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RE: Praying to the Saints & Mary? - 10/6/2008 4:48:22 PM
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mcleod
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I just got in on this conversation so forgive me if I repeat something that has been discussed. Tell me, what separates one from "the love of God". Does death? Romans 8 says no. So those in heaven are members of the body of Christ. Now tell me, does one part of the body need another? Romans 12 and 1 cor 12 say yes.
Geraldh, Romans 8 in which you say talks of death. Hum... let take what it really is talking about. Did Adam and Eve die when they ate of the tree? Well we know the answer is a resounding no. Yet god said that the day you eat of it you shall surely die. Could it be a spiritual death God was talking about? Could it be that Paul in Romans 8 is talking about the same idea? I would say yes, that when I waas born into this world I was born spiritual dead to God. For Paul writes in a previous in the letter. That the wages of sin is death. A spiritual seperation from God. If I chose not to repent and follow God and trust him at his words. Then I have a chance of a second death. Which is written in the book of Revelation. Because of man's sin we do experience a physical death. But to us you believe we have eternal life which happens the moment we believe. Plus one other thing as i have read the Romans 8 I can't read what you say it reads. 
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Yet we are told in heb 12 that we are surrounded by a cloud of witnessess. Guess they haven't upgraded their technology from silent moves yet. We are told that the apostles sit on thrones and judge the 12 tribes. I guess somehow they can do that without hearing and knowing what is going on. We are told that there is great rejoicing in heaven over one repentant sinnner yet how can they know there was repentence without some form of "hearing" or knowing what is going on.
If you can get that out of Hebrews 12 you are better person than me. Are you sure you have the right scripture?
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But revelations 5 and 8 indicate clearly to me that they add their prayers to ours.
As I wrote previously. You can read more into thoses passages then what I can see as being in there.
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RE: Praying to the Saints & Mary? - 10/7/2008 12:04:36 PM
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Geraldh
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quote:
Geraldh, Romans 8 in which you say talks of death. Hum... let take what it really is talking about. Did Adam and Eve die when they ate of the tree? Well we know the answer is a resounding no. Yet god said that the day you eat of it you shall surely die. Could it be a spiritual death God was talking about? Could it be that Paul in Romans 8 is talking about the same idea? I would say yes, that when I waas born into this world I was born spiritual dead to God. For Paul writes in a previous in the letter. That the wages of sin is death. A spiritual seperation from God. If I chose not to repent and follow God and trust him at his words. Then I have a chance of a second death. Which is written in the book of Revelation. Because of man's sin we do experience a physical death. But to us you believe we have eternal life which happens the moment we believe. Plus one other thing as i have read the Romans 8 I can't read what you say it reads.
Actually the Hebrew in the Adam and Eve story is a double die. It includes both spiritual and physical death. The passage does not say "you shall surely die immediately". As for Romans 8 considering that it is one of the most commonly used passages in support of Eternal Security or Once Saved Always Saved your answer surprizes me. I thought once we got saved we could not spiritually die. Considering v. 35, I find your explanation unlikely.
[34] who is to condemn? Is it Christ Jesus, who died, yes, who was raised from the dead, who is at the right hand of God, who indeed intercedes for us?
[35] Who shall separate us from the love of Christ? Shall tribulation, or distress, or persecution, or famine, or nakedness, or peril, or SWORD.
So I find it likenly that Romans 8 is in fact talking about physical death. But even if v. 38 speaks of the spiritual death as you say, 35 does not.
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If you can get that out of Hebrews 12 you are better person than me. Are you sure you have the right scripture?
What? That we are surrounded by a cloud of witnessess? That pretty clearly stated in heb 12. "Therefore, since we are surrounded by so great a cloud of witnesses..." I didn't ref where the scriptures say that the Apostles would sit on thrones judging the 12 tribes. That I think is in Matt 12. I didn't ref where it said there is great rejoicing over the repentance of one sinner. I can look it up if you don't believe that it's in the Bible. The point is that for these things to be true, it cannot only be God that knows what is going on but yet I have non Catholics tell me over and over that those in heaven don't know what is going on on earth. It's unbiblical and clearly the reason they say it is because of their negative view of Catholic theology, distorted by things they have learned along the way from anti-catholicism.
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As I wrote previously. You can read more into thoses passages then what I can see as being in there.
