|
Users viewing this topic:
none
|
|
Login  | |
|
RE: Eucharist... actual body and blood? - 4/22/2005 10:59:40 AM
|
|
|
kh31
Posts: 22
Joined: 4/13/2005
From: San Diego, CA
Status: offline
|
Hello Facedown my good friend,
Your posts are always a blessing and well said. God bless you.
_____________________________
"This sand is my sins which are trailing out behind me, while I go to judge the sins of another." - St. Moses the Black
|
|
|
|
|
RE: Eucharist... actual body and blood? - 4/22/2005 11:08:05 AM
|
|
|
facedown
Posts: 906
Joined: 4/12/2005
From: the urban desert
Status: offline
|
Hey Mike!!
So good to see you. I have not been as active here on this forum. I guess I'm just an old dog...which I have been accused of here btw, actually quite funny.
Anyways, I will try to send you a letter out before too long
Peace
|
|
|
|
|
RE: Eucharist... actual body and blood? - 4/22/2005 11:50:11 AM
|
|
|
kh31
Posts: 22
Joined: 4/13/2005
From: San Diego, CA
Status: offline
|
I'm glad you continue to post here Bill. I too have been a bit absent on this new forum. I think I was a little angry because I was so close to being a veteran on the old one. Now I'm a new member again. Oh well.
I like what you said, "Feasting on the Flesh and Blood of our risen and exalted Christ is a deep mystery. One thing is certain: if you do not feast on Christ, there is no life in you."
This is truth. If we are so offended that we cannot stomach feeding on Him in this very real way (I've heard some christian apologists call this cannibalism), then how can we feed on Him in all the other ways???
I've always thought of the communion in this way. It wasn't until a year ago that I learned the communion can be taken with a different view such as this. I too am not RC, I've been to Baptist, Presbyterian, Anglican and non-denominational churches. If it was ever said that the communion could be taken in such a way as to not believe it is the actual blood and actual flesh, this never entered my heart and I'm sure it was said. But as for me, I am feasting on Christ. No one taught me this, but it was revealed to me and for me and remains in me by the Holy Spirit.
I think for me, my belief in this regard comes from childish thinking. As a child I never thought of the bread and the juice as only that. I was connected with Christ, feasting on Him and He was my Manna during the communion (although I didn't know the word Manna growing up). He was my bread. When I grew up I never had the sophistication to think otherwise and it was my nature to reject such sophistication. This is why I say your posts are such a blessing and profound. Because in them I see the simple and unsophisticated truth, mystery and power of the gospel. Not the wisdom of men which is foolishness to God, but the wisdom of God which is foolishness to men perishing.
< Message edited by kh31 -- 4/22/2005 11:54:40 AM >
_____________________________
"This sand is my sins which are trailing out behind me, while I go to judge the sins of another." - St. Moses the Black
|
|
|
|
RE: Eucharist... actual body and blood? - 4/22/2005 7:58:24 PM
|
|
|
DeborahL
Posts: 1345
Joined: 4/11/2005
Status: offline
|
Dear sdaw:
You: "Since Catholics believe it is by the power of God that the bread and wine become the Body and Blood, Soul and Divinity, and you are ok with this, I will sleep well tonight knowing that you have come to this understanding.?
Me: Read again my post you quoted.
Simply by ''Spirit''. This is what his word teaches us. Christ has risen and lives in us by Spirit.
HIS actual body: The true bread, IS not created, transformed nor manufactured into manmade forms and concecrated by earthly priests.
Grace and Peace
|
|
|
|
|
RE: Eucharist... actual body and blood? - 4/22/2005 8:08:42 PM
|
|
|
DeborahL
Posts: 1345
Joined: 4/11/2005
Status: offline
|
Dear facedown:
You: "Your 24/7 theory "sounds" nice; however, Scripture proves this to be false. I assume now (forgive me if I'm wrong) that your a Calvinist who believes in OSAS.
Some people feast, others do not. Some feast, and turn away from the table to feast on other food. Do a quick read through 1 and 2 Kings....?
Me: NO--Christ is with us!
Scripture teaches us that the true bread which is Christ will remain with us, and will not forsake us.
YOUR disagreement , imo, is with Christ. AND this is who the Spirit testifies in us.
