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RE: Repetitive prayer? - 1/23/2007 10:11:17 AM
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GracieRuth
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soxfan, I notice you didn't answer my question.
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In things essential, unity. In things not essential, diversity. And in all things, charity.
St. Augustine
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RE: Repetitive prayer? - 1/25/2007 12:13:23 PM
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Caneman
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Repetetive prayers do have a place in your relationship with Jesus... it can be used to keep the mind from being distracted during prayer so that it can be focused on the indwelling presence... repetive prayer used in this way is not bad at all, in fact, it is a wonderful way to "set your mind on the spirit" Romans 8:6 so that you can be in a position to receive grace from Jesus to expereince life and peace. Repetetive prayer becomes harmful, or at best useless, if your faith is in the repetition and prayer, instead of having faith in Jesus, that He is real, that He lives in your spirit, and that when you pray He is there listening and nearer to you than you are to yourself.
Blessings,
Caneman
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RE: Repetitive prayer? - 1/28/2007 3:55:49 AM
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Covaan_Meshuga
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quote:
ORIGINAL: facedown
as it is written, the oldest repetitive prayer i am aware of:
quote:
His Mercy Endures Forever
I love it, once a year, when my congregation comes to this! It makes us all smile in the joy of it.
A sobering one is in Deuteronomy 27. When we come to it, while some people may not see it as prayer, I do, because it is the whole congregation speaking out, in agreement with our G-d. It is very sobering and heart-searching.
_____________________________
Oops! That should be once every three years!
< Message edited by Covaan_Meshuga -- 1/29/2007 1:15:51 AM >
_____________________________
Abiyah
Why does He keep quoting Torah? Doesn't He know He's about to abolish it?
A tree's fruit is obvious; you have to look harder for the worm hole.
G-d has only one natural Son; EVERYONE else is adopted.
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RE: Repetitive prayer? - 1/28/2007 10:59:26 PM
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Acts29
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Regarding Jesus' prayer in the Garden I believe the focus of His prayer was the will of God more so than the repetition of the prayer. Maybe we should ask ourselves what is the focus or purpose of our prayer rather than the "how to's".
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RE: Repetitive prayer? - 1/29/2007 1:24:37 PM
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GracieRuth
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Acts29
Regarding Jesus' prayer in the Garden I believe the focus of His prayer was the will of God more so than the repetition of the prayer. Maybe we should ask ourselves what is the focus or purpose of our prayer rather than the "how to's".
Or perhaps we should simply realize that the prohibition is against vain repetitions, an not against repetitions that are not vain.
_____________________________
Grace
In things essential, unity. In things not essential, diversity. And in all things, charity.
St. Augustine
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RE: Repetitive prayer? - 1/30/2007 10:29:19 PM
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Ezra
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quote:
Or perhaps we should simply realize that the prohibition is against vain repetitions, an not against repetitions that are not vain.
A repitition that is claimed to be beneficial but is indeed a vain repetition is the so-called "Jesus Prayer". This is the prayer of an unregenerate sinner being repeated over and over again by one who is ostensibly saved, and has already experienced the mercy and grace of God.
Not only is this a vain repetition, but it makes a mockery of God's promises within the Gospel. How can a saint continue to say to God that he is a sinner, when God declares all sinners who believe as having become righteous?
_____________________________
And whosoever will, let him take the Water of Life freely. Revelation 22:17
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RE: Repetitive prayer? - 3/3/2007 6:55:56 AM
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amyk
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I do have a sincere question. Someone on this forum mentioned that Christ is at the center of the rosary (I hope I'm not misstating what was said about that), but on the Catholic Answers website about the rosary (which someone else provided a link to), this is what is said about the rosary: "The rosary is a devotion in honor of the Virgin Mary." So, would Catholics consider it primarily a devotion in honor of the Virgin Mary or something else?
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RE: Repetitive prayer? - 3/6/2007 1:18:24 PM
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Angelus00
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Personally, I'd say both.  Any devotion to Mary is Christ-centered, since in every Marian devotion is the finger pointing to Christ.
