|
Users viewing this topic:
none
|
|
Login  | |
|
RE: Praying to the Saints & Mary? - 9/16/2008 2:11:34 AM
|
|
|
kelman
Posts: 3897
Status: offline
|
From merriam-webster.com we see that necromancy is defined first as:
1 : conjuration of the spirits of the dead for purposes of magically revealing the future or influencing the course of events
The word "conjuration" has for its third definition:
3 : a solemn appeal : adjuration
The word "aduration" has as its definitions:
1 : a solemn oath
2 : an earnest urging or advising
So, it appears the term necromancy is appropriate for the RC practice of praying to Saints and Mary - at least according to merriamwebster.com
_____________________________
“beware lest you lose the substance by grasping at the shadow”
|
|
|
|
|
RE: Praying to the Saints & Mary? - 9/16/2008 9:05:31 AM
|
|
|
2Preacher
Posts: 142
Joined: 2/7/2008
Status: offline
|
Ok, Kelman:
I concede the point. But try to convince the Catholics that are here of that?
They have said that they do not practice necromancy. I find it very difficult to prove a point when some one is stubbornly convinced (and I mean that in the same way I would say it about myself) that they are correct.
I appreciate your willingness to be accurate in defining terms. I also, believe that there is a reason why God has said that we are ONLY to pray to HIM and ONLY to pray in Jesus name expecting an answer. It is because God ALONE is ultimate Holiness, righteousness and purity. Man, on the other hand is totally sinful and depraved. Therefore, man cannot in and of himself, approach God in prayer or any other way.
The only way for Man to approach God in the OT was through the Blood of the sacrifice. Likewise, the only way for man to approach God in the NT is through the Blood of Christ, but there is a difference. Christ sacrifice was the ULTIMATE sacrifice for sin i.e. a perfect, complete, holy, righteous sacrifice, OFFERED ONLY ONE TIME never to be repeated. "It is finished!!!!!"
Secondly, it is different because Christ is called the "new and living way" to God. It is said of Christ, following the resurrection, that he "ever liveth to make intercession" for us with the Father. Jesus Christ is the only one in Scripture about which this statement is made. It is by him and through him alone that Man is able to approach the throne of God in Heaven.
Catholics, by their own admission believe that Mary is sinless along with Christ. I disagree. Mary is totally human. She had a human mother and father therefore she was a sinner just like the rest of us. She cannot therefore approach God any more than we can with out a "go between".
Christ alone is that "go between" and since believers belong to him, we can go directly to God through HIM without any assistance from any saint.
2Preacher
_____________________________
"Let the words of my mouth, and the meditation of my heart be acceptable in thy sight, O Lord, my strength and my redeemer." Psalm 19:14
|
|
|
|
|
RE: Praying to the Saints & Mary? - 9/16/2008 11:49:43 AM
|
|
|
martyfran
Posts: 566
Joined: 7/17/2005
Status: online
|
quote:
ORIGINAL: 2Preacher
we can go directly to God through HIM without any assistance from any saint.
2Preacher
Of course nobody is required to ask a saint to pray for him. If you are going to ask why Catholics would ask a saint to pray for them, when they can go right to Jesus, you would have to ask the same of your fellow church members: "why do you ask someone to pray for you, when you could spend that same effort going directly to Jesus?".
|
|
|
|
|
RE: Praying to the Saints & Mary? - 9/16/2008 1:43:07 PM
|
|
|
2Preacher
Posts: 142
Joined: 2/7/2008
Status: offline
|
Martyfran:
I am sorry, but I don't see asking a living, breathing person whom I can see to pray for me as being the same thing as praying to those who have physically died whether they be the saints or Mary and asking for their "help".
It just does not make sense to me. Not that the saints in heaven are not alive or do not pray, but that the Scriptures indicate that they are no longer involved in what goes on down here on earth or concerned with it. Read Ecclesiastes 9:1-6.
I do ask my living friends to pray for me and I believe that they do. I do the same for them. But when I pray I talk directly to God my father, just as I do my earthly father. I pray as he has commanded in his Word for me to pray. I pray in the name of Jesus Christ my Savior, with faith believing that God is there and will answer my prayers.