I do not care to be called or labeled a calvin--but I do care, with unfathomable gratefullness to God, am his child.
Christ is the meadiator of a New Covenant-the old has passed away. The curtain has been torn.
We, by faith, and by this grace have Christ in us-living 24/7. This is how we feed on him ""IN FULLNESS". We have the fullness of the true bread 24/7.
AND He is the only one who has the seal of God's approval!
Grace and Peace
|
|
|
|
RE: Eucharist... actual body and blood? - 4/23/2005 3:25:49 PM
|
|
|
onelordofall
Posts: 262
Joined: 4/11/2005
Status: offline
|
If I'm not mistaken, DeborahL was quoting portions of Hebrews earlier in an effort to discredit the Catholic Church's understanding of the Eucharist. She continues to assert that the spiritual aspect of the Eucharist necessarily equates to a symbolic mere "remembrance." She has also continued to label the Catholic celebration of the Eucharist with words like "man-made" and such.
I would like to direct the attention of participants to Hebrews 8:3:
Now every high priest is appointed to offer gifts and sacrifices; thus the necessity for this one also to have something to offer.
If Christ is not eternally offering His one-time Sacrifice for our sake, He has no right to the title, "High Priest." It is His High Priesthood, manifested by His Eternal offering of His Sacrifice of Himself, which makes our celebration of the Eucharist efficacious when it is celebrated in communion with those He commissioned to "Do this."
Not saying devout Christians cannot find Grace elsewhere, but there is no greater Communion with the Lord than receiving Him in the Sacrament He established.
Pax Christi,
Michael
|
|
|
|
RE: Eucharist... actual body and blood? - 4/24/2005 3:27:24 PM
|
|
|
bettyg51
Posts: 28
Joined: 4/12/2005
Status: offline
|
quote:
ORIGINAL: DeborahL
Me: NO--Christ is with us!
Scripture teaches us that the true bread which is Christ will remain with us, and will not forsake us.
I saw a car with a big "My son is home from Iraq!!!" sign on it the other day. Wasn't her son "with" her when she talked on the phone or got mail from him?
If your idea of presence of The Son is only spiritual, not physical, then there would be no difference between receiving Him spiritually or physically. But Jesus knows humans need a physical presence in a love relationship, so He gives Himself physically to us in the Eucharist. He is a bridegroom that did not run off from the wedding feast and say, "I'll see you in the next life. Till then, I'll only be with you spiritually." Instead, He said, "Remain in me, and I will remain IN you.." The Eucharist is a the way Jesus chooses to be with us physically. I should put a big sign on my car on the way home from Mass, "Jesus is IN me!"
Betty
|
|
|
|
|
RE: Eucharist... actual body and blood? - 4/24/2005 8:57:33 PM
|
|
|
DeborahL
Posts: 1345
Joined: 4/11/2005
Status: offline
|
Dear Michael:
You: If I'm not mistaken, DeborahL was quoting portions of Hebrews earlier in an effort to discredit the Catholic Church's understanding of the Eucharist.
Me: Michael I will not discredit God's word. I am sorry you took offense.
Christ is the true bread in us.
Not what man, as in earthly priests to concecrate, or can create, transform or manufacture AS his true bread his "actual body". We cannot make an IMAGE of our GOD-who IS our true bread: BY faith.
If we do we violate his command.
I'll stand with my LORD, the true bread from heaven, and what he has sacrificed once and for all, to be with me.
I'll stand with my LORD and his word-no matter how unpopular it is. For, I fear my God. And he simply said he and the Father will give us the true bread of "heaven".
You: She continues to assert that the spiritual aspect of the Eucharist necessarily equates to a symbolic mere "remembrance." She has also continued to label the Catholic celebration of the Eucharist with words like "man-made" and such.
Me: Bless you: I will stand firm in his word.
There is no teaching to create, transform nor manufacture a wafer in his actual body. This is false. His real body is testified in the Spirit and it is life, for us, by faith.
You: I would like to direct the attention of participants to Hebrews 8:3:
Now every high priest is appointed to offer gifts and sacrifices; thus the necessity for this one also to have something to offer.
If Christ is not eternally offering His one-time Sacrifice for our sake, He has no right to the title, "High Priest."
