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RE: Praying to the Saints & Mary? - 9/11/2008 2:24:32 PM
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Zhi
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quote:
He also never said that is was wrong to ask someone to pray for you.
Those living on earth praying for other people they know personally, and vice versa, is supported and even encouraged several times throughout scripture.
Those living on earth praying to the dead is at best never mentioned, at worst expressly prohibited in scripture.
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RE: Praying to the Saints & Mary? - 9/11/2008 2:49:49 PM
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martyfran
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Zhi
quote:
He also never said that is was wrong to ask someone to pray for you.
Those living on earth praying for other people they know personally, and vice versa, is supported and even encouraged several times throughout scripture.
Those living on earth praying to the dead is at best never mentioned, at worst expressly prohibited in scripture.
Please show me where asking a saint who is alive in heaven is prohibited in scripture.
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RE: Praying to the Saints & Mary? - 9/11/2008 3:25:58 PM
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Zhi
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quote:
Please show me where asking a saint who is alive in heaven is prohibited in scripture.
Saul's contact of Samuel after the prophet's death was considered a very, very bad thing. That could indicate precedence.
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The optimist says the glass is half full. The pessimist says the glass is half empty. The engineer says the glass is twice as large as it needs to be.
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RE: Praying to the Saints & Mary? - 9/11/2008 3:51:34 PM
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martyfran
Posts: 566
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Zhi
quote:
Please show me where asking a saint who is alive in heaven is prohibited in scripture.
Saul's contact of Samuel after the prophet's death was considered a very, very bad thing. That could indicate precedence.
If you are talking about necromancy, it has already been established on this thread that praying to the saints is not necromancy.
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RE: Praying to the Saints & Mary? - 9/11/2008 4:20:23 PM
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Zhi
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Considering that all reference to prayer "for each other" in the Scripture clearly indicates that the intercession goes both ways, then it's a little hard to escape that eventuality. So, we're back to either it not being indicated at all by Scripture, or that it's viewed solely in a forbidden context. As I said previously.
_____________________________
The optimist says the glass is half full. The pessimist says the glass is half empty. The engineer says the glass is twice as large as it needs to be.
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RE: Praying to the Saints & Mary? - 9/11/2008 4:21:24 PM
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Fritzpw_Admin
Posts: 7663
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quote:
ORIGINAL: martyfran
quote:
ORIGINAL: Zhi
quote:
Please show me where asking a saint who is alive in heaven is prohibited in scripture.
Saul's contact of Samuel after the prophet's death was considered a very, very bad thing. That could indicate precedence.
If you are talking about necromancy, it has already been established on this thread that praying to the saints is not necromancy.
Correction, the Catholics have established that praying to the saints is not necromancy.
This has not been agreed upon by all the other participants.
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RE: Praying to the Saints & Mary? - 9/11/2008 8:58:54 PM
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gatolover
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Zhi,
quote:
Connsidering that all reference to prayer "for each other" in the Scripture clearly indicates that the intercession goes both ways, then it's a little hard to escape that eventuality.
Curious what you are talking about. Please post references.
quote:
So, we're back to either it not being indicated at all by Scripture, or that it's viewed solely in a forbidden context. As I said previously.
Or, on the other hand, it was doctrine taught by the early Church and was important enough to include in the earliest Creed; i.e., "I believe in the Communion of Saints....."
FYI, the physically deceased in Christ are not "dead."
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RE: Praying to the Saints & Mary? - 9/11/2008 9:24:38 PM
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Ps103
Posts: 11697
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Definition of necromancy:
quote:
American Heritage Dictionary - Cite This Source nec¡¤ro¡¤man¡¤cy (n¨§k'rə-m¨¡n's¨¥) Pronunciation Key
n.
1. The practice of supposedly communicating with the spirits of the dead in order to predict the future.
2. Black magic; sorcery.
3. Magic qualities.
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RE: Praying to the Saints & Mary? - 9/11/2008 9:29:28 PM
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Doghouse
Posts: 889
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quote:
Please don't take this the wrong way, but if "Catholics come at these prayers with a belief, knowledge and context that the communion of Saints and intercessory prayers are as they are taught in the Church." and this is the only way they view them, then why do the prayers say the things they say? Many of the prayers were authored in one language, translated to Latin, and then translated to another vulgar tongue. If you have to translate a prayer in everything from English to Japanese to Swahili, word selection can be interesting.