In the Rosary, the prayers recited are Marian (with notable exceptions) but the mind is contemplating the life of Jesus. IMO, the Rosary is a two-fold practice.  I know, I know. I'm probably making little or no sense, but, it's PERFECTLY clear to me. LOL
Thanks
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Pour forth, we beseech Thee, O Lord, Thy grace into our hearts, that we to whom the Incarnation of Christ Thy Son was made known by the message of an angel, may by His Passion and Cross be brought to the glory of His Resurrection. Amen
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RE: Repetitive prayer? - 3/6/2007 11:43:13 PM
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Covaan_Meshuga
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Ezra
A repitition that is claimed to be beneficial but is indeed a vain repetition is the so-called "Jesus Prayer". This is the prayer of an unregenerate sinner being repeated over and over again by one who is ostensibly saved, and has already experienced the mercy and grace of God.
Not only is this a vain repetition, but it makes a mockery of God's promises within the Gospel. How can a saint continue to say to God that he is a sinner, when God declares all sinners who believe as having become righteous?
Sorry -- I am pretty ignorant to a lot of religious tradition. Is the "Jesus Prayer" a creed? Is it the same thing as what I have heard called the "Sinner's Prayer," the words of which I don't know either? Do these prayers change from church organization to church organization?
I don't believe I am free of sin, because over the last few weeks, i have had a major attitude problem. I have had to ask G-d to forgive me several times.
_____________________________
Abiyah
Why does He keep quoting Torah? Doesn't He know He's about to abolish it?
A tree's fruit is obvious; you have to look harder for the worm hole.
G-d has only one natural Son; EVERYONE else is adopted.
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RE: Repetitive prayer? - 5/3/2007 9:22:20 PM
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Eph4ch5
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I was told by the moderator that I had to move my response from the Baptism thread to this one.
cmhopes06,
I never said that the Church is just a building. I said that the Catholic Church is the body of Christ, the same Church that is also described as the bride of Christ. In Acts 9:4, before Saul's conversion he had been persecuting the Church, but Jesus asked him, "why do you persecute ME?". Jesus made the Church equal to Himself, and that's because in a mystical way that only God knows, Jesus made the Church His body in a very real and inseparable way. Jesus is the head, and we the Church are His body. He is connected to His body just as much as your head is one with your body. And the Catholic Church is the same Church that was founded by Jesus in 33 AD.
You said:
"the bible doesnt teach us to pray with the rosary"
I say:
The rosary is a meditation on the gospels.
"The prayer begins, 'Hail Mary, full of grace, the Lord is with thee.' This is nothing other than the greeting the angel Gabriel gave Mary in Luke 1:28 (Confraternity Version). The next part reads this way:
'Blessed art thou among women, and blessed is the fruit of thy womb, Jesus.' This was exactly what Mary’s cousin Elizabeth said to her in Luke 1:42. The only thing that has been added to these two verses are the names 'Jesus' and 'Mary,' to make clear who is being referred to. So the first part of the Hail Mary is entirely biblical.
The second part of the Hail Mary is not taken straight from Scripture, but it is entirely biblical in the thoughts it expresses. It reads:
'Holy Mary, Mother of God, pray for us sinners, now and at the hour of our death. Amen.'
Let’s look at the first words. Some Protestants do object to saying 'Holy Mary' because they claim Mary was a sinner like the rest of us. But Mary was a Christian (the first Christian, actually, the first to accept Jesus; cf. Luke 1:45), and the Bible describes Christians in general as holy. In fact, they are called saints, which means 'holy ones' (Eph. 1:1, Phil. 1:1, Col. 1:2). Furthermore, as the mother of Jesus Christ, the Incarnate Second Person of the Blessed Trinity, Mary was certainly a very holy woman.