As can non-catholics read far more in to 2 Tim 3:16 and Romans 3:28 than is really there. Non-Catholic tell me that we need to interpret scripture with scripture. I have given you the logic and scripture, at least in part behind why Catholics ask those in heaven to pray for us. If you want explicit statements in this regard then you had better be prepared to provide explicit statements for doctrines such as "faith alone", "scripture alone", altar calls without baptisms, etc.
< Message edited by Geraldh -- 10/7/2008 12:35:27 PM >
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RE: Praying to the Saints & Mary? - 10/7/2008 1:19:13 PM
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Geraldh
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It's commanding.
So you legalistically do it because it's commanded. Interesting.
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I do that too, first and foremost.
And what makes you think I don't.
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Nope. I just deny that it is legitimate to prayer towards them. They are not part of the body in the same sense that we on earth are.
They aren't? Christ's body can be divided? Some are in one form of Christ's body and some in another form of Christ's body? Really. Please expound on this theology.
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RE: Praying to the Saints & Mary? - 10/8/2008 10:27:40 AM
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Catholicandloveit
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Just wanted to say welcome Geraldh!
Pax,
Mary
_____________________________
Blessed be Jesus in the Most Holy Sacrament of the Altar
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RE: Praying to the Saints & Mary? - 10/8/2008 10:54:17 AM
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mcleod
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Geraldh;
quote:
Actually the Hebrew in the Adam and Eve story is a double die. It includes both spiritual and physical death. The passage does not say "you shall surely die immediately". As for Romans 8 considering that it is one of the most commonly used passages in support of Eternal Security or Once Saved Always Saved your answer surprizes me. I thought once we got saved we could not spiritually die. Considering v. 35, I find your explanation unlikely.
[34] who is to condemn? Is it Christ Jesus, who died, yes, who was raised from the dead, who is at the right hand of God, who indeed intercedes for us?
[35] Who shall separate us from the love of Christ? Shall tribulation, or distress, or persecution, or famine, or nakedness, or peril, or SWORD.
So I find it likenly that Romans 8 is in fact talking about physical death. But even if v. 38 speaks of the spiritual death as you say, 35 does not.
Now we are getting to what you are talking about. What the writer here is talking about; that the love of ours towards Christ should not have effect on our tribulation we are experiencing at the time. That we are to remain strong in our love to Lord throughout all of our trails we encounter. In the context that Paul is writing in these scriptures are about suffering for the glory that will be revealed in us.
So to go back to your orginal statement you made;
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I just got in on this conversation so forgive me if I repeat something that has been discussed. Tell me, what separates one from "the love of God". Does death? Romans 8 says no. So those in heaven are members of the body of Christ. Now tell me, does one part of the body need another? Romans 12 and 1 cor 12 say yes.
What you are trying to get across doesn't fit the passage you have entered.
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As can non-catholics read far more in to 2 Tim 3:16 and Romans 3:28 than is really there. Non-Catholic tell me that we need to interpret scripture with scripture. I have given you the logic and scripture, at least in part behind why Catholics ask those in heaven to pray for us. If you want explicit statements in this regard then you had better be prepared to provide explicit statements for doctrines such as "faith alone", "scripture alone", altar calls without baptisms, etc.
It is by grace of God and my faith that I am saved nothing else or I could be boosting about that I am such a great person. Which I am not very good at being that good.
By the way I just don't read just certian scriptures. But I read the whole thing to get the big picture in what the writer is trying to convey.
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RE: Praying to the Saints & Mary? - 10/9/2008 8:21:27 AM
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Geraldh
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Thx Mary.
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RE: Praying to the Saints & Mary? - 10/9/2008 8:28:47 AM
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Geraldh
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quote:
Now we are getting to what you are talking about. What the writer here is talking about; that the love of ours towards Christ should not have effect on our tribulation we are experiencing at the time. That we are to remain strong in our love to Lord throughout all of our trails we encounter. In the context that Paul is writing in these scriptures are about suffering for the glory that will be revealed in us.
So to go back to your orginal statement you made;
What you are trying to get across doesn't fit the passage you have entered.
How is what you are saying in contradiction to what I have said. AMEN the passage is speaking of hope in trial! It is saying that this tribulation may even go as FAR AS DEATH but we are to persevere because of the love of God that remains even till DEATH! Now how can you possibly say the passage does not say that in death we are not separate from him. That is exactly why he is asking us to suffer through trial for if we do not understand the love of God fear of death keeps us from persevering and doing what is right.
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It is by grace of God and my faith that I am saved nothing else or I could be boosting about that I am such a great person. Which I am not very good at being that good.
By the way I just don't read just certian scriptures. But I read the whole thing to get the big picture in what the writer is trying to convey.
