Scriptural backing; and, it has had the colossally dangerous result of making millions on Earth devote their affections to Mary rather than to Christ.
And THAT is, among others, one of the several significant points of contention between Protestants and Catholics - and it certainly is something I cannot compromise on. Mary was a sinner; Christ was not.
_____________________________
I am barely beginning to learn what following Christ really means - and each lesson is humbling. I'm glad, and fortunate, that God is more loving and patient than me.
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RE: The Perpetual Discussion on the Sinless Mary - 5/11/2005 1:33:42 PM
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Lurker
Posts: 740
Joined: 4/11/2005
From: Silver Spring, MD
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: jrah06
Jesus referred to the Word as a source of authority; He quoted the O.T. during His ministry.
2 Tim. 3:16 also points to Scripture as a source of authority - and reproof and correction.
And, we are told in the Bible not to believe a different gospel.
The Bible also has a part where God talks about men and their traditions in a way taht means God is displeased with those traditions. NOW, there is another part in which traditions are mentioned in a favorable light - but these traditions, and all others, must be submitted to the final authority of the WORD OF GOD as a standard, as a measuring stick.
2 Timothy 3:16 reads, "All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness:"
I don't see where it says that it's all we need though. I simply see that it's profitable. How do you get the idea that this verse proves scripture is all we need?
*note* I'll try to post some scripture relations to Mary on my lunch break. :)
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Do not be afraid of Christ! He takes nothing away, and he gives you everything. When we give ourselves to him, we receive a hundredfold in return. Yes, open, open wide the doors to Christ—and you will find true life.
-Pope Benedict XVI
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RE: The Perpetual Discussion on the Sinless Mary - 5/11/2005 1:57:03 PM
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jrah06
Posts: 32
Joined: 4/18/2005
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Lurker
quote:
ORIGINAL: jrah06
Jesus referred to the Word as a source of authority; He quoted the O.T. during His ministry.
2 Tim. 3:16 also points to Scripture as a source of authority - and reproof and correction.
And, we are told in the Bible not to believe a different gospel.
The Bible also has a part where God talks about men and their traditions in a way taht means God is displeased with those traditions. NOW, there is another part in which traditions are mentioned in a favorable light - but these traditions, and all others, must be submitted to the final authority of the WORD OF GOD as a standard, as a measuring stick.
2 Timothy 3:16 reads, "All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness:"
I don't see where it says that it's all we need though. I simply see that it's profitable. How do you get the idea that this verse proves scripture is all we need?
*note* I'll try to post some scripture relations to Mary on my lunch break. :)
The Bible warns against those who would preach another gospel.
The Bible says in the ending verses of Revelation that we are not to add to the Bible.
Enjoy your lunch!
But, seriously - if you are going to then insist that it is acceptable to use other doctrines or sources of authority BEYOND SCripture - then are you going to say it's not a problem if these doctrines/sources CONTRADICT the Bible?
_____________________________
I am barely beginning to learn what following Christ really means - and each lesson is humbling. I'm glad, and fortunate, that God is more loving and patient than me.
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RE: The Perpetual Discussion on the Sinless Mary - 5/11/2005 8:36:32 PM
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sdaw
Posts: 877
Joined: 4/11/2005
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: TheHustler
Then why bother dying on a cross? Why not just "save" all people at the moment of conception? Obviously if Mary knew that she needed a savior, why wouldn't we?
Dear TH,
Mary had been filled with grace. We are not so filled in the same way. She was aware of things we are not. God could have saved everyone in this way. He chose not to.
Catholics do not understand the Immaculate Conception as being in any way other than an application of Christ's atoning death and resurrection.
On the Feast of St. Francis Jerome
Blessed be God in His Angels and in His Saints!
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