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RE: Praying to the Saints & Mary? - 7/24/2008 5:26:37 PM
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TheCatholicCrusader
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quote:
ORIGINAL: WesP
quote:
Perhaps we should let God do His thing His way, and not place limitations on Him.
Lets! Why throw Mary and other saints into the mix?
Why deny their existance and intercessory prayers?
For that matter, God threw Mary in the mix, not me. God chose Mary to be His own mother, and to enter the world through her. He didn't have to; He could have just appeared: "POOF". But He chose to go through her. Guess what: If its good enough for God, its good enough for me.
We could do the "why" "why" thing all day. That does not change this basic truth:
1. Chrsitians in heaven are still part of the Body of Christ.
2. It is okay to ask a brother or sister to pray for you.
1 + 2 = 3. Its is okay to ask Christians in heaven to pray for you.
Can you refute this premise?
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RE: Praying to the Saints & Mary? - 7/24/2008 5:28:10 PM
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TheCatholicCrusader
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quote:
ORIGINAL: WesP
....I do not forsake the truth for a bargain.....
No offense, but you already have.
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RE: Praying to the Saints & Mary? - 7/24/2008 5:31:46 PM
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WildByNature
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Lurker
quote:
ORIGINAL: WesP
quote:
ORIGINAL: TheCatholicCrusader
Okay. I'll give you that, if you give me the fact that praying to the saints is not a Catholic invention, and is in fact something that millions of the faithful feel to be true.
I do not forsake the truth for a bargain. It is something started by the CC. I know that millions beleive it, and it makes me sad.
You make this claim, yet you offer no proof. How was it started by the Catholic Church? When? Who?
Found this HERE and thought it was interesting regarding its origin:
The New Catholic Encyclopedia indirectly admits that intercession by “saints” does not have a Biblical foundation. It states: “In regard to the intercession of the dead for the living about which no mention is made in the most ancient books of the O[ld] T[estament], . . . one has the familiar text of 2 Mc 15.11-16. If in the N[ew] T[estament] writings . . . nothing on the subject is explicitly mentioned, one still has in the practice of the early Church an abundant harvest of evidence that demonstrates faith and conviction in the intercessory power of those who had ‘died in Christ.’ Such evidence . . . is seen in the many epitaphs, anaphorae, litanies, liturgical documents, acts of the martyrs, and in the frequent allusions encountered in Oriental, Greek, and Latin patristic literature.”
The highly respected Cyclopædia of Biblical, Theological, and Ecclesiastical Literature, by M’Clintock and Strong, points out that the invocation of “saints” lacks Scriptural support, was unknown to the early Church and was “expressly condemned by the Council of Laodicea (A.D. 481) and by the early fathers.” Though advocates cite certain “Church fathers” and ancient liturgies, this cyclopædia observes: “It must be remembered that they are only unscriptural additions, and that they originated after the infusion into the Church system of Alexandrian Neoplatonism and Oriental Magianism, which left its traces even in the most orthodox form of Christian worship, and creed also, up to the 4th and 5th centuries, a period in the history of the Christian Church when heresies were, to use a common phrase, almost the order of the day.”
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"Stop being afraid! Just keep on believing." (Mark 5:36 ISV)
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RE: Praying to the Saints & Mary? - 7/24/2008 5:33:53 PM
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Lurker
Posts: 742
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From: Silver Spring, MD
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Christian7246
crusader...where and when were you Saved?
Don't know about him, but I was saved by Christ on the Cross about 2000 years ago. I'm also currently being saved as I work out my salvation with fear and trembling, but I trust in the promises of Our Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ and place my hopes in Him and His Church. :)
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Do not be afraid of Christ! He takes nothing away, and he gives you everything. When we give ourselves to him, we receive a hundredfold in return. Yes, open, open wide the doors to Christ—and you will find true life.
-Pope Benedict XVI
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RE: Praying to the Saints & Mary? - 7/24/2008 5:35:25 PM
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TheCatholicCrusader
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Christian7246
crusader...where and when were you Saved?
