Repetitive prayer? (Full Version)

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Fritzpw_Admin -> Repetitive prayer? (4/11/2005 1:53:18 PM)

This topic is neverending. So as to help keep things from constantly being repeated or asked we've decided to create a perpetual discussion on the topic.

Why do Catholics pray the rosary? Why do protestants disregard the rosary?

Why do some protestants speak out against the rosary but repeat the Lord's prayer?

Discuss this difference in doctrine here.



SaintJVMan -> RE: Repetitive prayer? (4/12/2005 12:03:51 AM)

When your child says I love you, I love you, I love you! Do you rebuke him and tell him that that’s only vain repetition?



S.Benedict -> RE: Repetitive prayer? (4/12/2005 12:21:53 AM)

Is Jesus against Catholic Prayers?
By Kenneth J. Howell




This Rock
Volume 15, Number 5
May/June 2004

OBJECTOR: Don’t Catholics engage in many standard and repetitious prayers, both in their Masses and in their private lives? Aren’t prayers in your religious services dictated by the Church? And don’t Catholics use things like the rosary and the Divine Mercy chaplet to pray? These types of prayers seem to me to be mechanical and insincere as well as against scriptural teaching.

CATHOLIC: For the sake of clarity, I think it’s important to distinguish between standardized prayers and repetitious prayers. The prayers that are used publicly in a Mass or other religious ceremony (e.g., consecration of a Church building) are prescribed by the Church, but they are not repetitious in the way that the rosary or the Divine Mercy chaplet is.

OBJECTOR: It’s hard for me to see how standardized prayers could be from the heart. If a priest has to read a prayer from a book, how can he really be sincere?

CATHOLIC: I can assure you that a prescribed or written prayer can be just as much from the heart as any prayer off the cuff. And when a priest reads or recites a prayer in the Mass, he can be as sincere as if he had composed the prayer himself. One of the most important reasons that the Church provides these prayers is that it doesn’t want the people of God to be misguided by the individual inclinations or, even worse, the false teachings that an individual priest might fall into unknowingly. Standardized prayers are a way of exercising the pastoral care of Christ in his body, the Church. I hope you’ll agree that we cannot and should not judge the sincerity of another person’s heart by the prayers he uses, especially when those prayers come from a tradition that we are not familiar with.

OBJECTOR: Perhaps we should not be quick to judge another’s sincerity, but the use of repetitious prayers is clearly against Scripture. Read Matthew 6:7–8. "And in praying do not heap up empty phrases as the Gentiles do; for they think that they will be heard for their many words. Do not be like them, for your Father knows what you need before you ask him." Jesus says explicitly that we should not "heap up empty phrases." You may be aware that the word battalogeo is used only once in the New Testament: here in Matthew 6:7. It seems to be a word of special importance. It also can be translated "to babble on" or "to repeat endlessly." If the Hail Mary is not a vain repetition, I don’t know what is.

CATHOLIC: That is an interesting text, but why did you stop at the end of verse 8? In verse 9, Jesus says explicitly, "Pray then like this." He then goes on to teach us to pray the Lord’s Prayer (the Our Father). If Jesus was against standardized prayers, why did he give us one to pray? And I presume you would agree that he wanted us to pray this on many occasions.

OBJECTOR: Perhaps, but I think Jesus was giving us more a model of prayer here than something we should repeat mindlessly.

CATHOLIC: I agree that the Lord’s Prayer is a model of prayer, one that we can use as a basis for other prayers. But since he says explicitly, "Pray like this," I don’t think we can exclude a repetitious use of this prayer. After all, if this is a perfect prayer coming directly from the mouth of the Lord himself, we might be in danger of ignoring his command if we don’t pray it often.

OBJECTOR: Well, I don’t have any objection to praying it, but we should clearly avoid the "babbling" and "vain repetitions" that Jesus condemned in Matthew 6:7–8. The many repetitious prayers used in Catholic piety are obvious examples of violating Jesus’ prohibition.

CATHOLIC: Then I suppose you also would condemn Eastern Orthodox Christians who use the Jesus Prayer. This prayer is very simple: "Lord Jesus Christ, have mercy on me a sinner." In eastern Christianity, the monks and lay people would repeat this prayer throughout the day as a way of communing with God.