I boast in nothing but Christ. You have a disordered sense of humility. God works in and through us (eph 3:20-21) producing 30, 60, or 100 fold. If I do do good it is soley because of him whom I give glory to. If I do wrong it is because I resist his grace. We don't need to beat up his work working in us. Sounds to me like you are saying you do no good. It is sad that your protestant theology has put this in you.
Matt.5
1. [16] Let your light so shine before men, that they may see your good works and give glory to your Father who is in heaven.
Without him we can do nothing but in him we can do all things. All praise and glory be to him.
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RE: Praying to the Saints & Mary? - 10/9/2008 10:15:37 AM
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mcleod
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quote:
Geraldh:
How is what you are saying in contradiction to what I have said. AMEN the passage is speaking of hope in trial! It is saying that this tribulation may even go as FAR AS DEATH but we are to persevere because of the love of God that remains even till DEATH! Now how can you possibly say the passage does not say that in death we are not separate from him. That is exactly why he is asking us to suffer through trial for if we do not understand the love of God fear of death keeps us from persevering and doing what is right.
Don't take me wrong but the subject is about praying to the saints & Mary. Not about death or suffering in the part in which Romans 8 is used. Id you use the passage of Romans 8 to verfied you thought pattern. I can't find it in that passage that you have used.
To let you know I have had written things from the administration on about staying on the subject.
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RE: Praying to the Saints & Mary? - 10/9/2008 11:22:26 AM
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Geraldh
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Your kidding me right? I used the passage to make a point about praying to mary and the saints. If a passage is not explicitly about something but there is something implicitly related we can't quote it and discuss it? If this is what this message forum is then it is nonsense. The passage is related to the point I was trying to make about praying to Mary and the Saints.
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RE: Praying to the Saints & Mary? - 10/9/2008 11:24:10 AM
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Geraldh
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Now I suppose if I quote James "the prayers of a righteous man avial much" and say there are none more righteous than those in heaven and so we should want them to pray for us, you will say I am off topic. If that is the case and the mgmt agrees I proudly accept any demerit they give me.
By the way this is off topic as well.
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It is by grace of God and my faith that I am saved nothing else or I could be boosting about that I am such a great person. Which I am not very good at being that good.
By the way I just don't read just certian scriptures. But I read the whole thing to get the big picture in what the writer is trying to convey.
You said it.
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RE: Praying to the Saints & Mary? - 10/9/2008 12:02:32 PM
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mcleod
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Geraldh
Your kidding me right? I used the passage to make a point about praying to mary and the saints. If a passage is not explicitly about something but there is something implicitly related we can't quote it and discuss it? If this is what this message forum is then it is nonsense. The passage is related to the point I was trying to make about praying to Mary and the Saints.
No I am not kidding you. You wrote this;
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Actually the Hebrew in the Adam and Eve story is a double die. It includes both spiritual and physical death. The passage does not say "you shall surely die immediately". As for Romans 8 considering that it is one of the most commonly used passages in support of Eternal Security or Once Saved Always Saved your answer surprizes me. I thought once we got saved we could not spiritually die. Considering v. 35, I find your explanation unlikely.
[34] who is to condemn? Is it Christ Jesus, who died, yes, who was raised from the dead, who is at the right hand of God, who indeed intercedes for us?
[35] Who shall separate us from the love of Christ? Shall tribulation, or distress, or persecution, or famine, or nakedness, or peril, or SWORD.
So I find it likenly that Romans 8 is in fact talking about physical death. But even if v. 38 speaks of the spiritual death as you say, 35 does not.
Using the verses 34 and 35 in your defense.
(34)A court of law comes to mind . No charge can be brought against the Christian because God has already pronouced a verdict of not guilty.
Three reasons are given as to why no one can condemn God's elect: (1) Christ died for us;(2) he is alive and seated at the right hand of God, the postion of power;(3) he is interceding for us.
(35) Paul wanted to show his readers that suffering does not seperate believers from Christ, but actually carries them along toward their ultimate goal.
If you can get Mary out of that. Then you have read more into it then what is there. When the passage is about the Lord Jesus Christ and what he did for mankind on the cross.