Some Protestants object to the title 'Mother of God,' but suffice it to say that the title doesn’t mean Mary is older than God; it means the person who was born of her was a divine person, not a human person. (Jesus is one person, the divine, but has two natures, the divine and the human; it is incorrect to say he is a human person.) The denial that Mary had God in her womb is a heresy known as Nestorianism (which claims that Jesus was two persons, one divine and one human), which has been condemned since the early 400s and which the Reformers and Protestant Bible scholars have always rejected." -Catholic.Com
http://www.catholic.com/library/rosary.asp
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RE: Repetitive prayer? - 5/4/2007 1:10:28 PM
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DaveW
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I take issue with the part that prays to those who are dead:
'Holy Mary, Mother of God, pray for us sinners, now and at the hour of our death. Amen.'
We are biblicly commanded NOT to attempt to communicate with the dead in any way shape or form.
To keep this from turning into another catholic debate; What do you think, EvangelicalCatholic, about the ancient prayers the Alenu and Kaddish, which probably were the structure for the Avinu (Our Father)? They were used regularly by the early Jewish Believers in Messiah.
The Alenu in English: From http://www.jewishencyclopedia.com/view.jsp?artid=1112&letter=A
"It is incumbent upon us to give praise to the Lord of the Universe, to glorify Him who formed creation, for He hath not made us to be like the nations of the lands, nor hath He made us like the families of the earth; He hath not set our portion with theirs, nor our lot with their multitude; . . . for they prostrate themselves before vanity and folly, and pray to a god who can not help. . . . But we bend the knee and prostrate ourselves and bow down before the King of the Kings of Kings, the Holy One, blessed be He! For it is He who stretched forth the heavens and laid the foundations of the earth, and the seat of His glory is in the heavens above, and His mighty dwelling-place (Shekinah) is in the loftiest heights. 'He is our God, and there is none other.' In truth, He is our King, there is none besides Him, as it is written in His Torah: 'And thou shalt know this day and lay it to thine heart that the Lord is God in heaven above and upon the earth beneath: and there is none other.'
"Therefore do we wait for Thee, O Lord our God, soon to behold Thy mighty glory, when Thou wilt remove the abominations from the earth, and idols shalt be exterminated; when the world shall be regenerated by the kingdom of the Almighty, and all the children of flesh invoke Thy name; when all the wicked of the earth shall be turned unto Thee. Then shall all the inhabitants of the world perceive and confess that unto Thee every knee must bend, and every tongue be sworn. Before Thee, O Lord our God, shall they kneel and fall down, and unto Thy glorious name give honor. So will they accept the yoke of Thy kingdom, and Thou shall be King over them speedily forever and aye. For Thine is the kingdom, and to all eternity Thou wilt reign in glory, as it is written in Thy Torah: 'The Lord shall reign forever and aye.' And it is also said: 'And the Lord shall be King over all the earth; on that day the Lord shall be One and His name be One.'"
The full Kaddish in English: From http://www.yahrzeit.org/kaddish_eng.html
May the great Name of God be exalted and sanctified, throughout the world, which he has created according to his will. May his Kingship be established in your lifetime and in your days, and in the lifetime of the entire household of Israel, swiftly and in the near future; and say, Amen.
May his great name be blessed, forever and ever.
Blessed, praised, glorified, exalted, extolled, honored elevated and lauded be the Name of the holy one, Blessed is he- above and beyond any blessings and hymns, Praises and consolations which are uttered in the world; and say Amen. May there be abundant peace from Heaven, and life, upon us and upon all Israel; and say, Amen.
He who makes peace in his high holy places, may he bring peace upon us, and upon all Israel; and say Amen.
< Message edited by DaveW -- 5/4/2007 1:12:52 PM >
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RE: Repetitive prayer? - 5/4/2007 1:22:50 PM
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1lightseeker
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Covaan_Meshuga
Sorry -- I am pretty ignorant to a lot of religious tradition. Is the "Jesus Prayer" a creed? Is it the same thing as what I have heard called the "Sinner's Prayer," the words of which I don't know either? Do these prayers change from church organization to church organization?
