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RE: Praying to the Saints & Mary? - 7/25/2008 6:46:04 PM
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kelman
Posts: 3897
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quote:
ORIGINAL: TheCatholicCrusader
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I'm not reaching for straws. No one here is able to refute this simple fact:
quote:
1. Chrsitians in heaven are still part of the Body of Christ.
2. It is okay to ask a brother or sister to pray for you.
1 + 2 = 3. Its is okay to ask Christians in heaven to pray for you.
Thats it. I ask Mary and the saints in heaven for their prayers, and I know they pray for me. I know it. I don't think it, I know it.
Nope, you don't "know" at all. You can believe it, of course, but people believe what is not true all the time.
You have no scriptural permission to perform such acts. God is clear that worship, and prayer is worship, is for Him and Him alone....He will not share His glory with ANYONE. To worship any but God is to worship and serve another god.
Deuteronomy 17:3 And hath gone and served other gods, and worshipped them, either the sun, or moon, or any of the host of heaven, which I have not commanded;
Psalm 29:2 Give unto the LORD the glory due unto his name; worship the LORD in the beauty of holiness.
_____________________________
“beware lest you lose the substance by grasping at the shadow”
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RE: Praying to the Saints & Mary? - 7/25/2008 6:47:30 PM
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kelman
Posts: 3897
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quote:
ORIGINAL: TheCatholicCrusader
quote:
there's no indication they can hear you
Whoa. Back up a minute. My brain must be running slow: It took me a minute to catch the contadiction here.
Earlier you were concerned about Necromancy. Well, if those who have passed on cannot hear us, then how would Necromancy even be possible? Huh? I mean, howcan you communicate with "the dead" (as you guys love to call them) if "the dead" cannot hear you? Do you mind explaining this contadiction?
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You can't; but Satan can "appear" to be speaking for dead spirits. That's why RCs, and others, should be very careful about their "visitations" and their prayers to the dead.
quote:
I'm learning that logic has no place in this thread. You've yet to use one single piece of scriptural "logic" or evidence for your church's doctrine of praying to saints - because there is neither.
You will insist the spirits of those in heaven can hear and respond to you without any scriptural support. Why not just admit what has become painfully obvious - you guys simply made it up.
_____________________________
“beware lest you lose the substance by grasping at the shadow”
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RE: Praying to the Saints & Mary? - 7/25/2008 6:48:55 PM
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kelman
Posts: 3897
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quote:
ORIGINAL: TheCatholicCrusader
quote:
ORIGINAL: Zhi
quote:
Earlier you were concerned about Necromancy. Well, if those who have passed on cannot hear us, then how would Necromancy even be possible? Huh? I mean, howcan you communicate with "the dead" (as you guys love to call them) if "the dead" cannot hear you? Do you mind explaining this contadiction?
It's not a contradiction because I'm not insisting on attempting to talk to dead people.....
DING DING DING. This round goes to the Catholic Crusader.
Can anyone spell "Cop Out"?
On that high note, I'm outta here,
Adios
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LOL....you're not the first to claim victory while in the midst of a very great defeat...it's been done before with about as much success as you're having.
quote:
Then its a good thing that praying to the saints is not a false teaching. It dates back to Apostolic times, unlike your "Sola Scriptura" tradition of men which was invented in the 16th century. Nope, you cannot provide one passage where an Apostle, or anyone else for that matter, prayed to a "saint".
But, otoh, the Apostles were ALWAYS saying "it is written"....so, it's not to hard to figure out your statement is untrue.
_____________________________
“beware lest you lose the substance by grasping at the shadow”
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RE: Praying to the Saints & Mary? - 7/25/2008 7:21:18 PM
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TheCatholicCrusader
Posts: 203
Joined: 7/10/2008
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quote:
ORIGINAL: kelman
You've yet to use one single piece of scriptural "logic" or evidence for your church's doctrine of praying to saints - because there is neither.
You will insist the spirits of those in heaven can hear and respond to you without any scriptural support. Why not just admit what has become painfully obvious - you guys simply made it up.
First of all, I have given numerous scripture quotes, and links to more scripture quotes. So you have made a false accusation.
Second of all, if we "made it up" as you so eloquently put it, then why do the Eastern Orthodox pray to the saints? Why do the Coptics pray to the saints? why do the Traditional Anglicans pray to the saints? Why did the first Christians pray to the saints, as archeological evidence has proven?
And while you're asking for "scriptural support", where is the scriptural support for your view that everything must have scriptural support?
Here are your scripture quotes:
http://www.scripturecatholic.com/saints.html
http://www.catholic.com/library/Praying_to_the_Saints.asp
http://www.catholicapologetics.org/ap070300.htm
quote:
...the Apostles were ALWAYS saying "it is written".... Romans 10:17, "Consequently, faith comes from hearing the message.."