That question is off topic. Besides, I answered it right here:
http://forums.crosswalk.com/fb.aspx?m=3645709
quote:
Don't know about him, but I was saved by Christ on the Cross about 2000 years ago.
Great answer!.
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RE: Praying to the Saints & Mary? - 7/24/2008 5:42:21 PM
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TheCatholicCrusader
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I see I'll need to steer this thread back on topic. In my understanding, prayer is a "request". When we pray to those who have gone to heaven ahead of us, we are making a "request" of them. And what is that request? It is that THEY pray for US. Most Christians do it all the time, but limit themselves to making this request only of people still on earth. In this, I think their view of the Church is very narrow). You see, Romans 8: 38-39 says: "neither death nor life.. ..present nor the future.. ..height nor depth.. ..will be able to separate us...".; The Family of God transcends death. We ALL LIVE IN CHRIST.
Heb 12: 22-24 says that as we approach God, Jesus and the angels, we also approach "the spirits of righteous men made perfect". In other words, THE SAINTS. But, can they hear us? Scripture indicates those in heaven ARE aware of the prayers of those on earth. For example, in Revelation 5:8, John depicts the saints in heaven offering our prayers to God under the form of "golden bowls full of incense, which are the prayers of the saints." But if the saints in heaven are offering our prayers to God, then they must be aware of our prayers. They are aware of our petitions and present them to God by interceding for us.
Oh, and the intercession of fellow Christians in heaven also clearly does not interfere with Christ’s unique mediatorship because in the four verses immediately preceding 1 Timothy 2:5, Paul says that Christians should interceed: "First of all, then, I urge that supplications, prayers, intercessions, and thanksgivings be made for all men, for kings and all who are in high positions, that we may lead a quiet and peaceable life, godly and respectful in every way. This is good, and pleasing to God our Savior, who desires all men to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth" (1 Tim. 2:1–4). Clearly, intercessory prayers offered by Christians on behalf of others is something "good and pleasing to God"
Bottom line for me, if I am going to ask someone to pray for me, I'm seeking out the holiest person I can find. As the Bible says: "The prayer of a righteous man availeth much" (KJV).
For more Biblical references, go to:
http://www.catholic.com/library/Praying_to_the_Saints.asp
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RE: Praying to the Saints & Mary? - 7/24/2008 5:43:12 PM
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WildByNature
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quote:
ORIGINAL: TheCatholicCrusader
1. Chrsitians in heaven are still part of the Body of Christ.
2. It is okay to ask a brother or sister to pray for you.
1 + 2 = 3. Its is okay to ask Christians in heaven to pray for you.
Can you refute this premise?
First, you would have to prove that we go straight to heaven upon death. Scripture says there is a "first resurrection" and a second resurrection after the millenium. Rev 20:5-6. You would have to show that there are individual resurrections every time someone dies and explain why God says there are only 2 -- not 2 billion. Can you prove this?
Second, you would have to prove that we can communicate with those in the grave. Can you prove this?
Third, you would have to prove that God approves of us communicating with "spirits" from the grave. Can you prove this?
_____________________________
"Stop being afraid! Just keep on believing." (Mark 5:36 ISV)
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RE: Praying to the Saints & Mary? - 7/24/2008 5:50:37 PM
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kelman
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quote:
ORIGINAL: TheCatholicCrusader
quote:
ORIGINAL: kelman
quote:
ORIGINAL: TheCatholicCrusader
I am going to speak personally, and share a bit of my personal prayer with everyone.
Often, I will talk to God. I praise Him, and thank Him for all He has done for me. I will talk to Him about my troubles, then pray for all those who are in need.
When I am done, I will then say something like this: "Father, please bless me as I turn to my brothers and sisters in heaven and ask them for their prayers." I will then go on to ask those is heaven to pray for me, just as I would ask any memner of my local parish to pray for me.
To me, it seems so natural and simple. I never could understand the rejection (sometimes vehement rejection) of this simple truth, that we are all one Body in Christ, on earthh, or in heaven.