I don't believe I am free of sin, because over the last few weeks, i have had a major attitude problem. I have had to ask G-d to forgive me several times.
The Jesus Prayer, "Lord Jesus Christ, Son of God, have mercy on me, a sinner" is simply invoking the name of Christ, our God, and bringing our attention back to Him. It is a way to meditate on His healing presence in the context of knowing that without His grace, mercy, help and strength, I am stuck in my sin. It is a prayer of surrender.
For more info, http://www.svots.edu/Faculty/Albert-Rossi/Articles/Saying-the-Jesus-Prayer.html
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RE: Repetitive prayer? - 5/4/2007 1:35:19 PM
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Lurker
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Who says that the Theotokos is dead though? She is mentioned in the scriptures as being alive in Heaven. And we have the testimony of the early Church that tells of her being raised up by her Son and glorified. So, the prohibition against talking to the dead does not apply at all to her. She is not dead for all who live in Christ are not dead. It is the Theotokos who is the woman in Revelation 12. She has been taken up to Heaven by her Son and given a place of honour befitting her. How wonderous and marvelous is Our God!
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Do not be afraid of Christ! He takes nothing away, and he gives you everything. When we give ourselves to him, we receive a hundredfold in return. Yes, open, open wide the doors to Christ—and you will find true life.
-Pope Benedict XVI
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RE: Repetitive prayer? - 5/5/2007 9:50:41 PM
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RepentanceIsRequired
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Say what you mean and mean what you say. If you are praying something just because it is in a book but it is not being said from your heart and "have not love, then [you are] only a resounding gong or a clanging cymbal" I Cor. 13:1. But, if the only words that come to your mouth out of your heart and they are only but a few words that you can repeat, God will hear your every whispered word. I have just endured a very triffiling and serious crosroad in my marriage (it nearly ended on account of my actions), but many a day and night I could only tell Him "Thank You" because He allowed my sins to be revealed. I would have no other words to say. I was reading a book, and a woman wrote a prayer that she had read in another book during her journey, and when I read it I was astounded. They were the EXACT words of my wounded soul which was crying out for healing. I took that prayer and made a visual card of it and I used it as an aid for my healing. If you feel that what you are saying are just empty words, then they are just that (cause we all know you can't fool God). But if what you are reading and they are the words of your soul, then rejoice! for the Lord hears our every prayer!!
I love praying the Rosary. Our children (ages 4 and 5) say the "Now I lay me", the Lords Prayer and a Hail Mary before going to bed. And I believe they are beginning to live the grace that comes through prayer. I see a change in the attitude of my daughter (but that is not to say that this change comes only from the prayers I can only give glory to God for that!!). I like to have my "structured" prayer time before I head to work where I meditate on the Rosary, but then through out my day, I am continually praying or senidng Him my thoughts, if you will. I have a 60 min drive to work. I find that most of my questions and concerns come out in my prayers during this time. I will have the christian radio station going and songs will invoke prayers and praises as I drive. However I at times begin to feel disconnected when I have not prayed the Rosary or even the Lords prayer because those prayers (and like most have said if done correctly) zero in my focus on Jesus. Most of the time my attitude will plumit that day. When I haven't focused on Christ during my "structured" prayer times, I tend to push all my praying to the way side and I begin to try to figure things out on my own, outside of His will.
And Dave, thank you for sharing those prayers. I have never read those before (and I have much to learn yet) and I believe one will be added to my prayer repitore (sp?).
_____________________________
--Nicole--
<--- Mary the Muffinator.
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RE: Repetitive prayer? - 5/6/2007 4:24:27 PM
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JesKlu
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Lurker
quote:
ORIGINAL: catherwood
I love the picture of Gandalf at the Bridge of Khazadun when he is facing the Balrag! Go Gandalf!