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RE: Praying to the Saints & Mary? - 7/25/2008 8:09:44 PM
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rcjames
Posts: 5693
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From: Oklahoma
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quote:
ORIGINAL: TheCatholicCrusader
quote:
ORIGINAL: kelman
You've yet to use one single piece of scriptural "logic" or evidence for your church's doctrine of praying to saints - because there is neither.
You will insist the spirits of those in heaven can hear and respond to you without any scriptural support. Why not just admit what has become painfully obvious - you guys simply made it up.
First of all, I have given numerous scripture quotes, and links to more scripture quotes. So you have made a false accusation.
Second of all, if we "made it up" as you so eloquently put it, then why do the Eastern Orthodox pray to the saints? Why do the Coptics pray to the saints? why do the Traditional Anglicans pray to the saints? Why did the first Christians pray to the saints, as archeological evidence has proven?
And while you're asking for "scriptural support", where is the scriptural support for your view that everything must have scriptural support?
Here are your scripture quotes:
http://www.scripturecatholic.com/saints.html
http://www.catholic.com/library/Praying_to_the_Saints.asp
http://www.catholicapologetics.org/ap070300.htm
quote:
...the Apostles were ALWAYS saying "it is written".... Romans 10:17, "Consequently, faith comes from hearing the message.."
But none of the scriptures you have give even come close to saying what claim they say.
Jesus Christ said to pray to the Father in the Name of the Son; period. And all the wishy washy twisting and turning in the world will not make Scriptue say anything different.
How can anyone call Jesus Lord and not do the things He said to do?
(Luk 6:46) And why call ye me, Lord, Lord, and do not the things which I say?
Thanks
RC
_____________________________
Just a country Preacher's humble opinion
Read the first chapter of my latest book here;
http://www.deliveranceofsara.com
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RE: Praying to the Saints & Mary? - 7/25/2008 9:37:06 PM
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TheCatholicCrusader
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quote:
ORIGINAL: rcjames
.....Jesus Christ said to pray to the Father in the Name of the Son; period. And all the wishy washy twisting and turning in the world will not make Scriptue say anything different.
I see. So asking a brother to pray for me is "wishy washy twisting and turning". Amazing.
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RE: Praying to the Saints & Mary? - 7/25/2008 10:40:37 PM
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PeterD
Posts: 425
Joined: 4/27/2007
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quote:
ORIGINAL: TheCatholicCrusader
quote:
ORIGINAL: rcjames
.....Jesus Christ said to pray to the Father in the Name of the Son; period. And all the wishy washy twisting and turning in the world will not make Scriptue say anything different.
I see. So asking a brother to pray for me is "wishy washy twisting and turning". Amazing.
The Lord Jesus is our friend
John 15:15
15 No longer do I call you servants, for the servant does not know what his master is doing; but I have called you friends, for all that I have heard from my Father I have made known to you.
Hebrews 2:11-12
11For he who sanctifies and those who are sanctified all have one source. That is why he is not ashamed to call them brothers, 12saying,
"I will tell of your name to my brothers;
in the midst of the congregation I will sing your praise."
your brother in the Lord Jesus Christ,
Peter
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RE: Praying to the Saints & Mary? - 7/26/2008 12:30:17 AM
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onerock
Posts: 20
Joined: 6/6/2008
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quote:
ORIGINAL: kelman
quote:
ORIGINAL: onerock
quote:
ORIGINAL: kelman
quote:
Bottom line for me, if I am going to ask someone to pray for me, I'm seeking out the holiest person I can find. As the Bible says: "The prayer of a righteous man availeth much" (KJV).
Further investigation of the passage would show James was speaking to people who had as yet not died and were capable of praying for each other.
Also in the very same passage of James 5:16 we are told to confess our sins to each other.
Are the saints in heaven in the habit of confessing their sins to you and you to them?
There is nothing in this passage, or in any other passage of the Bible, which would even remotely legitimize the praying to Mary or to saints - nothing.
In all of God's Word, in all of His instructions to us, we find the only one EVER prayed to is God.
Hello Kelman,
Can you explain these passages in Scripture and maintain your assertion that God is the only one ever prayed to in Scripture?
quote:
Acts 8:34 (KJV)
And the eunuch answered Philip, and said, I pray thee, of whom speaketh the prophet this? of himself, or of some other man? (The eunuch prayed to Philip)
Acts 24:1-6 (KJV)
1 And after five days Ananias the high priest descended with the elders, and with a certain orator named Tertullus, who informed the governor against Paul. 2 And when he was called forth, Tertullus began to accuse him, saying, Seeing that by thee we enjoy great quietness, and that very worthy deeds are done unto this nation by thy providence, 3 We accept it always, and in all places, most noble Felix, with all thankfulness. 4 Notwithstanding, that I be not further tedious unto thee, I pray thee that thou wouldest hear us of thy clemency a few words. 5 For we have found this man a pestilent fellow, and a mover of sedition among all the Jews throughout the world, and a ringleader of the sect of the Nazarenes: 6 Who also hath gone about to profane the temple: whom we took, and would have judged according to our law.
