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RE: Praying to the Saints & Mary? - 7/24/2008 8:50:19 PM
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TheCatholicCrusader
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quote:
ORIGINAL: SovereignIsHe
Doesn't the idea that praying to departed folks who may or may not be in heaven assume that they are focused on something other than God? From what I have read the focus in heaven is God on a level we can even comprehend here...
John
Hmmm. Well, it seems that the Bible directs us to invoke those in heaven and ask them to pray with us. Thus in Psalms 103, we pray, "Bless the Lord, O you his angels, you mighty ones who do his word, hearkening to the voice of his word! Bless the Lord, all his hosts, his ministers that do his will!" (Ps. 103:20-21). And in Psalms 148 we pray, "Praise the Lord! Praise the Lord from the heavens, praise him in the heights! Praise him, all his angels, praise him, all his host!" (Ps. 148:1-2).
Not only do those in heaven pray with us, they also pray for us. In the book of Revelation, we read: "[An] angel came and stood at the altar [in heaven] with a golden censer; and he was given much incense to mingle with the prayers of all the saints upon the golden altar before the throne; and the smoke of the incense rose with the prayers of the saints from the hand of the angel before God" (Rev. 8:3-4).
And those in heaven who offer to God our prayers aren’t just angels, but humans as well. John sees that "the twenty-four elders [the leaders of the people of God in heaven] fell down before the Lamb, each holding a harp, and with golden bowls full of incense, which are the prayers of the saints" (Rev. 5:8). The simple fact is, as this passage shows: The saints in heaven offer to God the prayers of the saints on earth.
I think God would not deny me if I asked a friend to pray for me. And the saints are our friends, brothers and sisters in the faith, who just happen to be on the next leg of the journey
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RE: Praying to the Saints & Mary? - 7/24/2008 9:14:15 PM
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loco79
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I think the real question is, what does it mean to be alive with Christ? Jesus makes it clear that to be one with hime our soul must be reborn unto him. And if you believe that you are one with christ then it makes it difficult to say that we are closer to God than those who have passed away. If you are one with christ then at our physical death our soul is still alive. The moment we die does our soul go under some transormation? According to many on this site, once our soul is with God, we can never lose it. And if it is always with God, then when is its actual transformation? It is when we accept Christ.
There are many verses that go into all the intracacies of being with christ, and I like to look at what Jesus tells us directly. He tells us that once accepted we become part of hist kingdom, and since his kingdom is not of this earth, then our souls also are not of this earth.
Jesus tells us that he has but one kingom and we are all welcome into it. He also tells us that it is not limited to mans own physical limitations. Since I am part of his body, I have access to all who are in his body.
As an example, when I ask a fellow christain to pray for or with me, I am not asking the flesh, rather I am asking the spirit of Christ that resides in the individual. And since that spirit transcends the physical body, I am also able to ask all of those who have walked before me to do the same.
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RE: Praying to the Saints & Mary? - 7/24/2008 10:37:59 PM
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Zhi
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There still has to be a physical communication, though. You can't just pray for your friend Bob down the block to pray for you, you have to make your request known directly to Bob or he will have no idea.
Given that there is no Biblical support for communication with the dead in any fashion that is not expressly forbidden by Scripture, you can't just assume that it's okay.
_____________________________
The optimist says the glass is half full. The pessimist says the glass is half empty. The engineer says the glass is twice as large as it needs to be.
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RE: Praying to the Saints & Mary? - 7/24/2008 10:43:04 PM
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Zhi
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quote:
Hmmm. Well, it seems that the Bible directs us to invoke those in heaven and ask them to pray with us. Thus in Psalms 103, we pray, "Bless the Lord, O you his angels, you mighty ones who do his word, hearkening to the voice of his word! Bless the Lord, all his hosts, his ministers that do his will!" (Ps. 103:20-21). And in Psalms 148 we pray, "Praise the Lord! Praise the Lord from the heavens, praise him in the heights! Praise him, all his angels, praise him, all his host!" (Ps. 148:1-2).
As I've previously noted, Psalm 148 has a long list of things exhorted to praise God, specifically: angels, heavenly hosts, sun, moon, stars, sea creatures, ocean depths, lightning, hail, snow, clouds, storm winds, mountains, hills, fruit trees, cedar trees, wild animals, cows, small creatures, birds, kings, princes, rulers, young men and women, old men, and children.