Gandalf Rocks. :)
I think people have brought up good points. True prayer is from the heart with submission and affection. Charles Spurgeon use to say something to the effect that often times we talk to the Lord, but then there are times when we cry to Lord. When my kids complain, etc., sometimes I don't pay much attention (actually, probably most of the time) - but when my daughter broke her wrist when we were sled-riding the cry from her mouth wasn't a 'complaint'. It was a cry. The second I heard the tone of her voice in the cry I went running down the hill to her to see what was the matter. That is how it is with God.
Interesting POV. I like it. :)
quote:
Persistence in prayer out of fervency and strong desire for the thing asked for will get results. Vain repetition won't. The main problem with the 'Hail Mary's' and praying the Rosary is not a repetition of cries. It is that you are praying to the wrong god. Mary should never be prayed to, nor any other human being.
Hrmm, you are quite right in that vain repititious prayers are ineffective before God. (Matthew 6:7-8) But that's not to say that ALL repetitious prayers are vain. There are severeal instances where we see in the scriptures prayers that are to be repeated over and over. The most famous is the one given by Our Blessed Lord Jesus in the verses following his warning against vain prayers. I speak of course of The Lord's Prayer, found in Matthew 6:9-13. And also! The night before His arrest, our Blessed Lord Jesus prayed the same prayer over and over several times. (Matthew 26:33-44) And we see the angels in Heaven repeating “Holy, holy, holy is the Lord God Almighty, who was, and is, and is to come.” in Revelations 4:8.
So then, is the Rosary itself vain and reptitious? Well, it's certainly repetitive. But does that mean it's vain? To decide that I would imagine then that you should need to know how the Rosary is prayed. It's not too hard actually. Especially since 99% of the Rosary is based in Scripture. :)
I totally disagree, I think it is the exact opposite, 99% of the rosary is NOT scripturally based, since it is petitioning the dead to pray for us.
To start, one makes the sign of the Cross and prays, "In the Name of the Father, The Son, and the Holy Spirit."
Which is followed by the Our Father (Matthew 6:9-13 of course.)
That's fine
Next is three of the Hail Mary prayer, it's also quite scriptural and goes, "Hail Mary full of grace, the Lord is with you!" (Luke 1:28) it continues, "Blessed art thou amongst women and blessed is the fruit of thy womb Jesus! (Luke 1:42). The rest of it goes... "Holy Mary, mother of God. Pray FOR us sinners, now and in the hour of our death."
First, we know that Mary is Holy, she was made holy by the grace of her Son. She is called the mother of God, because she is indeed Our Blessed Saviour's mother! And the rest is not a prayer TO her, but asking her to pray FOR us. For we know that the prayer of a righteous man is powerful and effective (James 5:16) and Mary, as Our Blessed Saviour's bleoved mother, is righteous indeed. So by asking her to pray for us we are pleasing God who tells us through the apostle Paul, "First of all, then, I urge that supplications, prayers, intercessions, and thanksgivings be made for all men, for kings and all who are in high positions, that we may lead a quiet and peaceable life, godly and respectful in every way. This is good, and pleasing to God our Savior, who desires all men to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth" (1 Tim. 2:1–4)
As we are called to intercede via prayer for one another, so we can ask our fellow Christians to pray for us.
There is no comparison to asking a dead person to pray for us and a fellow Christian who is on earth, Alive, to pray for us.
Following the three Hail Marys, one says the Glory Be which goes, "Glory be to the Father, and to the Son, and to the Holy Spirit. As it was in the beginning, is now, and ever shall be, world without end. Amen."
That's ok
Next is another Our Father while announcing the first Mystery. As one prays the Rosary, we're called to meditate on specific instances from scriptures called "mysteries". The involve the birth and childhood of Our Blessed Lord Jesus, His earthly Ministry, His horrible punishment and crucifixion, and finally, His glorious resurrection! One typically meditates on theses scriptural instances whilst saying ten of the Hail Marys. The Hail Mary helps focus our mind on her Blessed Son and His life and love. After completing the ten Hail Mary prayers, (called a decade iirc) one then announces the next mystery (scriptural passage/lesson), says the Our Father, and meditates on the new mystery. Typically one says 5 mysteries during the course of praying the Rosary.