I cannot do something which I believe is unscriptural and remain faithful to the Word of God and my Lord Jesus. Therefore, I do not pray to saints or Mary which I believe is an unscriptural practice.
I don't believe that it is necromancy in the sense that Fortune tellers use it. I do believe that it is communication with the dead which is otherwise condemned in Scripture. I do believe that it is a form of idolatry because of the types of prayers that are offered and the wording of those prayers which offers adoration, glory, praise, and commitment from the suppliants to the saint - things which should ONLY be offered to God and his Son.
I am sorry if my words offend. I am trying to understand where you are coming from, but it is very foreign to the teachings of Scripture and thus to my mind and heart.
2Preacher
_____________________________
"Let the words of my mouth, and the meditation of my heart be acceptable in thy sight, O Lord, my strength and my redeemer." Psalm 19:14
|
|
|
|
|
RE: Praying to the Saints & Mary? - 9/16/2008 6:41:01 PM
|
|
|
kelman
Posts: 3897
Status: offline
|
quote:
ORIGINAL: martyfran
quote:
ORIGINAL: 2Preacher
we can go directly to God through HIM without any assistance from any saint.
2Preacher
Of course nobody is required to ask a saint to pray for him. If you are going to ask why Catholics would ask a saint to pray for them, when they can go right to Jesus, you would have to ask the same of your fellow church members: "why do you ask someone to pray for you, when you could spend that same effort going directly to Jesus?".
In Scripture we find God has made specific provision for us to do so "and pray one for another"(James 5:16). And without question the context plainly shows, James is speaking of the physically alive in the local church.
BTW, you had asked where does the Bible say it is wrong. An interesting passage which may have bearing on the subject is Colossians 2:18 "Let no man beguile you of your reward in a voluntary humility and worshipping of angels, intruding into those things which he hath not seen, vainly puffed up by his fleshly mind,"
_____________________________
“beware lest you lose the substance by grasping at the shadow”
|
|
|
|
|
RE: Praying to the Saints & Mary? - 9/16/2008 6:42:37 PM
|
|
|
kelman
Posts: 3897
Status: offline
|
quote:
ORIGINAL: 2Preacher
Ok, Kelman:
I concede the point. But try to convince the Catholics that are here of that?
They have said that they do not practice necromancy. I find it very difficult to prove a point when some one is stubbornly convinced (and I mean that in the same way I would say it about myself) that they are correct. No, concession necessary, Preacher. People were talking about definitions, dictionary and otherwise, so I posted what I found on-line. Actually, I agree with you. I don't think RC practices "necromancy" as we find it defined in Scripture.
The use of secular dictionaries is no way to find truth in the Bible. Sometimes, though, it becomes necessary when the simplest of words are denied their true meaning from both Scripture and secular dictionaries as is the case with the words pray and worship.
We see from the Bible, and in practice, that prayer is worshipping God. We also see from secular sources that prayer is an act of worship be it to God or any other being.
As for being "stubbornly convinced", I agree and pray to God that I am never so convinced of error.
_____________________________
“beware lest you lose the substance by grasping at the shadow”
|
|
|
|
|
RE: Praying to the Saints & Mary? - 9/16/2008 7:29:18 PM
|
|
|
2Preacher
Posts: 142
Joined: 2/7/2008
Status: offline
|
Kelman:
I do appreciate your kindness. I appreciate the completeness of your responses. I too, hope that I never become "stubbornly convinced" of error and pray that I am always open to discuss the truth with those who are willing to listen.
2Preacher
_____________________________
"Let the words of my mouth, and the meditation of my heart be acceptable in thy sight, O Lord, my strength and my redeemer." Psalm 19:14
|
|
|
|
|
RE: Praying to the Saints & Mary? - 9/24/2008 5:46:52 PM
|
|
|
Doghouse
Posts: 889
Joined: 8/25/2007
From: The Buckle of the Bible Belt
Status: offline
|
I noticed a book on the rack at my gym near the elliptical I was marking time on that was titled something like "the joy of praying for others" (my gym seems to cater to the evangelical types).