My challenge back is - why interpret the prayer one word at a time, like an attorney reviewing a personal services contract? Why not step back a minute, take a deep breath, and ponder the prayer in its entirety?
quote:
In praying these prayers (i.e. like the one to Joseph and Mary) the suppliant is doing more than "asking" as in making a prayer request. I say that based only on the words of the prayers themselves. I don't see it that way, and I attempted a dissection of the Joseph prayer above. When we see words like "obtain for us", we have to understand the context in which those words are framed. I can obtain a glass of drinking water from the kitchen by getting myself off the couch and going to the tap, or by asking my wife to get me a glass (..."while you're up, dear..."). Within the phrase "obtain a glass of drinking water", you can't tell how it was done, but you might guess from the context that I am thirsty (or that I just set the couch on fire...)
quote:
At one time, I owned a Catholic prayer book. ...and I, as a life long Catholic, own no prayer books. I prefer to compose and construct my own prayers, as well as acts of contrition for confession, etc. Some people don't and I applaud their prayer, even if they use a prayer book to help them express their needs.
quote:
The one thing that I noticed about this prayer book was that the prayers LEFT NO ROOM FOR THE INDIVIDUALITY OF THE SUPPLIANT. What were you expecting - "I (state your name) ask you, God, in your infinite mercy and just judgment, to...". Like I said - I own no prayer books. I don't feel like I've ever needed them.
quote:
Jesus was addressing the prayer habits of his disciples in Matthew 6. He called "vain repetitions" a "heathen" practice. I Think everyone agrees with this. Even though we might use a prayer book, we should ponder what we are reading. The efficacy of the prayer lies in the state of the heart, not the mantra of the syllables...
I interpret "vain" here as lacking substance or worth, as in "vain conversation".
quote:
If prayers to the saints are to be practiced why is this the case? If it is Scriptural, why is there no recorded case of any one practicing this in the Scriptures? I believe this descends from your particular definition of "prayer". Prayer is simply a request ("Your honor, I pray the court dismisses all charges on the grounds of lack of evidence). Paul asked for the prayers and supplications of the faithful - he prayed for their prayers. Catholics belive that the prayers of the faithful join with the prayers of the Saints (see Revelations), because our causes are the same, if they are Christian causes. Therefore - praying for victory for your football team is vain prayer; as the Saints are likely not praying for one team or another. Praying that nobody on either side gets hurt while playing is probably more along the lines of an efficacious prayer, who's cause might indeed be taken up with the prayers of the Saints for the same cause.
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Other than the Lord's prayer But...when you say the Lord's prayer, you say it like it was the first time you ever said it. You ponder and reflect upon the words and envision what it is requesting. You don't just rattle it off with the crowd, while you wonder what's on the Sunday lunch buffet at the local restaurant...
That's the difference between vain prayer and effective prayer.
quote:
I am not attacking your beliefs only trying to understand them. And I appreciate this, and I am trying to explain it to you.
Think about this for a second. Who is the prayer really for? If God is both omniscient, and omnipotent, why does He need to hear our prayer? In His omniscience, He knows exactly what we require, and in His omnipotence is in a position to grant it.
Isn't the prayer really for us? Isn't it for us to work out what we are feeling and how we are dealing with what God has handed us? Isn't the prayer a time to reflect and doesn't it provide a moment of introspection to examine and attempt to discern God's will for us, in the cards He has chosen to deal us?
Do you think you can get God to give you something different than what He has already decided you needed, just because you asked? Or, in the asking, do you seek to comprehend what He has given you, and discern His direction and His will for you, given what He has provided?
I suggest to you that understanding the Sovereignty of God over us in all matters is to move from the prayers of a child to the prayers of an adult.
