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RE: Praying to the Saints & Mary? - 7/24/2008 6:12:40 PM
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TheCatholicCrusader
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quote:
ORIGINAL: WesP
quote:
So when you ask a friend to pray for you, does that violate God's law? You cannot have it both ways: If its okay to ask Christians on earth to pray for you then its okay to ask Christians in heaven to pray for you. If its not okay to ask Christians in heaven to pray for you then its not okay to ask Christians on earth to pray for you
So which is it?
Again, your logic fails. The bible tells us not to communicate with the dead. Granted, saints are alive in heaven, but they are dead to the physical bodies....
You never listen to what I say. As I told Zhi, Necromancy is forbidden by the Church. This would be two-way communication, conjuring up the dead to learn things. That is bad. But that is not what we do when we send our requests up to our heavenly brothers and sisters. We just send them up, and have confidence that God will make them known.
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RE: Praying to the Saints & Mary? - 7/24/2008 6:14:21 PM
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TheCatholicCrusader
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quote:
ORIGINAL: WesP
.....We took out the books that were not inspired. Peace.
Ahhh, so you admit that you removed books from the Bible, the same books the apostles read from. Thanks again. I'm saving these gems on my hard drive for later.
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RE: Praying to the Saints & Mary? - 7/24/2008 6:15:01 PM
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WesP
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quote:
ORIGINAL: TheCatholicCrusader
quote:
ORIGINAL: WesP
quote:
So when you ask a friend to pray for you, does that violate God's law? You cannot have it both ways: If its okay to ask Christians on earth to pray for you then its okay to ask Christians in heaven to pray for you. If its not okay to ask Christians in heaven to pray for you then its not okay to ask Christians on earth to pray for you
So which is it?
Again, your logic fails. The bible tells us not to communicate with the dead. Granted, saints are alive in heaven, but they are dead to the physical bodies....
You never listen to what I say. As I told Zhi, Necromancy is forbidden by the Church. This would be two-way communication, conjuring up the dead to learn things. That is bad. But that is not what we do when we send our requests up to our heavenly brothers and sisters. We just send them up, and have confidence that God will make them known.
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Listen to what the bible says. No man can know another man's heart, yet the RCC claims to be able to determine saints. If we cannot determine them, then you may be praying to someone in hell.
_____________________________
Peace,
Wes
___________________________________
<--- BTW, this is the true function of corn! It is to help the oil industry and its functionaries, not detract from them! 
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RE: Praying to the Saints & Mary? - 7/24/2008 6:16:07 PM
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TheCatholicCrusader
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Carico
Amen. But those who worship people will do whatever the pope says no matter how unbiblical, and they will also pray to people because they worship people, not God.
Oh yes, I'm busted. I worship people, not God. You got me. <<<roles eyes and is dumbfounded at the sheer stupidity>>>
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RE: Praying to the Saints & Mary? - 7/24/2008 6:16:17 PM
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kelman
Posts: 3760
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quote:
ORIGINAL: TheCatholicCrusader
quote:
ORIGINAL: WesP
quote:
The odd thing, though, is that over 80% of Christianity believes in requesting intercession from the saints, including Coptics, Eastern Orthodox, Traditional Anglicans, and others, on top of Catholics. So there you go, whatever that's worth.
Not to be antagonistic, but this line of reasoning is pointless. If it were valid, then the Muslims would be right! 
No, because they deny Christ's resurrection. They are the REAL antichrists
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And yet, your church now teaches these Jesus denying people can go right into His heaven....hmm, "antichrists" in heaven?...that's what you guys are now teaching?
_____________________________
“beware lest you lose the substance by grasping at the shadow”
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RE: Praying to the Saints & Mary? - 7/24/2008 6:17:41 PM
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TheCatholicCrusader
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quote:
ORIGINAL: WesP
.....the RCC claims to be able to determine saints. If we cannot determine them, then you may be praying to someone in hell.
But we can, so your point is moot.