Apparently, it is not frowned upon across the board to offer prayers for another. So to me, it seems like the discussion is simply the validity of asking someone to pray for me, and whether or not those enjoying eternal life in heaven can hear those requests, and offer their prayers for us.
_____________________________
When someone virtuous turns away from virtue to commit iniquity...it is because of the iniquity he committed that he must die. But if he turns from the wickedness he has committed, he does what is right and just, he shall preserve his life" - Ez 18:25-28
|
|
|
|
|
RE: Praying to the Saints & Mary? - 9/26/2008 11:59:52 PM
|
|
|
2Preacher
Posts: 142
Joined: 2/7/2008
Status: offline
|
Doghouse:
I think that you are correct. The question is quote:
the discussion is simply the validity of asking someone to pray for me, and whether or not those enjoying eternal life in heaven can hear those requests, and offer their prayers for us.
Whether they can or do hear our prayers, to me, is not the real question. Whether they can "offer prayers for us" is not the real question. The real question is the VALIDITY of addressing our prayers and requests to them INSTEAD OF GOD THROUGH THE LORD JESUS CHRIST as we ARE instructed in the Scriptures to do.
The validity of the practice is, for me, a matter concerning who or what I am giving my assent as to authority.
For Catholics, at least the ones who are on this forum, the authority for the practice comes from two sources i.e. "church oral tradition" and "the magisterium's interpretation of the Scriptures". For myself, there is only ONE authority i.e. the Word of God.
One of the things that I have been unable to dismiss on this site is the apparent fact that the Catholics here down play the authority of the Scriptures on this issue while almost always, as you say, "towing the party line." To me and to my way of thinking and believing, this poses a great problem. It brings me into defensive mode very quickly and it is hard for me, at times to respond in the right way because of it.
God gave HIS Word to the church in both the written and living form i.e. his Son (John 1:14). It was not the other way around. The Holy Spirit is the author and interpreter of the Scriptures. So, it seems to me that, rather than exalting the oral traditions of men to an equal plain with Scripture, we should make the oral traditions subordinate to the Scriptures. Another words, if something is not taught in the Scripture or if our oral tradition disagrees with Scripture, we should take the Scripture to heart and ALL else with a "grain of salt" as grandma used to say.
I would rather be in agreement with God's Word on judgment day than to be in agreement with the oral traditions of my church. Agreeing with God is much safer. He never makes a mistake or misleads those who follow His Word.
2Preacher
_____________________________
"Let the words of my mouth, and the meditation of my heart be acceptable in thy sight, O Lord, my strength and my redeemer." Psalm 19:14
|
|
|
|
|
RE: Praying to the Saints & Mary? - 9/27/2008 3:26:55 AM
|
|
|
kelman
Posts: 3897
Status: offline
|
quote:
ORIGINAL: 2Preacher
For Catholics, at least the ones who are on this forum, the authority for the practice comes from two sources i.e. "church oral tradition" and "the magisterium's interpretation of the Scriptures". For myself, there is only ONE authority i.e. the Word of God. Interestingly enough, the magisterium has no "official" interpretation of Scripture. Surely, there are commentaries but these do not carry the authority of RC with them, since they are not official magisterial documents.
Almost anything that these private commentaries teach could conceivably be disowned and renounced by RC as being in error, mere private speculations, and of no authority at all.
The "unanimous consent of the Fathers" used to be one of their criteria for Bible interpretation. Except, of course, RC never said who or how many of these Fathers were to be included in the "consensus". Rightly so, since it is an obviously unworkable concept, which explains why it has never been defined, demonstrated, or proved by RC. It simply cannot be done, despite being decreed by Trent and confirmed by Vatican I.
The Bible, therefore, will apparently remain largely unintelligible and uninterpreted by RC, since no one who reads the Bible can ever really know, or discover with any certainty, what interpretation is the official interpretation of RC as expressed by the "unanimous consent of the Fathers", since we know not who they are.
_____________________________
“beware lest you lose the substance by grasping at the shadow”
|
|
|
|
|
RE: Praying to the Saints & Mary? - 9/27/2008 10:27:03 AM
|
|
|
2Preacher
Posts: 142
Joined: 2/7/2008
Status: offline
|
Thank you, Kelman. Very enlightening at least for me. I appreciate the information.
