|
Users viewing this topic:
none
|
|
Login  | |
|
RE: Worship Statues? - 1/5/2008 10:00:35 PM
|
|
|
Papa-san
Posts: 995
Joined: 4/12/2006
Status: offline
|
If you think she can hear and respond to your prayers to her, you have attributed abilities to her that are not expressed in scripture! Then add to that the fact that there are a million or more praying to her in this way right now, and you can easily see the problem... (I hope)
|
|
|
|
|
RE: Worship Statues? - 1/5/2008 10:16:02 PM
|
|
|
Catholicandloveit
Posts: 318
Joined: 1/3/2008
Status: offline
|
quote:
ORIGINAL: Papa-san
If you think she can hear and respond to your prayers to her, you have attributed abilities to her that are not expressed in scripture! Then add to that the fact that there are a million or more praying to her in this way right now, and you can easily see the problem... (I hope)
How does this not apply to Mary??? (From my last post.)
Scripture indicates, those in heaven are aware of the prayers of those on earth. Example - Revelation 5:8, where John depicts the saints in heaven offering our prayers to God under the form of "golden bowls full of incense, which are the prayers of the saints."
If the saints are offering our prayers to God, then they must be aware of our prayers and they intercede for us.
Some might argue that in this passage the prayers being offered were not addressed to the saints in heaven, but directly to God. This argument however only strengthens the fact that those in heaven can hear our prayers because it would mean then that the saints would be aware of our prayers even when they are not directed to them!
J-M-J
Mary
< Message edited by Catholicandloveit -- 1/5/2008 10:22:09 PM >
|
|
|
|
|
RE: Worship Statues? - 1/6/2008 12:12:44 AM
|
|
|
PeterD
Posts: 425
Joined: 4/27/2007
Status: offline
|
quote:
ORIGINAL: Mannamuncher
quote:
ORIGINAL: martyfran
quote:
ORIGINAL: Papa-san
Kneeling before a statue of someone else is yet another violation of scripture! Is there a number as to how many of these violations of Gods word will be enough to convince you?
If my baptist friend kneels in front of his bed when he prays, does that mean he is worshiping his bed?
Is he talking to the bed ?
Does he think the bed is greater than him ?
Does he think the bed can help him somehow ?
Your answer is impertinent and plain silly !
Tell us why you kneel before a statue ?
Tell us what is going through your mind ?
Hello Mannamuncher
I was wondering when I'm at church, LCMS, during the Lord's supper we go up and kneel around the railing which is around the Altar. I fold my hands to receive the body(bread) and the pastor gives me the cup to drink the blood(wine). All the while we are kneeling and receiving a blessing around the altar then I go back to my pew to give room for the next member to drink and eat.
Now during the service our three pastors at different times show reference by slightly bowing before the altar meaning where the pastors read from and pray from and consencrate the bread and wine from.
What is so special about the kneeling and the bowing around the altar?
What is it about the altar....
Matthew 23:16-22
Seven Woes
16"Woe to you, blind guides! You say, 'If anyone swears by the temple, it means nothing; but if anyone swears by the gold of the temple, he is bound by his oath.' 17You blind fools! Which is greater: the gold, or the temple that makes the gold sacred? 18You also say, 'If anyone swears by the altar, it means nothing; but if anyone swears by the gift on it, he is bound by his oath.' 19You blind men! Which is greater: the gift, or the altar that makes the gift sacred? 20Therefore, he who swears by the altar swears by it and by everything on it. 21And he who swears by the temple swears by it and by the one who dwells in it. 22And he who swears by heaven swears by God's throne and by the one who sits on it.
PeterD
|
|
|
|
|
RE: Worship Statues? - 1/6/2008 11:40:12 AM
|
|
|
Mannamuncher
Posts: 2921
Joined: 4/13/2005
Status: offline
|
quote:
ORIGINAL: PeterD
What is so special about the kneeling and the bowing around the altar?
What is it about the altar....
Kneel in a meadow to pray to God...
Kneel in my office and pray to God...
Kneel before a statue of Mary and pray to God ?
(NOT) Priceless !
