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RE: Repetitive prayer? - 5/7/2007 7:55:45 AM
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DaveW
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Covaan_Meshuga
Then the leader began to lead the group of believers in a prayer, repeated several times, a prayer that said "L-rd be merciful unto me a sinner." I was very uncomfortable with the whole atmosphere. I don't think that I never sin, but something inside just said, "This isn't right." Do you have the same problem with the Al Chet prayer on Yom Kippur? That is not just "be merciful unto me a sinner," but goes thu a whole laundry list of every possible sin and asks for mercy and forgiveness.
_____________________________
Avatar is Saphira 5 months and Louvena at 23 months!
We are now grandparents TWICE!!
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RE: Repetitive prayer? - 5/7/2007 8:19:32 AM
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Ezra
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quote:
ORIGINAL: 1lightseeker
quote:
ORIGINAL: Ezra
Saints do sin, as we see in Scripture. And if we say we have no sin, we deceive ourselves. But saints remain saints because of the indwelling Holy Spirit, by whom we have been sanctified.
we sin while we are sanctified? I was never comfortable with the whole invisibility cloak approach to my sin. I wanted help to not sin, not just for God to be blind to it.
Yes. The apostle Peter is a good example of a sinning saint, who repented after he sinned in denying Christ, and was not only forgiven, but commissioned to feed God's flock after that incident.
God does provide more than help in enabling us to resist sin. He provides us with Himself. The indwelling Holy Spirit is God whose power is available to every child of God. And God is not just blind to sin in the believer.
We are told that if we say we have no sin we deceive ourselves. We are told to confess our sins and repent. We are also told that when we do so "[God] is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness" (1 Jn. 1:9,10).
None of this invalidates the fact that a saint is a saint because he or she has received the gift of the Holy Spirit, and that is why we are sanctified (redeemed, regenerated, reconciled, and set apart for God).
A saint is not an unregenerated sinner, and the sinner's prayer is for those who have not experienced God's grace and mercy in salvation.
To deny our salvation through a repititious sinner's prayer is to deny what God has revealed in the Gospel. That in itself is a very serious sin, because it makes God a liar.
_____________________________
And whosoever will, let him take the Water of Life freely. Revelation 22:17
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RE: Repetitive prayer? - 5/7/2007 8:33:01 AM
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Covaan_Meshuga
Posts: 3062
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quote:
ORIGINAL: DaveW
quote:
ORIGINAL: Covaan_Meshuga
Then the leader began to lead the group of believers in a prayer, repeated several times, a prayer that said "L-rd be merciful unto me a sinner." I was very uncomfortable with the whole atmosphere. I don't think that I never sin, but something inside just said, "This isn't right." Do you have the same problem with the Al Chet prayer on Yom Kippur? That is not just "be merciful unto me a sinner," but goes thu a whole laundry list of every possible sin and asks for mercy and forgiveness. No, Dave. That prayer is specific. I know what I am praying about. I know what the words mean and the intention of the words. It takes thought and consideration to say the Al Chet. It was different for me, to just repeat over and over, "L-rd be merciful unto me a sinner"; it meant nothing. I was just repeating what the group had been told to say. It meant nothing. Something within me simply recoiled against it.
_____________________________
Abiyah
Why does He keep quoting Torah? Doesn't He know He's about to abolish it?
A tree's fruit is obvious; you have to look harder for the worm hole.
G-d has only one natural Son; EVERYONE else is adopted.
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RE: Repetitive prayer? - 5/7/2007 8:46:14 AM
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1lightseeker
Posts: 505
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Ezra
Yes. The apostle Peter is a good example of a sinning saint, who repented after he sinned in denying Christ, and was not only forgiven, but commissioned to feed God's flock after that incident.
Yes, he repented from his sin. Confession and repentance are key elements in the process of growing in Christ.
quote:
God does provide more than help in enabling us to resist sin. He provides us with Himself. The indwelling Holy Spirit is God whose power is available to every child of God. And God is not just blind to sin in the believer.
We are told that if we say we have no sin we deceive ourselves. We are told to confess our sins and repent. We are also told that when we do so "[God] is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness" (1 Jn. 1:9,10).