_____________________________
When someone virtuous turns away from virtue to commit iniquity...it is because of the iniquity he committed that he must die. But if he turns from the wickedness he has committed, he does what is right and just, he shall preserve his life" - Ez 18:25-28
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RE: Praying to the Saints & Mary? - 9/11/2008 9:33:45 PM
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Zhi
Posts: 1443
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quote:
Curious what you are talking about. Please post references.
We've mentioned this verse quite a bit, but here you go:
James 5:16 Therefore, confess your sins to one another, and pray for one another so that you may be healed. The effective prayer of a righteous man can accomplish much.
quote:
Or, on the other hand, it was doctrine taught by the early Church and was important enough to include in the earliest Creed; i.e., "I believe in the Communion of Saints....."
There is no indication that the Nicene Creed expects saints that have already gone home to Glory can see, hear, or do anything for us. You do realize that "saint" was another word for "believer in Christ" throughout the NT, right?
_____________________________
The optimist says the glass is half full. The pessimist says the glass is half empty. The engineer says the glass is twice as large as it needs to be.
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RE: Praying to the Saints & Mary? - 9/11/2008 9:33:58 PM
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2Preacher
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From what I have seen in the posts on this thread, when Catholics refer to "the Saints" they are referring to a "special" group of Christians who have been elevated to sainthood by the church. Christians on earth are NOT saints in this view. Am I correct ?
If so, then answer me this, to whom was Paul the Apostle addressing his letters when he addressed them as follows:
Eph 1:1 ¶ Paul, an apostle of Jesus Christ by the will of God, to the saints which are at Ephesus, and to the faithful in Christ Jesus:
Col 1:2 To the saints and faithful brethren in Christ which are at Colosse: Grace be unto you, and peace, from God our Father and the Lord Jesus Christ.
To whom do the following verses refer to when referring to Saints:
Ac 9:32 ¶ And it came to pass, as Peter passed throughout all quarters, he came down also to the saints which dwelt at Lydda.
Ro 15:25 But now I go unto Jerusalem to minister unto the saints.
2Co 8:4 Praying us with much intreaty that we would receive the gift, and take upon us the fellowship of the ministering to the saints.
2Co 9:1 ¶ For as touching the ministering to the saints, it is superfluous for me to write to you:
Every reference that I have ever heard made to "the Saints" by RC's refers to someone who is, as far as this earth is concerned, dead and gone to their reward.
If only those folks are "saints" please tell me who it is that these verses refer to? These folks, at the time of the writing of Paul's letters, were alive and ON THIS EARTH. They were not in Heaven.
I realize that saints in heaven have been "perfected in righteousness" in the sense that they are forever free from sin and death, but why would the Scriptures refer to Christians on earth as "SAINTS" if that is not what they are?
Please explain.
2Preacher
2Preacher
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"Let the words of my mouth, and the meditation of my heart be acceptable in thy sight, O Lord, my strength and my redeemer." Psalm 19:14
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RE: Praying to the Saints & Mary? - 9/11/2008 9:36:50 PM
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Doghouse
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In my opinion, anyone, who believes that what Catholics do is practice necromancy, is completely wasting their time in this thread, and should just move on...
Just an opinion...
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When someone virtuous turns away from virtue to commit iniquity...it is because of the iniquity he committed that he must die. But if he turns from the wickedness he has committed, he does what is right and just, he shall preserve his life" - Ez 18:25-28
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RE: Praying to the Saints & Mary? - 9/11/2008 9:51:08 PM
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Doghouse
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quote:
From what I have seen in the posts on this thread, when Catholics refer to "the Saints" they are referring to a "special" group of Christians who have been elevated to sainthood by the church. Christians on earth are NOT saints in this view. Am I correct ? Only God can make a Saint. All the Church does is recognize this and accept the revelation of it by God to the Church. There is usually a miracle or healing involved, and this must be documented, witnessed, etc. The litmus test is the efficacy of the prayers of the "saint" joined with those with needs. If I ask for Kelman's prayers for a safe flight, and I always have a safe flight, then brother Kelman might become my patron of flying safely, based on his exquisite track record, demonstrating the efficacy of his prayers for the cause of safe flight.