_____________________________
Effectus non excedit virtutem suae causae [the effect cannot exceed the power of its cause]
Grace may be free, but it may not be chosen...
|
|
|
|
|
RE: Worship Statues? - 1/6/2008 11:46:37 AM
|
|
|
Mannamuncher
Posts: 2921
Joined: 4/13/2005
Status: offline
|
quote:
ORIGINAL: Catholicandloveit
quote:
ORIGINAL: Mannamuncher
Tell us what is going through your mind ?
Kneeling in front of Mary for example –
I am praying/conversing with Mary and asking for her prayers to her son for me, I tell Mary my needs/wants/worries and ask for her intercession on my behalf. I do this through prayers that honor her.
I can and do kneel in front of Mary and pray directly to God, the only thing going through my head well kneeling in front of a statue is my desire to love and worship the Lord.
OK, you are kneeling in front of Mary's statue
and praying to God ? That makes no sense at all !
I want to call my wife and tell her something,
so I called her mother instead of her ? HUH ?
She will eventually get the message, but why
talk to the WRONG person, when I can go direct ?
You say you desire to worship The Lord yet-
you are kneeling in front of Mary ? Peculiar !
Looks like you desire to worship Mary...
_____________________________
Effectus non excedit virtutem suae causae [the effect cannot exceed the power of its cause]
Grace may be free, but it may not be chosen...
|
|
|
|
|
RE: Worship Statues? - 1/6/2008 7:13:25 PM
|
|
|
Catholicandloveit
Posts: 318
Joined: 1/3/2008
Status: offline
|
quote:
ORIGINAL: Mannamuncher
You say you desire to worship The Lord yet-
you are kneeling in front of Mary ? Peculiar !
Looks like you desire to worship Mary...
Well at least you don’t seam to think I am talking to a statue anymore. I can’t explain it any other way then I did in post 302.
Pax,
Mary
|
|
|
|
|
RE: Worship Statues? - 1/6/2008 8:03:08 PM
|
|
|
Doghouse
Posts: 889
Joined: 8/25/2007
From: The Buckle of the Bible Belt
Status: offline
|
quote:
If you think she can hear and respond to your prayers to her, you have attributed abilities to her that are not expressed in scripture! The ability to be tied to a stake and set afire, only not to burn and be consummed by the fire - is not spelled out in Scriptures either.
_____________________________
When someone virtuous turns away from virtue to commit iniquity...it is because of the iniquity he committed that he must die. But if he turns from the wickedness he has committed, he does what is right and just, he shall preserve his life" - Ez 18:25-28
|
|
|
|
|
RE: Worship Statues? - 1/7/2008 12:13:35 AM
|
|
|
Papa-san
Posts: 995
Joined: 4/12/2006
Status: offline
|
quote:
ORIGINAL: Doghouse
quote:
If you think she can hear and respond to your prayers to her, you have attributed abilities to her that are not expressed in scripture! The ability to be tied to a stake and set afire, only not to burn and be consummed by the fire - is not spelled out in Scriptures either.
Wow!
I didn't know this happened to Mary! Though the news doesn't surprise me coming out of the "Invent-o-Matic" church...
|
|
|
|
|
RE: Worship Statues? - 1/8/2008 2:20:06 PM
|
|
|
WesP
Posts: 2451
Joined: 11/28/2005
From: Where God needs me to be
Status: offline
|
quote:
Scripture indicates, those in heaven are aware of the prayers of those on earth. Example - Revelation 5:8, where John depicts the saints in heaven offering our prayers to God under the form of "golden bowls full of incense, which are the prayers of the saints."
Many believe that those saints are not the ones on earth at this time.
RE 5:8 Now when He had taken the scroll, the four living creatures and the twenty-four elders fell down before the Lamb, each having a harp, and golden bowls full of incense, which are the prayers of the saints.
RE 5:9 And they sang a new song, saying: "You are worthy to take the scroll, And to open its seals; For You were slain, And have redeemed us to God by Your blood Out of every tribe and tongue and people and nation,
RE 5:10 And have made us kings and priests to our God; And we shall reign on the earth." Revelation 5:8-10
LINK
Prayers of the saints: The 24 elders have golden bowls with incense, which represent the prayers of saints. The altar of incense in the Temple, was a type, illustrating the prayers of the saints who worship before the throne of God. Like fragrant smell of incense and the smoke the drifts toward heaven, prayers are pictured as incense before the throne.