Acts 27:33-34 (KJV)
33 And while the day was coming on, Paul besought them all to take meat, saying, This day is the fourteenth day that ye have tarried and continued fasting, having taken nothing. 34 Wherefore I pray you to take some meat: for this is for your health: for there shall not an hair fall from the head of any of you.
2 Corinthians 5:20 (KJV)
20 Now then we are ambassadors for Christ, as though God did beseech you by us: we pray you in Christ's stead, be ye reconciled to God.
(Paul is praying to the corinthians to be reconciled to God.)
Genesis 12:13 (KJV)
Say, I pray thee, thou art my sister: that it may be well with me for thy sake; and my soul shall live because of thee.
Genesis 13:8-9 (Douay-Rheims)
8 Abram therefore said to Lot: Let there be no quarrel, I beseech thee, between me and thee, and between my herdsmen and thy herdsmen: for we are brethren. 9 Behold the whole land is before thee: depart from me, I pray thee: if thou wilt go to the left hand, I will take the right: if thou choose the right hand, I will pass to the left.
Genesis 16:2 (KJV)
And Sarai said unto Abram, Behold now, the LORD hath restrained me from bearing: I pray thee, go in unto my maid; it may be that I may obtain children by her. And Abram hearkened to the voice of Sarai.
Genesis 24:2 (KJV)
And Abraham said unto his eldest servant of his house, that ruled over all that he had, Put, I pray thee, thy hand under my thigh:
Genesis 24:12 (KJV)
And he said, O LORD God of my master Abraham, I pray thee, send me good speed this day, and shew kindness unto my master Abraham. (God is being prayed to here.)
Genesis 25:30 (KJV)
And Esau said to Jacob, Feed me, I pray thee, with that same red pottage; for I am faint: therefore was his name called Edom.
Genesis 32:29 (KJV)
29 And Jacob asked him, and said, Tell me, I pray thee, thy name. And he said, Wherefore is it that thou dost ask after my name? And he blessed him there. (Jacob prayed to the angel who wrestled with him.)
Judges 13:15 (KJV)
15 And Manoah said unto the angel of the LORD, I pray thee, let us detain thee, until we shall have made ready a kid for thee. (Manoah prayed to the angel of the Lord.)
1 Samuel 9:18 (Douay-Rheims)
And Saul came to Samuel in the midst of the gate, and said: Tell me, I pray thee, where is the house of the seer?
1 Samuel 15:24-25 (KJV)
24 And Saul said unto Samuel, I have sinned: for I have transgressed the commandment of the LORD, and thy words: because I feared the people, and obeyed their voice. 25 Now therefore, I pray thee, pardon my sin, and turn again with me, that I may worship the LORD. (Saul prayed to Samuel.)
1 Samuel 30:7 (KJV)
And David said to Abiathar the priest, Ahimelech's son, I pray thee, bring me hither the ephod. And Abiathar brought thither the ephod to David. (David prayed to Abiathar the priest.)
2 Samuel 24:10 (Douay-Rheims)
But David’s heart struck him, after the people were numbered: and David said to the Lord: I have sinned very much in what I have done: but I pray thee, O Lord, to take away the iniquity of thy servant, because I have done exceeding foolishly.
(The Lord is being prayed to here.)
1 Thessalonians 4:1 (Douay-Rheims)
1 For the rest therefore, brethren, pray and beseech you in the Lord Jesus that, as you have received from us, how you ought to walk and to please God, so also you would walk, that you may abound the more.
(Paul is praying to and beseeching the brethren to walk and please God.)
Do you now understand what "pray" means kelman?
Thanks and God Bless!
onerock
I really hope, but I fear it isn't, that this was a "joke" post.
I suppose if you enter a fastfood joint you beseech and pray the clerk to prepare you a WHOPPER.....lol
Come on guys, get a grip. You simply have no scriptural support for prayer to anyone but God. Prayer is worship and God alone is worthy of worship AND prayer.
Regardless of the errors RC teaches, all "intentions" are brought before the throne of grace - that is what God teaches.
Hebrews 4:16 Let us therefore come boldly unto the throne of grace, that we may obtain mercy, and find grace to help in time of need.
Philippians 4:6 Be careful for nothing; but in every thing by prayer and supplication with thanksgiving let your requests be made known unto God.
Kelman,
When you say prayer is worship are you saying then that the use of the word "pray" in the biblical passages that I shared previously meant that Paul, David, Jacob, etc. were worshipping the creatures with whom they were "praying" to?
Here's some of the biblical passages again:
quote:
Acts 27:33-34 (KJV)
33 And while the day was coming on, Paul besought them all to take meat, saying, This day is the fourteenth day that ye have tarried and continued fasting, having taken nothing. 34 Wherefore I pray you to take some meat: for this is for your health: for there shall not an hair fall from the head of any of you.
