quote:

Earlier you were concerned about Necromancy. Well, if those who have passed on cannot hear us, then how would Necromancy even be possible? Huh? I mean, howcan you communicate with "the dead" (as you guys love to call them) if "the dead" cannot hear you? Do you mind explaining this contadiction?

quote:

ORIGINAL: Zhi

quote:

Earlier you were concerned about Necromancy. Well, if those who have passed on cannot hear us, then how would Necromancy even be possible? Huh? I mean, howcan you communicate with "the dead" (as you guys love to call them) if "the dead" cannot hear you? Do you mind explaining this contadiction?

It's not a contradiction because I'm not insisting on attempting to talk to dead people.....

quote:

ORIGINAL: TheCatholicCrusader
DING DING DING. This round goes to the Catholic Crusader.

Can anyone spell "Cop Out"?

On that high note, I'm outta here,

Adios

quote:

ORIGINAL: Zhi

quote:

It doesn't get any simpler than that. The Coptics do it, the Eastern Orthodox do it, Traditional Anglicans do it, us Catholics do it... .... in other words, over 80% of Christianity does it

I thought we already agreed that the truth or inaccuracy of something cannot be determined by how many people support the idea.

quote:

ORIGINAL: TheCatholicCrusader
Thats it. I ask Mary and the saints in heaven for their prayers, and I know they pray for me. I know it. I don't think it, I know it.

quote:

True, but the point is - this is not a Catholic only idea, it may have started with the Catholic Church (or the Eastern Orthodox depending on your view of history) but it is still practiced by a majority of the worlds Christians. Why if this practice is so unbiblical didn't more denominations turn away from it, when they were founded. BTW Luther had a rather strong devotion to Mary as well.

quote:

ORIGINAL: mcleod
There is a difference between dead physical and spiritual dead. But that's right RCC believe everyone is going to make it to heaven eventual. So why not pray to everthing like the fallen angles or even the evil one.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Zhi

quote:

True, but the point is - this is not a Catholic only idea, it may have started with the Catholic Church (or the Eastern Orthodox depending on your view of history) but it is still practiced by a majority of the worlds Christians. Why if this practice is so unbiblical didn't more denominations turn away from it, when they were founded. BTW Luther had a rather strong devotion to Mary as well.

Probably because more denominations weren't founded on the concept that the "parent church" as a whole was corrupt and all their practices needed to be checked versus Scripture. I find it more interesting that the churches founded on the "check tradition versus scripture" concept have pretty much all decided that praying to the saints and Mary is a useless practice.

quote:

The assertion "practiced by the majority of the world's Christians" is an interesting one and kind of depends on what you mean when you say "Christians". I have relatives who are missionaries in Europe, and relatives who are missionaries in South America, and they tell me the interesting thing about those hardcore Catholic countries is the fact that everyone claims to be "Christian" but almost none of them have been inside a church since Confirmation, or at best Christmas or Easter Mass, those being the only Mass celebrations they bother attending all year. So "practiced" is a bit of a relative term.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Catholicandloveit

quote:

ORIGINAL: Zhi

quote:

It doesn't get any simpler than that. The Coptics do it, the Eastern Orthodox do it, Traditional Anglicans do it, us Catholics do it... .... in other words, over 80% of Christianity does it

I thought we already agreed that the truth or inaccuracy of something cannot be determined by how many people support the idea.

True, but the point is - this is not a Catholic only idea, it may have started with the Catholic Church (or the Eastern Orthodox depending on your view of history) but it is still practiced by a majority of the worlds Christians. Why if this practice is so unbiblical didn't more denominations turn away from it, when they were founded. BTW Luther had a rather strong devotion to Mary as well.

quote:

They may not have seen the "parent church" as a whole as corrupt but there was a reason that these other denominations were started. What made them retain this practice? Luther was a big one for scripture and yet he himself held a devotion to Mary.

quote:

So what is a Christian? I included anyone who considers themselves to be a Christian, who am I to judge another.