My grandmother is probably a Saint. Not one that the Catholic Church has officially recognized, but probably a soul residing in heaven in the eternal light and presence of God.
A Saint would be a fully sanctified soul. We know that fully sanctified souls, upon the end of their time in earth, wind up in heaven in the eternal presence of God.
quote:
Every reference that I have ever heard made to "the Saints" by RC's refers to someone who is, as far as this earth is concerned, dead and gone to their reward.
If only those folks are "saints" please tell me who it is that these verses refer to? These folks, at the time of the writing of Paul's letters, were alive and ON THIS EARTH. They were not in Heaven. My NAB renders these as "holy ones" - people supporting the faith and the early Church with their sacrifice and taking the risks they are taking, reflecting in my mind a very strong and effective faith.
I don't think Catholics uniquely refer to "saints" as dead. "Saints" are canonized. My grandmother is a "saint". There is really no distinction other than the fact that the Church universal would really have to canonize every one's grandmother if this were the bar.
BTW - all of this has been discussed previously in this thread about 2,000 posts ago. I am not trying to discourage you, I am simply pointing out the patience of the people here trying to explain just what Catholics believe and practice in this regard. I recognize that you were not around 2,000 post ago.
_____________________________
When someone virtuous turns away from virtue to commit iniquity...it is because of the iniquity he committed that he must die. But if he turns from the wickedness he has committed, he does what is right and just, he shall preserve his life" - Ez 18:25-28
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RE: Praying to the Saints & Mary? - 9/12/2008 12:28:48 AM
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2Preacher
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quote:
a Saint....a soul residing in heaven in the eternal light and presence of God.
Doghouse, again you have answered me with candor and honesty. I appreciate it greatly.
A Saint, then by your own words, is "a soul residing in Heaven in the eternal light and presence of God." Why do we have to wait to get to Heaven? Even as you pointed out the word translated "saints" in my KJV is translated "holy ones" in the NAB (should this be NASB????- just asking. Please spell it out for me. I don't recall hearing of an NAB? ) I agree. "Saints" and "Holy Ones" then are the same thing. Are they not?
The ones to whom I made reference were still physically alive at the time of the writing of Paul's letters. They did not have to wait for Heaven to gain the distinction in Paul's eyes. If, as you say, "Only God can make a Saint" why does the Church need to "recognize" it? Your statement makes it sound like God needs church approval when making a saint?
I disagree, but you have probably figured that out by now.
I Corinthians 1:2 addresses the letter to "them that are sanctified in Christ Jesus, called to be saints, with all that in every place call upon the name of Jesus Christ our Lord, both theirs and ours:"
Believers are said to be "sanctified in Christ Jesus". The word "sanctified" is <hagiazo> (Grk.) and means "to make holy". We are "made holy IN Christ Jesus" i.e. on account of Him. The next phrase "called to be Saints" technically should read "called Saints (Grk. 'hagaioi' or 'holy ones')" as the words "to be" (KJV) are an addition by the translators. We are not in process. We are made Saints i.e. "holy ones" in Christ. He sanctifies us!
I said all of that to say this. Since Christians are already made Saints, sanctified by Christ, the prayers of those on earth would be just as effective with God the Father as those of the Saints in Heaven would they not?
I must go for now. It is getting late. I was typing a post last night and lost track of time and before I knew it it was 1:30 in the morning.
2Preacher
P.S. I was just about to say that no one had responded to my post #4444, when looking back through the posts, I found that you did respond. Thanks Dog. I am going to look your response over more thoroughly tomorrow morning and respond. GBU and good night.
_____________________________
"Let the words of my mouth, and the meditation of my heart be acceptable in thy sight, O Lord, my strength and my redeemer." Psalm 19:14
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RE: Praying to the Saints & Mary? - 9/12/2008 10:05:28 AM
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Fritzpw_Admin
Posts: 7663
Joined: 2/28/2005
From: New Jersey
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Ps103
Definition of necromancy:
quote:
American Heritage Dictionary - Cite This Source nec¡¤ro¡¤man¡¤cy (n¨§k'rə-m¨¡n's¨¥) Pronunciation Key
n.