None of this invalidates the fact that a saint is a saint because he or she has received the gift of the Holy Spirit, and that is why we are sanctified (redeemed, regenerated, reconciled, and set apart for God).
A saint is not an unregenerated sinner, and the sinner's prayer is for those who have not experienced God's grace and mercy in salvation.
To deny our salvation through a repititious sinner's prayer is to deny what God has revealed in the Gospel. That in itself is a very serious sin, because it makes God a liar.
If a person sins, he is a sinner. Sin means "miss the mark". The Jesus Prayer is admitting I miss the mark and inviting God's grace and mercy to come in and heal me of my deficiency. Yes Christ is sufficient to cleanse me from all unrighteousness, and I do not tire of saying this prayer because it avails me to His wondrous cleansing and grace.
We agree that we need to confess our sin. I think you are taking it too far to say that the way I do it is denying what God revealed in the Gospel and am making Him a liar.
I do believe in a conversion experience when we stop trusting in our sinful selves and put our trust in Christ by the power of the Holy Spirit and love of God the Father. Thereafter though, I believe we need to keep clean before Him by confession and repentance. The Jesus Prayer is part of that, but it is more. It is a simple way of turning my eyes from the things of the world, and focusing on and inviting His healing presence moment by moment.
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RE: Repetitive prayer? - 5/7/2007 8:47:26 AM
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FoxInSox
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joining the thread without reading all of it...i will try to later...right now i'm meant to be actually working...
anyway, i was born and raised protestant, and i currently work at a school for kids with special needs that was started over 50 years ago by an order of nuns. (in short, it's catholic, but our primary purpose is being for special kids, not being catholic, although christianity permeates).
I LOVE the mass. I LOVE the pattern, the oral responses, the way I know that Christians have been saying the Mass for centuries, even in Latin. If it weren't for my differing beliefs regarding Mary/saints/baptism, I'd convert, but those are biggies!
I LOVE saying to everyone, "peace be with you" and responding to the priest, "And also to you." I LOVE how everyone says the Lord's Prayer together, but we call it the "Our Father." I just really connect deeply with this kind of thing.
Anyway, for years, I've longed for meditative prayer, but I've been clueless on how to do it. After working here for a while, I read up some on the rosary. The rosary has a great deal to do with Mary, but I think the meditative concept and the prayer beads are wonderful, so I read about some other classic/ancient Christian prayers, and subsitited those for the Hail Mary's and Hail Holy Queen. (such a heretic, i know  ). I also say the Nicene rather than the Apostle's Creed because that's what we say at my church.
I don't have it memorized yet, but I'm close. It's something very treasured in my faith.
If anyone is interested in more detail, I'd love to talk some more, but I don't want to bore everyone. Also, another guy did sopmething similar and posted it online. He calls it the Ecumenical Rosary. Run a google search, and it pops up first.
Also, and this may have been mentioned, but the Rosary began because the lay people wanted to pray at regular intervals as the monks, nuns, and preists did. Bell towers would ring certain bells to signal to the town that it was time to pray. I think that's a neat heritage.
michelle
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~ formerly infinitepiphany ~
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RE: Repetitive prayer? - 5/7/2007 10:03:58 AM
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unworthyseraphim
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Dear Instantepiphany,
If you are uncomfortable with the rosary there are other prayer cycles that uses beads/knots as counters.
The precursor to the present meditation of the rosary was the recitation of the psalms, one for each bead...of course this was at a time when the memorization of the psalter was pretty common.
The Orthodox use bead or a Komboschini (rope of knots) to pray the Jesus prayer: Lord Jesus Christ Son of God be merciful to me a sinner. Prayer ropes come in lengths of 33, 50, and 100 knots. The prayer is recited on each knot. There is generally a bead or sometimes a cross shaped tassel that marks the end of one cycle and starts another. The bead reminds us of our times of prayerlessness and the injuction to pray without ceasing. The cross can remind us that we have not yet striven to blood against sin and that in prayer we make a living offering of our life for Christ's sake.
The purpose of the knots is to keep track of a certain number of prayers said at a time. This is generally done under the direction of a spiritual father or mother as part of one's daily discipline of prayer. It is hard enough to pray it mindfully each time without distracting the mind and heart by counting.