If the mysteries are about Christ's life, that is ok, but if they are about Mary, then they are not Ok, because she is not our Savior.
As one finishes the Rosary it's typically ended with the Salve Regina. It goes, "Hail holy Queen, Mother of mercy, our life, our sweetness, and our hope! To thee do we cry, poor banished children of Eve. To thee do we send up our sighs, mourning and weeping in this vale of tears. Turn, then, most gracious advocate, thine eyes of mercy toward us, and after this our exile show unto us the blessed fruit of thy womb, Jesus. O clement, O loving, O sweet Virgin Mary"
"Sounds like Mary worship to me"
The Salve Regina is a hymn of praise to the blessed mother of Our Lord, and it asks her to remember us to her Blessed Son Jesus. The entirety of the Rosary is centered on Jesus. While we do indeed ask His blessed mother to pray for us and remember us to Him, the focus is on her Son, Jesus. The mysteries we meditate on are of Our Blessed Lord's life.
Hope this explanation makes sense. :)
This is the kindof stuff that Jesus says not to do in Matthew 6:7
7"And when you pray, do not heap up empty phrases as the Gentiles do, for they think that they will be heard for their many words. 8Do not be like them, for your Father knows what you need before you ask him.
God keep, bless and lead you,
Catherwood
May Our most Blessed Lord Jesus bless you as well!
Lurker
_____________________________
And calling to him a child, he put him in the midst of them and said, "Truly, I say to you, unless you turn and become like children, you will never enter the kingdom of heaven.
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RE: Repetitive prayer? - 5/6/2007 6:29:43 PM
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Ezra
Posts: 1921
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quote:
The Jesus Prayer, "Lord Jesus Christ, Son of God, have mercy on me, a sinner" is simply invoking the name of Christ, our God, and bringing our attention back to Him.
This is not simply "invoking the name of Christ". Sinners pray the sinner's prayer -- "Lord be merciful to me a sinner" -- and saints pray the prayers of saints.
So for a saint to continue to pray the sinner's prayer repetitively is a blatant denial of what Christ has done and continues to do for those who have believed on Him, and received Him as Lord and Savior.
Here is the saint's prayer in contrast:
"Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who hath blessed us WITH ALL SPIRITUAL BLESSINGS IN HEAVENLY PLACES in Christ: According as He hath chosen us in Him, before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy AND WITHOUT BLAME before Him in love: having predestinated us unto THE ADOPTION OF CHILDREN by Jesus Christ to Himself, according to the good pleasure of His will. To the praise of the glory of His grace, wherein He hath MADE US ACCEPTED IN THE BELOVED. In whom we have REDEMPTION THROUGH HIS BLOOD, THE FORGIVENESS OF SINS, according to the riches of His grace" (Eph. 1:3-7).
Children of God (according to this passage) have already (1) received all spiritual blessings in Christ because they are the elect, and predesitnated to be conformed to the likeness of Christ; (2) are regarded as perfect by God through Christ's imputed righteousness; (3) have already received the "adoption" of sons, which means they have all the powers and privileges of adult sons of God; (4) have been fully accepted in Christ and reconciled to God; (5) have already been redeemed through the blood of Christ; and (5) have already had all their sins forgiven.
Therefore anyone who persists in the sinner's prayer after he is saved denies with his mouth and in his heart that God has saved him by His grace. That is called unbelief.
BTW all those who have been saved by God's grace are saints. Not just those "canonized" by "the Church". It is this false doctrine that has given rise to additional false doctrines and practices.