Me: Christ offered his body to the Spirit once and for all time. In the fullnessof God's time this was accomplished for us-in this present age.
AND he was unblemished =pure. Other priest had to purify themselves as well as the people-REPEATEDLY-but not this one, for all time. The new covenant has come and the old has passed away.
You: It is His High Priesthood, manifested by His Eternal offering of His Sacrifice of Himself, which makes our celebration of the Eucharist efficacious when it is celebrated in communion with those He commissioned to "Do this."
Me: He is efficacious right now by faith IN FULLNESS> there is no man made altar nor curatain--HE as the new covenant established: a new and living way by his blood. Offered to the Eteranl Spirit. We eat on his bread and blood 24/7 in fullness by his Spirit by faith.
You: Not saying devout Christians cannot find Grace elsewhere, but there is no greater Communion with the Lord than receiving Him in the Sacrament He established.
Me: The communion that God seeks, in Spirit and in truth; the work of God and his will that God does infact do--is to have faith in his Son.
This is ''the grace'' that we have entered into By FAITH, and have peace with God.
I, cannot think of any grace better '' than the real and living Christ'' for me, in my spirit to his, as a new creation.
Grace and Peace
|
|
|
|
|
RE: Eucharist... actual body and blood? - 4/24/2005 9:26:49 PM
|
|
|
DeborahL
Posts: 1345
Joined: 4/11/2005
Status: offline
|
Dear facedown:
{quote:Me: "NO--Christ is with us!
Scripture teaches us that the true bread which is Christ will remain with us, and will not forsake us."}
You: And your interpretation of John 5, or of the 1-2 Kings, or a bunch of Paul's epistles? That once in the Vine we cannot 'not' abide in the Vine?
Me: Simply Jesus said remain in me--for apart from me you can do nothing. I trust that Jesus, the true bread from heaven is with me 24/7 in fullness, as ''his word'' says he is. And he says he WILL NOT FORSAKE US.
You: You force yourself to interpret some Scripture in a manner that is not plain or clear.
Me: Bless you.
I am simply respondng to your post with his word. I hear you very well. And my usage of his word is very plain for all to see--I agree with his word and do not force JESUS into AN IMAGE.
You: Thank you for your opinion; however, it's fruitless to this discussion, and I'll ask you to refrain from such opinions again.
ME: God's word is unpopular to many people.
I do not think I have been rude.
I am sorry you feel you are being attacked--this is not my intention. I am sorry you take offense. Though, I love his word more than myself.
I want to be acceptable, and pleasing--but I must be acceptable and pleasing first to God, my dear brother.
You: It also appears that your understanding of the "old" Covenant is lacking. Quite simply it's summed up as such "Return to Me, and I will return to You". Yes! We are in Christ and Christ is in us! It's the Good News, it's a revelation of transcendent truth that God is with us!
God has always been with His people, and His people have always been with God
Me: Bless you. Dear brother, let us visit with love.
I have read, and meditated on the OT, and I have understood the terms from Jesus, that sacrifices and burnt offerings did not please God--so how could God forgive us, and our faithlessness?
Jesus came, a body prepared to do ''his will''. And by that will we are made holy.
Jesus is a new and living way.
His Spirit is life-and in us as a new creation he will never forsake us. But will remain to sanctify his people, and unto the truth. The true bread of God is his work in us, to believe his Son: came into our world, has died and has RISEN to '''live and give''' life! By faith.
Grace and Peace
|
|
|
|
|
RE: Eucharist... actual body and blood? - 4/24/2005 10:04:28 PM
|
|
|
DeborahL
Posts: 1345
Joined: 4/11/2005
Status: offline
|
Dear bettyg51
{quote:ORIGINAL: DeborahL
Me: NO--Christ is with us!
Scripture teaches us that the true bread which is Christ will remain with us, and will not forsake us.}
You: I saw a car with a big "My son is home from Iraq!!!" sign on it the other day. Wasn't her son "with" her when she talked on the phone or got mail from him?
Me: Of course her son was with her when she ''talked'' on the phone with him. However, when she read his mail-it was from a ''''rememberance''-not THE actual.
btw: I should not have to say let us have manners that are not harsh. I have my dear dad who lived THE tet offensive in Vietnam-I know phone talk, I know map travels, I know of letters in bunches and I know tdy..etc..// I know the differences of his actual presence and I know rememberances-I know thinking he was dead and I know hope in the LORD.