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RE: Repetitive prayer? - 5/7/2007 12:09:20 PM
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DaveW
Posts: 3833
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From: MD suburbs of Washington DC
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Covaan_Meshuga
No, Dave. That prayer is specific. I know what I am praying about. I know what the words mean and the intention of the words. It takes thought and consideration to say the Al Chet. It was different for me, to just repeat over and over, "L-rd be merciful unto me a sinner"; it meant nothing. I was just repeating what the group had been told to say. It meant nothing. Something within me simply recoiled against it. AH! I see! I understand now.
BTW, I found an amusing addendum to the Al CHet for us posters:
For the sin which we have committed by responding too often,
And for the sin which we have committed by not posting at all when we have something valuable to say;
For the sin which we have committed by responding angrily in haste,
And for the sin which we have committed by posting private email in a public forum;
For the sin which we have committed by misinterpreting others' words,
And for the sin which we have committed by not expressing ourselves clearly;
For the sin which we have committed by being sarcastic to other list members,
And for the sin which we have committed by not being tolerant of their positions;
For the sin which we have committed by not explaining technical terms,
And for the sin which we have committed by assuming others know as much as we do;
For the sin which we have committed by posting announcements directly,
And for the sin which we have committed by posting subscription commands to the list;
For the sin which we have committed by forwarding messages without introduction
And for the sin which we have committed by cross-posting our own messages to many other lists;
For the sin which we have committed by not using an appropriate subject line,
And for the sin which we have committed by having a long .signature file;
For the sin which we have committed by quoting others' posts in their entirety,
And for the sin which we have committed by not providing context to our replies;
For all of these, Forgiving One, Forgive Us, Pardon Us, and Grant Us Atonement.
© Mark Frydenberg, 1995-1999
http://www.osmond-riba.org/lis/AlChet.htm
_____________________________
Avatar is Saphira 5 months and Louvena at 23 months!
We are now grandparents TWICE!!
====================================
Our CD is now available here:
http://cdbaby.com/cd/dswaggoner
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RE: Repetitive prayer? - 5/7/2007 8:33:27 PM
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Lurker
Posts: 754
Joined: 4/11/2005
From: Silver Spring, MD
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quote:
ORIGINAL: DaveW
quote:
ORIGINAL: Lurker
Who says that the Theotokos is dead though? She is mentioned in the scriptures as being alive in Heaven. And we have the testimony of the early Church that tells of her being raised up by her Son and glorified. So, the prohibition against talking to the dead does not apply at all to her. ???
I assume you mean Mary = Theotokos, not a term or name I have heard before. At any rate, she is no longer alive here on earth. Therefore she is dead. Even though all believers are alive in HIM, whether here or in paradise, attempting communication is strictly forbidden with those who are not living here (on earth) with us.
quote:
It is the Theotokos who is the woman in Revelation 12. She has been taken up to Heaven by her Son and given a place of honour befitting her. That is one intrepretation. We see the woman in Rev 12 as Israel, who gives birth to the Savior. The ongoing (for 2000 years) warfare to eliminate the Jewish people corresponds well with the dragon continuing to wage war against her.
Sorry, yes. Mary is the Theotokos. It's a Greek term meaning "Mother of God"
Basically it is an answer to one of the early heretical groups that denied that Jesus is God. They said that Mary was merely the mother of the human side of Jesus. But one can't be a parent of just a human side. Anymore than I can say my mother only gave birth to my human flesh. She gave birth to me, a person. By calling Mary "Theotokos" we affirm the essential truth of her Son. That He is both God AND man.
As to her being dead or not. I respectfully disagree. We can see in the scriptures examples of Our Lord talking to Moses while still here on Earth, and we know of at least two instances where a prophet was taken up directly to heaven while still alive. Enoch and Elijah to be specific. If Our Lord can deign to grant these two holy men to Heaven while still alive, how can we doubt He would be willing to do the same for His own mother. And indeed, we have the testimony of the early Church that says that Mary was taken up by Jesus into heaven.