2Preacher
_____________________________
"Let the words of my mouth, and the meditation of my heart be acceptable in thy sight, O Lord, my strength and my redeemer." Psalm 19:14
|
|
|
|
|
RE: Praying to the Saints & Mary? - 9/27/2008 12:13:49 PM
|
|
|
Doghouse
Posts: 889
Joined: 8/25/2007
From: The Buckle of the Bible Belt
Status: offline
|
quote:
For Catholics, at least the ones who are on this forum, the authority for the practice comes from two sources i.e. "church oral tradition" and "the magisterium's interpretation of the Scriptures". For myself, there is only ONE authority i.e. the Word of God. There is probably a thread for this discussion.
My take on the sentence above is the error present in the presumption that the magisterium is not in line with the "ONE authority, i. e., the Word of God", and the personal interpretation of a middle-aged man in the 21st century somehow is.
Like I said, that discussion probably gets bumped to here. Clearly, Catholics are not just making this stuff up at random, and have come to the decision to embrace these practices and faith instruction after considerable personal scrutiny.
And it should be obvious that there is considerable "buy-in" once someone is sold on the authority and wisdom of the magisterium. That "buy-in" makes for passionate discussion...
_____________________________
When someone virtuous turns away from virtue to commit iniquity...it is because of the iniquity he committed that he must die. But if he turns from the wickedness he has committed, he does what is right and just, he shall preserve his life" - Ez 18:25-28
|
|
|
|
|
RE: Praying to the Saints & Mary? - 9/27/2008 4:12:31 PM
|
|
|
2Preacher
Posts: 142
Joined: 2/7/2008
Status: offline
|
Doghouse:
The question here is still based the "validity" of praying to the saints and Mary? Is it a valid practice? RC's say it is based on oral tradition and the ECF's writings.
We say that it is not valid based on the Scriptures and the teachings of Jesus Christ.
2Preacher
P.S. I sent you a PM concerning your statement in Post 4487 above. I look forward to hearing from you.
_____________________________
"Let the words of my mouth, and the meditation of my heart be acceptable in thy sight, O Lord, my strength and my redeemer." Psalm 19:14
|
|
|
|
|
RE: Praying to the Saints & Mary? - 9/29/2008 2:19:55 PM
|
|
|
Catholicandloveit
Posts: 318
Joined: 1/3/2008
Status: offline
|
quote:
ORIGINAL: 2Preacher
Whether they can or do hear our prayers, to me, is not the real question. Whether they can "offer prayers for us" is not the real question. The real question is the VALIDITY of addressing our prayers and requests to them INSTEAD OF GOD THROUGH THE LORD JESUS CHRIST as we ARE instructed in the Scriptures to do.
Instead of is not what Catholics should be doing. "In Addition too" is a much better definition of the practice.
quote:
The validity of the practice is, for me, a matter concerning who or what I am giving my assent as to authority.
For Catholics, at least the ones who are on this forum, the authority for the practice comes from two sources i.e. "church oral tradition" and "the magisterium's interpretation of the Scriptures". For myself, there is only ONE authority i.e. the Word of God.
And this is why we will never agree, you take your interpretation as correct and I take mine. Whose right, surely we both believe we are?
quote:
One of the things that I have been unable to dismiss on this site is the apparent fact that the Catholics here down play the authority of the Scriptures on this issue while almost always, as you say, "towing the party line." To me and to my way of thinking and believing, this poses a great problem. It brings me into defensive mode very quickly and it is hard for me, at times to respond in the right way because of it.
Please keep in mind that the Catholics here do believe that Praying to the Saints is scriptural based, and we are not just "towing the party line" kind of insulting that we just walk around like mindless people. Most - I dare say EVERY catholic who bothers to post here has a decent understanding of our churches teachings.
_____________________________
Blessed be Jesus in the Most Holy Sacrament of the Altar
|
|
|
|
|
RE: Praying to the Saints & Mary? - 9/29/2008 10:03:45 PM
|
|
|
2Preacher
Posts: 142
Joined: 2/7/2008
Status: offline
|
Catholicandloveit:
quote:
Please keep in mind that the Catholics here do believe that Praying to the Saints is scriptural based, and we are not just "towing the party line" kind of insulting that we just walk around like mindless people. Most - I dare say EVERY catholic who bothers to post here has a decent understanding of our churches teachings.