Christ is not '''physically''' with us in remembering his last supper, but-HE IS IN fullness in the Spirit. This is where IS life. Praise God.
AND I know NOT to violate his commad to make him INTO AN ACTUAL IMAGE.
You: If your idea of presence of The Son is only spiritual, not physical, then there would be no difference between receiving Him spiritually or physically.
Me: We receive God via Spirit. This is where his life is. And this is the gospel of the good news for this world.
You: But Jesus knows humans need a physical presence in a love relationship, so He gives Himself physically to us in the Eucharist.
Me: This is false--God by his gift of grace gives us his gift of faith IN:Jesus. HE IN us, WE ARE a "new creation."
Jews and greeks sought signs and miracles--but Betty we preach the foolishness of ''one thing'': the cross.
You: He is a bridegroom that did not run off from the wedding feast and say, "I'll see you in the next life.
Me: Of course not. See above.
You: Till then, I'll only be with you spiritually." Instead, He said, "Remain in me, and I will remain IN you.." The Eucharist is a the way Jesus chooses to be with us physically.
Me: No. This is false to ''his word.''
I care to stand with his word and no other man. It is Jesus I love completely and in doing so make no mistake I want to love you to.
There is no Eucharist, NOR a bread that is concecrated by earthly priests and transformed into '''his actual ''' maufactured body; taught from Jesus.HOWEVER:
HE said : MY Father and I will give you the true bread. Do you not believe him?
You: I should put a big sign on my car on the way home from Mass, "Jesus is IN me!"
Me: ..a saying:..One should not know what the right hand is doing from the left. That is love from the 'heart'. Where Jesus lives--not on an altar on Sunday--but the common everyday bread, for sustanance and for trust, the one who lives in us, by our faith expresses, what real love is.
God.
Grace and Peace
|
|
|
|
|
RE: Eucharist... actual body and blood? - 4/25/2005 7:15:09 AM
|
|
|
facedown
Posts: 906
Joined: 4/12/2005
From: the urban desert
Status: offline
|
Firstly.....such an argument as "God's word is unpopular to many people..." as your defense is unwarranted. State boldly and plainly your accusation, if thats your intent. If not, I'll ask again for you to please refrain from such statements. Thanks.
quote:
Dear brother, let us visit with love. Sounds great!
Moving on....you said that "Jesus is a new and living way". I find this statement, slightly eroneous. Christ said, that He is not a "new" way...but THE Way, THE Truth, and THE Life.
Transcendent, what is...was...and will be. Only through Christ, only feasting on Christ, only in, through, and by Christ.
Peace
|
|
|
|
|
RE: Eucharist... actual body and blood? - 4/25/2005 3:41:05 PM
|
|
|
DeborahL
Posts: 1345
Joined: 4/11/2005
Status: offline
|
Dear facedown:
You: Firstly.....such an argument as "God's word is unpopular to many people..." as your defense is unwarranted.
Me: Prase God--his word is unpopular to many people. I have given much more than your above staement from his word.
You: State boldly and plainly your accusation, if thats your intent.
Me: I have stated myself very clear-and repeated simply what Jesus tells us in his word. In comparison to what is being done.
I am sorry you take offense from this.
You: If not, I'll ask again for you to please refrain from such statements. Thanks.
Me: I have not accused you.
I am sorry you have taken offense
You: Moving on....you said that "Jesus is a new and living way". I find this statement, slightly eroneous. Christ said, that He is not a "new" way...but THE Way, THE Truth, and THE Life.
Me: Agreed. He is also the mediator of a new convenant:
"For this reason Christ is the mediator of a new convenant, that those who are called may receive the promised eternal inheritance -- now that he has died as a ransom to set them free from the sins commited under the first convenant."
You: Transcendent, what is...was...and will be. Only through Christ, only feasting on Christ, only in, through, and by Christ.
Me: Scripture please.
"The Holy Spirit was showing by this that the way into the Most Holy Place had not been disclosed as long as the first tabernacle was still standing.
This is an illustration for the present time, indicating that the gifts and sacrifices being offered were NOT able to clear the conscience of the worshiper.