Now, one of the most wonderful things about the scriptures is how the various prophecies are many layered. I won't deny the interpretation that the woman in Revelation 12 can be seen as Israel, but it can also be seen as Mary as well. :)
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Do not be afraid of Christ! He takes nothing away, and he gives you everything. When we give ourselves to him, we receive a hundredfold in return. Yes, open, open wide the doors to Christ—and you will find true life.
-Pope Benedict XVI
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RE: Repetitive prayer? - 5/7/2007 9:20:22 PM
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JesKlu
Posts: 554
Joined: 4/16/2007
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Lurker
quote:
ORIGINAL: DaveW
quote:
ORIGINAL: Lurker
Who says that the Theotokos is dead though? She is mentioned in the scriptures as being alive in Heaven. And we have the testimony of the early Church that tells of her being raised up by her Son and glorified. So, the prohibition against talking to the dead does not apply at all to her. ???
I assume you mean Mary = Theotokos, not a term or name I have heard before. At any rate, she is no longer alive here on earth. Therefore she is dead. Even though all believers are alive in HIM, whether here or in paradise, attempting communication is strictly forbidden with those who are not living here (on earth) with us.
quote:
It is the Theotokos who is the woman in Revelation 12. She has been taken up to Heaven by her Son and given a place of honour befitting her. That is one intrepretation. We see the woman in Rev 12 as Israel, who gives birth to the Savior. The ongoing (for 2000 years) warfare to eliminate the Jewish people corresponds well with the dragon continuing to wage war against her.
Sorry, yes. Mary is the Theotokos. It's a Greek term meaning "Mother of God"
Basically it is an answer to one of the early heretical groups that denied that Jesus is God. They said that Mary was merely the mother of the human side of Jesus. But one can't be a parent of just a human side. Anymore than I can say my mother only gave birth to my human flesh. She gave birth to me, a person. By calling Mary "Theotokos" we affirm the essential truth of her Son. That He is both God AND man.
As to her being dead or not. I respectfully disagree. We can see in the scriptures examples of Our Lord talking to Moses while still here on Earth, and we know of at least two instances where a prophet was taken up directly to heaven while still alive. Enoch and Elijah to be specific. If Our Lord can deign to grant these two holy men to Heaven while still alive, how can we doubt He would be willing to do the same for His own mother. And indeed, we have the testimony of the early Church that says that Mary was taken up by Jesus into heaven.
Now, one of the most wonderful things about the scriptures is how the various prophecies are many layered. I won't deny the interpretation that the woman in Revelation 12 can be seen as Israel, but it can also be seen as Mary as well. :)
I am going to tell you where you got the notion that the Early Church said Mary was taken up.
http://www.uoregon.edu/~sshoemak/texts/dormitionG2/dormitionG2.htm
As the all-holy glorious mother of God and ever-virgin Mary, as was her wont, was going to the holy tomb of our Lord to burn incense, and bending her holy knees, she was importunate that Christ our God who had been born of her should return to her. And the Jews, seeing her lingering by the divine sepulchre, came to the chief priests, saying: Mary goes every day to the tomb. And the chief priests, having summoned the guards set by them not to allow any one to pray at the holy sepulchre, inquired about her, whether in truth it were so. And the guards answered and said that they had seen no such thing, God having not allowed them to see her when there. And on one of the days, it being the preparation, the holy Mary, as was her wont, came to the sepulchre; and while she was praying, it came to pass that the heavens were opened, and the archangel Gabriel came down to her and said: Hail, thou that didst bring forth Christ our God! Thy prayer having come through to the heavens to Him who was born of thee, has been accepted; and from this time, according to thy request, thou having left the world, shall go to the heavenly places to thy Son, into the true and everlasting life.
And having heard this from the holy archangel, she returned to holy Bethlehem, having along with her three virgins who ministered unto her. And after having rested a short time, she sat up and said to the virgins: Bring me a censer, that I may pray. And they brought it, as they had been commanded. And she prayed, saying: My Lord Jesus Christ, who didst deign through Thy supreme goodness to be born of me, hear my voice, and send me Thy apostle John, in order that, seeing him, I may partake of joy; and send me also the rest of Thy apostles, both those who have already gone to Thee, and those in the world that now is, in whatever country they may be, through Thy holy commandment, in order that, having beheld them, I may bless Thy name much to be praised; for I am confident that Thou hearest Thy servant in everything.