The elders, representing all of the redeemed bowing before the lamb, with their harps and prayers stand as sympathetic representatives of all the saints.
_____________________________
Peace,
Wes
___________________________________
<--- BTW, this is the true function of corn! It is to help the oil industry and its functionaries, not detract from them! 
|
|
|
|
|
RE: Worship Statues? - 1/8/2008 11:37:26 PM
|
|
|
gatolover
Posts: 544
Joined: 6/23/2006
Status: offline
|
PeterD asked:
quote:
What is so special about the kneeling and the bowing around the altar?
Mannamuncher responded:
quote:
Kneel in my office and pray to God...
Priceless...
|
|
|
|
|
RE: Worship Statues? - 1/8/2008 11:39:31 PM
|
|
|
gatolover
Posts: 544
Joined: 6/23/2006
Status: offline
|
Hi Wes,
quote:
Many believe that those saints are not the ones on earth at this time.
Well, with all due respect, "many" believe all sorts of things. Who's right?
Pax Christi,
gatolover
|
|
|
|
|
RE: Worship Statues? - 1/9/2008 10:34:51 AM
|
|
|
Catholicandloveit
Posts: 318
Joined: 1/3/2008
Status: offline
|
quote:
ORIGINAL: WesSavedByGrace
quote:
Scripture indicates, those in heaven are aware of the prayers of those on earth. Example - Revelation 5:8, where John depicts the saints in heaven offering our prayers to God under the form of "golden bowls full of incense, which are the prayers of the saints."
Many believe that those saints are not the ones on earth at this time.
Do you think they are in Heaven, on Earth, or neither??
|
|
|
|
|
RE: Worship Statues? - 1/9/2008 10:44:27 AM
|
|
|
WesP
Posts: 2451
Joined: 11/28/2005
From: Where God needs me to be
Status: offline
|
quote:
ORIGINAL: Catholicandloveit
quote:
ORIGINAL: WesSavedByGrace
quote:
Scripture indicates, those in heaven are aware of the prayers of those on earth. Example - Revelation 5:8, where John depicts the saints in heaven offering our prayers to God under the form of "golden bowls full of incense, which are the prayers of the saints."
Many believe that those saints are not the ones on earth at this time.
Do you think they are in Heaven, on Earth, or neither??
I think that these saints are just are the excerpt I used states:
The altar of incense in the Temple, was a type, illustrating the prayers of the saints who worship before the throne of God.
To give saints in heaven the ability to hear our prayers does not seem to be consistent with the biblical description of heaven at all. In heaven, there is no sorrow, so how do you justify giving knowledge of this world's suffering to them? Does that not go against living in perfection?
_____________________________
Peace,
Wes
___________________________________
<--- BTW, this is the true function of corn! It is to help the oil industry and its functionaries, not detract from them!
|
|
|
|
|
RE: Worship Statues? - 1/9/2008 11:00:46 AM
|
|
|
mcleod
Posts: 1076
Joined: 4/4/2006
Status: offline
|
I do not know if this has been written before but the writer in Hebrews states that because of what Jesus Christ did on the cross by sacrificing his blood we have access to the Father in heaven whom we are to be praying to in the beginning. Remember the outline that some one keeps thinking it is a pray. Jesus said when you pray do it like this Our Father who art in heaven. Not some person that died before us. This is where a false thing or an idea that the evil one puts in our minds to get us off the tract of God. Remember the evil one was to busy and could not get there on time to help Baal prophets in starting fire from heaven. Please God is every where hears everyone. Doesn't have to have angels or saints in heaven do his work for him.
|
|
|
|
|
RE: Worship Statues? - 1/9/2008 11:27:47 AM
|
|
|
Catholicandloveit
Posts: 318
Joined: 1/3/2008
Status: offline
|
quote:
ORIGINAL: WesSavedByGrace
I think that these saints are just are the excerpt I used states:
The altar of incense in the Temple, was a type, illustrating the prayers of the saints who worship before the throne of God.
To give saints in heaven the ability to hear our prayers does not seem to be consistent with the biblical description of heaven at all. In heaven, there is no sorrow, so how do you justify giving knowledge of this world's suffering to them? Does that not go against living in perfection?