Sure there are Christer (Christmas and Easter) Catholics, I bet there are Christers in other denominations as well. If you said this to shock me you failed. Point being a majority of the worlds christians consider themsleves of a denomination that prays to the saints.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Catholicandloveit
True, but the point is - this is not a Catholic only idea, it may have started with the Catholic Church (or the Eastern Orthodox depending on your view of history) but it is still practiced by a majority of the worlds Christians. Why if this practice is so unbiblical didn't more denominations turn away from it, when they were founded. BTW Luther had a rather strong devotion to Mary as well.

quote:


if this practice is so unbiblical

quote:

ORIGINAL: rcjames
Popularity of a false teaching does not make it any less false.

quote:

I am always open to learning more from the Bible; so please post all the Scripture backing you have to support the practice of praying to the Saints and Mary.

quote:

ORIGINAL: TheCatholicCrusader
Then its a good thing that praying to the saints is not a false teaching. It dates back to Apostolic times, unlike your "Sola Scriptura" tradition of men which was invented in the 16th century.

quote:

I am always open to learning more from the Bible; so please post all the Scripture backing you have to support the practice of praying to the Saints and Mary.

All your scripture referrences are listed right here:
http://www.catholic.com/library/Praying_to_the_Saints.asp
http://www.catholicapologetics.org/ap070300.htm

quote:

ORIGINAL: rcjames

quote:

ORIGINAL: TheCatholicCrusader
Then its a good thing that praying to the saints is not a false teaching. It dates back to Apostolic times, unlike your "Sola Scriptura" tradition of men which was invented in the 16th century.

quote:

I am always open to learning more from the Bible; so please post all the Scripture backing you have to support the practice of praying to the Saints and Mary.

All your scripture referrences are listed right here:
http://www.catholic.com/library/Praying_to_the_Saints.asp
http://www.catholicapologetics.org/ap070300.htm

So you are admitting that ther is no (none, nada, zip, zero) Scriptural support for the pagan practice of praying and conversing with dead folks......

quote:

ORIGINAL: TheCatholicCrusader

You wanted scripture referrences. I said they are all right here:
http://www.catholic.com/library/Praying_to_the_Saints.asp
http://www.catholicapologetics.org/ap070300.htm

What part of "they are all right here" don't you understand? Go look at the scripture referrences. Thats what you wanted. I'm not here to play stupid games..

quote:

ORIGINAL: rcjames

quote:

ORIGINAL: TheCatholicCrusader

You wanted scripture referrences. I said they are all right here:
http://www.catholic.com/library/Praying_to_the_Saints.asp
http://www.catholicapologetics.org/ap070300.htm

What part of "they are all right here" don't you understand? Go look at the scripture referrences. Thats what you wanted. I'm not here to play stupid games..

Oh pleeeezzzz, all those referrences are to haveing Christians that are here on earth and alive to join in prayer; nothing about prayeing to the departed (dead) folks.

The defining verse in haveing orthers pray is;

(Mat 18:19) Again I say unto you, That if two of you shall agree on earth as touching any thing that they shall ask, it shall be done for them of my Father which is in heaven.

So please give Scripture (if there is any) taht states ws are to ask the dead and departed to pray for us.

Thanks
RC

quote:

ORIGINAL: TheCatholicCrusader

quote:

ORIGINAL: SovereignIsHe

Doesn't the idea that praying to departed folks who may or may not be in heaven assume that they are focused on something other than God? From what I have read the focus in heaven is God on a level we can even comprehend here...

John

Hmmm. Well, it seems that the Bible directs us to invoke those in heaven and ask them to pray with us. Thus in Psalms 103, we pray, "Bless the Lord, O you his angels, you mighty ones who do his word, hearkening to the voice of his word! Bless the Lord, all his hosts, his ministers that do his will!" (Ps. 103:20-21). And in Psalms 148 we pray, "Praise the Lord! Praise the Lord from the heavens, praise him in the heights! Praise him, all his angels, praise him, all his host!" (Ps. 148:1-2).