1. The practice of supposedly communicating with the spirits of the dead in order to predict the future.
2. Black magic; sorcery.
3. Magic qualities.
Thanks for the post.
Here is a link to even more definitions:
http://www.google.com/search?sourceid=navclient&ie=UTF-8&rlz=1T4GGLJ_en___US221&q=define%3a+necromancy
Even in that list you can see that everyone doesn't agree on the definition of the term. Is isn't any wonder that we wouldn't have agreement here in a thread.
The point I was trying to make is that, contrary to martyfran's wishful thinking, the participants in this thread do not agree on whether the catholic church is performing necromancy when praying to the dead.
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RE: Praying to the Saints & Mary? - 9/12/2008 12:07:22 PM
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mcleod
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quote:
ORIGINAL: martyfran
quote:
ORIGINAL: Zhi
quote:
One more time Jesus when ask how shall we pray? Did not tell his disciples to ask Elijah(who is died) to interven on some it. Please oh please! Let us not make outlandish words like this last ones.
Where does Paul or even your first pope(Peter) make these issues in their writings?
Jesus didn't suggest asking his father Joseph for intercession either when teaching his disciples to pray, and Joseph was certainly dead at the time (and is one of the major saints asked for intercession by RC today...)
He also never said that is was wrong to ask someone to pray for you.
But please we are talking about dead people, not someone you look into their eyes and ask for a favor of.
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RE: Praying to the Saints & Mary? - 9/12/2008 12:13:56 PM
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mcleod
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quote:
Or, on the other hand, it was doctrine taught by the early Church and was important enough to include in the earliest Creed; i.e., "I believe in the Communion of Saints....."
The communion of saints would have me to believe in fellowship with one another.. Not to forsake the assembley of with other christians.
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RE: Praying to the Saints & Mary? - 9/12/2008 1:25:07 PM
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martyfran
Posts: 566
Joined: 7/17/2005
Status: online
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Fritzpw_Admin
quote:
ORIGINAL: Ps103
Definition of necromancy:
quote:
American Heritage Dictionary - Cite This Source nec¡¤ro¡¤man¡¤cy (n¨§k'rə-m¨¡n's¨¥) Pronunciation Key
n.
1. The practice of supposedly communicating with the spirits of the dead in order to predict the future.
2. Black magic; sorcery.
3. Magic qualities.
Thanks for the post.
Here is a link to even more definitions:
http://www.google.com/search?sourceid=navclient&ie=UTF-8&rlz=1T4GGLJ_en___US221&q=define%3a+necromancy
Even in that list you can see that everyone doesn't agree on the definition of the term. Is isn't any wonder that we wouldn't have agreement here in a thread.
The point I was trying to make is that, contrary to martyfran's wishful thinking, the participants in this thread do not agree on whether the catholic church is performing necromancy when praying to the dead.
When I made my comment, I was referring to the definition posted by Ps103, which was posted a while ago and then reposted. Now, I don't recall anyone on this thread claiming that Catholics do anything that fits the as she posted it.
Since you have claimed that this idea is wishful thinking. I think it is incumbent on you to provide the evidence. Where has someone claimed that Catholics pray to saints to predict the future? to practice black magic or sorcery?
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RE: Praying to the Saints & Mary? - 9/12/2008 1:55:24 PM
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2Preacher
Posts: 142
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quote:
ORIGINAL: mcleod
quote:
Or, on the other hand, it was doctrine taught by the early Church and was important enough to include in the earliest Creed; i.e., "I believe in the Communion of Saints....."
The communion of saints would have me to believe in fellowship with one another.. Not to forsake the assembley of with other christians.
I agree with you here. "The communion of Saints ...." to me is in the context of Hebrews 10:25 which states " Not forsaking the assembling of ourselves together, as the manner of some is; but exhorting one another: and so much the more, as ye see the day approaching."
Reading the context of the passage from the verses before it we see that the "communion of Saints" has to more to do with fellowship with those who are alive on earth than it does with those who have passed on to Heaven.