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RE: Praying to the Saints & Mary? - 7/24/2008 6:22:16 PM
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TheCatholicCrusader
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I see I'll need to steer this thread back on topic. In my understanding, prayer is a "request". When we pray to those who have gone to heaven ahead of us, we are making a "request" of them. And what is that request? It is that THEY pray for US. Most Christians do it all the time, but limit themselves to making this request only of people still on earth. In this, I think their view of the Church is very narrow). You see, Romans 8: 38-39 says: "neither death nor life.. ..present nor the future.. ..height nor depth.. ..will be able to separate us...".; The Family of God transcends death. We ALL LIVE IN CHRIST.
Heb 12: 22-24 says that as we approach God, Jesus and the angels, we also approach "the spirits of righteous men made perfect". In other words, THE SAINTS. But, can they hear us? Scripture indicates those in heaven ARE aware of the prayers of those on earth. For example, in Revelation 5:8, John depicts the saints in heaven offering our prayers to God under the form of "golden bowls full of incense, which are the prayers of the saints." But if the saints in heaven are offering our prayers to God, then they must be aware of our prayers. They are aware of our petitions and present them to God by interceding for us.
Oh, and the intercession of fellow Christians in heaven also clearly does not interfere with Christ’s unique mediatorship because in the four verses immediately preceding 1 Timothy 2:5, Paul says that Christians should interceed: "First of all, then, I urge that supplications, prayers, intercessions, and thanksgivings be made for all men, for kings and all who are in high positions, that we may lead a quiet and peaceable life, godly and respectful in every way. This is good, and pleasing to God our Savior, who desires all men to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth" (1 Tim. 2:1–4). Clearly, intercessory prayers offered by Christians on behalf of others is something "good and pleasing to God"
Bottom line for me, if I am going to ask someone to pray for me, I'm seeking out the holiest person I can find. As the Bible says: "The prayer of a righteous man availeth much" (KJV).
For more Biblical references, go to:
http://www.catholic.com/library/Praying_to_the_Saints.asp
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RE: Praying to the Saints & Mary? - 7/24/2008 6:24:41 PM
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Ps103
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RE: Praying to the Saints & Mary? - 7/24/2008 6:25:37 PM
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Zhi
Posts: 1188
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quote:
You never listen to what I say. As I told Zhi, Necromancy is forbidden by the Church. This would be two-way communication, conjuring up the dead to learn things. That is bad. But that is not what we do when we send our requests up to our heavenly brothers and sisters. We just send them up, and have confidence that God will make them known.
Hmm. I think you have a bit of a problem then using James 5:16.
16Be confessing to one another the trespasses, and be praying for one another, that ye may be healed; very strong is a working supplication of a righteous man;
If the saints in heaven cannot confess trespassing to you or give you prayer requests, then James 5:16 does not apply to them. If they CAN, then you're violating your own rule about necromancy. So, either you can't invoke that verse, or you're indulging in a forbidden practice.
_____________________________
The optimist says the glass is half full. The pessimist says the glass is half empty. The engineer says the glass is twice as large as it needs to be.
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RE: Praying to the Saints & Mary? - 7/24/2008 6:27:57 PM
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WildByNature
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quote:
ORIGINAL: TheCatholicCrusader
quote:
ORIGINAL: WildByNature
First, you would have to prove that we go straight to heaven upon death. Scripture says there is a "first resurrection" and a second resurrection after the millenium. Rev 20:5-6. You would have to show that there are individual resurrections every time someone dies and explain why God says there are only 2 -- not 2 billion. Can you prove this?
This has nothing to do with resurrected saints. Saints in heaven are spirit, or as Hebrews 12:23 calls them, "....the spirits of the righteous made perfect."
Resurrection "has nothing to do with resurrected saints"??? Please explain how the resurrection of the saints is a separate resurrection from the 2 set forth in scripture.
All who are resurrected will be "spirit" and "made perfect". What's your point?
quote:
quote:
ORIGINAL: WildByNature
Second, you would have to prove that we can communicate with those in the grave. Can you prove this?