Then why not actually deal with the verse you claim offers this "simple truth"?
Are your "brothers and sisters" in heaven confessing their sins to you and you to them? I ask because that is precisely what James is saying "confess your sins one to another".
If, in fact, James 5 is not saying those in heaven will confess to you and you to them; then, you must in all honesty not claim that James is saying those in heaven are to be prayed to.
Who said anything about confessing? This is about "intercessory" prayer, not confessing sins. You are attempting to use the biblical passage of James 5:16 to defend your position of praying to those in heaven.
This particular passage you use is speaking to those ON earth - that is clear. It is clear because in the SAME verse the "one to another" are ON earth and it is those only who are to be prayed for and confessed to.
Because that verse offers no validation for your position, you simply want your cake....
If those confessed to are ON earth...those prayed for are on ON earth.....you may try, but you canNOT have it both ways.
_____________________________
“beware lest you lose the substance by grasping at the shadow”
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RE: Praying to the Saints & Mary? - 7/24/2008 5:52:27 PM
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TheCatholicCrusader
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quote:
ORIGINAL: WildByNature
quote:
ORIGINAL: TheCatholicCrusader
1. Chrsitians in heaven are still part of the Body of Christ.
2. It is okay to ask a brother or sister to pray for you.
1 + 2 = 3. Its is okay to ask Christians in heaven to pray for you.
Can you refute this premise?
First, you would have to prove that we go straight to heaven upon death. Scripture says there is a "first resurrection" and a second resurrection after the millenium. Rev 20:5-6. You would have to show that there are individual resurrections every time someone dies and explain why God says there are only 2 -- not 2 billion. Can you prove this?
This has nothing to do with resurrected saints. Saints in heaven are spirit, or as Hebrews 12:23 calls them, "....the spirits of the righteous made perfect."
quote:
ORIGINAL: WildByNature
Second, you would have to prove that we can communicate with those in the grave. Can you prove this?
Can you prove that the Holy Spirit is in you? I mean give me physical eveidence? No, you cannot. Don't hold me to a higher standrd. As I told Zhi, Necromancy is forbidden by the Church. This would be two-way communication, conjuring up the dead to learn things. That is bad. But that is not what we do when we send our requests up to our heavenly brothers and sisters. We just send them up, and have confidence that God will make them known.
quote:
ORIGINAL: WildByNatureThird, you would have to prove that God approves of us communicating with "spirits" from the grave. Can you prove this?
I think I just answered that
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RE: Praying to the Saints & Mary? - 7/24/2008 5:52:39 PM
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kelman
Posts: 3686
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quote:
ORIGINAL: onerock
quote:
ORIGINAL: kelman
quote:
Bottom line for me, if I am going to ask someone to pray for me, I'm seeking out the holiest person I can find. As the Bible says: "The prayer of a righteous man availeth much" (KJV).
Further investigation of the passage would show James was speaking to people who had as yet not died and were capable of praying for each other.
Also in the very same passage of James 5:16 we are told to confess our sins to each other.
Are the saints in heaven in the habit of confessing their sins to you and you to them?
There is nothing in this passage, or in any other passage of the Bible, which would even remotely legitimize the praying to Mary or to saints - nothing.
In all of God's Word, in all of His instructions to us, we find the only one EVER prayed to is God.
Hello Kelman,
Can you explain these passages in Scripture and maintain your assertion that God is the only one ever prayed to in Scripture?
quote:
Acts 8:34 (KJV)
And the eunuch answered Philip, and said, I pray thee, of whom speaketh the prophet this? of himself, or of some other man? (The eunuch prayed to Philip)
Acts 24:1-6 (KJV)
1 And after five days Ananias the high priest descended with the elders, and with a certain orator named Tertullus, who informed the governor against Paul. 2 And when he was called forth, Tertullus began to accuse him, saying, Seeing that by thee we enjoy great quietness, and that very worthy deeds are done unto this nation by thy providence, 3 We accept it always, and in all places, most noble Felix, with all thankfulness. 4 Notwithstanding, that I be not further tedious unto thee, I pray thee that thou wouldest hear us of thy clemency a few words. 5 For we have found this man a pestilent fellow, and a mover of sedition among all the Jews throughout the world, and a ringleader of the sect of the Nazarenes: 6 Who also hath gone about to profane the temple: whom we took, and would have judged according to our law.