The text reads:
"19 ¶ Having therefore, brethren, boldness to enter into the holiest by the blood of Jesus,
20 By a new and living way, which he hath consecrated for us, through the veil, that is to say, his flesh;
21 And having an high priest over the house of God;
22 Let us draw near with a true heart in full assurance of faith, having our hearts sprinkled from an evil conscience, and our bodies washed with pure water.
23 Let us hold fast the profession of our faith without wavering; (for he is faithful that promised;)
24 And let us consider one another to provoke unto love and to good works:
25 Not forsaking the assembling of ourselves together, as the manner of some is; but exhorting one another: and so much the more, as ye see the day approaching."
Notice that it is by Christ Jesus that we enter into the "holiest" place where God himself dwells. It is through his Blood that we enter. No where in this passage is it mentioned that we enter into God's presence by the assistance of anyone else, not the saints, not Mary, not Joseph. It is only through Christ.
The "communion" we have with each other as Saints i.e. Hagaioi, those made holy in Christ Jesus, is seen in verses 24-25.
1. We are to "consider one another to provoke unto love and to good works." v. 24 i.e. encourage one another in living the Christian life.
This is impossible to do for those who have died. We can be encouraged by their EXAMPLES as recorded in Scripture, but we cannot encourage them. Thus this phrase can only apply to Living people on earth.
2. "Not forsaking the assembling of ourselves together, as the manner of some is; but exhorting one another: and so much the more, as ye see the day approaching." i.e. Christians are to meet regularly with each other for the purpose of encouragement and support. The last phrase of the verse "and so much the more as you see the day approaching." refers to the soon return of the Lord Jesus.
Those who have passed on to Heaven, cannot and do not "assemble" themselves with us here on earth. Therefore, this statement, if taken as a reference to a mystical union of some sort, is impossible to carry out. The only meaning that it can have is in reference to the assembly of believers here on earth with each other.
2Preacher
_____________________________
"Let the words of my mouth, and the meditation of my heart be acceptable in thy sight, O Lord, my strength and my redeemer." Psalm 19:14
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RE: Praying to the Saints & Mary? - 9/12/2008 2:04:30 PM
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Zhi
Posts: 1443
Joined: 7/31/2007
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I'm not sure why we're fighting over the word necromancy. It's just a word, and I didn't even use it.
The question is what God thinks of humans attempting to initiate contact with humans who have died. There are very limited instances listed in the Bible, and the results are unfortunate.
_____________________________
The optimist says the glass is half full. The pessimist says the glass is half empty. The engineer says the glass is twice as large as it needs to be.
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RE: Praying to the Saints & Mary? - 9/12/2008 2:15:06 PM
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Ps103
Posts: 11697
Joined: 4/16/2005
From: Here, now
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Fritzpw_Admin
quote:
ORIGINAL: Ps103
Definition of necromancy:
quote:
American Heritage Dictionary - Cite This Source nec¡¤ro¡¤man¡¤cy (n¨§k'rə-m¨¡n's¨¥) Pronunciation Key
n.
1. The practice of supposedly communicating with the spirits of the dead in order to predict the future.
2. Black magic; sorcery.
3. Magic qualities.
Thanks for the post.
Here is a link to even more definitions:
http://www.google.com/search?sourceid=navclient&ie=UTF-8&rlz=1T4GGLJ_en___US221&q=define%3a+necromancy
Even in that list you can see that everyone doesn't agree on the definition of the term. Is isn't any wonder that we wouldn't have agreement here in a thread.
The point I was trying to make is that, contrary to martyfran's wishful thinking, the participants in this thread do not agree on whether the catholic church is performing necromancy when praying to the dead.
It wasn't Martyfran's fault, it was mine. I take responsibility for that, as I proposed we define the term over a year ago and used that definition.
But you are right--when two "sides" discuss anything, if they do not agree on the definition of terms, the discussion is not going to go anywhere. That is why I was trying to get an agreement on the term. Every definition I can find refers to "divination," which is fortune-telling, seeing the future. Every definition seems to agree on that point.
That was what Saul was doing at Endor--no question. He wanted to know the outcome of the battle.
I have not seen anyone on this thread encourage such.
Therefore, it seems to me that discussion of necromancy for purposes of this thread are moot, but it may just be me  .
