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RE: Worship Statues? - 1/9/2008 2:30:50 PM
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Papa-san
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Exactly!
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RE: Worship Statues? - 1/9/2008 3:02:19 PM
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Soxfan
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Remember it's not just statues.
People pray to and worship images on a tree, a stain on a highway overpass, a cloud formation, and even a an image on a grilled cheese sandwich.
The queen of peace sure gets around...eh?
_____________________________
"This would be the first step in apostasy; men first forget the true, and then adore the false.".......C.H. Spurgeon
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RE: Worship Statues? - 1/9/2008 3:16:38 PM
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Catholicandloveit
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Papa-san
Revelation 5 makes absolutely NO reference as to the source of these prayers. You cannot say that they are offering 'our' prayers, because it doesn't say they are 'ours'..
quote:
We don't know that they are 'our' prayers, so the rest is supposition... invented based on assumption.
quote:
There is no indication that they have any awareness of what these prayers are or where they are from. I would be one to argue this, as scripture clearly states over and over and over again that we are to direct our prayers to the Father through Jesus. It also specifically states that those prayers directed to others are indicative of idolotry which is one of the things that angers God the most... Nowhere does it state that they have ANY clue as to the nature of these prayers. They are simply a resource the elders present... Anything beyond this is, again, mere supposition, and therefore invalid.
No it doesn't say 'our' prayers but it also doesn't say their own prayers either. It does however say "the holy ones" and because it says whose prayers they brought is not reasonable to say the elders brought "others prayers" and not their own. At very least this passage shows that those in heaven can and do offer prayers for others. Which brings me to, if they are offering prayers then they must be able to hear prayers, why would they offer prayers for others if they don't know what those prayers are. IMO because those in heaven have this ability, given by God, I do not offend him in my communications with the ones he allows to hear me.
In the same way I ask people on earth to pray for me I also ask the saints (anyone in heaven), I am confident that I do not in either case offend God.
quote:
I apologize that my 'invent-o-matic' comment seems to have offended you, but with so many Catholic doctrines built on assumption, desire, and supposition, I cannot honestly call it anything but that...
Your 'invent-o-matic' comment frustrated me more then anything, it seams that when all else fails in a discussion there will be name calling.
Another example of those in heaven hear the prayers/cries of those outside of heaven is,
Luke 16: 19-30 Jesus gives an example of a rich man in Hell calling on Abraham in heaven to go tell his brothers to reform their lives. AND Abraham hears him!
Pax,
Mary
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RE: Worship Statues? - 1/9/2008 7:05:01 PM
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Papa-san
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So then you seem to agree... suppositions, opinions, and assumptions... Oh my!
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RE: Worship Statues? - 1/10/2008 1:06:48 AM
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PeterD
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Papa-san
So then you seem to agree... suppositions, opinions, and assumptions... Oh my!
Hello Sir!
May I write some encouraging words relating to Acts 14:22
Matthew 9:4
4 Knowing their thoughts, Jesus said, "Why do you entertain evil thoughts in your hearts?
Knowing their thoughts, Jesus said, "Why do you entertain evil thoughts in your hearts?
Papa-san, for myself as Christian what does it mean to entertain evil thoughts in your hearts?
For example this topic (Worship Statues) am I entertaining evil thoughts in my heart by giving
attention to this even by talking to others about it ?
I was thinking if I continue to talk about these false practices am I then promoting interest in it?
For myself I am speaking about being distracted from following Jesus! And I'm wondering if all these
topic's are helping us or not, because I spoke many words and not all careful words either.
1 Timothy 6:3-5
3If anyone teaches a different doctrine and does not agree with the sound words of our Lord Jesus Christ and the teaching that accords with godliness, 4 he is puffed up with conceit and understands nothing. He has an unhealthy craving for controversy and for quarrels about words, which produce envy, dissension, slander, evil suspicions, 5and constant friction among people who are depraved in mind and deprived of the truth, imagining that godliness is a means of gain.
1 Corinthians 15:33
33 Do not be deceived: "Bad company ruins good morals."
Please, be careful Papa-san I know now that I need too in order to
Luke 13:24
24 "Strive to enter through the narrow door. For many, I tell you, will seek to enter and will not be able.