Oddly enough, you could get permission to pray to the sun, moon, and random weather patterns from this if you wanted, but nowhere does it list physically dead people.
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The optimist says the glass is half full. The pessimist says the glass is half empty. The engineer says the glass is twice as large as it needs to be.
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RE: Praying to the Saints & Mary? - 7/25/2008 3:30:54 AM
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kelman
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quote:
ORIGINAL: TheCatholicCrusader
quote:
ORIGINAL: kelman
quote:
Clearly, intercessory prayers offered by Christians on behalf of others is something "good and pleasing to God"
Yes, it is; but, your church twists that to mean prayers offered TO other people....dead people.....
The Free Dictionary online says this:
pray (pra)
2. To make a fervent request or entreaty
http://www.thefreedictionary.com/pray
We did not make this up. One definition of "pray" is to make a request. "Praying" to saints is "Requesting" that they pray for us. Thats the English langueage. And the number one definition of prayer is:
1. To utter or address a prayer or prayers to God, a god, or another object of worship.
You are making requests of those who have died when God says we are to make requests of Him. No where in Scripture is permission given or even an allusion made to praying to anyone but God.
Since we find no evidence in both testaments of praying to any but God; yes, indeed you have "made it up".
Even though prayer itself is a form of worship RC's prayers to "others" take a decided turn into full-blown out and out worship and adoration. Many of those prayers have been posted here and frankly they are beyond shameful.
quote:
And, people in heaven are not dead, they are alive. What part of that can't you seem to grasp?
First, what part of DEAD can you not grasp? Scripture calls departed saints DEAD so take that question to God and ask what part of it He can't seem to grasp.
1 Thessalonians 4:16 .....and the dead in Christ shall rise first:
This dead/alive silliness is simply another one of RC's ridiculous attempts at defending what is scripturally indefensible. It's right up there with their "praying" for a WHOPPER.
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RE: Praying to the Saints & Mary? - 7/25/2008 3:37:22 AM
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kelman
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quote:
ORIGINAL: TheCatholicCrusader
Okay, Lets just stick with one person for a moment: The Blessed Virgin. Its safe to assume she is in heaven. Would you have a problem asking her to pray for you? Just ask her, like you would ask any friend? Of course, there is a "problem" - a very big problem. I don't ask friends who have died to pray for me. The command of God is to "pray one to another and to confess one to another". This means God commands us to pray for those who are not DEAD.
Jesus Christ led His earthly life as an exemplar for how we are to pray....why would a Christian not want to follow His example?
quote:
I think its safe to say that people in heaven know the correct way to pray. After all, they see clearly, while we see darkly as if through a glass.
I agree, those who are actually in heaven know the correct way to pray. The problem is those on earth who don't.
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When you ask a friend to pray for you, does that violate God's law? You cannot have it both ways: Rather, it is you who insist on having it both ways. Tell me, are those saints you're praying to also praying to you and confessing their sins to you? If not, you have no justification for praying to the DEAD in heaven.
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If its okay to ask Christians on earth to pray for you then its okay to ask Christians in heaven to pray for you. It's okay because God commands those who have not DIED to pray "one for another and to confess their sins one to another". God makes no mention of praying to spirits...well, no "good" mention about it.
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If its not okay to ask Christians in heaven to pray for you then its not okay to ask Christians on earth to pray for you. So, now you are telling God His commands are wrong and telling Him how better to command?
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Jesus loves it when we pray for each other. If by this you mean Jesus loves it when you pray to those who have died. I suggest you come up with chapter and verse - otherwise you have simply made an absurd claim.
If Jesus loves anything, it would be obedience to His commandments - not disregarding them. And, He has commanded we pray "one for another and confess our sins one to another". Again, are the saints in heaven confessing their sins to you? If not, then it is disregarding Jesus' commands.