You just proved my point. I didn't mean to be "insulting" to you or any other RC. I have, howeer, noticed that most of you are, shall we say, extremely careful not to say anything that disagrees with your church doctrine. The church TELLS you what to believe and, as the name "faithful" implies, you do not vary from that teaching which most likely has been drilled into you from your youth. To disagree with THE Church Fathers, The Oral Tradition, etc. even when those things disagree with the WORD of God, would put you in mortal danger - would it not?
As Jesus said to the Pharisees in Matthew 22:29, "Ye do err, not knowing the scriptures, nor the power of God."
Regards,
2Preacher
_____________________________
"Let the words of my mouth, and the meditation of my heart be acceptable in thy sight, O Lord, my strength and my redeemer." Psalm 19:14
|
|
|
|
|
RE: Praying to the Saints & Mary? - 9/29/2008 10:12:33 PM
|
|
|
2Preacher
Posts: 142
Joined: 2/7/2008
Status: offline
|
BTW I am not calling anyone a "Pharisee". I really did not mean to be insulting , just making an observation from my own experience here and your posts which are full of the "teachings of the Church" but lacking in direct Biblical reference.
By "direct" I mean you only cite references where your "teachings" are implied rather than giving a place where the practice is directly stated to be valid or commanded.
2Preacher
_____________________________
"Let the words of my mouth, and the meditation of my heart be acceptable in thy sight, O Lord, my strength and my redeemer." Psalm 19:14
|
|
|
|
|
RE: Praying to the Saints & Mary? - 9/30/2008 10:08:56 AM
|
|
|
Catholicandloveit
Posts: 318
Joined: 1/3/2008
Status: offline
|
quote:
ORIGINAL: 2Preacher
Catholicandloveit:
quote:
Please keep in mind that the Catholics here do believe that Praying to the Saints is scriptural based, and we are not just "towing the party line" kind of insulting that we just walk around like mindless people. Most - I dare say EVERY catholic who bothers to post here has a decent understanding of our churches teachings.
You just proved my point. I didn't mean to be "insulting" to you or any other RC. I have, howeer, noticed that most of you are, shall we say, extremely careful not to say anything that disagrees with your church doctrine. The church TELLS you what to believe and, as the name "faithful" implies, you do not vary from that teaching which most likely has been drilled into you from your youth. To disagree with THE Church Fathers, The Oral Tradition, etc. even when those things disagree with the WORD of God, would put you in mortal danger - would it not?
As Jesus said to the Pharisees in Matthew 22:29, "Ye do err, not knowing the scriptures, nor the power of God."
Regards,
2Preacher
Is it posible that we don't say anything that disagrees with our church because we don't disagree with our church. I am the 1st to admit that I fail in following some of the teachings of my church, but it is not because I disagree with her it is because I am human.
I think too that our being careful in how things are said on this board is more because of the way words get twisted then anything else.
Yes my church and most churches tell its faithful what to believe, but my church does have a door that I am free to walk out of. And you are right I am a Cradle Catholic, and have heard about the teachings of my church as long as I can remeber, But this in no way means that I have the same faith I did as a child or the same understanding of what it means to be a Catholic Christian.
I wish you could understand that as Catholics we do not see these teachings as disagring with the word of God. We believe and have posted numerous times scripture to suport our beliefs as ALL Catholic Doctrine can be found in the scripture.