PeterD
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RE: Worship Statues? - 1/10/2008 10:52:18 AM
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Papa-san
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Thank you for the reminder!
I DO get to a point of being contentious at times. I get thoroughly disgusted with ignorance and blindness, and with the consequences that come as a result:
I watched as my aunt literally lost her mind as a result of what she was taught and what she believed as a result of the teaching and treatment she received at the hands of 'those who should know better'. She finally died in front of her little shrine to Mary, without really any focus on Jesus throughout her last couple of years. (As far as I could tell, there wasn't any focus on Him even before that, either.) She prayed to her statue and to the little representations of the saints until her miserable dying breath.
The priests responsible to teach her about Christ decided that it was more important that she learn about sexual sin and how to try to justify it and hide it. They made her believe that these encounters were her fault, and when she was impregnated at 15 years old by one of the priests, she was told that she would be going to hell for 'corrupting a man of God', and that she needed to have an abortion to keep from bringing this priest(s) down with her. (They weren't sure which one of them was the father.)
7 to 10 masses a week, and she couldn't or wouldn't mention Jesus Christ to me? She was always full of talk of Mary and the saints who would get us into heaven, and was forever providing me and my brother with St. Christopher charms and our own little Mary figurines. She told us to pray to them, and taught us the rosary and a hundred other prayers to everyone BUT Jesus.
Is there the possibility she was missing something on her own? Yes. But then why didn't the hundred other family friends and relatives ever mention Christ? The only possible explanation is that He wasn't taught to them, or if He was, His role was as some subserviant lackey to these 'great people'. I went to hundreds of masses myself, and came out of that with the clear understanding of what God expected, but that was only because my mom had taken the time to teach Latin to my brother and me. Yet God's expectations were tempered with the need for us to make sure we were putting money in the offering plate, praying to the saints and Mary, and doing good things. When we blew it, we needed to give more money to the church and confess our sins to a priest, who was the only one who could garner us some forgiveness from God.
Having actually studied that big dust collector on the coffee table that was there as a decoration, I came to the realization that the Catholic church was the epitome of all that was un-Christlike. It was an organization out to serve and support itself through imparting guilt upon those who attended services, and telling them that the only way to 'get right with God' was to to Mary for forgiveness and make all the offerings the priests told us to.
Maybe I didn't understand it fully, but I can say I understood enough to know that it was one of the quickest ways to hell that people have invented. I knew enough to run from it as fast as I could so that I could learn who Jesus was, and learn to worship Him and the Father the way Gods word commands that I do. In my 20 years of Catholocism, I learned everything BUT this...
I don't think there is a problem with being puffed up, but I do agree that I am contentious. I am called to teach His Truth, and I get frustrated when people choose to blindly follow lies, so I try to open eyes. Jesus walked into the temple and got the un-divided attention of those He wanted to correct.
I shall try to temper my posts better from now on, brother!
Again, thank you for the reminder.
< Message edited by Papa-san -- 1/10/2008 11:01:53 AM >
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RE: Worship Statues? - 1/10/2008 12:01:38 PM
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Catholicandloveit
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Papa-san,
Prayers for your Aunt.
There is a special place in Hell for all Gods ministers who abuse the one He charges them to love and protect.
May the Peace of Christ be with you always,
Mary
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RE: Worship Statues? - 1/10/2008 12:22:01 PM
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mcleod
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Dear Papa-san,
Sorry to hear that about your aunt.
I feel sorry for people you think that creator of them can't solved any of their problems. That God needs others to hear their pray. The reason I pray for other people here on earth is one thing to show that I love them and care dearly for them. Also I don't talk to any one else except for to the Father for their needs. Jesus the creator of every thing tells us to pray to the Father and know on else. By the way those prays that the saints have and elders, were prays that we prayed to the Father about not to them.
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RE: Worship Statues? - 1/11/2008 12:03:07 PM
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Lurker
Posts: 740
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From: Silver Spring, MD
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Papa-San, I'm so sorry to hear about the horrific abuses done to your aunt. I pray that God has shown her mercy in the next life.
:(
_____________________________
Do not be afraid of Christ! He takes nothing away, and he gives you everything. When we give ourselves to him, we receive a hundredfold in return. Yes, open, open wide the doors to Christ—and you will find true life.