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“beware lest you lose the substance by grasping at the shadow”
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RE: Praying to the Saints & Mary? - 7/25/2008 6:20:55 AM
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TheCatholicCrusader
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quote:
ORIGINAL: kelman
quote:
ORIGINAL: TheCatholicCrusader
Okay, Lets just stick with one person for a moment: The Blessed Virgin. Its safe to assume she is in heaven. Would you have a problem asking her to pray for you? Just ask her, like you would ask any friend? Of course, there is a "problem" - a very big problem. I don't ask friends who have died to pray for me. The command of God is to "pray one to another and to confess one to another". This means God commands us to pray for those who are not DEAD.....
You are putting words into God's mouth which he did not say: "pray one to another and to confess one to another" does not say "pray one to another and to confess one to another but make sure they are not in heaven". You remind me of a protestant friend of mine who quoted Romans 10:17, "Consequently, faith comes from hearing the message, and the message is heard through the word of Christ." My friend said that this means reading the Bible. I said, "It says "hearing", not reading". He said "hearing means reading." I said, "No, reading means reading. Hearing means hearing." Just like "This is my Body" means "This is my Body", not "This is symbolic of my Body." I often wonder why Catholics get accused of not following the Bible, when in fact, we follow EXACTLY what the Bible says. When Jesus says you must be born of water and spirit, that means "water and spirit". When Jesus says you must eat His flesh, that means you must eat His flesh. When Jesus gave Peter the keys to the Kindom, that means Jesus gave Peter the keys to the Kindom. You guys always deny the plain meaning of scripture, while you acuse us of doing it. The audacity is breathtaking.
And for the last time, PEOPLE IN HEAVEN ARE NOT DEAD: THEY ARE ALIVE. Good Lord, how hard is that to understand? "....'I AM THE GOD OF ABRAHAM, AND THE GOD OF ISAAC, AND THE GOD OF JACOB'? He is not the God of the dead but of the living." God is the God of Abraham, and the God of the "living". Ergo, Abraham is living, not dead. Not too hard to figure out.
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RE: Praying to the Saints & Mary? - 7/25/2008 6:31:02 AM
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TheCatholicCrusader
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Zhi
There still has to be a physical communication, though. You can't just pray for your friend Bob down the block to pray for you, you have to make your request known directly to Bob or he will have no idea....
Thats because: "For now we see in a mirror dimly, but then face to face; now I know in part, but then I will know fully just as I also have been fully known" (1 Corinthians 13:12). Bob down the block does not behold the face of God and does not know fully as those in heaven do. People in heaven are perfect: "...the spirits of the righteous made perfect" (Hebrews 12:23). To compare Bob down the block with a perfected spirit in God's presence is a poor analogy.
quote:
ORIGINAL: loco79
....when I ask a fellow christain to pray for or with me, I am not asking the flesh, rather I am asking the spirit of Christ that resides in the individual. And since that spirit transcends the physical body, I am also able to ask all of those who have walked before me to do the same.
Well said.
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RE: Praying to the Saints & Mary? - 7/25/2008 7:18:57 AM
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Doghouse
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quote:
As an example, when I ask a fellow christian to pray for or with me, I am not asking the flesh, rather I am asking the spirit of Christ that resides in the individual. And since that spirit transcends the physical body, I am also able to ask all of those who have walked before me to do the same. This is nice, concise way of putting what I believe about this practice, only to add (again) that what we are actually recognizing in the efficacy of a Saints prayers for us is the efficacy of God's grace upon the human spirit.
Acknowledging the greatness and the gift of God to His people, the efficacy of His grace and the action of it upon the soul that cooperates with it, and acknowledging the resulting salvation of that cooperation....how utterly un-Christian. Shame on us Roman Catholics and Eastern Orthodox.
While I acknowledge personal witness of people who are perhaps "over-passionate" in this practice, I don't believe that the error of a few condemns the practice for all. Otherwise - all of our Churches would be in big trouble.