OBJECTOR: I have never heard of that prayer, but yes, I would say that any Christian who uses repetitious prayers like that would be violating Jesus’ words. How can such a prayer really be meaningful? It can even deceive a person into thinking that he is praying from the heart when in fact he is just babbling phrases.

CATHOLIC: Not all repetition is vain. Consider the prayers spoken of in Revelation 4:8 offered day and night without ceasing: "Holy, holy, holy, is the Lord God Almighty, who was and is and is to come!" Another repetitious prayer pleasing to God is contained in Psalm 136: "For his steadfast love endures for ever." This phrase is repeated over twenty-five times. Finally, Matthew 26:44 tells us that Jesus himself prayed the same prayer three times in the garden in Gethsemane.

OBJECTOR: Your examples from Scripture are heartfelt prayers directed to God, not vain prayers directed to Mary.

CATHOLIC: You may feel comfortable in judging the hearts of other Christians, but I do not. I don’t think one person can know whether another person is really sincere or not in his prayer. I prefer to follow Jesus’ command: "Judge not, that you be not judged" (Matt. 7:1). Charity toward our fellow Christians should presume sincerity until we have clear evidence to the contrary. Remember what God said to Samuel the prophet: "For the Lord sees not as man sees; man looks on the outward appearance, but the Lord looks on the heart" (1 Sam. 16:7).

OBJECTOR: Well, I agree that we cannot judge another. But as you said, "until we have clear evidence to the contrary." It’s clear enough to me that saying the Hail Mary fifty-three times in about twenty minutes counts as vain repetition.

CATHOLIC: I suppose that would be natural for you think since you have never had any experience with such prayers. From your standpoint it looks impossible to be praying from the heart when such repetitious prayers are used. But you don’t understand that the purpose of the rosary is to meditate on the life, death and resurrection of Christ.

The fact that the Hail Mary begins with the words from Luke 1:28, 42 recalling the pivotal event in salvation history—when Jesus became incarnate—is reason enough to pray these words day and night. But there is even more to this devotional prayer. For example, in the first sorrowful mystery, we meditate on Jesus’ agony in the garden of Gethsemane. The other meditations guide us through the other mysteries of our faith.

OBJECTOR: Well, the only kind of prayers that I think can be truly from the heart are freely composed or extemporaneous prayers.

CATHOLIC: Perhaps a reminder is in order here that non-Catholic Christians often lead others in a standardized "Sinners Prayer." Furthermore, no Christians would deny that reading Scripture over and over again for the purpose of entering more deeply into the life of Christ is pleasing to God. So perhaps there is a subtle bias against Catholic standardized prayers. Whether using standardized or extemporaneous prayer, Catholics have the same goal of always praying from the heart.

OBJECTOR: If that is true, then I would say that there is a disconnect between their intention and the methods or types of prayer used. These standardized and repetitious prayers cannot be from the heart. Maybe these prayers are just another example of the "traditions of men" that Jesus condemns in Mark 7:8.

CATHOLIC: These prayers allow us to participate in the prayer of the whole body of Christ, since many others use the same prayers. It has the effect of binding our hearts with our fellow believers. But it is also important to know that standard and repetitious prayers are just a small part of the wealth of the Catholic Church’s teachings on prayer.

OBJECTOR: Well, all that non-Catholics are exposed to are these kinds of prayers.

CATHOLIC: Maybe so, but to the insider, to the person who prays as a Catholic, there is a much richer treasure of prayer life. As an example, take the fourth century bishop of Constantinople, St. John Chrysostom. He says that "prayer and converse with God is a supreme good; it is a partnership and union with God. The prayer from the heart—continuous throughout the day and night" (On Prayer, 6). You can see that this father of ancient Catholicism instructs us clearly in prayer from the heart. Whether we use repetition or free-flowing thoughts, the important thing is that our prayer rises from a loving heart to a loving God. This is the essence of the Catholic understanding of prayer. In fact, Chrysostom goes on to say, "I speak of prayer, not words. It is the longing for God, love too deep for words, a gift not given by man but by God’s grace." The apostle Paul says, "We do not know how to pray as we ought, but the Spirit himself intercedes for us with sighs too deep for words" (Rom 8:26). Whether we are at worship in Mass, in a group of Catholics praying, or at home in our closet, our desire is to reach out to God. St. John Chrysostom leads us to the ideal of prayer in obedience to Paul’s command in 1 Thessalonians 5:17 to "pray constantly." Listen to him again:

"Our spirit should be quick to reach out toward God not only when it is engaged in meditation; at other times also, when it is carrying out its duties, caring for the needy, performing works of charity, giving generously in service to others, our spirit should long for God and call him to mind, so that these works may be seasoned with the salt of God’s love, and so make a palatable offering to the Lord of the universe. Throughout the whole of our lives we may enjoy the benefit that comes from prayer if we devote a great deal of time to it."