Can you prove that the Holy Spirit is in you? I mean give me physical eveidence? No, you cannot. Don't hold me to a higher standrd.
I am not holding you to a "higher standard". I did not ask for physical evidence. If you can't back up your premise then it is faulty -- along with your equation. Hence, your premise is successfully refuted.
quote:
But that is not what we do when we send our requests up to our heavenly brothers and sisters. We just send them up, and have confidence that God will make them known.
So, you pray to God to relay a message to the saints to pray to God for you? How is that the same as asking living brothers and sisters to pray for you? Especially when you can't prove that they are in heaven in the first place -- or that they can hear you.
How do you justify that your prayers are sent to God when so many are addressed to the saints themselves?
quote:
quote:
ORIGINAL: WildByNatureThird, you would have to prove that God approves of us communicating with "spirits" from the grave. Can you prove this?
I think I just answered that
Well, I asked about GOD approving this and your answer was that your church disapproves of this -- your church is not God:
quote:
Necromancy is forbidden by the Church. This would be two-way communication, conjuring up the dead to learn things. That is bad.
Necromancy [nek-ruh-man-see](Greek νεκρομαντία, nekromantía) is a form of divination in which the practitioner seeks to summon "operative spirits" or "spirits of divination", for multiple reasons, from spiritual protection to wisdom. The word necromancy derives from the Greek νεκρός (nekrós), "dead", and μαντεία (manteía), "divination".
So why do you do it?
_____________________________
"Stop being afraid! Just keep on believing." (Mark 5:36 ISV)
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RE: Praying to the Saints & Mary? - 7/24/2008 6:34:32 PM
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TheCatholicCrusader
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I give up. I can't do battle all alone with an army of people who refuse to actually listen to what I'm saying. You guys want answers? They're all right here:
http://www.catholic.com/library/mary_saints.asp
Have fun. I'm outta here
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RE: Praying to the Saints & Mary? - 7/24/2008 6:35:59 PM
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kelman
Posts: 3760
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quote:
I just love people who dictate to God what He can and cannot do. Are there any other instructions you'd like to give to God? For that matter, God is pretty old - maybe you are applying for the job? The only one dictating to God, and contrary to His written Word, is RC. God teaches throughout Scripture that He and He alone is to be prayed to; but, RC says "no way, Lord, we pray to whomever our church tells us to".
quote:
Okay. I'll give you that, if you give me the fact that praying to the saints is not a Catholic invention, is something that millions of the faithful feel to be true, and has a scriptual basis - even if that basis is one you disagree with. Of course, it's a RC invention and one which has absolutely no scriptural basis.
quote:
Does God "transfer His omniscience" to you when the Holy Spirit speaks to you? No. Perhaps we should let God do His thing His way, and not place limitations on Him.
God tells us what "His way" is; and, it is not the way of RC. No where does God tell us to pray to anyone but Him - no where. When God "speaks" today, He does so through His Word.
_____________________________
“beware lest you lose the substance by grasping at the shadow”
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RE: Praying to the Saints & Mary? - 7/24/2008 6:36:52 PM
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WesP
Posts: 2362
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quote:
ORIGINAL: TheCatholicCrusader
quote:
ORIGINAL: WesP
quote:
ORIGINAL: TheCatholicCrusader
quote:
ORIGINAL: Carico
Amen. But those who worship people will do whatever the pope says no matter how unbiblical, and they will also pray to people because they worship people, not God.
Oh yes, I'm busted. I worship people, not God. You got me. <<<roles eyes and is dumbfounded at the sheer stupidity>>>
Antagonism is not going to benefit our discussion, friend. Let's talk but nicely.
Its hard to be nice in response to ridiculous statements like that one. Besides, I see you don't mind when your side is antagonistic. BTW: Do you remember this?
quote:
ORIGINAL: WesP
Come on and twist yeah baby twist
Oooh-yeah just like this
Come on little miss and do the twist
Yeah rock on now
Yeah twist on now
Twist
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You have my most humble apologies.
quote:
quote:
ORIGINAL: WesP
.....the RCC claims to be able to determine saints. If we cannot determine them, then you may be praying to someone in hell.