But regardless, it was not Marty that had the wishful thinking, it was me.
And hope spings eternal... 
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RE: Praying to the Saints & Mary? - 9/12/2008 2:18:08 PM
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Fritzpw_Admin
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Sorry, I guess drop the wishful thinking part.
I'm not sure which definition we should go with as each definition is very partial to the side depending on their take on the whole matter of praying to the Saints.
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RE: Praying to the Saints & Mary? - 9/12/2008 3:00:49 PM
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Doghouse
Posts: 889
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From: The Buckle of the Bible Belt
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quote:
A Saint, then by your own words, is "a soul residing in Heaven in the eternal light and presence of God." If you'll read down my post a little further, I said a saint (small "s") is a sanctified soul. Whether that soul be walking around on earth, whether that soul be in heaven, and whether or not that soul has been revealed to the Church as such (and thereby "Canonized" and becoming a "S" Saint...) doesn't have anything to do with it.
"Saint" is a subset of "saints" where "Saint" has been revealed to the Church as being a "Saint", and a "saint" is all the others.
Just to clarify...
quote:
Believers are said to be "sanctified in Christ Jesus". The word "sanctified" is <hagiazo> (Grk.) and means "to make holy". We are "made holy IN Christ Jesus" i.e. on account of Him. The next phrase "called to be Saints" technically should read "called Saints (Grk. 'hagaioi' or 'holy ones')" as the words "to be" (KJV) are an addition by the translators. We are not in process. We are made Saints i.e. "holy ones" in Christ. He sanctifies us! "called to be Saints" is future perfect tense, is it not? This is how it has to be translated in English to refelect the future perfect tense of the Greek, is it not? We are not called saints, we ARE called to be saints. This is what we are asked of by our belief in and acceptance of grace.
quote:
Since Christians are already made Saints, sanctified by Christ, the prayers of those on earth would be just as effective with God the Father as those of the Saints in Heaven would they not? This gets back to previous discussions about the responsibility to ANSWER the call; that grace has to be accepted, that it is resistable, and that sin is the result of the faithful rejecting this call, at times in their lives. Faith justifies, grace sanctifies, and grace is incompatible in the soul with sin (a fully sanctified soul cannot sin, and a partially sanctified one rejects the grace that is present by the selection of sin, and must deal with that sin, in order to begin restoring the grace rejected by the sin choice...).
That discussion winds up getting spread over a couple of different threads...and is an interesting one.
quote:
I must go for now. It is getting late. I was typing a post last night and lost track of time and before I knew it it was 1:30 in the morning. ...get some sleep, man...I thought I was the only one who did that kind of thing...
This can get under your skin, passionate discussions with other people who are passionate about God and Jesus...pretty cool, even if some of us are Catholics...
< Message edited by Doghouse -- 9/12/2008 3:19:33 PM >
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When someone virtuous turns away from virtue to commit iniquity...it is because of the iniquity he committed that he must die. But if he turns from the wickedness he has committed, he does what is right and just, he shall preserve his life" - Ez 18:25-28
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RE: Praying to the Saints & Mary? - 9/12/2008 3:03:03 PM
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Zhi
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From what I understand, Saul called up Samuel in an attempt to gain intercession. After all, if you read the story, first Saul attempted to talk to the Lord, asking for help and advice with his Philistine problem, hoping for dreams. When that didn't happen, he consulted the prophets. When they couldn't tell him anything, he consulted the Urim (the thing the High Priest carried around and used to determine God's will). Note that he is not stated as being wrong in ANY of these attempts at divination, these were in fact common and proscribed practices, shown in a favorable light throughout the rest of Scripture.
But, calling up Samuel in an attempt to get advice/divination/intercession for favor with God... he got into some serious trouble for that.
This is why it's interesting in this context... when he feels that God doesn't answer, he turns to a dead man for intercession with God... and for that he gets into serious trouble.
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The optimist says the glass is half full. The pessimist says the glass is half empty. The engineer says the glass is twice as large as it needs to be.
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RE: Praying to the Saints & Mary? - 9/12/2008 4:29:33 PM
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2Preacher
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