DaveW -> RE: Repetitive prayer? (4/12/2005 6:40:05 PM)

Benedict:
I will take a stab at some of these objections as well, but NOT from a catholic viewpoint.

quote:

ORIGINAL: S.Benedict
OBJECTOR: Don’t Catholics engage in many standard and repetitious prayers, both in their Masses and in their private lives? Aren’t prayers in your religious services dictated by the Church? And don’t Catholics use things like the rosary and the Divine Mercy chaplet to pray? These types of prayers seem to me to be mechanical and insincere as well as against scriptural teaching.

OBJECTOR: It’s hard for me to see how standardized prayers could be from the heart. If a priest has to read a prayer from a book, how can he really be sincere?


We are told in Luke 4.16 that Jesus was in the synagogue every Saturday. The majority of the synagogue service is repetitve prayer. The only part not repetitive is the "drash" or sermon based on the Torah and Prophetic (haftara) scripture portions read. In the first century the Shemona Esrai, the Kaddish and the Alenu were the heart of the service and they are used in synagogues today almost unchanged. There are various blessings and they are unchanged. The Torah and Haftara scrolls were read in an annual cycle.

If He was in the synagogue, He prayed these fixed prayers.

Ok, that was Jesus. What about Paul? At the end of acts he gives this account of himself:

Act 28:17 After three days Paul called together those who were the leading men of the Jews, and when they came together, he began saying to them, "Brethren, though I had done nothing against our people or the customs of our fathers, yet I was delivered as a prisoner from Jerusalem into the hands of the Romans.

What was happening when he was arrested? Worshiping in the Temple. More repetitive prayer. He testified that he did nothing against the customs of the fathers, which included repetitive prayer.


quote:

OBJECTOR: Perhaps we should not be quick to judge another’s sincerity, but the use of repetitious prayers is clearly against Scripture. Read Matthew 6:7–8. "And in praying do not heap up empty phrases as the Gentiles do; for they think that they will be heard for their many words.


You notice He said "gentiles." Not the Pharasees, not the priests. Perhaps it is in the "empty phrases" that usless repetition occurs. Jesus is speaking to men that go with Him to synagogue every week, who repeated the Shemona Esrei and Kaddish. These prayers are not empty, they are full of the Word of God. In fact, the Lord's Prayer is based on the Kaddish. If you read the 2 side by side it is immediatly evident.
quote:

That is an interesting text, but why did you stop at the end of verse 8? In verse 9, Jesus says explicitly, "Pray then like this." He then goes on to teach us to pray the Lord’s Prayer (the Our Father). If Jesus was against standardized prayers, why did he give us one to pray? And I presume you would agree that he wanted us to pray this on many occasions.

OBJECTOR: Perhaps, but I think Jesus was giving us more a model of prayer here than something we should repeat mindlessly.

Who said it was "mindless?" Of course anything can become mindless or lack depth, even if sponteanous. It is in how we approach it.

quote:

CATHOLIC: I agree that the Lord’s Prayer is a model of prayer, one that we can use as a basis for other prayers. But since he says explicitly, "Pray like this," I don’t think we can exclude a repetitious use of this prayer. After all, if this is a perfect prayer coming directly from the mouth of the Lord himself, we might be in danger of ignoring his command if we don’t pray it often.

OBJECTOR: Well, I don’t have any objection to praying it, but we should clearly avoid the "babbling" and "vain repetitions" that Jesus condemned in Matthew 6:7–8. The many repetitious prayers used in Catholic piety are obvious examples of violating Jesus’ prohibition.

How familiar are you with catholic prayer? Or Jewish prayer? Before you go making those accusations find out what you are talking about.
quote:

OBJECTOR: Well, the only kind of prayers that I think can be truly from the heart are freely composed or extemporaneous prayers.