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RE: Praying to the Saints & Mary? - 10/9/2008 12:21:07 PM
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Geraldh
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Apparently syllogistic logic isn't your forte. The point in the use of the passage is that those in heaven are not separated from the body of Christ, i.e. the love of God. If you cannot see that in the passage I can't help that. If they are not separate from the body then considering what Romans 12 and 1 Cor 12 say along with 1 Tim 2:1-4 about the good of those in the body praying for one another then it is logical that they should pray for us and Rev 5 and 11 indicate that they do. I find that logic applies quite nicely to scripture but if you don't want to use it don't blame me for trying to make a point with it. Are you sure you can't see in Romans 8 that we are not separated from the body of Christ, i.e. the love of God by death? Really?
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RE: Praying to the Saints & Mary? - 10/9/2008 12:43:30 PM
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mcleod
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Geraldh;
Romans 12 can' read about Mary in that passage. The only thing about pray is to be faithful in it.
1 Corinthian 12 Is written about gifts. that each one of us has to help each other. If you think those up in heaven need help I don't know of any scriptures to that effect.
1 Timothy 2: 1-4 Speaks of praying, you are right about that. Except he is addressing individuals who are here on earth. Then he goes and states that there is only one God and one mediator. Between God and men which is the man Christ Jesus. There is only one person according to the creator. Who set the rules which he said to the Father only. Our Father who art in heaven. Not Mother Mary who is in heaven.
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RE: Praying to the Saints & Mary? - 10/9/2008 1:31:34 PM
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Geraldh
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Again syllogism is not your forte. If you want to limit those in heaven to less "technology" than we have on earth, ie.. they can't "hear" they can't know what is going on, they are not the members of the body of christ, they can't pray and have no way of knowing if we are asking them to, then that is your pergative. 1 Tim 2:1-4 says it is good to pray for others. I don't see where it says "if you are alive" or "when you are dead stop praying for others because then it's not good" or "when you die you are no longer a member of the body of Christ". You won't like these arguements but they are the type you are using when you say that 1 Cor 12 and Romans 12 and 1 Tim 2:1-4 has nothing to do with those in heaven. Do you only pray to the Father? Never direct your prayers to the Holy Spirit of Jesus?
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RE: Praying to the Saints & Mary? - 10/9/2008 3:44:49 PM
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EssenceofExcellence
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Samuel was upset because Saul used a medium and conjured up a spirit which is forbidden! But praying/talking to a saint (obviously not directly seeing them or having conjured them up in anyway) is a completely different thing. Also, the only two Saints I'm aware of that have made appearances since leaving earth are Elijah and Mary. The significant thing about them is that Elijah, for example, NEVER died he was raptured into heaven like Enoch in Genesis. Therefore when Elijah has come back like it is said in the talmud he isn't a dead person he's alive. Also, as for Mary, the tradition surrounding her death says that she died but then Jesus came and combined her soul/spirit back with her body once again after death and assumed her into heaven (basicly rapturing her up). Now, knowing this, you can see a difference between Mother Mary coming back down to earth (either from her own free will or because she was sent by God) and Saul having a medium attempt to conjure up the spirit of Samuel from the depths of the earth in Sheol. A living in body Saint in heaven coming to earth is different and not in violation of speaking with the dead compared to using a medium to conjure up a saint sleeping in sheol.
Here are three excerts from various parts of the Talmud which state that Rabbi's had contact with Elijah who appeareed to them. Some are only excerts mind you so the second one for instance you might not understand what they're talking about but here you go:
1: R. Beroka Hazaah used to frequent the market place Be Lapat, where Elijah often appeared to him. Once he asked him: is there anyone in this market worthy of a share of the world to come? He (Elijah) replied: No. While they were talking, two men passed by and he said: These two are due for a share in the world to come. He (R. Beroka) approached them and asked: What is your occupation? They replied: We are merrymakers. When people are sad we cheer them up, and when we see two people who have quarreled we try to make peace between them.
just like to add Mathew chp. 5 verse 9: "Blessed are the peacemakers: for they shall be called the children of God."
2: Rabbah b. Shela encountered the prophet Elijah and he asked him: What is the Holy One, praised be He, doing? He answered him: He is quoting the teachings of all the Sages, but not those of R. Meir. He said to him: But why not? He answered: It is because he studied under Aher. He protested: But R. Meir found a pomegranate, he ate the inside and discarded the shell. He Elijah replied: Just now he is quoting: My son Meir says: When a person suffers, what does the Holy One, praised be He, say? "I feel a heaviness in my head, in my arm" (an idiom for "I grieve"). If God is so troubled when the blood of the wicked has been shed, how much so is He troubled when the blood of the innocent has been shed.