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...If Christian Doctrine were on trial, the Bible would be called as a witness. The Church serves as the judge...(Acts 15:28)
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RE: Praying to the Saints & Mary? - 7/25/2008 9:18:59 AM
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Zhi
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quote:
You are putting words into God's mouth which he did not say: "pray one to another and to confess one to another" does not say "pray one to another and to confess one to another but make sure they are not in heaven". You remind me of a protestant friend of mine who quoted Romans 10:17, "Consequently, faith comes from hearing the message, and the message is heard through the word of Christ." My friend said that this means reading the Bible. I said, "It says "hearing", not reading". He said "hearing means reading." I said, "No, reading means reading. Hearing means hearing." Just like "This is my Body" means "This is my Body", not "This is symbolic of my Body." I often wonder why Catholics get accused of not following the Bible, when in fact, we follow EXACTLY what the Bible says. When Jesus says you must be born of water and spirit, that means "water and spirit". When Jesus says you must eat His flesh, that means you must eat His flesh. When Jesus gave Peter the keys to the Kindom, that means Jesus gave Peter the keys to the Kindom. You guys always deny the plain meaning of scripture, while you acuse us of doing it. The audacity is breathtaking.
It's amazing to me how you can insist on an absolute literal translation of one verse to justify you not following an absolute literal translation of another.
James 5:16 says "Be confessing to one another the trespasses, and be praying for one another, that ye may be healed; very strong is a working supplication of a righteous man;" (Young's Literal Translation)
You've already stated that two-way communication with the dead is necromancy and forbidden by the RCC.
James 5:16 CLEARLY indicates two-way communication for both confession and prayer requests.
So either you're violating your own rules regarding necromancy by performing two way communication with the dead, or James 5:16 CANNOT apply because you are not allowed to have 2 way communication with the dead and James 5:16 indicates two-way communication.
You're going to have to pick one.
_____________________________
The optimist says the glass is half full. The pessimist says the glass is half empty. The engineer says the glass is twice as large as it needs to be.
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RE: Praying to the Saints & Mary? - 7/25/2008 9:24:25 AM
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TheCatholicCrusader
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Zhi
quote:
You are putting words into God's mouth which he did not say: "pray one to another and to confess one to another" does not say "pray one to another and to confess one to another but make sure they are not in heaven". You remind me of a protestant friend of mine who quoted Romans 10:17, "Consequently, faith comes from hearing the message, and the message is heard through the word of Christ." My friend said that this means reading the Bible. I said, "It says "hearing", not reading". He said "hearing means reading." I said, "No, reading means reading. Hearing means hearing." Just like "This is my Body" means "This is my Body", not "This is symbolic of my Body." I often wonder why Catholics get accused of not following the Bible, when in fact, we follow EXACTLY what the Bible says. When Jesus says you must be born of water and spirit, that means "water and spirit". When Jesus says you must eat His flesh, that means you must eat His flesh. When Jesus gave Peter the keys to the Kindom, that means Jesus gave Peter the keys to the Kindom. You guys always deny the plain meaning of scripture, while you acuse us of doing it. The audacity is breathtaking.
It's amazing to me how you can insist on an absolute literal translation of one verse to justify you not following an absolute literal translation of another.
James 5:16 says "Be confessing to one another the trespasses, and be praying for one another, that ye may be healed; very strong is a working supplication of a righteous man;" (Young's Literal Translation)
You've already stated that two-way communication with the dead is necromancy and forbidden by the RCC.
James 5:16 CLEARLY indicates two-way communication for both confession and prayer requests.
So either you're violating your own rules regarding necromancy by performing two way communication with the dead, or James 5:16 CANNOT apply because you are not allowed to have 2 way communication with the dead and James 5:16 indicates two-way communication.
You're going to have to pick one.
FOR THE THIRD TIME, I never used James as a defense of prayer to the saints. Why do you keep saying that? YOU guys are the ones who keep tossing James around, not me.
My defense of the doctrine is simple logic, which no one has been able to refute yet:
1. Chrsitians in heaven are still part of the Body of Christ.
2. It is okay to ask a brother or sister to pray for you.
1 + 2 = 3. Its is okay to ask Christians in heaven to pray for you.
It doesn't get any simpler than that. The Coptics do it, the Eastern Orthodox do it, Traditional Anglicans do it, us Catholics do it... .... in other words, over 80% of Christianity does it
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RE: Praying to the Saints & Mary? - 7/25/2008 9:29:28 AM
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mcleod
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quote:
ORIGINAL: TheCatholicCrusader
quote:
ORIGINAL: SovereignIsHe
Doesn't the idea that praying to departed folks who may or may not be in heaven assume that they are focused on something other than God? From what I have read the focus in heaven is God on a level we can even comprehend here...