2 Corinthians 5:20 (KJV)
20 Now then we are ambassadors for Christ, as though God did beseech you by us: we pray you in Christ's stead, be ye reconciled to God. (Paul is praying to the corinthians to be reconciled to God.)
1 Samuel 30:7 (KJV)
And David said to Abiathar the priest, Ahimelech's son, I pray thee, bring me hither the ephod. And Abiathar brought thither the ephod to David. (David prayed to Abiathar the priest.)
Genesis 32:29 (KJV)
29 And Jacob asked him, and said, Tell me, I pray thee, thy name. And he said, Wherefore is it that thou dost ask after my name? And he blessed him there. (Jacob prayed to the angel who wrestled with him.)
Judges 13:15 (KJV)
15 And Manoah said unto the angel of the LORD, I pray thee, let us detain thee, until we shall have made ready a kid for thee. (Manoah prayed to the angel of the Lord.)
1 Thessalonians 4:1 (Douay-Rheims)
1 For the rest therefore, brethren, pray and beseech you in the Lord Jesus that, as you have received from us, how you ought to walk and to please God, so also you would walk, that you may abound the more.
Again Kelman, were they (Paul, David, Jacob, etc.) worshipping the creatures they were "praying to" in the biblical examples above?
Hey Zhi,
Thanks for acknowledging that "pray" means "ask" or "beseech". 
Thanks and God Bless!
onerock
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RE: Praying to the Saints & Mary? - 7/26/2008 2:02:18 AM
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kelman
Posts: 3897
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: TheCatholicCrusader
First of all, I have given numerous scripture quotes, and links to more scripture quotes. So you have made a false accusation. Nope, you've yet to supply one credible passage from the Bible - no, not one.
quote:
Second of all, if we "made it up" as you so eloquently put it, then why do the Eastern Orthodox pray to the saints? Why do the Coptics pray to the saints? why do the Traditional Anglicans pray to the saints? Why did the first Christians pray to the saints, as archeological evidence has proven? Ah, I can't take credit for "made it up" it was one of your's.
It's true the pagan practice of praying to many "gods" did start early on. Precisely because so many pagans were converted that this practice of praying, particularly to those martyred, became entrenched.
quote:
And while you're asking for "scriptural support", where is the scriptural support for your view that everything must have scriptural support?
So, why are you posting - what are you defending? That's all any of us have said and apparently you agree - RC has no biblical basis for its practice of praying to saints and Mary.
Case closed, we now all agree.
_____________________________
“beware lest you lose the substance by grasping at the shadow”
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RE: Praying to the Saints & Mary? - 7/26/2008 2:03:53 AM
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kelman
Posts: 3897
Status: offline
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quote:
When you say prayer is worship are you saying then that the use of the word "pray" in the biblical passages that I shared previously meant that Paul, David, Jacob, etc. were worshipping the creatures with whom they were "praying" to?
These posts are simply so preposterous they really do not deserve a response. So, I'll simply repeat:
I really hope, but I fear it isn't, that this was a "joke" post.
I suppose if you enter a fastfood joint you beseech and pray the clerk to prepare you a WHOPPER.....lol
Come on guys, get a grip. You simply have no scriptural support for prayer to anyone but God. Prayer is worship and God alone is worthy of worship AND prayer.
Seeing now that it is actually not a joke, those who equate praying to spirit beings with "praying" for a WHOPPER; it is not only preposterous but actually pathetically sad.
_____________________________
“beware lest you lose the substance by grasping at the shadow”
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RE: Praying to the Saints & Mary? - 7/26/2008 7:44:30 AM
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TheCatholicCrusader
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Joined: 7/10/2008
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As the following passages show, the early Christians not only clearly recognized the biblical teaching that those in heaven can and do intercede for us, but they also applied this teaching in their own daily prayer life.
Hermas
"[The Shepherd said:] ‘But those who are weak and slothful in prayer, hesitate to ask anything from the Lord; but the Lord is full of compassion, and gives without fail to all who ask him. But you, [Hermas,] having been strengthened by the holy angel [you saw], and having obtained from him such intercession, and not being slothful, why do not you ask of the Lord understanding, and receive it from him?’" (The Shepherd 3:5:4 [A.D. 80]).
Clement of Alexandria
"In this way is he [the true Christian] always pure for prayer. He also prays in the society of angels, as being already of angelic rank, and he is never out of their holy keeping; and though he pray alone, he has the choir of the saints standing with him [in prayer]" (Miscellanies 7:12 [A.D. 208]).
Origen
"But not the high priest [Christ] alone prays for those who pray sincerely, but also the angels . . . as also the souls of the saints who have already fallen asleep" (Prayer 11 [A.D. 233]).
Cyprian of Carthage
"Let us remember one another in concord and unanimity. Let us on both sides [of death] always pray for one another. Let us relieve burdens and afflictions by mutual love, that if one of us, by the swiftness of divine condescension, shall go hence first, our love may continue in the presence of the Lord, and our prayers for our brethren and sisters not cease in the presence of the Father’s mercy" (Letters 56[60]:5 [A.D. 253]).