-Pope Benedict XVI
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RE: Worship Statues? - 1/12/2008 2:41:04 AM
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gatolover
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Greetings, mcleod,
Interestingly enough, you bring up the Lord's prayer in your post, which has been referenced many times before in this thread [as well as the "Praying to Mary and the Saints" thread] as if it is some sort of "scriptural proof" that Christians are ordered to pray only to the Father, all on their own.
I always find it ironic that the very first words, the point of reference, is OUR Father, which implies a corporate nature to prayer that is quite compatible with the doctrine of the communion of saints embraced by the Church since ages past.
It is "OUR" Father that Jesus Christ our Lord taught us to pray to, not "MY" Father alone.
Yes, our Lord was quite clear that we do not approach the throne alone.
Just a thought,
gatolover
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RE: Worship Statues? - 1/12/2008 3:37:28 AM
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gatolover
Posts: 544
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PapaSan wrote:
quote:
She finally died in front of her little shrine to Mary, without really any focus on Jesus throughout her last couple of years. (As far as I could tell, there wasn't any focus on Him even before that, either.)
Are you sure you are so capable of reading your aunt's heart?
Your judgmentalism is a bit scary. I prefer to leave that particular "job" to my Lord and Savior, Jesus Christ. Perhaps you should offer prayers to our Father for your aunt. In my experience, I've noticed that any effort geared toward exhibiting the Love of Christ through compassion, understanding, and faith, in humility, is what my Lord calls me to, just as He lived His Life. When I am faithful in following His lead, that is when I am most joyful and my efforts are most fruitful.
I cannot help but wonder what you hope to accomplish by casting aspersion on your deceased aunt's faith and character?
Peace,
gatolover
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RE: Worship Statues? - 1/12/2008 11:07:59 AM
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Papa-san
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Be very clear that I am casting NO 'aspersion' on her character. Her character was awesome. As to her faith, she is to reckon this between herself and God. I do not ever judge anyones personal faith. I observe it, yes, but there is a huge difference between making an observation and making a judgement.
What I wholeheartedly condemn, is an organization that calls itself Christian, and stops there. One that says it believes Gods word, and teaches otherwise. One that, through it's lack of internal discipline, condones the sexual atrocities committed by it's 'priests'. One that teaches it's people (at those times it does actually teach), that they are better served by praying to idols and dead people rather than doing what Jesus said to do. My revulsion is towards an organization that has relegated our Saviour to a position that can hardly be seen beyond the clouds of popery, idolotry and false doctrine. A 'church' that is laughable, at best, contemptible at least, and the laughingstock of the rest of the Christian world... at least those parts of it that put Jesus Christ where He and only He deserves to be.
So don't tell me that I have any problem with the innocent person that the leaders of your church lied to, raped, and cast aside to die a miserable death after having lived a life of hell at their hands. So I ask what happened to these men who harmed her in such a way? They were sent to a 'retreat' for a year and were then sent on to new parishes far away so they could get a fresh start at preying on children elsewhere. (Someone not in your clergy who did the same thing would have been convicted in a court of law and would have been sent to prison to suffer their just desserts at the hands of people who understand how a child rapist deserves to be treated. They wouldn't have been moved to a different state and put back in charge of children, as these men were.)
I thank God that He promises to take care of injustices like this. I might even be able to be close enough to see and hear what He says and does to them. I know my chances are better than many, because I will have millions fewer people to try to peek around... All those people will be clamoring to be the ones to go 'thank' Mary and the saints for their 'salvation'. Those people won't be in the way for long... They'll take themselves out of my way by running off to see their idols!
< Message edited by Papa-san -- 1/12/2008 11:30:52 AM >
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RE: Worship Statues? - 1/12/2008 11:17:59 AM
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Papa-san
Posts: 995
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quote:
ORIGINAL: gatolover
Greetings, mcleod,
Interestingly enough, you bring up the Lord's prayer in your post, which has been referenced many times before in this thread [as well as the "Praying to Mary and the Saints" thread] as if it is some sort of "scriptural proof" that Christians are ordered to pray only to the Father, all on their own.
I always find it ironic that the very first words, the point of reference, is OUR Father, which implies a corporate nature to prayer that is quite compatible with the doctrine of the communion of saints embraced by the Church since ages past.