John
Hmmm. Well, it seems that the Bible directs us to invoke those in heaven and ask them to pray with us. Thus in Psalms 103, we pray, "Bless the Lord, O you his angels, you mighty ones who do his word, hearkening to the voice of his word! Bless the Lord, all his hosts, his ministers that do his will!" (Ps. 103:20-21). And in Psalms 148 we pray, "Praise the Lord! Praise the Lord from the heavens, praise him in the heights! Praise him, all his angels, praise him, all his host!" (Ps. 148:1-2).
Not only do those in heaven pray with us, they also pray for us. In the book of Revelation, we read: "[An] angel came and stood at the altar [in heaven] with a golden censer; and he was given much incense to mingle with the prayers of all the saints upon the golden altar before the throne; and the smoke of the incense rose with the prayers of the saints from the hand of the angel before God" (Rev. 8:3-4).
And those in heaven who offer to God our prayers aren’t just angels, but humans as well. John sees that "the twenty-four elders [the leaders of the people of God in heaven] fell down before the Lamb, each holding a harp, and with golden bowls full of incense, which are the prayers of the saints" (Rev. 5:8). The simple fact is, as this passage shows: The saints in heaven offer to God the prayers of the saints on earth.
I think God would not deny me if I asked a friend to pray for me. And the saints are our friends, brothers and sisters in the faith, who just happen to be on the next leg of the journey
Everything you mention was about praising not praying. Please youare reaching for straws in this matter. Notice the words in their context.
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RE: Praying to the Saints & Mary? - 7/25/2008 9:31:13 AM
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Zhi
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quote:
FOR THE THIRD TIME, I never used James as a defense of prayer to the saints. Why do you keep saying that? YOU guys are the ones who keep tossing James around, not me.
Oh I don't know. Maybe because you keep quoting it repeatedly to support your point? It's in the quote I replied to you know.
quote:
My defense of the doctrine is simple logic, which no one has been able to refute yet:
1. Chrsitians in heaven are still part of the Body of Christ.
2. It is okay to ask a brother or sister to pray for you.
1 + 2 = 3. Its is okay to ask Christians in heaven to pray for you.
We've refuted it repeatedly, you just don't like it. Your point breaks down in #2, because again, there's no indication they can hear you, AND there's no permission in Scripture to do so like there is for living people (specifically, James 5:16), AND because only God knows who actually made it to heaven (until such point as we get there and can find out).
quote:
It doesn't get any simpler than that. The Coptics do it, the Eastern Orthodox do it, Traditional Anglicans do it, us Catholics do it... .... in other words, over 80% of Christianity does it
I thought we already agreed that the truth or inaccuracy of something cannot be determined by how many people support the idea.
_____________________________
The optimist says the glass is half full. The pessimist says the glass is half empty. The engineer says the glass is twice as large as it needs to be.
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RE: Praying to the Saints & Mary? - 7/25/2008 9:32:57 AM
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TheCatholicCrusader
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I'm not reaching for straws. No one here is able to refute this simple fact:
quote:
1. Chrsitians in heaven are still part of the Body of Christ.
2. It is okay to ask a brother or sister to pray for you.
1 + 2 = 3. Its is okay to ask Christians in heaven to pray for you.
Thats it. I ask Mary and the saints in heaven for their prayers, and I know they pray for me. I know it. I don't think it, I know it.
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RE: Praying to the Saints & Mary? - 7/25/2008 9:36:27 AM
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TheCatholicCrusader
Posts: 203
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Zhi
.....We've refuted it repeatedly, you just don't like it. Your point breaks down in #2, because again, there's no indication they can hear you....
I've given you multiple indications that they can hear us. You just refuse to accept them. As I said earlier:
quote:
1) Luke 15:10: "..."In the same way, I tell you, there is joy in the presence of the angels of God over one sinner who repents." This scripture illustrates that angels are aware of our repentence, which is a matter of the heart. Angels are pure spirit, and those who have gone on to heaven are pure spirit too now. I think its a fair assumption to say that if God allows angels to know such things that He would not withold them from the saints. The idea that some spirits are aware of things on earth while others are not is implausible to me.