And while she was praying, I John came, the Holy Spirit having snatched me up by a cloud from Ephesus, and set me in the place where the mother of my Lord was lying. And having gone in beside her, and glorified Him who had been born of her, I said: Hail, mother of my Lord, who didst bring forth Christ our God, rejoice that in great glory thou art going out of this life. And the holy mother of God glorified God, because I John had come to her, remembering the voice of the Lord, saying: Behold thy mother, and, Behold thy son. And the three virgins came and worshipped. And the holy mother of God says to me: Pray, and cast incense. And I prayed thus: Lord Jesus Christ, who hast done wonderful things, now also do wonderful things before her who brought Thee forth; and let Thy mother depart from this life; and let those who crucified Thee, and who have not believed in Thee, be confounded. And after I had ended the prayer, holy Mary said to me: Bring me the censer. And having cast incense, she said, Glory to Thee, my God and my Lord, because there has been fulfilled in me whatsoever Thou didst promise to me before thou didst ascend into the heavens, that when I should depart from this world Thou wouldst come to me, and the multitude of Thine angels, with glory. And I John say to her: Jesus Christ our Lord and our God is coming, and thou seest Him, as He promised to thee. And the holy mother of God answered and said to me: The Jews have sworn that after I have died they will burn my body. And I answered and said to her: Thy holy and precious body will by no means see corruption. And she answered and said to me: Bring a censer, and cast incense, and pray. And there came a voice out of the heavens saying the Amen. And I John heard this voice; and the Holy Spirit said to me: John, hast thou heard this voice that spoke in the heaven after the prayer was ended? And I answered and said: Yes, I heard. And the Holy Spirit said to me: This voice which thou didst hear denotes that the appearance of thy brethren the apostles is at hand, and of the holy powers that they are coming hither to-day.
And at this I John prayed.
And the Holy Spirit said to the apostles: Let all of you together, having come by the clouds from the ends of the world, be assembled to holy Bethlehem by a whirlwind, on account of the mother of our Lord Jesus Christ; Peter from Rome, Paul from Tiberia, Thomas from Hither India, James from Jerusalem. Andrew, Peter's brother, and Philip, Luke, and Simon the Cananaean, and Thaddaeus who had fallen asleep, were raised by the Holy Spirit out of their tombs; to whom the Holy Spirit said: Do not think that it is now the resurrection; but on this account you have risen out of your tombs, that you may go to give greeting to the honour and wonder-working of the mother of our Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ, because the day of her departure is at hand, of her going up into the heavens. And Mark likewise coming round, was present from Alexandria; he also with the rest, as has been said before, from each country. And Peter being lifted up by a cloud, stood between heaven and earth, the Holy Spirit keeping him steady. And at the same time, the rest of the apostles also, having been snatched up in clouds, were found along with Peter. And thus by the Holy Spirit, as has been said, they all came together.
I am not going to post the whole thing but you have to read the rest. This is a 5th to 6th century writing. And since it was written in the 5th and 6th centuries, not in the first century when the Apostle John lived, the is an apocryphal legend.
Yours in Jesus Christ,
Jessica
_____________________________
And calling to him a child, he put him in the midst of them and said, "Truly, I say to you, unless you turn and become like children, you will never enter the kingdom of heaven.
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RE: Repetitive prayer? - 5/7/2007 11:37:31 PM
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unworthyseraphim
Posts: 1092
Joined: 4/12/2005
From: Mississippi
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Who says it is a 5th or 6th century legend? What keeps it from being a 5th or 6th century record of part of the Tradition that had been passed down orally in the Church until then? How do you know this dating is correct. Origin mentioned this writing and he died two to three centuries earlier...talk about your miracles. Oh...and also if I'm not mistaken the earliest known manuscripts date to around the same time.
Also is it reasonable to conclude that since in our late time we only have 3rd or 4th century documents about something it must have only come into being with those documents. Sorry...the Tradition, the oral transmission of these things would have long predated any writing of them....assuming there were no earlier documents that we no longer have.