But we can, so your point is moot.
This goes against what the bible says. How can that be justified by a man?
_____________________________
Peace,
Wes
___________________________________
<--- BTW, this is the true function of corn! It is to help the oil industry and its functionaries, not detract from them!
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RE: Praying to the Saints & Mary? - 7/24/2008 6:38:19 PM
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kelman
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quote:
ORIGINAL: rcjames
quote:
ORIGINAL: WesP
There is also much more heat in the discussions in C/A (IMHO). I would much rather come here to dialogue than there. Reformed theology is rigid. The broad attacks here are like child's play.
Agreed, those die hard Calvinist do get a little fiesty sometimesl must have something to do with predestinaton. 
As for this thread it has been more or less cibil and most informative.
Thanks
RC
Nah, the real "fiesty" ones are those Arminians - must have something to do with all that free will they have :)
_____________________________
“beware lest you lose the substance by grasping at the shadow”
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RE: Praying to the Saints & Mary? - 7/24/2008 7:03:25 PM
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kelman
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quote:
In my understanding, prayer is a "request". When we pray to those who have gone to heaven ahead of us, we are making a "request" of them. Yes, and God tells us to bring "requests" to Him...so why insist on bringing them elsewhere?
quote:
Most Christians do it all the time, but limit themselves to making this request only of people still on earth. In this, I think their view of the Church is very narrow).
No where does God tell us to pray to the "church" - no where. But, He does, of course, teach throughout both testaments that prayer is only to Him. I think, perhaps, your view of what God teaches is, in fact, too wide.....way too wide.
quote:
You see, Romans 8: 38-39 says: "neither death nor life.. ..present nor the future.. ..height nor depth.. ..will be able to separate us...".; The Family of God transcends death. We ALL LIVE IN CHRIST. Finish the verses, why don't you?....separate us from WHAT...."separate us from the love of God".
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Heb 12: 22-24 says that as we approach God, Jesus and the angels, we also approach "the spirits of righteous men made perfect". It says NO such thing! It contrasts the Mt. Zion of Moses to that of its fulfillment in Christ. We are all able now to "touch" this mountain this "city of the living God". IOW, we have "access" through Christ - just the exact opposite of RC teaching of access through prayers to saints.
quote:
Clearly, intercessory prayers offered by Christians on behalf of others is something "good and pleasing to God"
Yes, it is; but, your church twists that to mean prayers offered TO other people....dead people, in fact. So, clearly the "bottom line" is your church teaches contrary to what is found in Scripture. There has not been one piece of credible scriptural evidence for RC practice of prayer to saints - no, not one.
_____________________________
“beware lest you lose the substance by grasping at the shadow”
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RE: Praying to the Saints & Mary? - 7/24/2008 7:29:01 PM
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TheCatholicCrusader
Posts: 203
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quote:
ORIGINAL: kelman
quote:
Clearly, intercessory prayers offered by Christians on behalf of others is something "good and pleasing to God"
Yes, it is; but, your church twists that to mean prayers offered TO other people....dead people.....
The Free Dictionary online says this:
pray (pra)
2. To make a fervent request or entreaty
http://www.thefreedictionary.com/pray
We did not make this up. One definition of "pray" is to make a request. "Praying" to saints is "Requesting" that they pray for us. Thats the English langueage.
And, people in heaven are not dead, they are alive. What part of that can't you seem to grasp?
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RE: Praying to the Saints & Mary? - 7/24/2008 7:43:14 PM
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rcjames
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From: Oklahoma
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quote:
ORIGINAL: TheCatholicCrusader
The Free Dictionary online says this:
pray (pra)
2. To make a fervent request or entreaty
http://www.thefreedictionary.com/pray
We did not make this up. One definition of "pray" is to make a request. "Praying" to saints is "Requesting" that they pray for us. Thats the English langueage.