3. The prophet Elijah used to reveal himself to R. Anan and he would study the seder Eliyahu with him. After this incident Elijah no longer came to him. (R. Anan had gave preceedence to a case involving Torah rather than a case involving orphans to precide over as judge)
Also, I just heard this on TV today. I don't know if it's true or not I haven't researched it. But a man that appeared Jewish was on the catholic network talking about the communion of saints. Since it's Yom Kippur he was talking about the time called the days of awe between Rosh Hashanna and Yom Kippur and talked about how during that time the Jews would visit the graves of their ancestors and ask them to intervene for them and pray for them. Which is a Jewish root to the practice in catholicism. Maybe someone with Jewish roots would be able to find out if that's true or not.
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RE: Praying to the Saints & Mary? - 10/10/2008 11:50:09 AM
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mcleod
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Geraldh
Again syllogism is not your forte. If you want to limit those in heaven to less "technology" than we have on earth, ie.. they can't "hear" they can't know what is going on, they are not the members of the body of christ, they can't pray and have no way of knowing if we are asking them to, then that is your pergative. 1 Tim 2:1-4 says it is good to pray for others. I don't see where it says "if you are alive" or "when you are dead stop praying for others because then it's not good" or "when you die you are no longer a member of the body of Christ". You won't like these arguements but they are the type you are using when you say that 1 Cor 12 and Romans 12 and 1 Tim 2:1-4 has nothing to do with those in heaven. Do you only pray to the Father? Never direct your prayers to the Holy Spirit of Jesus?
I am not limiting those you have passed on. In some circles you have them teaching with plenty of verses to state they are in sleep mode. If that would be the case then it would be a waste of hot air to talk to them. I believe you are the body of the Lord Jesus Christ when you haved passed on. But then you are in his total prences then and what I read is that we no longer have to pray. What may I ask do they need to pray for now? Remember the story of the rich man and Lazuras. What Abraham told the rich man who wanted to make a come back. " If they don't listen to the Moses and the Prophets. What would make them believe a person who comes from the grave?
So you can ask Mary all you won't to to... I don't know save you? But it the ball is in your court on how that is handled.
Get the picture in this just because you think you can call on Mary or a dead saint is not scriptual. The prayers that are shown in Revelation started here on this planet.
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RE: Praying to the Saints & Mary? - 10/10/2008 1:17:29 PM
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Geraldh
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In some circles you have them teaching with plenty of verses to state they are in sleep mode.
If that would be the case then it would be a waste of hot air to talk to them.
The body sleeps. Orthodox Christianity has ruled out soul sleep as heretical.
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But then you are in his total prences then and what I read is that we no longer have to pray. What may I ask do they need to pray for now?
To pray for is to interceed and ask God for blessings. They of course need no blessing but again I have been told that they don't know what is going on down here and kind of forget their family. That is illogical. What would they need to pray for? That there family and friends end up with them in the prescence of Christ for all eternity of course. The holy spirit interceeds for us (prays) for us. Why would the HS need to pray for us. In rev 8 it says that the smoke of the incense, which is our prayers, rises up to heaven. Then it clearly states that the incense of those in heaven is mixed with our prayers. This is to me a clear indication that they do join their prayers with ours. Where do you read that they don't need to pray?
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Remember the story of the rich man and Lazuras. What Abraham told the rich man who wanted to make a come back. " If they don't listen to the Moses and the Prophets. What would make them believe a person who comes from the grave?
What does this have to do with someone coming back from the dead to talk to us. That's not what our practice is about at all. It is simply asking those in heaven to pray before the throne of God for us. It is not trying to get any kind of information out of them or having them come back to straighten us out.
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So you can ask Mary all you won't to to... I don't know save you? But it the ball is in your court on how that is handled.
Get the picture in this just because you think you can call on Mary or a dead saint is not scriptual. The prayers that are shown in Revelation started here on this planet.
Where have I claimed Mary will save me? It is quite clear in Rev 8 that those in heaven mix their prayer with ours.
Rev.5
1. [8] And when he had taken the scroll, the four living creatures and the twenty-four elders fell down before the Lamb, each holding a harp, and with golden bowls full of incense, which are the prayers of the saints;
Rev.8
1. [3] And another angel came and stood at the altar with a golden censer; and he was given much incense to mingle with the prayers of all the saints upon the golden altar before the throne;
2. [4] and the smoke of the incense rose with the prayers of the saints from the hand of the angel before God.