2) 2 Tim 1-4 says that God is pleased when we intercede for each other. Again, it is logical that God would allow those in heaven to do what is pleasing to Him, just as it is logical that the saints would want to do what is pleasing to Him. I believe that if God knows I am asking a brother to pray for me, God certainly would not stand in the way. As I said: Intercessions are pleasing to God, according to the Bible.
3) I will use a quote for the third point:
quote:
One charge made against it is that the saints in heaven cannot even hear our prayers, making it useless to ask for their intercession. However, this is not true. As Scripture indicates, those in heaven are aware of the prayers of those on earth. This can be seen, for example, in Revelation 5:8, where John depicts the saints in heaven offering our prayers to God under the form of "golden bowls full of incense, which are the prayers of the saints." But if the saints in heaven are offering our prayers to God, then they must be aware of our prayers. They are aware of our petitions and present them to God by interceding for us.
Some might try to argue that in this passage the prayers being offered were not addressed to the saints in heaven, but directly to God. Yet this argument would only strengthen the fact that those in heaven can hear our prayers, for then the saints would be aware of our prayers even when they are not directed to them!
In any event, it is clear from Revelation 5:8 that the saints in heaven do actively intercede for us. We are explicitly told by John that the incense they offer to God are the prayers of the saints. Prayers are not physical things and cannot be physically offered to God. Thus the saints in heaven are offering our prayers to God mentally. In other words, they are interceding.
source: http://www.catholic.com/library/Praying_to_the_Saints.asp
You cannot refute truth. Therefore you have refuted nothing.
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RE: Praying to the Saints & Mary? - 7/25/2008 9:37:22 AM
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mcleod
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Say TCC,
quote:
And for the last time, PEOPLE IN HEAVEN ARE NOT DEAD: THEY ARE ALIVE. Good Lord, how hard is that to understand? "....'I AM THE GOD OF ABRAHAM, AND THE GOD OF ISAAC, AND THE GOD OF JACOB'? He is not the God of the dead but of the living." God is the God of Abraham, and the God of the "living". Ergo, Abraham is living, not dead. Not too hard to figure out.
There is a difference between dead physical and spiritual dead. But that's right RCC believe everyone is going to make it to heaven eventual. So why not pray to everthing like the fallen angles or even the evil one.
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RE: Praying to the Saints & Mary? - 7/25/2008 9:39:15 AM
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TheCatholicCrusader
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quote:
ORIGINAL: mcleod
Say TCC,
quote:
And for the last time, PEOPLE IN HEAVEN ARE NOT DEAD: THEY ARE ALIVE. Good Lord, how hard is that to understand? "....'I AM THE GOD OF ABRAHAM, AND THE GOD OF ISAAC, AND THE GOD OF JACOB'? He is not the God of the dead but of the living." God is the God of Abraham, and the God of the "living". Ergo, Abraham is living, not dead. Not too hard to figure out.
There is a difference between dead physical and spiritual dead. But that's right RCC believe everyone is going to make it to heaven eventual. So why not pray to everthing like the fallen angles or even the evil one.
That is A LIE!!! We do not believe in Univeralism.
And to say that I would pray to "the evil one" is just sheer stupidity, not to mention insulting.
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RE: Praying to the Saints & Mary? - 7/25/2008 9:46:56 AM
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rcjames
Posts: 5028
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quote:
ORIGINAL: TheCatholicCrusader
It doesn't get any simpler than that. The Coptics do it, the Eastern Orthodox do it, Traditional Anglicans do it, us Catholics do it... .... in other words, over 80% of Christianity does it
Just because a lot of folks believe something that is false; does not make it a truth.
Jesus Christ (remember Him?) said to pray to the Father in the Name of Jesus.
Well DUH, then pray to the Father in the Name of Jesus.
Thanks
RC
_____________________________
Just a country Preacher's humble opinion
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RE: Praying to the Saints & Mary? - 7/25/2008 9:47:55 AM
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Zhi
Posts: 1184
Joined: 7/31/2007
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And for the last time, PEOPLE IN HEAVEN ARE NOT DEAD: THEY ARE ALIVE. Good Lord, how hard is that to understand? "....'I AM THE GOD OF ABRAHAM, AND THE GOD OF ISAAC, AND THE GOD OF JACOB'? He is not the God of the dead but of the living." God is the God of Abraham, and the God of the "living". Ergo, Abraham is living, not dead. Not too hard to figure out.