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RE: Repetitive prayer? - 5/8/2007 1:16:30 PM
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DaveW
Posts: 3833
Joined: 4/12/2005
From: MD suburbs of Washington DC
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Whether Mary experienced a physical death or was whisked away is not the topic here. It is on the validity (or invalidity) of repetitive prayer. If we do not keep on topic the mods will close the thread.
I see no problem with it because the gospels tell us that Jesus was in the habit of being in the synagogue on Shabbat. The Shabbat prayers are lengthy and the same every week with minor variations for the season of the year. Whether they had the same variations then we do not know, but we do know that the prayers in use now were for the most part also used then but not as lengthy.
The Amidah (shimona esray) the Kaddish and the Alenu all date back to the first century bc. In fact the Avinu (Our Father or Lord's Prayer) is striking in similarity to the structure of the Alenu and Kaddish.
If I am going to pray a repetitive prayer, I will use the same ones Jesus used.
_____________________________
Avatar is Saphira 5 months and Louvena at 23 months!
We are now grandparents TWICE!!
====================================
Our CD is now available here:
http://cdbaby.com/cd/dswaggoner
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RE: Repetitive prayer? - 5/8/2007 4:16:08 PM
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unworthyseraphim
Posts: 1092
Joined: 4/12/2005
From: Mississippi
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We have no problem singing our favorite hymns to the Lord again and again...why should it be a problem with our prayers. But if it is you can just do what the Orthodox do...sing your prayers and pray your hymns....and as many times as you like.
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RE: Repetitive prayer? - 7/24/2008 9:12:58 AM
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TheCatholicCrusader
Posts: 203
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quote:
ORIGINAL: SaintJVMan
When your child says I love you, I love you, I love you! Do you rebuke him and tell him that that’s only vain repetition?
Good point. And I suppose if I say the Lord's Prayer once I'm a Christian, but if I say it three times I'm a Pagan. LOL.
Paul says we are to "pray without ceasing" (1 Thess. 5:17), not "pray reservedly lest we repeat ourselves" (as is inevitable in ceaseless prayer). One of the benefits of the rosary is that it leads naturally to the ceaseless prayer and meditation which Scripture enjoins upon us.
And note that in Revelation 4:8-11 we find the heavenly host engaging in repetitive prayer ("Holy, holy, holy Lord God Almighty"), said "day and night" before the throne of the Almighty, followed by repetitious antiphons from the elders.
Look at the context of the "vain repetitions" verse. Matthew 6:5-6 deal with the prayer practices of the Jews themselves; Jesus derides these as hypocritical. He doesn't condemn repetitive Jewish prayers, of which there were a countless number. For example, the book of Psalms is a collection of hymns and prayers repeatedly used in Jewish celebrations in which Jesus himself participated. The Passover, celebrated by Jesus before his Crucifixion, had fixed prayers that were repeated annually. Following the Last Supper, Jesus went to the Garden of Gethsemane and prayed the same prayer three times in a row (Matt. 26:39-44)--he engaged in repetitive prayer.
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RE: Repetitive prayer? - 7/24/2008 12:16:28 PM
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Covaan_Meshuga
Posts: 3062
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quote:
ORIGINAL: TheCatholicCrusader
Look at the context of the "vain repetitions" verse. Matthew 6:5-6 deal with the prayer practices of the Jews themselves; Jesus derides these as hypocritical. He doesn't condemn repetitive Jewish prayers, of which there were a countless number. For example, the book of Psalms is a collection of hymns and prayers repeatedly used in Jewish celebrations in which Jesus himself participated. The Passover, celebrated by Jesus before his Crucifixion, had fixed prayers that were repeated annually. Following the Last Supper, Jesus went to the Garden of Gethsemane and prayed the same prayer three times in a row (Matt. 26:39-44)--he engaged in repetitive prayer.
I beg to differ with you. Messiah was NOT criticizing the prayer of Jews but of hypocrites, as plainly stated in the Scriptures. Messiah, a Jew, who practiced a Judaism, had no problem with the prayers of Jews but of hypocrites, just as He has to this day.
_____________________________
Abiyah
Why does He keep quoting Torah? Doesn't He know He's about to abolish it?
A tree's fruit is obvious; you have to look harder for the worm hole.