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RE: Praying to the Saints & Mary? - 10/13/2008 3:48:05 AM
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kelman
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Geraldh
Tell me, what separates one from "the love of God". Does death? Romans 8 says no. So those in heaven are members of the body of Christ. Now tell me, does one part of the body need another? God tells us to pray only for those who are on earth - never to anyone who has died. And no, the saints in heaven do not need you, nor do you need them. Christians should remember who it is they actually need.
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We are told that the apostles sit on thrones and judge the 12 tribes. I guess somehow they can do that without hearing and knowing what is going on. More references to Scripture which have no bearing on the topic. There are two schools of thought concerning the Mat 19:28 and neither fit into your theology. Either the Apostles are alive and well on this earth spreading the Gospel or they, and every other believer, are in heaven. Besides, Christ here is speaking metaphorically.
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We are told that there is great rejoicing in heaven over one repentant sinnner yet how can they know there was repentence without some form of "hearing" or knowing what is going on. Two verses deal with this and neither offer support for your view. It is the joy of God which heaven joins in. We can see this better in the two OT passages. There is no evidence that the saints in heaven know anything other than what God rejoiced over and possibly revealed to them. I say possibly because the saints are never mentioned only the angels are.
Luke 15: 7 I say unto you, that likewise joy shall be in heaven over one sinner that repenteth,
Luke 15:10 There is joy in the presence of the angels of God over one sinner that repenteth;...
There are the OT passages which lend themselves to this idea of God rejoicing over His Bride or the ones He loves.
As the bridegroom rejoices over the bride, so shall your God rejoice over you. -Isaiah 62:5
The Lord your God in your midst, The Mighty One, will save; He will rejoice over you with gladness, He will quiet you with His love, He will rejoice over you with singing. -Zephaniah 3:17
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Yet I have protestants tell me that basically those in heaven kind of forget about their loved ones on earth and request nothign for them. They do so on the basis of sound scriptural principles.
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But revelations 5 and 8 indicate clearly to me that they add their prayers to ours. One can only reach such a conclusion when he reads his church's theology presuppositons into passages which say no such thing.
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And when he had taken the book, the four beasts and four and twenty elders fell down before the Lamb, having every one of them harps, and golden vials full of odours, which are the prayers of saints. -Revelation 5:8 The elders in that passage are referred to as carrying the prayers to God, not as the recipients of the prayers. And besides, who are these "saints", those on earth or already in heaven? We can't know. Obviously, if we don't know who the saints are, we don't know whose prayers are being referenced. Just as when the angels in Rev 16:2 are carrying “bowls of wrath” are we to conclude that the angels therefore are the recipients of the wrath? Of course not.
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And another angel came and stood at the altar, having a golden censer; and there was given unto him much incense, that he should offer it with the prayers of all saints upon the golden altar which was before the throne. And the smoke of the incense, which came with the prayers of the saints, ascended up before God out of the angel's hand. -Revelation 8:3-4
These prayers are offered to God, not to anyone else - for the incense ascended up before God. The "incense" represents the prayers of the saints - it says so twice. Therefore, the incense does not represent the intercessory prayers of the angels or the elders in heaven.
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2 Tim 2:1-4 tells us that intercession for others is good. Does it somehow become bad in heaven? Yes, "praying one for another" is good because it is a biblical command; but, the references you posted have nothing to do with the issue. These speak of Timothy being faithful to teach other men what Paul openly preached to him and many others. Perhaps you meant some other passage?
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Now tell me why we can't ask for their prayers? Just did.
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“beware lest you lose the substance by grasping at the shadow”
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RE: Praying to the Saints & Mary? - 10/13/2008 4:05:05 AM
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kelman
Posts: 3897
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Geraldh
But I see as a part of tradition that there is support for this all the way back to the Catacombs in the first century upon which were inscribed "Peter and Paul pray for us". Fine, limit it to your church's tradition then. Don't try to say the Bible offers any support for your tradition - because it doesn't.
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As for Romans 8 considering that it is one of the most commonly used passages in support of Eternal Security or Once Saved Always Saved your answer surprizes me. What does Rom 8 have to do with praying to saints?.....nothing. Verse 34-35 are speaking of Christ as the Adovcate for the believer - nothing to do with praying to saints.
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It's unbiblical and clearly the reason they say it is because of their negative view of Catholic theology, distorted by things they have learned along the way from anti-catholicism. No, clearly they disagree with you because of their positive view of Scripture - they believe it - when Christ says to pray this way: "Our Father, who art in heaven..." Scripture teaches nothing about praying to saints. So far, you've offered no verses to support your view - not one. All of Scripture, in fact, mitigates against your tradition.