That is your opinion. I would challenge you to tape record these extemporaneous prayers and see how much meat they have. They are often just as repetitive as those written down. They can be just as mindless.

quote:

OBJECTOR: I would say that there is a disconnect between their intention and the methods or types of prayer used. These standardized and repetitious prayers cannot be from the heart. Maybe these prayers are just another example of the "traditions of men" that Jesus condemns in Mark 7:8.


Can you show me in scripture that Jesus or Paul or Peter or James ever eschewed the repetitive prayers of the temple or synagogue? If not, then you should re-evaluate your position on this. If Jesus and the disciples prayed in the synagogue every week, went to the temple at least 3 times a year and prayed there, and there was not condemnation of the communal rote prayers there, what basis do you have to insist on spontaneous prayer? And how does saying the same prayers stop anyone from inserting their own spontaneous additions? Judiasm certainly allows this.



S.Benedict -> RE: Repetitive prayer? (4/12/2005 9:07:04 PM)

I am Roman Catholic. I pray all these prayers meditating on them and truly meaning them each time I pray. I am not saying that there are those Roman Catholics who do not repetitively babble as scripture tells us not to do. Jesus repeated the same three prayer in the garden of Gethsemane. Were His prayers in vain? I have a hard time believing so. I believe that if you pray from the heart, regardless of whether repetitively, you are not agianst scripture. PS - the rosary meditates on very distinct points in Christ's life and on very strong points of the Catholic faith. If one truly prays it teh correct way, one prays while meditating on these.



sdaw -> RE: Repetitive prayer? (4/12/2005 10:33:53 PM)

Not to be wry, but I wonder if those who object to repetitive prayer in the Rosary ever counted the number of 'justs' in the average Protestant prayer.

Eternal rest grant onto him, O Lord!



sadiebelle -> RE: Repetitive prayer? (4/13/2005 10:53:48 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: sdaw

Not to be wry, but I wonder if those who object to repetitive prayer in the Rosary ever counted the number of 'justs' in the average Protestant prayer.

Eternal rest grant onto him, O Lord!

I'm not sure I know what you mean???



GoodME -> RE: Repetitive prayer? (4/13/2005 1:47:00 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: sdaw

Not to be wry, but I wonder if those who object to repetitive prayer in the Rosary ever counted the number of 'justs' in the average Protestant prayer.

Eternal rest grant onto him, O Lord!


ROFL!

Seriously, though - I think there is room for both types. I am amazed at people who criticize others for talking to God, because they are not talking "the right way".

Talk about a "works of the law" mentality......



TheoJunkie -> RE: Repetitive prayer? (4/13/2005 5:52:14 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: sdaw

Not to be wry, but I wonder if those who object to repetitive prayer in the Rosary ever counted the number of 'justs' in the average Protestant prayer.

Eternal rest grant onto him, O Lord!


LOL.

I know exactly what you mean.

But... um, just, um, is just, um, an interjection because um, you just, um, can't put your words togethter, um, or just um it um seems like when you hear yourself um talking it's um like being a caller on a radio talk show without your radio turned down.

However... for some, I think they are guilty of "babbling" in a misguided thought that God likes a constant flow (a.k.a. afraid of silence).



TheoJunkie -> RE: Repetitive prayer? (4/13/2005 6:02:06 PM)

As a protestant, I have no problem with repetitive prayer or formulative prayer (including the rosary), IF, as S.B. said, it is edifying and produces focus on what is important.

There is a danger-- but not inherent to the practice-- of slipping into the wrong mindset (repetition for repetition's sake). To that end, I would say the only problem I have with the rosary is when it is "assigned" (especially assigned without due counselling as to the reason and goals). Well.. the other rosary issue is Hail Mary, but that's a different subject.

Yes, SOME protestants are guilty of the same sort of thing. Not the rosary, but, for example, robotically ending all prayers/gatherings with the Lord's Prayer (is it truly required every time?)... ending every prayer with some catch phrase ("And all the people said, AMEN"), etc.

Repetition is not the problem-- the problem is when it becomes thought of as a magic bullet (This is what get's God's attention for real, etc). ... same thing with reading the bible. So great-- you've read each Gospel every month for a year. But did you HEAR anything during the exercise?