They are only a matter of food and drink and various ceremonial washings --- eternal regulations applying
until the time of the new order"
Grace and Peace
|
|
|
|
RE: Eucharist... actual body and blood? - 4/26/2005 7:17:20 PM
|
|
|
DeborahL
Posts: 1345
Joined: 4/11/2005
Status: offline
|
Dear facedown:
You: Transcendent, what is...was...and will be. Only through Christ, only feasting on Christ, only in, through, and by Christ.
Me: Scripture please.
You: Scripture for what? The transcendence of God? Of Scripture? Of the Eternal Word of God
Me: Bless you.
Of his 'actual body' being in manufactured, tranformed and created bread concreated by earthly priests.
Than what Jesus said: my Father and I will give you the true bread from heaven.
Grace and Peace to you
|
|
|
|
|
RE: Eucharist... actual body and blood? - 4/27/2005 7:45:06 AM
|
|
|
facedown
Posts: 906
Joined: 4/12/2005
From: the urban desert
Status: offline
|
I'm actually quite curious as to how you wanted me to answer:
quote:
his 'actual body' being in manufactured, tranformed and created bread concreated by earthly priests
from the original question you asked:
quote:
Scripture please.
Based on the following statement:
quote:
Transcendent, what is...was...and will be. Only through Christ, only feasting on Christ, only in, through, and by Christ.
However, I'm left again...with another questions, and thats how in you world you have asked this question. What is it, that you heard...either in the above quote, or in any of my posts here, that lead you to ask this last question?
|
|
|
|
|
RE: Eucharist... actual body and blood? - 4/27/2005 11:55:05 AM
|
|
|
DeborahL
Posts: 1345
Joined: 4/11/2005
Status: offline
|
Dear All:
Please excuse my error eternal should read: "external" in the below passage.
"They are only a matter of food and drink and various ceremonial washings --- eternal regulations applying
until the time of the new order"
Grace and Peace
|
|
|
|
|
RE: Eucharist... actual body and blood? - 4/27/2005 12:10:55 PM
|
|
|
DeborahL
Posts: 1345
Joined: 4/11/2005
Status: offline
|
Dear facedown:
You said: However, I'm left again...with another questions, and thats how in you world you have asked this question. What is it, that you heard...either in the above quote, or in any of my posts here, that lead you to ask this last question?
Me: The topic we are centered upon is about the Eucharist-is it the actual body and blood of Jesus.
I know that Jesus said the Father and I give you the' true bread'. I know that God is Spirit-and is the same yesterday today and forever.
Jesus said--what if you see the Son of man ascend to where he was before.
There is no teaching from his word nor Jesus that states earthly priests concecrate and give us the actual true bread from heaven-but that it is Jesus himself who is testified in the Spirit where there is life. And declared' who ' has the seal of God's approval.
Again his word simply declares that he and the Father give us the bread from heaven.
Nor does the word teach us that a man manufactures, creates, and transforms his 'actual body' into the earthly bread.
For again-the word states God gives us the 'true bread'. And he is Spirit. I believe God and his word.
I believe he will do what he says.
And I believe he is all-complete and all-sufficient to give me his bread, daily.
Just as Jesus said, and prayed.
Grace and Peace to you
|
|
|
|
|
RE: Eucharist... actual body and blood? - 4/27/2005 12:11:56 PM
|
|
|
facedown
Posts: 906
Joined: 4/12/2005
From: the urban desert
Status: offline
|
So you believe this passage from Hebrews, which testifies that it is speaking about ancient practices, was really, or directly relates to what Christ taught?
As well, maybe I missed an earlier post. You believe that one feasts on Christ, yet during the time, that one partakes of the Eucharist, you believe that one suspends feasting, because one is participating in a physical act, with physical bread and wine? Did you share logic to this...or have I misunderstood your position?
**side note** do you believe worshipers of God, feasted on Christ PRIOR to say...3 A.D.?
|
|
|
|
|
RE: Eucharist... actual body and blood? - 4/27/2005 12:23:59 PM
|
|
|
DeborahL
Posts: 1345
Joined: 4/11/2005
Status: offline
|
Dear sdaw:
I know from his word that sacrfices and burnt offerings did not please God, but Jesus said-''here I am''.
God saw that the inner man was not faithful to the OT laws.