Not only do those in heaven pray with us, they also pray for us. In the book of Revelation, we read: "[An] angel came and stood at the altar [in heaven] with a golden censer; and he was given much incense to mingle with the prayers of all the saints upon the golden altar before the throne; and the smoke of the incense rose with the prayers of the saints from the hand of the angel before God" (Rev. 8:3-4).

And those in heaven who offer to God our prayers aren’t just angels, but humans as well. John sees that "the twenty-four elders [the leaders of the people of God in heaven] fell down before the Lamb, each holding a harp, and with golden bowls full of incense, which are the prayers of the saints" (Rev. 5:8). The simple fact is, as this passage shows: The saints in heaven offer to God the prayers of the saints on earth.

I think God would not deny me if I asked a friend to pray for me. And the saints are our friends, brothers and sisters in the faith, who just happen to be on the next leg of the journey

quote:

ORIGINAL: TheCatholicCrusader

As the following passages show, the early Christians not only clearly recognized the biblical teaching that those in heaven can and do intercede for us, but they also applied this teaching in their own daily prayer life.


Hermas
"[The Shepherd said:] ‘But those who are weak and slothful in prayer, hesitate to ask anything from the Lord; but the Lord is full of compassion, and gives without fail to all who ask him. But you, [Hermas,] having been strengthened by the holy angel [you saw], and having obtained from him such intercession, and not being slothful, why do not you ask of the Lord understanding, and receive it from him?’" (The Shepherd 3:5:4 [A.D. 80]).


Clement of Alexandria
"In this way is he [the true Christian] always pure for prayer. He also prays in the society of angels, as being already of angelic rank, and he is never out of their holy keeping; and though he pray alone, he has the choir of the saints standing with him [in prayer]" (Miscellanies 7:12 [A.D. 208]).


Origen
"But not the high priest [Christ] alone prays for those who pray sincerely, but also the angels . . . as also the souls of the saints who have already fallen asleep" (Prayer 11 [A.D. 233]).


Cyprian of Carthage
"Let us remember one another in concord and unanimity. Let us on both sides [of death] always pray for one another. Let us relieve burdens and afflictions by mutual love, that if one of us, by the swiftness of divine condescension, shall go hence first, our love may continue in the presence of the Lord, and our prayers for our brethren and sisters not cease in the presence of the Father’s mercy" (Letters 56[60]:5 [A.D. 253]).


Methodius
"Hail to you for ever, Virgin Mother of God, our unceasing joy, for to you do I turn again. You are the beginning of our feast; you are its middle and end; the pearl of great price that belongs to the kingdom; the fat of every victim, the living altar of the Bread of Life [Jesus]. Hail, you treasure of the love of God. Hail, you fount of the Son’s love for man. . . . You gleamed, sweet gift-bestowing Mother, with the light of the sun; you gleamed with the insupportable fires of a most fervent charity, bringing forth in the end that which was conceived of you . . . making manifest the mystery hidden and unspeakable, the invisible Son of the Father—the Prince of Peace, who in a marvelous manner showed himself as less than all littleness" (Oration on Simeon and Anna 14 [A.D. 305]).

"Therefore, we pray [ask] you, the most excellent among women, who glories in the confidence of your maternal honors, that you would unceasingly keep us in remembrance. O holy Mother of God, remember us, I say, who make our boast in you, and who in august hymns celebrate the memory, which will ever live, and never fade away" (ibid.).

"And you also, O honored and venerable Simeon, you earliest host of our holy religion, and teacher of the resurrection of the faithful, do be our patron and advocate with that Savior God, whom you were deemed worthy to receive into your arms. We, together with you, sing our praises to Christ, who has the power of life and death, saying, ‘You are the true Light, proceeding from the true Light; the true God, begotten of the true God’" (ibid.).


Cyril of Jerusalem
"Then [during the Eucharistic prayer] we make mention also of those who have already fallen asleep: first, the patriarchs, prophets, apostles, and martyrs, that through their prayers and supplications God would receive our petition . . . " (Catechetical Lectures 23:9 [A.D. 350]).