Rev 4:1 After this I looked, and there before me was a door standing open in heaven. (NIV)
I think that RE 4 is clearly about the saints in heaven so in RE 5 the saints would still be in heaven.
PAX,
Mary
|
|
|
|
|
RE: Worship Statues? - 1/9/2008 11:35:55 AM
|
|
|
WesP
Posts: 2451
Joined: 11/28/2005
From: Where God needs me to be
Status: offline
|
quote:
ORIGINAL: Catholicandloveit
quote:
ORIGINAL: WesSavedByGrace
I think that these saints are just are the excerpt I used states:
The altar of incense in the Temple, was a type, illustrating the prayers of the saints who worship before the throne of God.
To give saints in heaven the ability to hear our prayers does not seem to be consistent with the biblical description of heaven at all. In heaven, there is no sorrow, so how do you justify giving knowledge of this world's suffering to them? Does that not go against living in perfection?
Rev 4:1 After this I looked, and there before me was a door standing open in heaven. (NIV)
I think that RE 4 is clearly about the saints in heaven so in RE 5 the saints would still be in heaven.
PAX,
Mary
Mary,
Let's look at this scenario. We agree the saints are in heaven. Kewl! 
Next, we need to decide where the prayers are originating. I can certainly espouse the belief that even after we arrive in heaven we will still pray to God and praise Him in doing so. Can you agree with this?
If so, then how do you justify those prayers as resulting from prayers of people here on earth? Can they not simply be the prayers of those saints?
If so, then why would anyone add a belief to the scriptures if there exists this ambiguity?
_____________________________
Peace,
Wes
___________________________________
<--- BTW, this is the true function of corn! It is to help the oil industry and its functionaries, not detract from them!
|
|
|
|
|
RE: Worship Statues? - 1/9/2008 1:13:26 PM
|
|
|
WesP
Posts: 2451
Joined: 11/28/2005
From: Where God needs me to be
Status: offline
|
quote:
RE 5:8 Each of the elders held a harp and gold bowls filled with incense, which are the prayers of the holy ones.
If these are their own prayers why bother to say who the prayers are from? And wouldn't everyone in heaven be holy why would that distinction need to be made?
Ah, but these are the Elders holding the bowls, not all the saints. They are representatives of the saints. That is the distinction. While all are holy, the Elders are just that: elders (like in a church).
quote:
If so, then why would anyone add a belief to the scriptures if there exists this ambiguity?
There is ambiguity in almost everything in this world, and additions to this ambiguity come from many sorces.
I do not espouse adding anything to what is not clear. I take the scriptures for what they say and do not espouse a doctrine that is not stated. There is no reason to believe that any person will understand all things from God, but the things that are imperative are very clear. One can speculate, but that is not a directive to fill in the blanks.
_____________________________
Peace,
Wes
___________________________________
<--- BTW, this is the true function of corn! It is to help the oil industry and its functionaries, not detract from them!
|
|
|
|
|
RE: Worship Statues? - 1/9/2008 1:31:52 PM
|
|
|
Catholicandloveit
Posts: 318
Joined: 1/3/2008
Status: offline
|
quote:
ORIGINAL: WesSavedByGrace
Ah, but these are the Elders holding the bowls, not all the saints. They are representatives of the saints. That is the distinction. While all are holy, the Elders are just that: elders (like in a church).
So the elders, who are in heaven, are offering the prayers of the saints, who are also in heaven, for them?
Pax,
Mary
< Message edited by Catholicandloveit -- 1/9/2008 1:48:48 PM >
|
|
|
|
|
RE: Worship Statues? - 1/9/2008 1:43:49 PM
|
|
|
WesP
Posts: 2451
Joined: 11/28/2005
From: Where God needs me to be
Status: offline
|
quote:
ORIGINAL: WesSavedByGrace
Ah, but these are the Elders holding the bowls, not all the saints. They are representatives of the saints. That is the distinction. While all are holy, the Elders are just that: elders (like in a church).
So the elders, who are in heaven, are offering the prayers of the saints, who are also in heaven, for them?
Pax,
Mary
Reread this:
Prayers of the saints: The 24 elders have golden bowls with incense, which represent the prayers of saints. The altar of incense in the Temple, was a type, illustrating the prayers of the saints who worship before the throne of God. Like fragrant smell of incense and the smoke the drifts toward heaven, prayers are pictured as incense before the throne.