It is "OUR" Father that Jesus Christ our Lord taught us to pray to, not "MY" Father alone.
Yes, our Lord was quite clear that we do not approach the throne alone.
Just a thought,
gatolover
You didn't quite wrap your mind around this too well, eh? LOL. It isn't about where the prayers are coming from. It's about where they are going to. No-one has said that multiple people cannot pray to the one Father. Scripture encourages it.
What He condemns clearly in scripture is when these people go, instead, to the throne of "The Queen of Heaven". (Which IS what is happening when they go to her in prayer.) Or when they go to the mini-thrones upon which the 'Church' has placed all those saints. What you think they do with those prayers is irrelavent. The fact that remains is that those prayers did not go directly to God as He tells us to do, and therefore, come from an idolotrous heart. As a result, there is a very real possibility that they never reached His ears!
< Message edited by Papa-san -- 1/12/2008 11:24:36 AM >
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RE: Worship Statues? - 1/12/2008 12:11:40 PM
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Mannamuncher
Posts: 2921
Joined: 4/13/2005
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quote:
ORIGINAL: gatolover
PeterD asked:
quote:
What is so special about the kneeling and the bowing around the altar?
Mannamuncher responded:
quote:
Kneel in my office and pray to God...
Priceless...
OK, the RC folk are being pugnacious here...
I am not praying to my desk or my chair.
I am praying to God and God alone. Perhaps this simple,
childlike faith as Jesus instructed, is hard for RC to fathom ?
If I had a statue of a turtle in my office corner, and I was
kneeling in front of the turtle with my eyes closed, and my
lips moving, it would look like I was worshipping the turtle.
Anyone who cannot see that is simply being obstinate.
Doghouse posted a flippant remark to someone (HD ?)
regarding kneeling beside your bed confessing sins to God.
We can boldly approach the throne of grace from anywhere.
We don't need a staute in front of us, beads in our hands, a
St Joseph's Missal in our pew, or a monstrance with a host !
We are IMMEDIATELY in God's Presence whenever we desire !
_____________________________
Effectus non excedit virtutem suae causae [the effect cannot exceed the power of its cause]
Grace may be free, but it may not be chosen...
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RE: Worship Statues? - 1/26/2008 3:27:15 PM
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Mannamuncher
Posts: 2921
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Some of our RC friends have attempted to force
a peculiar analogy between statues, relics, icons, etc.
with the practice of displaying family pictures. HUH ?
Their logic is that the practice of gathering aroung them
a great number of figurines is simply what we humans do.
IOW, we carry pictures of the grandkids in our wallet.
We have a photo of our wife on our desk at work.
Isn't that worshipping, they say ? Of course not !
They say what is the harm in reminding ourselves of them ?
But let's explore the frivolity of their argument...
No one kneels before or prays to their grandkids...
No one worships their wife or husband, do they ?
Additionally, do we really need a reminder of them ?
Is our love of them so shallow and our memory so
deficient , that we require a physical reminder ?
Wouldn't it be prudent to remember Jesus exclusively ?
_____________________________
Effectus non excedit virtutem suae causae [the effect cannot exceed the power of its cause]
Grace may be free, but it may not be chosen...
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RE: Worship Statues? - 1/27/2008 12:43:59 PM
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Mannamuncher
Posts: 2921
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Are we talking the garden variety statue
that is disproportionately larger than a human
or the smaller handy dashboard model ?
Does a bigger statue generate more "power" ?
_____________________________
Effectus non excedit virtutem suae causae [the effect cannot exceed the power of its cause]
Grace may be free, but it may not be chosen...
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RE: Worship Statues? - 1/28/2008 11:19:34 AM
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Catholicandloveit
Posts: 318
Joined: 1/3/2008
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Mannamuncher
Some of our RC friends have attempted to force
a peculiar analogy between statues, relics, icons, etc.
with the practice of displaying family pictures.
They say what is the harm in reminding ourselves of them ?
Additionally, do we really need a reminder of them ?
Is our love of them so shallow and our memory so
deficient , that we require a physical reminder ?
Is there a cross, a bible, or a picture of Jesus in your home or church. Is your love for him so shallow that you need these items? Kinda ridiculous right?
My love for him and his saints is so great that I want to have these items around me. And I will say again it is impossible to accidentally worship something.