Methodius
"Hail to you for ever, Virgin Mother of God, our unceasing joy, for to you do I turn again. You are the beginning of our feast; you are its middle and end; the pearl of great price that belongs to the kingdom; the fat of every victim, the living altar of the Bread of Life [Jesus]. Hail, you treasure of the love of God. Hail, you fount of the Son’s love for man. . . . You gleamed, sweet gift-bestowing Mother, with the light of the sun; you gleamed with the insupportable fires of a most fervent charity, bringing forth in the end that which was conceived of you . . . making manifest the mystery hidden and unspeakable, the invisible Son of the Father—the Prince of Peace, who in a marvelous manner showed himself as less than all littleness" (Oration on Simeon and Anna 14 [A.D. 305]).
"Therefore, we pray [ask] you, the most excellent among women, who glories in the confidence of your maternal honors, that you would unceasingly keep us in remembrance. O holy Mother of God, remember us, I say, who make our boast in you, and who in august hymns celebrate the memory, which will ever live, and never fade away" (ibid.).
"And you also, O honored and venerable Simeon, you earliest host of our holy religion, and teacher of the resurrection of the faithful, do be our patron and advocate with that Savior God, whom you were deemed worthy to receive into your arms. We, together with you, sing our praises to Christ, who has the power of life and death, saying, ‘You are the true Light, proceeding from the true Light; the true God, begotten of the true God’" (ibid.).
Cyril of Jerusalem
"Then [during the Eucharistic prayer] we make mention also of those who have already fallen asleep: first, the patriarchs, prophets, apostles, and martyrs, that through their prayers and supplications God would receive our petition . . . " (Catechetical Lectures 23:9 [A.D. 350]).
Hilary of Poitiers
"To those who wish to stand [in God’s grace], neither the guardianship of saints nor the defenses of angels are wanting" (Commentary on the Psalms 124:5:6 [A.D. 365]).
Ephraim the Syrian
"You victorious martyrs who endured torments gladly for the sake of the God and Savior, you who have boldness of speech toward the Lord himself, you saints, intercede for us who are timid and sinful men, full of sloth, that the grace of Christ may come upon us, and enlighten the hearts of all of us so that we may love him" (Commentary on Mark [A.D. 370]).
"Remember me, you heirs of God, you brethren of Christ; supplicate the Savior earnestly for me, that I may be freed through Christ from him that fights against me day by day" (The Fear at the End of Life [A.D. 370]).
The Liturgy of St. Basil
"By the command of your only-begotten Son we communicate with the memory of your saints . . . by whose prayers and supplications have mercy upon us all, and deliver us for the sake of your holy name" (Liturgy of St. Basil [A.D. 373]).
Pectorius
"Aschandius, my father, dearly beloved of my heart, with my sweet mother and my brethren, remember your Pectorius in the peace of the Fish [Christ]" (Epitaph of Pectorius [A.D. 375]).
Gregory of Nazianz
"May you [Cyprian] look down from above propitiously upon us, and guide our word and life; and shepherd this sacred flock . . . gladden the Holy Trinity, before which you stand" (Orations 17[24] [A.D. 380]).
"Yes, I am well assured that [my father’s] intercession is of more avail now than was his instruction in former days, since he is closer to God, now that he has shaken off his bodily fetters, and freed his mind from the clay that obscured it, and holds conversation naked with the nakedness of the prime and purest mind . . . " (ibid., 18:4).
Gregory of Nyssa
"[Ephraim], you who are standing at the divine altar [in heaven] . . . bear us all in remembrance, petitioning for us the remission of sins, and the fruition of an everlasting kingdom" (Sermon on Ephraim the Syrian [A.D. 380]).
John Chrysostom
"He that wears the purple [i.e., a royal man] . . . stands begging of the saints to be his patrons with God, and he that wears a diadem begs the tentmaker [Paul] and the fisherman [Peter] as patrons, even though they be dead" (Homilies on Second Corinthians 26 [A.D. 392]).
"When you perceive that God is chastening you, fly not to his enemies . . . but to his friends, the martyrs, the saints, and those who were pleasing to him, and who have great power [in God]" (Orations 8:6 [A.D. 396]).
Ambrose of Milan
"May Peter, who wept so efficaciously for himself, weep for us and turn towards us Christ’s benign countenance" (The Six Days Work 5:25:90 [A.D. 393]).
Jerome
"You say in your book that while we live we are able to pray for each other, but afterwards when we have died, the prayer of no person for another can be heard. . . . But if the apostles and martyrs while still in the body can pray for others, at a time when they ought still be solicitous about themselves, how much more will they do so after their crowns, victories, and triumphs?" (Against Vigilantius 6 [A.D. 406]).