Pax,
Mary
_____________________________
Blessed be Jesus in the Most Holy Sacrament of the Altar
|
|
|
|
|
RE: Praying to the Saints & Mary? - 9/30/2008 9:13:51 PM
|
|
|
EssenceofExcellence
Posts: 13
Joined: 3/8/2008
Status: offline
|
I look at it this way..... I never really thought the idea of praying or asking the saints to pray for us was all that valid being that when I became Christian I only occasionaly went to church and mostly formed my understanding of my religion by strictly reading the Bible and other religious works and scriptures. The churches I did go to on occasion were protestant, mostly baptist. But I've recently started going regulalry to a catholic church in my area. I've found the church to be one of the best I've gone to, good people, strong faith, and good practices of faith. I really like and agree with the catholic practice to take communion at every service held. Now as of yet I'm not an official member of the church but I'm planning on becoming one. The short of it is this..... After spending some time in a catholic church and learning more about the churches practices I've to come an accepting view of asking saints to pray for us. If you look at our christian traditions and jewish traditions you'll find that saints helping those here on earth isn't an uncommon belief or occurance. Many times in the oral torah of juadism and mysticism Elijah has come and visited Jewish scholars to encourage them in their study of torah. Likewise Mother Mary has appeared to numerous people throughout history to encourage them and herald miracles of healing and cause the convertance of many non believers. Also if you look at some modern practices though they aren't biblical you'll find that both jewish and christian recent traditions set out a food offering to one of our saints to encourage a possible visit: a cup of wine is poured for Elijah on passover and the door left open for him in case he decides to make an appearance at the table, and all christians are familar with the leaving of cookies and milk for st. nicholas although most don't consider who st. nick actually was. I think it's pretty clear that the idea of saints that have passed or were taken to heaven before death intervening in current affairs isn't a far out idea. And I think of it this way, ALL christians belong to the universal church and are in the body of Christ. We are said to be one and to be of one spirit. And whether we are described as being alive in Christ or dead in Christ we are always described as being in Christ together. I don't think it's hard to believe that by being of the same spirit in Christ even those who are sleeping or those who have been raptured or assumed into heaven to hear us or know what are problems are. And as others have stated we are encouraged to pray for one another, we are also taught when one rejoices rejoice with them and when one mourns mourn with them. I think that asking for saints to pray to God on our behalf isn't as counter biblical as some would think, it seems rather biblical if you think about it. Now whether all saints are aware of us and pray on our behalf when asked or it it's just those who were raptured up alive into heaven or assumed into heaven as Mother Mary I don't know. But I have to come to the line of thought that it's an acceptable practice if done correctly. One must never elevate any saints to the level of God.
Now if you were to ask is there a direct statement in scripture that advocates the practice then the answer would be no. And if you were to ask do we have to or do we actually need to in our christian life, the answer too, would be no.
|
|
|
|
|
RE: Praying to the Saints & Mary? - 10/1/2008 11:28:59 AM
|
|
|
mcleod
Posts: 1076
Joined: 4/4/2006
Status: offline
|
quote:
Of course nobody is required to ask a saint to pray for him. If you are going to ask why Catholics would ask a saint to pray for them, when they can go right to Jesus, you would have to ask the same of your fellow church members: "why do you ask someone to pray for you, when you could spend that same effort going directly to Jesus?".
It's the same old story. One more time for you who believe in that you may conmunicate to the dead. One is alive the other is DEAD. No longer can be seen with these eyes. I can see the person whom I am asking for a favor from.
Give us a verse in the rule book where it is told that you may talk to the ones who have gone to the great gig in the sky. If that you can't do it then logic would say that you can't do it.
I will give you exsample of one who went to find a spiritulist in Israel. Found them, made them conger up Samuel the prophet. Which when that happen Samuel was even more distraut at Saul. You are told in the law books to not have that type of a attititude or thought process. If that person does do it. You are to remove or stone them to death. That is why the woman whom Saul went to see was shaking in her boots when Saul arrived. Thinking he was going to put a end to her life.
|
|
|
|
|
RE: Praying to the Saints & Mary? - 10/1/2008 11:47:47 AM
|
|
|
Zhi
Posts: 1443
Joined: 7/31/2007
Status: offline
|
The only people I know personally who leave milk and cookies out for Santa Claus are not Christians.
I am not sure you really want to get into jewish mysticism. It has some really, really weird stuff in there. But, despite all the weird stuff, even in jewish mysticism they don't pray to the dead patriarchs and prophets. It's considered inappropriate.