Acts 27:33-34 (KJV)
33 And while the day was coming on, Paul besought them all to take meat, saying, This day is the fourteenth day that ye have tarried and continued fasting, having taken nothing. 34 Wherefore I pray you to take some meat: for this is for your health: for there shall not an hair fall from the head of any of you.
2 Corinthians 5:20 (KJV)
20 Now then we are ambassadors for Christ, as though God did beseech you by us: we pray you in Christ's stead, be ye reconciled to God.
(Paul is praying to the corinthians to be reconciled to God.)
Genesis 12:13 (KJV)
Say, I pray thee, thou art my sister: that it may be well with me for thy sake; and my soul shall live because of thee.
Genesis 13:8-9 (Douay-Rheims)
8 Abram therefore said to Lot: Let there be no quarrel, I beseech thee, between me and thee, and between my herdsmen and thy herdsmen: for we are brethren. 9 Behold the whole land is before thee: depart from me, I pray thee: if thou wilt go to the left hand, I will take the right: if thou choose the right hand, I will pass to the left.
Genesis 16:2 (KJV)
And Sarai said unto Abram, Behold now, the LORD hath restrained me from bearing: I pray thee, go in unto my maid; it may be that I may obtain children by her. And Abram hearkened to the voice of Sarai.
Genesis 24:2 (KJV)
And Abraham said unto his eldest servant of his house, that ruled over all that he had, Put, I pray thee, thy hand under my thigh:
Genesis 24:12 (KJV)
And he said, O LORD God of my master Abraham, I pray thee, send me good speed this day, and shew kindness unto my master Abraham. (God is being prayed to here.)
Genesis 25:30 (KJV)
And Esau said to Jacob, Feed me, I pray thee, with that same red pottage; for I am faint: therefore was his name called Edom.
Genesis 32:29 (KJV)
29 And Jacob asked him, and said, Tell me, I pray thee, thy name. And he said, Wherefore is it that thou dost ask after my name? And he blessed him there. (Jacob prayed to the angel who wrestled with him.)
Judges 13:15 (KJV)
15 And Manoah said unto the angel of the LORD, I pray thee, let us detain thee, until we shall have made ready a kid for thee. (Manoah prayed to the angel of the Lord.)
1 Samuel 9:18 (Douay-Rheims)
And Saul came to Samuel in the midst of the gate, and said: Tell me, I pray thee, where is the house of the seer?
1 Samuel 15:24-25 (KJV)
24 And Saul said unto Samuel, I have sinned: for I have transgressed the commandment of the LORD, and thy words: because I feared the people, and obeyed their voice. 25 Now therefore, I pray thee, pardon my sin, and turn again with me, that I may worship the LORD. (Saul prayed to Samuel.)
1 Samuel 30:7 (KJV)
And David said to Abiathar the priest, Ahimelech's son, I pray thee, bring me hither the ephod. And Abiathar brought thither the ephod to David. (David prayed to Abiathar the priest.)
2 Samuel 24:10 (Douay-Rheims)
But David’s heart struck him, after the people were numbered: and David said to the Lord: I have sinned very much in what I have done: but I pray thee, O Lord, to take away the iniquity of thy servant, because I have done exceeding foolishly.
(The Lord is being prayed to here.)
1 Thessalonians 4:1 (Douay-Rheims)
1 For the rest therefore, brethren, pray and beseech you in the Lord Jesus that, as you have received from us, how you ought to walk and to please God, so also you would walk, that you may abound the more.
(Paul is praying to and beseeching the brethren to walk and please God.)
Do you now understand what "pray" means kelman?
Thanks and God Bless!
onerock
I really hope, but I fear it isn't, that this was a "joke" post.