Augustine
"A Christian people celebrates together in religious solemnity the memorials of the martyrs, both to encourage their being imitated and so that it can share in their merits and be aided by their prayers" (Against Faustus the Manichean [A.D. 400]).
"There is an ecclesiastical discipline, as the faithful know, when the names of the martyrs are read aloud in that place at the altar of God, where prayer is not offered for them. Prayer, however, is offered for the dead who are remembered. For it is wrong to pray for a martyr, to whose prayers we ought ourselves be commended" (Sermons 159:1 [A.D. 411]).
"At the Lord’s table we do not commemorate martyrs in the same way that we do others who rest in peace so as to pray for them, but rather that they may pray for us that we may follow in their footsteps" (Homilies on John 84 [A.D. 416]).
"Neither are the souls of the pious dead separated from the Church which even now is the kingdom of Christ. Otherwise there would be no remembrance of them at the altar of God in the communication of the Body of Christ" (The City of God 20:9:2 [A.D. 419]).
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RE: Praying to the Saints & Mary? - 7/26/2008 7:45:39 AM
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TheCatholicCrusader
Posts: 203
Joined: 7/10/2008
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In my understanding, prayer is a "request". When we pray to those who have gone to heaven ahead of us, we are making a "request" of them. And what is that request? It is that THEY pray for US. Most Christians do it all the time, but limit themselves to making this request only of people still on earth. In this, I think their view of the Church is very narrow). You see, Romans 8: 38-39 says: "neither death nor life.. ..present nor the future.. ..height nor depth.. ..will be able to separate us...".; The Family of God transcends death. We ALL LIVE IN CHRIST.
Heb 12: 22-24 says that as we approach God, Jesus and the angels, we also approach "the spirits of righteous men made perfect". In other words, THE SAINTS. But, can they hear us? Scripture indicates those in heaven ARE aware of the prayers of those on earth. For example, in Revelation 5:8, John depicts the saints in heaven offering our prayers to God under the form of "golden bowls full of incense, which are the prayers of the saints." But if the saints in heaven are offering our prayers to God, then they must be aware of our prayers. They are aware of our petitions and present them to God by interceding for us.
Oh, and the intercession of fellow Christians in heaven also clearly does not interfere with Christ’s unique mediatorship because in the four verses immediately preceding 1 Timothy 2:5, Paul says that Christians should interceed: "First of all, then, I urge that supplications, prayers, intercessions, and thanksgivings be made for all men, for kings and all who are in high positions, that we may lead a quiet and peaceable life, godly and respectful in every way. This is good, and pleasing to God our Savior, who desires all men to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth" (1 Tim. 2:1–4). Clearly, intercessory prayers offered by Christians on behalf of others is something "good and pleasing to God"
Bottom line for me, if I am going to ask someone to pray for me, I'm seeking out the holiest person I can find. As the Bible says: "The prayer of a righteous man availeth much" (KJV).
For more Biblical references, go to:
http://www.catholic.com/library/Praying_to_the_Saints.asp
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RE: Praying to the Saints & Mary? - 7/26/2008 7:59:24 AM
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TheCatholicCrusader
Posts: 203
Joined: 7/10/2008
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: kelman
....you've yet to supply one credible passage from the Bible - no, not one.
Paul frequently asked other fellow believers in Jesus to pray for him.
Col 4:3
At the same time, pray for us, too, that God may open a door to us for the word, to speak of the mystery of Christ, for which I am in prison.
Rom 15:30
... join me in the struggle by your prayers to God on my behalf,
James asks presbyter believers to pray over other believers.
Jam 5:14
Is anyone among you sick? He should summon the presbyters of the church, and they should pray over him and anoint (him) with oil in the name of the Lord
So Prayer is the normal way for believers (saints) on earth to support one another. Probably all of us have asked another Christian, as Paul did, to pray for us when we had a need.
I believe that as we can ask a fellow Christian to pray for us, we should be able to ask prayers from the Christians already united to the Lord in heaven. If the prayers of certain Christians here on earth seem to possess special power because of their great faith witness or holiness, how much more powerful and effective might not the prayers of those of the communion of saints in heaven who are fully united to God.
And how can the Saints know and hear so many countless intercessory prayers from so many Christians worldwide petitioning them? The question is really one of knowing, not hearing. It is important for us to remember the fullness of revelation regarding our state of being after our human life is completed. Principle among scriptures revealing our future life is the revelation of the essential nature of God Himself. Jesus often spoke of His Father (Abba) and of His Holy Spirit.
Matt 28:19
Go, therefore, and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the holy Spirit.
John 10:38
...but if I (Jesus) perform them, even if you do not believe me, believe the works, so that you may realize (and understand) that the Father is in me and I am in the Father.
The New Testament speaks often of the unity of the Godhead.
John 14:10-11
Do you not believe that I (Jesus) am in the Father and the Father is in me? The words that I speak to you I do not speak on my own. The Father who dwells in me is doing His works. Believe me that I am in the Father and the Father is in me, or else, believe because of the works themselves.