GoodME -> RE: Repetitive prayer? (4/13/2005 6:18:34 PM)

quote:

Repetition is not the problem-- the problem is when it becomes thought of as a magic bullet (This is what get's God's attention for real, etc). ... same thing with reading the bible. So great-- you've read each Gospel every month for a year. But did you HEAR anything during the exercise?

Consider this - Why do we pray to an omniscient, omnipowerful God? Doesn't He know what we desire, doesn't He know what we need?

Isn't the prayer for us, in a way? To help us work through what God has given us and to try to rejoice in it, cherish it, or sometimes make sense of it?

Can the repitition of the Rosary focus the Faithful on something "not secular' and "not wordly' and "not Spiritual"? Is it not true that in this place or state of mind, we may finally shut out enough distraction to hear what God might be telling us?

Just a thought.



1lightseeker -> RE: Repetitive prayer? (4/14/2005 12:14:49 AM)

It's like a song that you love so much you listen to it over and over. You may not consciously think of the meaning of all the words every time, but there's enough memory there to take you to that original place where you first understood it, or it first touched you. Whether I'm listening to a "sermon" for the first time, or a prayer for the hundredth time, it's always a struggle to stay tuned in. It's not the prayer's fault, it's my lazy brain. But my attention is just a breath away from being restored when I catch myself. Lord have mercy. I don't think I can ask that too many times.



DaveW -> RE: Repetitive prayer? (4/17/2005 12:40:10 AM)

quote:

It's like a song that you love so much you listen to it over and over.

As I was playing bass on the worship team this morning, I thought about this thread.

Repetitive prayer is like playing the notes to a piece of music. Does rehearsing a piece or playing the same song you played last month make it less sincere than something improvised?



catherwood -> RE: Repetitive prayer? (4/17/2005 8:26:03 AM)

I love the picture of Gandalf at the Bridge of Khazadun when he is facing the Balrag! Go Gandalf! [:)]

I think people have brought up good points. True prayer is from the heart with submission and affection. Charles Spurgeon use to say something to the effect that often times we talk to the Lord, but then there are times when we cry to Lord. When my kids complain, etc., sometimes I don't pay much attention (actually, probably most of the time) - but when my daughter broke her wrist when we were sled-riding the cry from her mouth wasn't a 'complaint'. It was a cry. The second I heard the tone of her voice in the cry I went running down the hill to her to see what was the matter. That is how it is with God.

Persistence in prayer out of fervency and strong desire for the thing asked for will get results. Vain repetition won't. The main problem with the 'Hail Mary's' and praying the Rosary is not a repetition of cries. It is that you are praying to the wrong god. Mary should never be prayed to, nor any other human being. [:D]

God keep, bless and lead you,
Catherwood



Les -> RE: Repetitive prayer? (4/17/2005 10:03:34 PM)

I grew up in the Anglican church.....[well it was the church I went to when I ever went]...
The order of service there is printed in a book...the prayers are printed there...the confession is printed there..the responses to the Priest are printed there...

The whole service is repetitive, as I grew older I started to think how wrong that was all the repetitive things in the service. Now as I am older still I can see the value in some of those things, I remember so much of the things better and they became a part of me and something that still comes to mind at the right times. Repetive is not bad as long as that is not what our relationship with God is based on.

I walk and talk and fellowship with my God 7/24 and I also have those times of deeper worship and prayer...... its my heart that HE will look at not so much the words I say or repeat.

Interesting thing is I have learned this last couple of days that also the Anglicans have a rosary as well, I didn;t know that before.

In His Love

Les



Lurker -> RE: Repetitive prayer? (4/18/2005 12:57:07 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: catherwood

I love the picture of Gandalf at the Bridge of Khazadun when he is facing the Balrag! Go Gandalf!

Gandalf Rocks. :)


quote:


I think people have brought up good points. True prayer is from the heart with submission and affection. Charles Spurgeon use to say something to the effect that often times we talk to the Lord, but then there are times when we cry to Lord. When my kids complain, etc., sometimes I don't pay much attention (actually, probably most of the time) - but when my daughter broke her wrist when we were sled-riding the cry from her mouth wasn't a 'complaint'. It was a cry. The second I heard the tone of her voice in the cry I went running down the hill to her to see what was the matter. That is how it is with God.