G-d has only one natural Son; EVERYONE else is adopted.
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RE: Repetitive prayer? - 7/24/2008 6:26:11 PM
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TheCatholicCrusader
Posts: 203
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Covaan_Meshuga
quote:
ORIGINAL: TheCatholicCrusader
Look at the context of the "vain repetitions" verse. Matthew 6:5-6 deal with the prayer practices of the Jews themselves; Jesus derides these as hypocritical. He doesn't condemn repetitive Jewish prayers, of which there were a countless number. For example, the book of Psalms is a collection of hymns and prayers repeatedly used in Jewish celebrations in which Jesus himself participated. The Passover, celebrated by Jesus before his Crucifixion, had fixed prayers that were repeated annually. Following the Last Supper, Jesus went to the Garden of Gethsemane and prayed the same prayer three times in a row (Matt. 26:39-44)--he engaged in repetitive prayer.
I beg to differ with you. Messiah was NOT criticizing the prayer of Jews but of hypocrites, as plainly stated in the Scriptures. Messiah, a Jew, who practiced a Judaism, had no problem with the prayers of Jews but of hypocrites, just as He has to this day.
Still, He doesn't condemn repetitive Jewish prayers, of which there were a countless number.
By the way: Love your avatar. :)
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RE: Repetitive prayer? - 7/24/2008 8:00:56 PM
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Covaan_Meshuga
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Right. It is not repetitive prayer, which, of course, simply means prayers repeated. However, to repeat prayer mindlessly isn't what He wants either, obviously. Prayer must be meaningful, from the heart, with faith in the Hearer, and with the brain in gear.
Thank you very much, re my Avatar. It's some crazy woman . . . .
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Abiyah
Why does He keep quoting Torah? Doesn't He know He's about to abolish it?
A tree's fruit is obvious; you have to look harder for the worm hole.
G-d has only one natural Son; EVERYONE else is adopted.
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RE: Repetitive prayer? - 7/24/2008 8:13:44 PM
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TheCatholicCrusader
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Covaan_Meshuga
Right. It is not repetitive prayer, which, of course, simply means prayers repeated. However, to repeat prayer mindlessly isn't what He wants either, obviously. Prayer must be meaningful, from the heart, with faith in the Hearer, and with the brain in gear.
I am in total agreement. If anyone is praying the Rosary "mindlessly" without attention to the meditation that is supposed to accompany the vocal prayers, or without any thought to what they are saying, then that would not be very productive. Of course, you could apply that to ANY Christian praying ANY kind of prayer, true?
See what you think of this:
http://www.catholic.com/library/rosary.asp
quote:
ORIGINAL: Covaan_Meshuga
Thank you very much, re my Avatar. It's some crazy woman . . . .
LOL
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RE: Repetitive prayer? - 7/24/2008 10:50:25 PM
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Covaan_Meshuga
Posts: 3062
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I'm sorry: I tried to open your recommended site three times, but my computer just gives me a blank page. Sorry!
_____________________________
Abiyah
Why does He keep quoting Torah? Doesn't He know He's about to abolish it?
A tree's fruit is obvious; you have to look harder for the worm hole.
G-d has only one natural Son; EVERYONE else is adopted.
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RE: Repetitive prayer? - 7/25/2008 12:11:49 AM
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Ps103
Posts: 11599
Joined: 4/16/2005
From: Here, now
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The link worked for me, Abi. Try again after you reboot your computer if you want to read it.
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Fasten your seatbelts...it's going to be a bumpy night.
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RE: Repetitive prayer? - 7/25/2008 1:39:40 AM
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Covaan_Meshuga
Posts: 3062
Joined: 6/8/2005
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Well, I think it's my computer. I tried to open a music page someone else gave me a couple weeks ago, and it froze my computer, causing me to have to reboot. He felt bad about that happening, after it happened a few times, so I left that information out of my post here. It froze my computer, and I had to reboot three times tonight. I just gave up.
I just got a new system put in by my server, and some things haven't been right ever since
_____________________________
Abiyah
Why does He keep quoting Torah? Doesn't He know He's about to abolish it?
A tree's fruit is obvious; you have to look harder for the worm hole.