John also speaks of our union with the Father and Jesus as a fellowship a word from the Greek koinonia which is translated "community" meaning "in-union-with."
John 1:3
What we have seen and heard we proclaim now to you, so that you too may have fellowship with us; for our fellowship is with the Father and with his Son, Jesus Christ.
Jesus is most specific about our final relationship with Him. He calls it a one-ness.
John 17:11
And now I will no longer be in the world, but they are in the world, while I am coming to you. Holy Father, keep them in your name that you have given me, so that they may be one just as we are.
John 17:21-22
... so that they may all be one, as you, Father, are in me and I in you, that they also may be in us, that the world may believe that you sent me. And I have given them the glory you gave me, so that they may be one, as we are one.
The Trinity is a foreshadowing of our eternal life--a oneness with the Father, Jesus and the Holy Spirit. We will share the life of the Godhead; as He knows so shall we know. The Saints already in union, at-one-ness with God share his life and his knowledge.
Paul put it succinctly.
1 Cor 13:12
At present we see indistinctly, as in a mirror, but then face to face. At present I know partially; then I shall know fully, as I am fully known.
John also had an insight that reflected our destiny.
1 John 3:2
Beloved, we are God's children now; what we shall be has not yet been revealed. We do know that when it is revealed we shall be like Him, for we shall see Him as He is.
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RE: Praying to the Saints & Mary? - 7/26/2008 9:39:28 AM
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rcjames
Posts: 5693
Joined: 7/15/2005
From: Oklahoma
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: TheCatholicCrusader
quote:
ORIGINAL: rcjames
.....Jesus Christ said to pray to the Father in the Name of the Son; period. And all the wishy washy twisting and turning in the world will not make Scriptue say anything different.
I see. So asking a brother to pray for me is "wishy washy twisting and turning". Amazing.
No, praying to dead people that may or may not be in heaven is a "wishy washy twisting and turning" of Scripture to try and accomadate man's fantacy and tradiiton.
Thsnks
RC
_____________________________
Just a country Preacher's humble opinion
Read the first chapter of my latest book here;
http://www.deliveranceofsara.com
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RE: Praying to the Saints & Mary? - 7/26/2008 9:48:09 AM
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TheCatholicCrusader
Posts: 203
Joined: 7/10/2008
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: rcjames
quote:
ORIGINAL: TheCatholicCrusader
quote:
ORIGINAL: rcjames
.....Jesus Christ said to pray to the Father in the Name of the Son; period. And all the wishy washy twisting and turning in the world will not make Scriptue say anything different.
I see. So asking a brother to pray for me is "wishy washy twisting and turning". Amazing.
No, praying to dead people that may or may not be in heaven is a "wishy washy twisting and turning" of Scripture to try and accomadate man's fantacy and tradiiton...
You argument is false, because we already went over this. I asked you, what about asking Mary to pray for you since we know she's in heaven, and you said you would not. So quit setting up that straw man about "praying to dead people that may or may not be in heaven" because you have already proven that that is not the issue.
And two more things:
1. People in heaven are not dead.
2. Its spelled "fantasy", not "fantacy".
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RE: Praying to the Saints & Mary? - 7/26/2008 9:58:09 AM
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rcjames
Posts: 5693
Joined: 7/15/2005
From: Oklahoma
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: TheCatholicCrusader
You argument is false, because we already went over this. I asked you, what about asking Mary to pray for you since we know she's in heaven, and you said you would not. So quit setting up that straw man about "praying to dead people that may or may not be in heaven" because you have already proven that that is not the issue.
And two more things:
1. People in heaven are not dead.
2. Its spelled "fantasy", not "fantacy".
Well you are entitled to your opinion no matter how unBiblical in may be.
As for me I will do as my Lord and Savior instructed us to do;
Ask the Father in the Name of the Son.
Thanks
RC
_____________________________
Just a country Preacher's humble opinion
Read the first chapter of my latest book here;
http://www.deliveranceofsara.com
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RE: Praying to the Saints & Mary? - 7/26/2008 10:01:20 AM
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AboundinginHisGrace
Posts: 403
Joined: 4/28/2008
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: TheCatholicCrusader
quote:
ORIGINAL: kelman
....you've yet to supply one credible passage from the Bible - no, not one.
Paul frequently asked other fellow believers in Jesus to pray for him.
Col 4:3
At the same time, pray for us, too, that God may open a door to us for the word, to speak of the mystery of Christ, for which I am in prison.
Rom 15:30
... join me in the struggle by your prayers to God on my behalf,
James asks presbyter believers to pray over other believers.
Jam 5:14
Is anyone among you sick? He should summon the presbyters of the church, and they should pray over him and anoint (him) with oil in the name of the Lord
So Prayer is the normal way for believers (saints) on earth to support one another. Probably all of us have asked another Christian, as Paul did, to pray for us when we had a need.