Interesting POV. I like it. :)

quote:


Persistence in prayer out of fervency and strong desire for the thing asked for will get results. Vain repetition won't. The main problem with the 'Hail Mary's' and praying the Rosary is not a repetition of cries. It is that you are praying to the wrong god. Mary should never be prayed to, nor any other human being.


Hrmm, you are quite right in that vain repititious prayers are ineffective before God. (Matthew 6:7-8) But that's not to say that ALL repetitious prayers are vain. There are severeal instances where we see in the scriptures prayers that are to be repeated over and over. The most famous is the one given by Our Blessed Lord Jesus in the verses following his warning against vain prayers. I speak of course of The Lord's Prayer, found in Matthew 6:9-13. And also! The night before His arrest, our Blessed Lord Jesus prayed the same prayer over and over several times. (Matthew 26:33-44) And we see the angels in Heaven repeating “Holy, holy, holy is the Lord God Almighty, who was, and is, and is to come.” in Revelations 4:8.


So then, is the Rosary itself vain and reptitious? Well, it's certainly repetitive. But does that mean it's vain? To decide that I would imagine then that you should need to know how the Rosary is prayed. It's not too hard actually. Especially since 99% of the Rosary is based in Scripture. :)

To start, one makes the sign of the Cross and prays, "In the Name of the Father, The Son, and the Holy Spirit."
Which is followed by the Our Father (Matthew 6:9-13 of course.)

Next is three of the Hail Mary prayer, it's also quite scriptural and goes, "Hail Mary full of grace, the Lord is with you!" (Luke 1:28) it continues, "Blessed art thou amongst women and blessed is the fruit of thy womb Jesus! (Luke 1:42). The rest of it goes... "Holy Mary, mother of God. Pray FOR us sinners, now and in the hour of our death."
First, we know that Mary is Holy, she was made holy by the grace of her Son. She is called the mother of God, because she is indeed Our Blessed Saviour's mother! And the rest is not a prayer TO her, but asking her to pray FOR us. For we know that the prayer of a righteous man is powerful and effective (James 5:16) and Mary, as Our Blessed Saviour's bleoved mother, is righteous indeed. So by asking her to pray for us we are pleasing God who tells us through the apostle Paul, "First of all, then, I urge that supplications, prayers, intercessions, and thanksgivings be made for all men, for kings and all who are in high positions, that we may lead a quiet and peaceable life, godly and respectful in every way. This is good, and pleasing to God our Savior, who desires all men to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth" (1 Tim. 2:1–4)
As we are called to intercede via prayer for one another, so we can ask our fellow Christians to pray for us.

Following the three Hail Marys, one says the Glory Be which goes, "Glory be to the Father, and to the Son, and to the Holy Spirit. As it was in the beginning, is now, and ever shall be, world without end. Amen."

Next is another Our Father while announcing the first Mystery. As one prays the Rosary, we're called to meditate on specific instances from scriptures called "mysteries". The involve the birth and childhood of Our Blessed Lord Jesus, His earthly Ministry, His horrible punishment and crucifixion, and finally, His glorious resurrection! One typically meditates on theses scriptural instances whilst saying ten of the Hail Marys. The Hail Mary helps focus our mind on her Blessed Son and His life and love. After completing the ten Hail Mary prayers, (called a decade iirc) one then announces the next mystery (scriptural passage/lesson), says the Our Father, and meditates on the new mystery. Typically one says 5 mysteries during the course of praying the Rosary.

As one finishes the Rosary it's typically ended with the Salve Regina. It goes, "Hail holy Queen, Mother of mercy, our life, our sweetness, and our hope! To thee do we cry, poor banished children of Eve. To thee do we send up our sighs, mourning and weeping in this vale of tears. Turn, then, most gracious advocate, thine eyes of mercy toward us, and after this our exile show unto us the blessed fruit of thy womb, Jesus. O clement, O loving, O sweet Virgin Mary"

The Salve Regina is a hymn of praise to the blessed mother of Our Lord, and it asks her to remember us to her Blessed Son Jesus. The entirety of the Rosary is centered on Jesus. While we do indeed ask His blessed mother to pray for us and remember us to Him, the focus is on her Son, Jesus. The mysteries we meditate on are of Our Blessed Lord's life.