And, people in heaven are not dead, they are alive. What part of that can't you seem to grasp?
And I must point out again that the departed folks you pray to might will be dead and hell bound.
Jesus said to pray to the Father in the Name of Jesus (says it in the Catholic Bible also). So why the insistance in not doing what Jesus said;
(Luk 6:46) And why call ye me, Lord, Lord, and do not the things which I say?
That statement ought to be a real eye opener to those who do not pray as Jesus said for Believers to pray.
Thanks
RC
_____________________________
Just a country Preacher's humble opinion
Read the first chapter of my latest book here;
http://www.deliveranceofsara.com
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RE: Praying to the Saints & Mary? - 7/24/2008 7:49:32 PM
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TheCatholicCrusader
Posts: 203
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quote:
ORIGINAL: rcjames
quote:
ORIGINAL: TheCatholicCrusader
The Free Dictionary online says this:
pray (pra)
2. To make a fervent request or entreaty
http://www.thefreedictionary.com/pray
We did not make this up. One definition of "pray" is to make a request. "Praying" to saints is "Requesting" that they pray for us. Thats the English langueage.
And, people in heaven are not dead, they are alive. What part of that can't you seem to grasp?
And I must point out again that the departed folks you pray to might will be dead and hell bound.
Okay, Lets just stick with one person for a moment: The Blessed Virgin. Its safe to assume she is in heaven. Would you have a problem asking her to pray for you? Just ask her, like you would ask any friend?
quote:
ORIGINAL: rcjames
Jesus said to pray to the Father in the Name of Jesus (says it in the Catholic Bible also)....
I think its safe to say that people in heaven know the correct way to pray. After all, they see clearly, while we see darkly as if through a glass.
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RE: Praying to the Saints & Mary? - 7/24/2008 8:00:35 PM
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rcjames
Posts: 5059
Joined: 7/15/2005
From: Oklahoma
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quote:
ORIGINAL: TheCatholicCrusader
Okay, Lets just stick with one person for a moment: The Blessed Virgin. Its safe to assume she is in heaven. Would you have a problem asking her to pray for you? Just ask her, like you would ask any friend?
Yes I would have a problem being disobedient to the instructions of Christ in favor of doing man's contrary instructions.
A very big problem.
Thanks
RC
_____________________________
Just a country Preacher's humble opinion
Read the first chapter of my latest book here;
http://www.deliveranceofsara.com
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RE: Praying to the Saints & Mary? - 7/24/2008 8:25:23 PM
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ta_mosquito
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RE: Praying to the Saints & Mary? - 7/24/2008 8:30:34 PM
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TheCatholicCrusader
Posts: 203
Joined: 7/10/2008
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quote:
ORIGINAL: rcjames
quote:
ORIGINAL: TheCatholicCrusader
Okay, Lets just stick with one person for a moment: The Blessed Virgin. Its safe to assume she is in heaven. Would you have a problem asking her to pray for you? Just ask her, like you would ask any friend?
Yes I would have a problem being disobedient to the instructions of Christ in favor of doing man's contrary instructions.....
Wait a minute. Your beef was that you weren't sure if the person was in heaven or not. Now you are changing your tune. I will say it again: When you ask a friend to pray for you, does that violate God's law? You cannot have it both ways: If its okay to ask Christians on earth to pray for you then its okay to ask Christians in heaven to pray for you. If its not okay to ask Christians in heaven to pray for you then its not okay to ask Christians on earth to pray for you. So which is it?
Jesus loves it when we pray for each other. I don't see how you could construe that as being disobedient to the instructions of Christ
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RE: Praying to the Saints & Mary? - 7/24/2008 8:42:21 PM
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SovereignIsHe
Posts: 3834
Joined: 4/15/2005
Status: online
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Doesn't the idea that praying to departed folks who may or may not be in heaven assume that they are focused on something other than God? From what I have read the focus in heaven is God on a level we can even comprehend here...
John
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