The elders, representing all of the redeemed bowing before the lamb, with their harps and prayers stand as sympathetic representatives of all the saints.
_____________________________
Peace,
Wes
___________________________________
<--- BTW, this is the true function of corn! It is to help the oil industry and its functionaries, not detract from them!
|
|
|
|
|
RE: Worship Statues? - 1/9/2008 2:14:02 PM
|
|
|
Papa-san
Posts: 995
Joined: 4/12/2006
Status: offline
|
quote:
ORIGINAL: Catholicandloveit
Scripture indicates, those in heaven are aware of the prayers of those on earth. Example - Revelation 5:8, where John depicts the saints in heaven offering our prayers to God under the form of "golden bowls full of incense, which are the prayers of the saints." Revelation 5 makes absolutely NO reference as to the source of these prayers. You cannot say that they are offering 'our' prayers, because it doesn't say they are 'ours'...quote:
If the saints are offering our prayers to God, then they must be aware of our prayers and they intercede for us. We don't know that they are 'our' prayers, so the rest is supposition... invented based on assumption. quote:
Some might argue that in this passage the prayers being offered were not addressed to the saints in heaven, but directly to God. This argument however only strengthens the fact that those in heaven can hear our prayers because it would mean then that the saints would be aware of our prayers even when they are not directed to them! There is no indication that they have any awareness of what these prayers are or where they are from. I would be one to argue this, as scripture clearly states over and over and over again that we are to direct our prayers to the Father through Jesus. It also specifically states that those prayers directed to others are indicative of idolotry which is one of the things that angers God the most... Nowhere does it state that they have ANY clue as to the nature of these prayers. They are simply a resource the elders present... Anything beyond this is, again, mere supposition, and therefore invalid.
I apologize that my 'invent-o-matic' comment seems to have offended you, but with so many Catholic doctrines built on assumption, desire, and supposition, I cannot honestly call it anything but that...
|
|
|
|
|
RE: Worship Statues? - 1/9/2008 2:21:47 PM
|
|
|
Papa-san
Posts: 995
Joined: 4/12/2006
Status: offline
|
quote:
ORIGINAL: Catholicandloveit
There is ambiguity in almost everything in this world, and additions to this ambiguity come from many sorces.
The problem has arisen from humans deciding that they can take ambiguity and make a doctrine based on it. The very nature of ambiguity makes this a very foolish practice. When in doubt, leave it alone and understand that it is a mystery we are not supposed to fully understand. We do the best we can with it, and leave the rest alone. That way, we don't get Him angry by making a wrong assumption, and anger Him further by teaching these things as fact!
|
|
|
|
|
RE: Worship Statues? - 1/9/2008 2:25:53 PM
|
|
|
WesP
Posts: 2451
Joined: 11/28/2005
From: Where God needs me to be
Status: offline
|
quote:
ORIGINAL: Papa-san
quote:
ORIGINAL: Catholicandloveit
There is ambiguity in almost everything in this world, and additions to this ambiguity come from many sorces.
The problem has arisen from humans deciding that they can take ambiguity and make a doctrine based on it. The very nature of ambiguity makes this a very foolish practice. When in doubt, leave it alone and understand that it is a mystery we are not supposed to fully understand. We do the best we can with it, and leave the rest alone. That way, we don't get Him angry by making a wrong assumption, and anger Him further by teaching these things as fact!
Papa-san,
The absolute worst effect of doing this is stated in the book of Revelation itself, which is where the above argument is coming from.
Revelation 22
18 I warn everyone who hears the words of the prophecy of this book: If anyone adds anything to them, God will add to him the plagues described in this book.
19 And if anyone takes words away from this book of prophecy, God will take away from him his share in the tree of life and in the holy city, which are described in this book.
_____________________________
Peace,
Wes
___________________________________
<--- BTW, this is the true function of corn! It is to help the oil industry and its functionaries, not detract from them!
|
|
|
|
 New Messages |
 No New Messages |
 Hot Topic w/ New Messages |
 Hot Topic w/o New Messages |
 Locked w/ New Messages |
 Locked w/o New Messages |
|
| |
Forum Tools
Printable Version