Pax,
Mary
_____________________________
Blessed be Jesus in the Most Holy Sacrament of the Altar
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RE: Worship Statues? - 1/31/2008 7:32:37 AM
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Doghouse
Posts: 889
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From: The Buckle of the Bible Belt
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quote:
Is our love of them so shallow and our memory so deficient , that we require a physical reminder ? I was watching the movie "A Few Good Men" on TNT the other night. I will describe my favorite scene in that movie; thanks to Jewish director Rob Reiner for sneaking this one in under the radar...
1st Lieutenant Jonathan Kendrick (Kiefer Sutherland) is being interviewed in Private Santiago's room. While stating "King James Bible on my nightstand" - and launching into a dissertation about "Commander, I believe in God, and in his son Jesus Christ, and because I do, I can say this: Private Santiago is dead and that's a tragedy. But he's dead because he had no code. He's dead because he had no honor. And God was watching."
The next shot is to Tom Cruise standing next to the locker, with Santiago's Crucifix hanging on the wall - subtley out of focus.
Sutherland is a moderate to lukewarm Catholic, if I am not mistaken...
_____________________________
When someone virtuous turns away from virtue to commit iniquity...it is because of the iniquity he committed that he must die. But if he turns from the wickedness he has committed, he does what is right and just, he shall preserve his life" - Ez 18:25-28
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RE: Worship Statues? - 1/31/2008 11:06:11 AM
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Papa-san
Posts: 995
Joined: 4/12/2006
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Catholicandloveit
Is there a cross, a bible, or a picture of Jesus in your home or church. Is your love for him so shallow that you need these items? Kinda ridiculous right? The fact that you see the bible as a 'religious symbol' is quite telling in regards to your belief system. We have a cross in our church sanctuary. No-one kneels before it to worship it. We do not have a cross in our house anywhere.
We do not have a picture of Jesus. (No-one knows what he looks like enough to do a portrait, anyways...)
My bible isn't worshipped, but is used daily as a way for me to know more about my God and His son Jesus Christ.. Jesus is the Word, according to the written word, anyways, and the Bible is a part of that. It was given to us so we would know Him and know when people are teaching doctrine that is contrary to that Word. (Therefore contrary to Jesus and His teachings.)
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RE: Worship Statues? - 1/31/2008 12:05:49 PM
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Catholicandloveit
Posts: 318
Joined: 1/3/2008
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Papa-san
quote:
ORIGINAL: Catholicandloveit
Is there a cross, a bible, or a picture of Jesus in your home or church. Is your love for him so shallow that you need these items? Kinda ridiculous right? The fact that you see the bible as a 'religious symbol' is quite telling in regards to your belief system. We have a cross in our church sanctuary. No-one kneels before it to worship it. We do not have a cross in our house anywhere.
We do not have a picture of Jesus. (No-one knows what he looks like enough to do a portrait, anyways...)
My bible isn't worshipped, but is used daily as a way for me to know more about my God and His son Jesus Christ.. Jesus is the Word, according to the written word, anyways, and the Bible is a part of that. It was given to us so we would know Him and know when people are teaching doctrine that is contrary to that Word. (Therefore contrary to Jesus and His teachings.)
Is the bible necessary for your love of Christ, without having a physical copy of that book would you be able to love him?
My appreciation to those whom protected and translated these books which make up the bible could never be fully expressed. I am Catholic because I have read it.
When I see a bible it reminds me of Christs love, as does a crucifix, as does a painting of someones interpretation of what Jesus looks like to them, as does a Nativity scene. I worship none of these physical items but rather use them as a way to more fully appreciate Christs love and grow in my relationship with Him. My love for Christ and his angels and his saints is so great that I want to have these items around me. But when I don't have a bible with me, or a crucifix, I can, and do still love and worship Christ. My love for him is not so shallow that with out a bible I can't love him.
And I will say again, and again, and again it is impossible to accidentally worship something.