_____________________________
The optimist says the glass is half full. The pessimist says the glass is half empty. The engineer says the glass is twice as large as it needs to be.
|
|
|
|
|
RE: Praying to the Saints & Mary? - 10/1/2008 11:48:07 AM
|
|
|
mcleod
Posts: 1076
Joined: 4/4/2006
Status: offline
|
quote:
ORIGINAL: EssenceofExcellence
I look at it this way..... I never really thought the idea of praying or asking the saints to pray for us was all that valid being that when I became Christian I only occasionaly went to church and mostly formed my understanding of my religion by strictly reading the Bible and other religious works and scriptures. The churches I did go to on occasion were protestant, mostly baptist. But I've recently started going regulalry to a catholic church in my area. I've found the church to be one of the best I've gone to, good people, strong faith, and good practices of faith. I really like and agree with the catholic practice to take communion at every service held. Now as of yet I'm not an official member of the church but I'm planning on becoming one. The short of it is this..... After spending some time in a catholic church and learning more about the churches practices I've to come an accepting view of asking saints to pray for us. If you look at our christian traditions and jewish traditions you'll find that saints helping those here on earth isn't an uncommon belief or occurance. Many times in the oral torah of juadism and mysticism Elijah has come and visited Jewish scholars to encourage them in their study of torah. Likewise Mother Mary has appeared to numerous people throughout history to encourage them and herald miracles of healing and cause the convertance of many non believers. Also if you look at some modern practices though they aren't biblical you'll find that both jewish and christian recent traditions set out a food offering to one of our saints to encourage a possible visit: a cup of wine is poured for Elijah on passover and the door left open for him in case he decides to make an appearance at the table, and all christians are familar with the leaving of cookies and milk for st. nicholas although most don't consider who st. nick actually was. I think it's pretty clear that the idea of saints that have passed or were taken to heaven before death intervening in current affairs isn't a far out idea. And I think of it this way, ALL christians belong to the universal church and are in the body of Christ. We are said to be one and to be of one spirit. And whether we are described as being alive in Christ or dead in Christ we are always described as being in Christ together. I don't think it's hard to believe that by being of the same spirit in Christ even those who are sleeping or those who have been raptured or assumed into heaven to hear us or know what are problems are. And as others have stated we are encouraged to pray for one another, we are also taught when one rejoices rejoice with them and when one mourns mourn with them. I think that asking for saints to pray to God on our behalf isn't as counter biblical as some would think, it seems rather biblical if you think about it. Now whether all saints are aware of us and pray on our behalf when asked or it it's just those who were raptured up alive into heaven or assumed into heaven as Mother Mary I don't know. But I have to come to the line of thought that it's an acceptable practice if done correctly. One must never elevate any saints to the level of God.
Now if you were to ask is there a direct statement in scripture that advocates the practice then the answer would be no. And if you were to ask do we have to or do we actually need to in our christian life, the answer too, would be no.
Please believe me in what I write. That for one thing where has it been written that Elijah has made numerous appearances on this planet where our eyes can see it? It has been mention that the man appeared to be like Elijah. The manners and such.
Second where again not to make light of but if Mary was to make appearance as you have said she has made then. Why was Samuel upset with Saul for bring him back? 1Samuel 8:1-15
|
|
|
|
|
RE: Praying to the Saints & Mary? - 10/5/2008 4:18:58 PM
|
|
|
Geraldh
Posts: 48
Joined: 7/22/2008
Status: offline
|
quote:
It's the same old story. One more time for you who believe in that you may conmunicate to the dead. One is alive the other is DEAD. No longer can be seen with these eyes. I can see the person whom I am asking for a favor from.
Give us a verse in the rule book where it is told that you may talk to the ones who have gone to the great gig in the sky. If that you can't do it then logic would say that you can't do it.
I will give you exsample of one who went to find a spiritulist in Israel. Found them, made them conger up Samuel the prophet. Which when that happen Samuel was even more distraut at Saul. You are told in the law books to not have that type of a attititude or thought process. If that person does do it. You are to remove or stone them to death. That is why the woman whom Saul went to see was shaking in her boots when Saul arrived. Thinking he was going to put a end to her life.