I suppose if you enter a fastfood joint you beseech and pray the clerk to prepare you a WHOPPER.....lol
Come on guys, get a grip. You simply have no scriptural support for prayer to anyone but God. Prayer is worship and God alone is worthy of worship AND prayer.
Regardless of the errors RC teaches, all "intentions" are brought before the throne of grace - that is what God teaches.
Hebrews 4:16 Let us therefore come boldly unto the throne of grace, that we may obtain mercy, and find grace to help in time of need.
Philippians 4:6 Be careful for nothing; but in every thing by prayer and supplication with thanksgiving let your requests be made known unto God.
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“beware lest you lose the substance by grasping at the shadow”
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RE: Praying to the Saints & Mary? - 7/24/2008 5:55:05 PM
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TheCatholicCrusader
Posts: 203
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quote:
ORIGINAL: kelman
.....You are attempting to use the biblical passage of James 5:16 to defend your position of praying to those in heaven.....
I never used that passage for that purpose. Where did you get that idea? Look, I'm gonna keep saying this until it sinks in:
1. Chrsitians in heaven are still part of the Body of Christ.
2. It is okay to ask a brother or sister to pray for you.
1 + 2 = 3. Its is okay to ask Christians in heaven to pray for you.
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RE: Praying to the Saints & Mary? - 7/24/2008 5:58:11 PM
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TheCatholicCrusader
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Christian7246
crusader...some people just don't understand!
it's kinda funny how you are crusading for the pope but quoting a KJV....
I don't crusade for the pope. I am a Christian, and Jesus Christ is my Lord and Savior. I just believe that He chose Peter to perform a special role, and I believe the pope carries on that role. Thats all it is, no more, no less.
The KJV can be poetic at times. Personally, I use the RSV-CE
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RE: Praying to the Saints & Mary? - 7/24/2008 5:59:26 PM
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kelman
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quote:
ORIGINAL: martyfran
quote:
ORIGINAL: rcjames
quote:
ORIGINAL: TheCatholicCrusader
To answer that question, one must first grapple with the question of an "infallible" teaching office of the Church (Magisterium). Since I believe in the infallibility of the Pope, I believe that when saints are canonized (declared to be in heaven) the pronouncement is true. Thats what the canonization process is all about.
Lets not derail into Papal Infallibility though. Here's a link if you wish to see our point of view on that hairy subject: http://www.catholic.com/library/Papal_Infallibility.asp
Oh so you think the Magisterium determines who goes to Heaven.
Well Silly me, I thought that God would make that decision.
Thanks
RC
No RC you have it backwards. A saint does not go to heaven because they are canonized. They are canonized because they are already in heaven, which is something that God decided.
Nope, you don't have a scintilla of proof that any of these saints are in heaven. The ONLY ones that we can know for a certainty are those who are written about in the only thing God calls inspired - The Bible. All the rest is simply the imaginations of men.
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“beware lest you lose the substance by grasping at the shadow”
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RE: Praying to the Saints & Mary? - 7/24/2008 6:00:38 PM
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kelman
Posts: 3686
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quote:
ORIGINAL: texastweet
quote:
Either way, there's no indication that she can hear us.
Frankly I'm glad if the saints in heaven can't hear us. They deserve eternal bliss after their trials, not constant concern and woe over the whiners here on earth. ;)
So Zhi, you don't believe in miracles or give any creadence to the thousands upon thousands of alleged visitations, etc? It's ok for tent preachers to call down a healing or say that "God put this on my heart" or expel satan, but there is no way heavenly beings can appear on earth or actually visit someone. Why don't you go rent "The Song of Bernadette".
I know, all Catholic alleged miracles must be promptly ignored and dismissed....
Otis
We know "visitations" canNOT be from God because He has finished His revelation to man when He finished the Bible. So, whereever it is coming from - it is not from God.