Pax,
Mary
_____________________________
Blessed be Jesus in the Most Holy Sacrament of the Altar
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RE: Worship Statues? - 1/31/2008 1:11:54 PM
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Papa-san
Posts: 995
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Catholicandloveit
Is the bible necessary for your love of Christ, without having a physical copy of that book would you be able to love him? No, it is not necessary for me to have a bible to love Him, but it is necessary for us to study if we are to take that love to the next level and know Him.quote:
My appreciation to those whom protected and translated these books which make up the bible could never be fully expressed. I am Catholic because I have read it. Nor can my appreciation of God (who is actually the one who said He would give it to us, and protect it for us) be fully expressed. I am not Catholic because I have not only read it, but understand it, and therefore know that what the Catholic Church teaches deviates significantly from it. This is what God, in His word, calls heresy, and I choose not to be an heretic.quote:
...My love for him is not so shallow that with out a bible I can't love him. This is good! Nor is mine, but without having one, (and actually spending time daily to study it) my love would be so shallow that I might choose to stop at love without the growing intimacy that knowing Him involves.quote:
And I will say again, and again, and again it is impossible to accidentally worship something. Correct, it is impossible to 'accidentally' worship something. It is, however, quite possible to worship something and call it something else because this is what someone else told us to call it....
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RE: Worship Statues? - 1/31/2008 5:39:45 PM
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Catholicandloveit
Posts: 318
Joined: 1/3/2008
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Papa-san quote:
My appreciation to those whom protected and translated these books which make up the bible could never be fully expressed. I am Catholic because I have read it.
Nor can my appreciation of God (who is actually the one who said He would give it to us, and protect it for us) be fully expressed.
I didn't know God had a printing press! I wonder what translation they print! Come on!
quote:
I am not Catholic because I have not only read it, but understand it, and therefore know that what the Catholic Church teaches deviates significantly from it. This is what God, in His word, calls heresy, and I choose not to be an heretic.
Its funny to me when non-catholics think Catholics don't own bibles, but when they find out Catholics do, they don't think we read them, and when they find out Catholics do read them, they then say Catholics don't study them, and if they do then they don't really understand them.
quote:
quote:
And I will say again, and again, and again it is impossible to accidentally worship something. Correct, it is impossible to 'accidentally' worship something. It is, however, quite possible to worship something and call it something else because this is what someone else told us to call it....
If you call it something else, and think its something else it isn't worship.
If you call it something else, and think it worship it is worship.
You cannot be tricked into, or accidentally, worship something.
Pax,
Mary
_____________________________
Blessed be Jesus in the Most Holy Sacrament of the Altar
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RE: Worship Statues? - 1/31/2008 6:03:56 PM
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Papa-san
Posts: 995
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Catholicandloveit
I didn't know God had a printing press! I wonder what translation they print! Come on! Yup! He actually owns a world FULL of printing presses! He has made sure to produce many translations and in many other languages, too! I know He also had to do some spectacularly miraculous things to pry the manuscripts out of the hands of the popes who didn't want people to read it. The reason for this is because then the people would know that the pope's doctrine was shot through with septic tank filler...quote:
Its funny to me when non-catholics think Catholics don't own bibles, but when they find out Catholics do, they don't think we read them, and when they find out Catholics do read them, they then say Catholics don't study them, and if they do then they don't really understand them. I know Catholics have bibles... I remember the great big one on the coffee table in the living room, and the one in the library on it's podium. I don't recall anyone actually reading them or saying that should be done, however, and as far as the comprehension of it, you all know my stance on it: If it was truly comprehended, then... (Edited to keep from having this post removed...)
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RE: Worship Statues? - 2/1/2008 2:00:19 PM
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PeterD
Posts: 425
Joined: 4/27/2007
Status: offline
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Kneeling in worship before statues!
http://www.studylight.org/dic/hbd/view.cgi?number=T3696 kneeling
The common posture when requesting a blessing from one believed able to bestow the blessing. The Hebrew word for kneel comes from the same root as the word for bless. Kneeling is also considered a sign of reverence, obedience, or respect. Kneeling was the posture of prayer (Daniel 6:10; Acts 7:60; Acts 9:40; Acts 20:36; Ephesians 3:14; compare 1 Kings 18:42), acknowledging a superior (2 Kings 1:13; Matthew 17:14; Matthew 27:29; Mark 1:40; Mark 10:17; Luke 5:8), or worship of God (1 Kings 8:54), Jesus (Philippians 2:10), or idols (1 Kings 19:18; Isaiah 66:3 where blessing an idol refers to kneeling before an idol). See Blessing and Cursing.
PeterD
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