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I have given you the logic and scripture, at least in part behind why Catholics ask those in heaven to pray for us. You've given nothing other than your church's teaching with regard to its tradition.
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Your kidding me right? I used the passage[Rom 8] to make a point about praying to mary and the saints. If a passage is not explicitly about something but there is something implicitly related we can't quote it and discuss it? If this is what this message forum is then it is nonsense. The passage is related to the point I was trying to make about praying to Mary and the Saints. Rom 8 most certainly is not explicit and neither is it even implicit. It simply does not speak to the issue. It's absurd to offer it as support for praying to saints. It is simply an argument from silence.
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Now I suppose if I quote James "the prayers of a righteous man avial much" and say there are none more righteous than those in heaven and so we should want them to pray for us, you will say I am off topic. You are not "off topic" but James 5:16 offers no support for your position. It says "Confess your faults one to another, and pray one for another, that ye may be healed. The effectual fervent prayer of a righteous man availeth much."
Do you confess your sins to the saints now? Do they confess their sins to you? Of course not. This is clearly limited to those individual members of the local churches - it says so - "call for the elders of the church".
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“beware lest you lose the substance by grasping at the shadow”
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RE: Praying to the Saints & Mary? - 10/13/2008 8:38:55 AM
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Geraldh
Posts: 48
Joined: 7/22/2008
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God tells us to pray only for those who are on earth - never to anyone who has died. And no, the saints in heaven do not need you, nor do you need them. Christians should remember who it is they actually need.
The first is an arguement from silence, which you attacked me on. Time will tell if the "need" us with them in heaven. I can tell you I will likely go before my children and I "need" them in heaven with me. My posts in no way deny our need for Christ but your last statement seems to deny romans 12. Do you claim Christians don't need eachother? Are you wiser than God?
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More references to Scripture which have no bearing on the topic. There are two schools of thought concerning the Mat 19:28 and neither fit into your theology. Either the Apostles are alive and well on this earth spreading the Gospel or they, and every other believer, are in heaven. Besides, Christ here is speaking metaphorically.
Not off topic at all. The claim is made that those in heaven can't "hear" us or know what is going on on earth. The passages I presented prove that they can and do know what is going on. You seem to be simply hostile and not willing to listen to clear evidence of scripture. I sense hatred in your posts. Do you claim those in heaven had no idea what is going on on earth? If you do then you are unbiblical. If you dno't then don't refute things you agree with.
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Two verses deal with this and neither offer support for your view. It is the joy of God which heaven joins in. We can see this better in the two OT passages. There is no evidence that the saints in heaven know anything other than what God rejoiced over and possibly revealed to them. I say possibly because the saints are never mentioned only the angels are.
Those in the OT were not in heaven. Christ is the first fruits so that passages in the OT that you think support your view do not apply. One passage speaks of the angels. The other passage in the other gospel does not seem to limit it. I see no reason why those sitting around the angels when they start rejoicing over someone's repentence wouldn't at least be told what is going on. Especially if it were one of their relatives. You seem to think there are great secrets in heaven that can't be told. I think your just arguing out of animoisity and being devisive.
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Luke 15: 7 I say unto you, that likewise joy shall be in heaven over one sinner that repenteth,
This passage does not limit it.
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Luke 15:10 There is joy in the presence of the angels of God over one sinner that repenteth;...
That the angels rejoice is no contradiction to everyone rejoicing and you seem to think the angels need to keep secrets from people in heaven. That's kinda silly considering what heaven is.
There are the OT passages which lend themselves to this idea of God rejoicing over His Bride or the ones He loves.
[quopte]As the bridegroom rejoices over the bride, so shall your God rejoice over you. -Isaiah 62:5
The Lord your God in your midst, The Mighty One, will save; He will rejoice over you with gladness, He will quiet you with His love, He will rejoice over you with singing. -Zephaniah 3:17
Of course he does. What's your point. Off topic.
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They do so on the basis of sound scriptural principles.
Not on scripture but on human rationalization. There are no passages that say those in heaven do not do these things and as I have indicated above there are passages that show a concern and mingling of prayers with ours.
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One can only reach such a conclusion when he reads his church's theology presuppositons into passages which say no such thing.
anti-catholics conclusions are generally denials of what scripture says. They like to reinvent the wheel for themselves and exalt themselves as pillar and support of the truth. So what do you conclude about the mingling of incense by the saints in heaven with ours on earth? You don't seem to have an answer. Could it be because you are hostile to the truth?