G-d has only one natural Son; EVERYONE else is adopted.
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RE: Repetitive prayer? - 7/29/2008 2:42:31 AM
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matt52490
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Joined: 7/29/2008
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Well in my opinion, the issue with Catholicism is far beyond repetitive prayers. I cannot say for myself if repetitive prayers are wrong all though I do not do any repetitive prayers myself. As for the "our Father" prayer, Jesus did say "pray like this" the word like always implies the word similar, so Jesus was not saying to pray what he had said, but to pray similar to that prayer, so that what Jesus gave us was a model. Also, to think that the Almighty God, creator of the heavens and earth needs to hear a prayer more than once in order to grant it or be satisfied with it, to me seems disrespectful. The same way that a parent has a will for their child and will not grant them anything just because they repeatedly ask for it, God also has a plan for each of us and will not grant your prayer just because you repeatedly pray it.
Aside from prayer, it is beyond me where Catholics have obtained the idea of praying to saints. The idea of praying to Marry or any other saint is simply against the 10 commandments. What do you think is meant by having no other God's before Him, and having no idols? To say that anyone but God deserves your worship or prayer is idolatry no matter what they have done or who you think they are. Also the idea of the Immaculate Conception is not biblical. Mary was not without sin for her whole life. If that was so, then she would have been righteous, and then for what purpose would God have to send his Son. If a woman had the ability to be without sin for her whole life, then that would mean that all people could be righteous without salvation, but Paul makes it very clear in Romans that without salvation we cannot be righteous, and since the law is righteous we cannot follow it. But after salvation we are granted righteousness through Jesus Christ and are now capable of following the righteous law. If you disagree with that, well then if Marry was righteous, meaning that she was without sin, then why not her make the sacrifice. After all, God needed a righteous person to make the sacrifice, the same way that the Old Testament sacrifices were made with innocent animals. So if it were true that Marry had not sinned her whole life, then she would have been capable to die for our sins. But Jesus even makes it clear that there has been no person ever righteous, when he said " I did not come to do away with the law but I came to fulfill it". Jesus was the only one to ever fulfill the law, meaning to never break the law, meaning that he was and is the only one to be righteous. Also Paul confirms this when he says "there is none righteous, no not one". To show that he was not only talking about the people of that day, all of that scripture Romans 3: 9-18 are quotes from the Old Testament. As David said in Psalm 53 "there is no one who does good." So from the Old Testament days to the New Testament days there was no one to live without sin aside from Jesus Christ. As for the idea that Marry was taken into heaven without ever dying, in my opinion there is no place for philosophy in faith. The Bible tells us all that we need to know and is clear on its meaning, and there is no purpose in discussing things that God did not find important enough to include in his word, and especially to back up or base a belief that God did not include in his word.
I truly hope that the Catholic Church will someday see these contradictions and change them to match the word of God because God never contradicts Himself. A worldly interpretation of God's word is very much different from God's interpretation of His word, and only the Holy Spirit can give us that. I hope that everyone will someday realize that they must ask Jesus to come into their lives, and that not by baptism or any ceremonial events can a person be saved, because we are saved by faith not by works. What God has asked us to do to obtain salvation is very simple. Just to say one prayer confessing your sins to God, because in no way can a priest or any person forgive sins, for only the Son of Man has power on earth to forgive sins, therefore we shall ask him and only him for forgiveness. To obtain salvation through any ceremony would be to obtain salvation by a work, and Paul makes it very clear that we are saved by faith not by works. So all we must do is confess our sins to God, and God alone, believe in our hearts that Christ was and is the Messiah to come, and then ask Jesus to come into our lives. But we must ask him to come in; our parents cannot decide our salvation when we are children by having us baptized. Jesus said in Revelation 3: 20 "Here I am! I stand at the door and knock. If anyone hears my voice and opens the door, I will come in and eat with him, and he with me." He is knocking at the door of our hearts, but we must let him in, and if we do so, he will come in and eat with you, he will counsel you for all the days of your life.
"He who has an ear, let him hear what the Spirit says to the churches." Revelation 3: 22
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RE: Repetitive prayer? - 7/29/2008 1:26:01 PM
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