In the fullness of God's timing, he sent his Son to mediate the new covenant where we have his one time sacrifice, his shed blood offered to the eternal Spirit even before creation; applied in us-that will make us perfect.
By his grace, through his gift of faith.
Grace and Peace
|
|
|
|
|
RE: Eucharist... actual body and blood? - 4/27/2005 3:33:04 PM
|
|
|
DeborahL
Posts: 1345
Joined: 4/11/2005
Status: offline
|
Dear facedown--I am sorry I addressed my previous post incorectly. It was for you.
Hear is the scripture reference:
"First he said, 'Sacrifices and offerings,
burnt offerings and sin offerings you
did not desire, nor were you pleased
with them'
although the law required them
to be made). Then he said, 'Here I am,
I have come to do your will.' He sets
aside the first to establish the second.
And by that will,
we have been made holy
through the sacrifice of
the body of Jesus Christ
once for all.
Day after day every priest stands and
performs his religious duties; again
and again he offers the same sacrifices,
which can never take away sins.
But when this priest had of-
fered for all time one sacrifice
for sins, he sat down at the right
hand of God. Since that time
he waits for his enemies to be made
his footstool,
because by one sacrfice
he has made
perect forever those who are
being made holy.
The Holy Spirit also testifies to us about this."
"Therefore, brothers, since we
have confidence to enter the Most Holy Place
by the blood of Jesus,
by a NEW AND LIVNG WAY
opened for us through the curtain,
that is, his body,
and since we have a great priest
over the house of God,
let us draw near to God,
with a sincere heart in full assurance of faith,
having our hearts sprinkled to cleanse us from
a quilty conscience and havng our bodies
washed with pure water."
Grace and Peace to you
|
|
|
|
|
RE: Eucharist... actual body and blood? - 4/27/2005 3:53:45 PM
|
|
|
facedown
Posts: 906
Joined: 4/12/2005
From: the urban desert
Status: offline
|
Hey, no prob:
quote:
So you believe this passage from Hebrews, which testifies that it is speaking about ancient practices, was really, or directly relates to what Christ taught?
As well, maybe I missed an earlier post. You believe that one feasts on Christ, yet during the time, that one partakes of the Eucharist, you believe that one suspends feasting, because one is participating in a physical act, with physical bread and wine? Did you share logic to this...or have I misunderstood your position?
**side note** do you believe worshipers of God, feasted on Christ PRIOR to say...3 A.D.?
|
|
|
|
|
RE: Eucharist... actual body and blood? - 4/27/2005 4:14:02 PM
|
|
|
DeborahL
Posts: 1345
Joined: 4/11/2005
Status: offline
|
Dear facedown:
Imo, Christ' body was offered to the eternal Spirit. His body and blood sustains us via Spirit. In our inner man, by faith.
We cannot create an earhtly image, into God's actual body.
Jesus said if a man comes to me-he will have eternal life.
We come to him in our spirit. God, who is Spirit, will give us his true bread: Jesus, and he is completely sufficient from his Spirit to ours to sustain us for eternal life.
The bread and wine at communion are a representation, not an image of his actual body and blood, of what Christ said to do in "rememberance" of him.
He has died and risen to live in us.
Dear brother, grace and peace to you
|
|
|
|
|
RE: Eucharist... actual body and blood? - 4/27/2005 4:25:05 PM
|
|
|
facedown
Posts: 906
Joined: 4/12/2005
From: the urban desert
Status: offline
|
Sounds like your suggesting that once one tastes and sees that the LORD is good; one finds themselves in a place where they may desire to, may choose to, but don't have to "taste" again. Yet you believe one must come to Christ....sounds like a calvin-spin off.
I agree that our feasting is done in spirit, as it should have been clear thus far.
And
quote:
So you believe this passage from Hebrews, which testifies that it is speaking about ancient practices, was really, or directly relates to what Christ taught?
As well, maybe I missed an earlier post. You believe that one feasts on Christ, yet during the time, that one partakes of the Eucharist, you believe that one suspends feasting, because one is participating in a physical act, with physical bread and wine? Did you share logic to this...or have I misunderstood your position?
**side note** do you believe worshipers of God, feasted on Christ PRIOR to say...3 A.D.?
|
|
|
|
|
Forum Tools
Printable Version