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The elders in that passage are referred to as carrying the prayers to God, not as the recipients of the prayers. And besides, who are these "saints", those on earth or already in heaven? We can't know. Obviously, if we don't know who the saints are, we don't know whose prayers are being referenced. Just as when the angels in Rev 16:2 are carrying “bowls of wrath” are we to conclude that the angels therefore are the recipients of the wrath? Of course not.
Your arguements are silly. I didn't claim that passage says that those in heaven are the recipient of the prayers spoken about here. I merely said that they mix their prayers with ours and we can ask for THOSE prayers. Not the ones in the bowl offered to God. Do you deny they pray? If you do then you miss the point of the incense mixed with the prayers of those on earth.
the saints - it says so twice. Therefore, the incense does not represent the intercessory prayers of the angels or the elders in heaven.
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Yes, "praying one for another" is good because it is a biblical command; but, the references you posted have nothing to do with the issue. These speak of Timothy being faithful to teach other men what Paul openly preached to him and many others. Perhaps you meant some other passage?
You equate biblical with what you see as explicit in scripture. Yet sola scriptura and sola fide are not explicit in scripture. Nowhere does the scriptures use "bible alone" and "faith alone" (oh wait there is one for faith alone). Yet you call them biblical. Nowhere in scripture are there altar calls without baptisms. Yet protestants do them all the time. Every Sunday.
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Just did.
Your interpretation is better than mine. I know.
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RE: Praying to the Saints & Mary? - 10/13/2008 1:41:47 PM
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mcleod
Posts: 1076
Joined: 4/4/2006
Status: offline
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To pray for is to interceed and ask God for blessings. They of course need no blessing but again I have been told that they don't know what is going on down here and kind of forget their family. That is illogical. What would they need to pray for? That there family and friends end up with them in the prescence of Christ for all eternity of course. The holy spirit interceeds for us (prays) for us. Why would the HS need to pray for us. In rev 8 it says that the smoke of the incense, which is our prayers, rises up to heaven. Then it clearly states that the incense of those in heaven is mixed with our prayers. This is to me a clear indication that they do join their prayers with ours. Where do you read that they don't need to pray?
For one thing I don't read there that dead saints method. Of course you would say they ain't dead fool. Which I would reply you are right. But I can't picture them just sitting around and watching us.
You keep now bring up the verses in Revelation.If you would look up in Dt 33:10, Ps. 141:2 You will notice that prayers of the saints. That incense was ritual for symbol of prayer . Like what you do swinging that thing around. In later Jewish thought, angels often present the prayers of saints to God. Not saints as you and your church came out of nowhere with those thoughts.
Where we have a picture of the censer. Is in which Moses was order to make a replica of in Ex. 27:3, Ex 30:1 Where the censer is a firepan used to hold live charcoal for the burning of incense to be mingled "with" prayers. The Greek for this phrase also allows a translation that takes the incense "to be" the prayers. All though the angel is involed in presenting the prayers of the saints to God, He does not make them acceptable. The Jewish apocalypic concept of angels as mediators, or proceed in death human beings. Finds no place in the New Testament.
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RE: Praying to the Saints & Mary? - 10/13/2008 5:47:06 PM
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Geraldh
Posts: 48
Joined: 7/22/2008
Status: offline
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McCleod,
Could you please provide that last post in English. It's not undestandable.
"But I can't picture them just sitting around and watching us. "
I didn't say that is all they do. But it is clear from Heb 12:1 that they do do that. "Since we are surrounded by so great a CLOUD OF WITNESSES". You guys always go to the extremes and dichotomies. I know I will be interested in the salvation of my children after I enter heaven. Of course I will be basking in the rays of God's glory! Contemplating him. Your claim that we won't care about what is going on with our loved ones is ludicrous.
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RE: Praying to the Saints & Mary? - 10/13/2008 7:48:07 PM
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mcleod
Posts: 1076
Joined: 4/4/2006
Status: offline
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You have now gone to Hebrews 12:1 and use the statement "surround by such a great cloud of witnesses". The imagery suggest an athletic contest in a great amphithearter. The witnesses are the heroes of the past who have been mentioned in chapter 11. they are not spectators but inspiring examples. The Greek word translated "witnesses" is the orgin of the English word martry and means" testifiers, witnesses." They bear testimony to the power of faith and to God's faithfulness. Where you get that these people are making intersession for us out of this is another story.
Did you know by what is written in that passage is about a type of race. In fact a rather long one, which as was in that day the letter was written there was great persecution(as there is today) and a lot of them were giving up. Because it bein | | |
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