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“beware lest you lose the substance by grasping at the shadow”
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RE: Praying to the Saints & Mary? - 7/24/2008 6:02:23 PM
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TheCatholicCrusader
Posts: 203
Joined: 7/10/2008
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quote:
ORIGINAL: kelman
Nope, you don't have a scintilla of proof that any of these saints are in heaven. The ONLY ones that we can know for a certainty are those who are written about in the only thing God calls inspired - The Bible. All the rest is simply the imaginations of men.
Got some bad news for you then: The Church that canonized the New Testament in the 4th century under Pope Damasus I is the same Church that declares saints in heaven. If you don't trust that Church, then you cannot trust your New Testament.
quote:
We know "visitations" canNOT be from God because He has finished His revelation to man when He finished the Bible. So, whereever it is coming from - it is not from God.
I just love people who dictate to God what He can and cannot do. Are there any other instructions you'd like to give to God? For that matter, God is pretty old - maybe you are applying for the job?
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RE: Praying to the Saints & Mary? - 7/24/2008 6:03:25 PM
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kelman
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quote:
ORIGINAL: PeterD
Question
As the topic says, "Praying to the Saints & Mary?"
Is it a Law to do this by praying to the Saints & Mary?
Keep The Law? - One Stop Thread, does this thread address
this issue of praying to the Saints & Mary?
Peter
It may be a RC "law"; but, certainly it is not God's law.
In fact, it violates all of God's teaching throughout His Word wherein we see prayer ONLY to Him.
_____________________________
“beware lest you lose the substance by grasping at the shadow”
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RE: Praying to the Saints & Mary? - 7/24/2008 6:07:00 PM
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TheCatholicCrusader
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quote:
ORIGINAL: kelman
It may be a RC "law"; but, certainly it is not God's law.
In fact, it violates all of God's teaching throughout His Word wherein we see prayer ONLY to Him.
So when you ask a friend to pray for you, does that violate God's law? You cannot have it both ways: If its okay to ask Christians on earth to pray for you then its okay to ask Christians in heaven to pray for you. If its not okay to ask Christians in heaven to pray for you then its not okay to ask Christians on earth to pray for you
So which is it?
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RE: Praying to the Saints & Mary? - 7/24/2008 6:09:43 PM
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kelman
Posts: 3686
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quote:
ORIGINAL: TheCatholicCrusader
quote:
ORIGINAL: texastweet
Actually I think the dpeictions of Jesus and Mary have been fairly consistant--if you don't apply stereotypic Jewish biases.
Otis
I think people need to remember that art is art, and thats all it is: Its Art.
Art is an expression of an artist's feelings and inspirations. The purpose of art is not to be theologically acurate. The purpose of art is the creation of beauty and the expression of the human heart. The fact that God could put such a gift into the hands of great artists is something to be celebrated. I enjoy beautiful things when I see them, and praise God for his gifts, that He should inspire men to create such masterpieces, such as the works of Michaelangelo and Raphael.
Exactly, this art is simply the imaginations of men. While God certainly gave the talent to paint, He certainly never gives permission to paint what can only be false images of Himself.
Not to mention His command to not make representations of that which is in heaven....but, hey what's one more commandment...
_____________________________
“beware lest you lose the substance by grasping at the shadow”
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RE: Praying to the Saints & Mary? - 7/24/2008 6:11:04 PM
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TheCatholicCrusader
Posts: 203
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quote:
ORIGINAL: WesP
quote:
Got some bad news for you then: The Church that canonized the New Testament in the 4th century under Pope Damasus I is the same Church that declares saints in heaven. If you don't trust that Church, then you cannot trust your New Testament.
You got some faulty logic there friend. They put the scrolls together into one assembly, but they did not write them. The truth is there, but then they added to it.
BINGO!! THEY chose which books went into it and THEY chose which books did not. If you don't trust their decisions, then you must think they may have chosen wrong.
They were either in infallible in their decision, or you NT may be faulty!!!
WE HAVE A WINNER FOLKS. BIG WES STEPPED IN THE TRAP.
Thanks for playing.
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RE: Praying to the Saints & Mary? - 7/24/2008 6:12:18 PM
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WesP
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