Then why does the Scripture say they're dead? In fact, right in front of that verse it talks about the fact that they are dead.
Mark 12:25 When the dead rise, they will neither marry nor be given in marriage; they will be like the angels in heaven. 26 Now about the dead rising--have you not read in the book of Moses, in the account of the bush, how God said to him, 'I am the God of Abraham, the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob'? 27 He is not the God of the dead, but of the living. You are badly mistaken!"
John 5:25 I tell you the truth, a time is coming and has now come when the dead will hear the voice of the Son of God and those who hear will live. 26 For as the Father has life in himself, so he has granted the Son to have life in himself. 27 And he has given him authority to judge because he is the Son of Man. 28 "Do not be amazed at this, for a time is coming when all who are in their graves will hear his voice 29 and come out--those who have done good will rise to live, and those who have done evil will rise to be condemned.
Romans 14:7 For none of us lives to himself alone and none of us dies to himself alone. 8 If we live, we live to the Lord; and if we die, we die to the Lord. So, whether we live or die, we belong to the Lord. 9 For this very reason, Christ died and returned to life so that he might be the Lord of both the dead and the living. 10
1 Corinthians 5:51 Listen, I tell you a mystery: We will not all sleep, but we will all be changed-- 52 in a flash, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet. For the trumpet will sound, the dead will be raised imperishable, and we will be changed.
1 Thessalonians 4:16 For the Lord himself will come down from heaven, with a loud command, with the voice of the archangel and with the trumpet call of God, and the dead in Christ will rise first. 17 After that, we who are still alive and are left will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And so we will be with the Lord forever.
Revelations 14:13 Then I heard a voice from heaven say, "Write: Blessed are the dead who die in the Lord from now on." "Yes," says the Spirit, "they will rest from their labor, for their deeds will follow them."
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The optimist says the glass is half full. The pessimist says the glass is half empty. The engineer says the glass is twice as large as it needs to be.
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RE: Praying to the Saints & Mary? - 7/25/2008 9:51:21 AM
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TheCatholicCrusader
Posts: 203
Joined: 7/10/2008
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there's no indication they can hear you
Whoa. Back up a minute. My brain must be running slow: It took me a minute to catch the contadiction here.
Earlier you were concerned about Necromancy. Well, if those who have passed on cannot hear us, then how would Necromancy even be possible? Huh? I mean, howcan you communicate with "the dead" (as you guys love to call them) if "the dead" cannot hear you? Do you mind explaining this contadiction?
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RE: Praying to the Saints & Mary? - 7/25/2008 9:52:39 AM
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Zhi
Posts: 1184
Joined: 7/31/2007
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quote:
You cannot refute truth. Therefore you have refuted nothing.
*eyeroll* Wow, that's a terribly compelling logical argument. I think I shall use that from now on for everything you say.
Okay, not really.
We've already discussed the fact that Revelations 5:8 does not indicate a) where the prayers are from (saints in heaven or saints on earth?), b) the contents of the prayers, c) when the prayers were made, or d) whether anyone other than God knows the contents of those prayers, so you can't use that to prove your point.
Furthermore, the word used in that verse is "elders", not saints. No one is sure whether those "elders" are saints, or angelic beings.
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The optimist says the glass is half full. The pessimist says the glass is half empty. The engineer says the glass is twice as large as it needs to be.
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RE: Praying to the Saints & Mary? - 7/25/2008 9:53:22 AM
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TheCatholicCrusader
Posts: 203
Joined: 7/10/2008
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ORIGINAL: rcjames
quote:
ORIGINAL: TheCatholicCrusader
It doesn't get any simpler than that. The Coptics do it, the Eastern Orthodox do it, Traditional Anglicans do it, us Catholics do it... .... in other words, over 80% of Christianity does it
Just because a lot of folks believe something that is false; does not make it a truth.
Jesus Christ (remember Him?) said to pray to the Father in the Name of Jesus.
Well DUH, then pray to the Father in the Name of Jesus.
Blash blah blah. The same ol' same ol'. Those scriptures have nothing to do with asking fellow Christians to pray for you.
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