Hilary of Poitiers
"To those who wish to stand [in God’s grace], neither the guardianship of saints nor the defenses of angels are wanting" (Commentary on the Psalms 124:5:6 [A.D. 365]).


Ephraim the Syrian
"You victorious martyrs who endured torments gladly for the sake of the God and Savior, you who have boldness of speech toward the Lord himself, you saints, intercede for us who are timid and sinful men, full of sloth, that the grace of Christ may come upon us, and enlighten the hearts of all of us so that we may love him" (Commentary on Mark [A.D. 370]).

"Remember me, you heirs of God, you brethren of Christ; supplicate the Savior earnestly for me, that I may be freed through Christ from him that fights against me day by day" (The Fear at the End of Life [A.D. 370]).


The Liturgy of St. Basil
"By the command of your only-begotten Son we communicate with the memory of your saints . . . by whose prayers and supplications have mercy upon us all, and deliver us for the sake of your holy name" (Liturgy of St. Basil [A.D. 373]).


Pectorius
"Aschandius, my father, dearly beloved of my heart, with my sweet mother and my brethren, remember your Pectorius in the peace of the Fish [Christ]" (Epitaph of Pectorius [A.D. 375]).


Gregory of Nazianz
"May you [Cyprian] look down from above propitiously upon us, and guide our word and life; and shepherd this sacred flock . . . gladden the Holy Trinity, before which you stand" (Orations 17[24] [A.D. 380]).

"Yes, I am well assured that [my father’s] intercession is of more avail now than was his instruction in former days, since he is closer to God, now that he has shaken off his bodily fetters, and freed his mind from the clay that obscured it, and holds conversation naked with the nakedness of the prime and purest mind . . . " (ibid., 18:4).


Gregory of Nyssa
"[Ephraim], you who are standing at the divine altar [in heaven] . . . bear us all in remembrance, petitioning for us the remission of sins, and the fruition of an everlasting kingdom" (Sermon on Ephraim the Syrian [A.D. 380]).


John Chrysostom
"He that wears the purple [i.e., a royal man] . . . stands begging of the saints to be his patrons with God, and he that wears a diadem begs the tentmaker [Paul] and the fisherman [Peter] as patrons, even though they be dead" (Homilies on Second Corinthians 26 [A.D. 392]).

"When you perceive that God is chastening you, fly not to his enemies . . . but to his friends, the martyrs, the saints, and those who were pleasing to him, and who have great power [in God]" (Orations 8:6 [A.D. 396]).


Ambrose of Milan
"May Peter, who wept so efficaciously for himself, weep for us and turn towards us Christ’s benign countenance" (The Six Days Work 5:25:90 [A.D. 393]).


Jerome
"You say in your book that while we live we are able to pray for each other, but afterwards when we have died, the prayer of no person for another can be heard. . . . But if the apostles and martyrs while still in the body can pray for others, at a time when they ought still be solicitous about themselves, how much more will they do so after their crowns, victories, and triumphs?" (Against Vigilantius 6 [A.D. 406]).


Augustine
"A Christian people celebrates together in religious solemnity the memorials of the martyrs, both to encourage their being imitated and so that it can share in their merits and be aided by their prayers" (Against Faustus the Manichean [A.D. 400]).

"There is an ecclesiastical discipline, as the faithful know, when the names of the martyrs are read aloud in that place at the altar of God, where prayer is not offered for them. Prayer, however, is offered for the dead who are remembered. For it is wrong to pray for a martyr, to whose prayers we ought ourselves be commended" (Sermons 159:1 [A.D. 411]).

"At the Lord’s table we do not commemorate martyrs in the same way that we do others who rest in peace so as to pray for them, but rather that they may pray for us that we may follow in their footsteps" (Homilies on John 84 [A.D. 416]).

"Neither are the souls of the pious dead separated from the Church which even now is the kingdom of Christ. Otherwise there would be no remembrance of them at the altar of God in the communication of the Body of Christ" (The City of God 20:9:2 [A.D. 419]).