I believe that as we can ask a fellow Christian to pray for us, we should be able to ask prayers from the Christians already united to the Lord in heaven. If the prayers of certain Christians here on earth seem to possess special power because of their great faith witness or holiness, how much more powerful and effective might not the prayers of those of the communion of saints in heaven who are fully united to God.
And how can the Saints know and hear so many countless intercessory prayers from so many Christians worldwide petitioning them? The question is really one of knowing, not hearing. It is important for us to remember the fullness of revelation regarding our state of being after our human life is completed. Principle among scriptures revealing our future life is the revelation of the essential nature of God Himself. Jesus often spoke of His Father (Abba) and of His Holy Spirit.
Matt 28:19
Go, therefore, and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the holy Spirit.
John 10:38
...but if I (Jesus) perform them, even if you do not believe me, believe the works, so that you may realize (and understand) that the Father is in me and I am in the Father.
The New Testament speaks often of the unity of the Godhead.
John 14:10-11
Do you not believe that I (Jesus) am in the Father and the Father is in me? The words that I speak to you I do not speak on my own. The Father who dwells in me is doing His works. Believe me that I am in the Father and the Father is in me, or else, believe because of the works themselves.
John also speaks of our union with the Father and Jesus as a fellowship a word from the Greek koinonia which is translated "community" meaning "in-union-with."
John 1:3
What we have seen and heard we proclaim now to you, so that you too may have fellowship with us; for our fellowship is with the Father and with his Son, Jesus Christ.
Jesus is most specific about our final relationship with Him. He calls it a one-ness.
John 17:11
And now I will no longer be in the world, but they are in the world, while I am coming to you. Holy Father, keep them in your name that you have given me, so that they may be one just as we are.
John 17:21-22
... so that they may all be one, as you, Father, are in me and I in you, that they also may be in us, that the world may believe that you sent me. And I have given them the glory you gave me, so that they may be one, as we are one.
The Trinity is a foreshadowing of our eternal life--a oneness with the Father, Jesus and the Holy Spirit. We will share the life of the Godhead; as He knows so shall we know. The Saints already in union, at-one-ness with God share his life and his knowledge.
Paul put it succinctly.
1 Cor 13:12
At present we see indistinctly, as in a mirror, but then face to face. At present I know partially; then I shall know fully, as I am fully known.
John also had an insight that reflected our destiny.
1 John 3:2
Beloved, we are God's children now; what we shall be has not yet been revealed. We do know that when it is revealed we shall be like Him, for we shall see Him as He is.
.
.
No one is saying we do not ask people(living on earth) to pray for us, praying for someone and praying to someone are two totally different things.
_____________________________
Ephesians 2:8 For by grace you have been saved through faith, and that not of yourselves; it is the gift of God, 9 not of works, lest anyone should boast.
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RE: Praying to the Saints & Mary? - 7/26/2008 10:04:35 AM
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TheCatholicCrusader
Posts: 203
Joined: 7/10/2008
Status: offline
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That depends on how you define "prayer". In old English, it simply meant "ask". So "praying" to the saints means "asking" them, and what we are asking is that they pray for us, to God, in the name of Jesus.
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RE: Praying to the Saints & Mary? - 7/26/2008 10:38:07 AM
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rcjames
Posts: 5693
Joined: 7/15/2005
From: Oklahoma
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: TheCatholicCrusader
I guess that means youi'll never ask a friend to pray for you, right? Be consistant.
Oh contrare, I ask friends to pray for me all the time; I just do not cnverse with folks who have died.
(Mat 18:19) Again I say unto you, That if two of you shall agree on earth as touching any thing that they shall ask, it shall be done for them of my Father which is in heaven.
Do you not see the "On earth" part of that Scripture.
Thanks
RC
_____________________________
Just a country Preacher's humble opinion
Read the first chapter of my latest book here;
http://www.deliveranceofsara.com
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RE: Praying to the Saints & Mary? - 7/26/2008 11:02:46 AM
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TheCatholicCrusader
Posts: 203
Joined: 7/10/2008
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: rcjames
quote:
ORIGINAL: TheCatholicCrusader
I guess that means youi'll never ask a friend to pray for you, right? Be consistant.
Oh contrare, I ask friends to pray for me all the time; I just do not cnverse with folks who have died.
(Mat 18:19) Again I say unto you, That if two of you shall agree on earth as touching any thing that they shall ask, it shall be done for them of my Father which is in heaven.
Do you not see the "On earth" part of that Scripture.
Why yes I do. Do YOU see that your scripture quote has nothing to do with asking people to pray for you?
And, as usual, you have misrepresented what I am saying. I don't know why you guys feel the need to put words in my mouth. I never said that I "converse" with Christians in heaven. I said that I make my requests known, and that God will make them known. I guess you guys think God is incapable of doing that.
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RE: Praying to the Saints & Mary? - 7/26/2008 11:14:16 AM
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JesKlu
Posts: 551
Joined: 4/16/2007
Status: offline
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