McCleod,
I just got in on this conversation so forgive me if I repeat something that has been discussed. Tell me, what separates one from "the love of God". Does death? Romans 8 says no. So those in heaven are members of the body of Christ. Now tell me, does one part of the body need another? Romans 12 and 1 cor 12 say yes. Protestants tell me "well they can't hear us in heaven". Yet we are told in heb 12 that we are surrounded by a cloud of witnessess. Guess they haven't upgraded their technology from silent moves yet. We are told that the apostles sit on thrones and judge the 12 tribes. I guess somehow they can do that without hearing and knowing what is going on. We are told that there is great rejoicing in heaven over one repentant sinnner yet how can they know there was repentence without some form of "hearing" or knowing what is going on. Yet I have protestants tell me that basically those in heaven kind of forget about their loved ones on earth and request nothign for them. But revelations 5 and 8 indicate clearly to me that they add their prayers to ours.
Rev.8
[3] And another angel came and stood at the altar with a golden censer; and he was given much incense to mingle with the prayers of all the saints upon the golden altar before the throne;
[4] and the smoke of the incense rose with the prayers of the saints from the hand of the angel before God.
2 Tim 2:1-4 tells us that intercession for others is good. Does it somehow become bad in heaven?
Now tell me why we can't ask for their prayers?
|
|
|
|
|
RE: Praying to the Saints & Mary? - 10/6/2008 10:52:55 AM
|
|
|
1love1God1way
Posts: 2417
Joined: 5/16/2005
Status: offline
|
This wasn't directed at me, but . . .
quote:
ORIGINAL: Geraldh
I just got in on this conversation so forgive me if I repeat something that has been discussed. Tell me, what separates one from "the love of God". Does death? Romans 8 says no. So those in heaven are members of the body of Christ.
But, regardless, they are in HEAVEN.
Someone on earth, i turn around and go "hey jim, can you pray for me? thanks."
But if they are not alive here on earth, the ONLY means of communication with them is prayer.
This analogy that is constantly repeated is faulty right at its core.
quote:
Protestants tell me "well they can't hear us in heaven". Yet we are told in heb 12 that we are surrounded by a cloud of witnessess. Guess they haven't upgraded their technology from silent moves yet. We are told that the apostles sit on thrones and judge the 12 tribes. I guess somehow they can do that without hearing and knowing what is going on. We are told that there is great rejoicing in heaven over one repentant sinnner yet how can they know there was repentence without some form of "hearing" or knowing what is going on. Yet I have protestants tell me that basically those in heaven kind of forget about their loved ones on earth and request nothign for them. But revelations 5 and 8 indicate clearly to me that they add their prayers to ours.
Rev.8
[3] And another angel came and stood at the altar with a golden censer; and he was given much incense to mingle with the prayers of all the saints upon the golden altar before the throne;
[4] and the smoke of the incense rose with the prayers of the saints from the hand of the angel before God.
Regardless of whether they hear us when we pray to God or not . . . it is not the point . . . the point is about whether our prayers should go straight to them.
It seems to me that maybe they can simply hear my prayers that are offered to God and thus join in and intercede for me. I have no need to go to them directly, only my Father, and still receive the intercession.
quote:
Now tell me why we can't ask for their prayers?
Because it's praying to them . . . to the "dead." (Okay, I get it, they're "alive" . . .)
_____________________________
love.ben
|
|
|
|
|
RE: Praying to the Saints & Mary? - 10/6/2008 12:38:40 PM
|
|
|
Geraldh
Posts: 48
Joined: 7/22/2008
Status: offline
|
I've laid out specific scriptural reasons why it is not illogical to assume that we can pray asking them for their intercession before the throne of God and why protestant claims that they can't hear us and they don't know what is going on and they forget about their relatives down here don't hold. What you want is an explicit passage that says to ask for such prayers. When you give me a passage that says "faith alone" is the means of justification (there is one that says it is not) or that there should be altar calls without baptisms, or sola scriptura, or the Lord's Supper is a symbol (the word symbol is never used for it in scripture) or a host of other matters that protestants believe, then we'll talk. But I see as a part of tradition that there is support for this all the way back to the Catacombs in the first century upon which were inscribed "Peter and Paul pray for us".
Why do you have any need to go to other members of your Church? Why not go to God directly? Do you deny that those in heaven are members of the body of Christ?
God bless
|
|
|
|
|
Forum Tools
Printable Version