Hope this explanation makes sense. :)

quote:


God keep, bless and lead you,
Catherwood


May Our most Blessed Lord Jesus bless you as well!
Lurker
[:D]



sdaw -> RE: Repetitive prayer? (10/21/2005 9:08:25 AM)

Dear Christian Boy,

I had prepared this post, but the thread was closed while I was doing so.

There is an Anglican version of the Rosary. Here is a link to it.

http://www.saintgabriels.org/rosary.html

There is a similiar prayer used by the Orthodox. Here is a link to it.
http://www.icbs.com/prayer/orthodox-rosary.htm

Although there is a specific form used by Catholics for public recitation, in private one may adapt the Rosary any number of ways. One can make up one's own set of mysteries. One can find the applicable Scripture passages and read a verse with each Hail Mary or Jesus Prayer.

All that is necessary is that it be from the heart.

On the Feast of St. Hilarion
Blessed be God in His Angels and in His Saints!



unworthyseraphim -> RE: Repetitive prayer? (10/21/2005 10:47:37 AM)

It is interesting. The would be violinest must practice the same tune over and over again to get it right, a phrase here, a phase there, little by little working towards mastery of the whole, and once the whole tune is memorize he must learn to enter the notes, the phrases and pour out his heart through them.

The would be ice skater must practice runs and jumps, and spins, thousands of times then learn to link them together into a choherant routine, then polish that routine until the muscle memory of it all is second nature.

The would be architect must learn hundreds of drawing conventions and hundreds more construction conventions before he can be called an architect at all, and he must design many buildings of increasing complexity that when built prove the worth of his plans before he is entrusted with designing the great buildings and master projects that will define the character of a city.

Yet, the would be master of prayer can learn nothing from the great prayers of those who have gone before, he cannot enter into the prayers of another until they are his own, he cannot be shaped in his inner life by anything any other Christian as done before him in the whole history of the Church, rather he must utter the freeform "spiritual" ramblings of his heart and mind and hope for the best.

fascinating.



sdaw -> RE: Repetitive prayer? (10/21/2005 12:49:14 PM)

quote:

fascinating.


Dear UWS,

Not my first choice of adjectives.

On the Feast of St. Hilarion
Blessed be God in His Angels and in His Saints!



Secure1Forever -> RE: Repetitive prayer? (10/23/2005 7:24:50 AM)

Unorthodox Christian religions of the world, Buddhism, Hinduism, Islamism and all rites of 'xxxx-catholicism' practice and propagate the pagan ritual involving their fondling a string of beads to aid them in keeping count/sequence of the repetitious prayers they chant to their various and sundry man made gods/goddesses.

This teaching is germane to all rites of the 'xxxx-catholic' religious movement. I listed other worldly religions to point out the fact that 'xxxx-catholicism' is numbered among them, via its self-righteous religiosity.

Besides being inane repetitious religious rhetoric, the most heretical part of the 'xxxx-catholic' rosary, is their prayers, idolatry, adoration and worship, to and for a mere little dead woman in the abominable 'ave Maria'.

We Christians do not pray to dead people, beseeching the dead to intercede or mediate between us and God.

Jesus the Christ is our ONLY mediator!

John 14:6
Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, and the truth, and the life: no one cometh unto the Father, but by me.

1 Timothy 2:5
For there is one God, one mediator also between God and men, himself man, Christ Jesus,

Hebrews 9:15
And for this cause he is the mediator of a new covenant, that a death having taken place for the redemption of the transgressions that were under the first covenant, they that have been called may receive the promise of the eternal inheritance.

According to God's Word, it is blasphemous for any religion to teach that any dead person could ever replace God.
This is exactly what all 'xxxx-catholicism' does; via its counterfeit Christianity.



DaveW -> RE: Repetitive prayer? (10/23/2005 7:43:05 AM)

Secure1, we get your opinion of the Catholics and the rosary. What about the wider topic of pre-written prayers such as the Lord's Prayer. the Kaddish or the Amidah? Christ himself prayed the last 2 regularly in the synagogue. In fact if you look at the Lord's Prayer (Our Father...) You find He pulled much from the Kaddish and the Alenu.



sdaw -> RE: Repetitive prayer? (10/23/2005 10:05:16 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Secure1Forever

Unorthodox Christian religions of the world, Buddhism, Hinduism, Islamism and all rites of 'xxxx-catholicism' practice and propagate the pagan ritual involving their fondling a string of beads to aid them in keeping count/sequence of the repetitious prayers they chant to their various and sundry man made gods/goddesses.

This teaching is germane to all rites of the 'xxxx-catholic' religious movement. I listed other worldly religions to point out the fact that 'xxxx-catholicism' is numbered among them, via its self-righteous religiosity.

Besides being inane repetitious religious rhetoric, the most heretical part of the 'xxxx-catholic' rosary, is their prayers, idolatry, adoration and worship, to and for a mere little dead woman in the abominable 'ave Maria'.

We Christians do not pray to dead people, beseeching the dead to intercede or mediate between us and God.

Jesus the Christ is our ONLY mediator!

John 14:6
Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, and the truth, and the life: no one cometh unto the Father, but by me.

1 Timothy 2:5
For there is one God, one mediator also between God and men, himself man, Christ Jesus,

Hebrews 9:15
And for this cause he is the mediator of a new covenant, that a death having taken place for the redemption of the transgressions that were under the first covenant, they that have been called may receive the promise of the eternal inheritance.

According to God's Word, it is blasphemous for any religion to teach that any dead person could ever replace God.
This is exactly what all 'xxxx-catholicism' does; via its counterfeit Christianity.


Dear secure1forever,

Get your facts before you get your dander up. They don't make that much Head and Shoulders.

On the Feast of San Juan Capistrano
Blessed be God in His Angels and in His Saints!



called2valor -> RE: Repetitive prayer? (3/13/2006 10:41:31 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: TheoJunkie

[
However... for some, I think they are guilty of "babbling" in a misguided thought that God likes a constant flow (a.k.a. afraid of silence).




Hehe, that made me laugh!
I have had the honor/dubious distinction/blessing/trouble of having been deeply in both the RCC and in "Protestantism" (that term bothers me for some reason, because I was never protesting anything ;) ) but anyway:
That is one of the things that bothered me about belonging to a rather "vocal" sect at one time - no love of sacred silence.
I think that structured or repetitive prayers are not "vain repetition" - I pray the breviary, Scripture, extemporaneously,etc whatever is in order for the moment. They all have their place IMHO.

Have you ever been in a life and death or dangerous situation before? What's been the gut reaction?
For me it was just to call out the name of JESUS!
I did it a few times and I know I was heard ;) I didn't have time to come up with some wonderful words off the top of my head. Prayer is whatever is needed at the time (within Godly parameters, to be sure), but I have taken great comfort in things such as saying the cycle of night prayers and know exactly how it will end and resting my soul and knowing thatI spoke to God before the end of the day.

Even when I was being told directly by the church that never knew how to remain silent that Catholics prayed "vain repetitions" and they pointed to that verse in triumph, I never bought it for a second. I saw plenty of people doing it there , too.

Sometimes I feel like a heretic to all of Christendom, because there are things I reject doctrinally from all the sects/denominations/what-have-you I have ever encountered, joined or studied, but one thing I do know is that I am saved.
Pitting Catholics versus Protestants against each other like pitbulls isn't exactly Christ-like (hey, I thought we all loved the same God?)
Dialogue, sure I'll go with that.

Great forum, great thread, glad to be here :)

godspeed



unworthyseraphim -> RE: Repetitive prayer? (3/14/2006 2:14:50 AM)

Actually there is a repetivive Protestant prayer I've run into several times in my former life.

It is generally known as the prayer of the just.....It begins "Lord we/I just (divine compliment), and we/I just (prefacing remarks the occasion), and Lord we just ask (central petition), and just (Divine compliment) for your hearing our prayer, and we just (expression of gratitude), and we just (reitteration of expression of gratitude in scripture quip), and Father we just (short sermon of piled up bible verses directed at the hearers/coprayers so they will be suitably spiritually impressed at the pray-ers earnestness and spirituality, so we just (Divine compliment), Amen.

Or some variation thereof.



facedown -> RE: Repetitive prayer? (3/14/2006 8:21:09 AM)

as it is written, the oldest repetitive prayer i am aware of:

quote:

His Mercy Endures Forever



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