_____________________________
And whosoever will, let him take the Water of Life freely. Revelation 22:17
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RE: Repetitive prayer? - 5/6/2007 9:55:00 PM
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Covaan_Meshuga
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Ezra, thank you for your insights. I attended a gathering in a protestant church awhile back that made me very uncomfortable, and your post broached the problem I had with it. They gathering used the ancient elements of some of the churches: extreme simplicity of atmosphere, low candle light only, shadows, sounds of such elements as pebbles dropping into water. Then the leader began to lead the group of believers in a prayer, repeated several times, a prayer that said "L-rd be merciful unto me a sinner." I was very uncomfortable with the whole atmosphere. I don't think that I never sin, but something inside just said, "This isn't right."
I am, by far, more comfortable with prayers like the one you mentioned from Ephesians 1:3-7 and other Scriptures.
_____________________________
Abiyah
Why does He keep quoting Torah? Doesn't He know He's about to abolish it?
A tree's fruit is obvious; you have to look harder for the worm hole.
G-d has only one natural Son; EVERYONE else is adopted.
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RE: Repetitive prayer? - 5/6/2007 10:02:59 PM
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Ezra
Posts: 1921
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quote:
I was very uncomfortable with the whole atmosphere. I don't think that I never sin, but something inside just said, "This isn't right."
Abiyah:
You're welcome.
Since you are a child of God and a saint, the Lord showed you the truth by making you uncomfortable. We can both thank the Lord for that.
Saints do sin, as we see in Scripture. And if we say we have no sin, we deceive ourselves. But saints remain saints because of the indwelling Holy Spirit, by whom we have been sanctified.
_____________________________
And whosoever will, let him take the Water of Life freely. Revelation 22:17
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RE: Repetitive prayer? - 5/7/2007 6:45:29 AM
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1lightseeker
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Ezra
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The Jesus Prayer, "Lord Jesus Christ, Son of God, have mercy on me, a sinner" is simply invoking the name of Christ, our God, and bringing our attention back to Him.
This is not simply "invoking the name of Christ". Sinners pray the sinner's prayer -- "Lord be merciful to me a sinner" -- and saints pray the prayers of saints.
So for a saint to continue to pray the sinner's prayer repetitively is a blatant denial of what Christ has done and continues to do for those who have believed on Him, and received Him as Lord and Savior.
So you're saying I'm sinning when I pray the Jesus prayer because I admit that I sin?
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Here is the saint's prayer in contrast:
"Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who hath blessed us WITH ALL SPIRITUAL BLESSINGS IN HEAVENLY PLACES in Christ: According as He hath chosen us in Him, before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy AND WITHOUT BLAME before Him in love: having predestinated us unto THE ADOPTION OF CHILDREN by Jesus Christ to Himself, according to the good pleasure of His will. To the praise of the glory of His grace, wherein He hath MADE US ACCEPTED IN THE BELOVED. In whom we have REDEMPTION THROUGH HIS BLOOD, THE FORGIVENESS OF SINS, according to the riches of His grace" (Eph. 1:3-7).
Children of God (according to this passage) have already (1) received all spiritual blessings in Christ because they are the elect, and predesitnated to be conformed to the likeness of Christ; (2) are regarded as perfect by God through Christ's imputed righteousness; (3) have already received the "adoption" of sons, which means they have all the powers and privileges of adult sons of God; (4) have been fully accepted in Christ and reconciled to God; (5) have already been redeemed through the blood of Christ; and (5) have already had all their sins forgiven.
Therefore anyone who persists in the sinner's prayer after he is saved denies with his mouth and in his heart that God has saved him by His grace. That is called unbelief.
BTW all those who have been saved by God's grace are saints. Not just those "canonized" by "the Church". It is this false doctrine that has given rise to additional false doctrines and practices.
Yes, Christ comes to make us holy and actually conformed to His likeness, but there is a process, "If we confess our sins He is faithful and just to forgive us our sins and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness". 1 John 1:9. And the Lord's prayer, "forgive us our debts as we forgive our debtors."
But this is more about salvation issues than repetitive prayer. Some people repeat verses of Scripture, and by the way the Jesus prayer is from Scripture, it's prayed by the Publican because he knew he was a sinner in contrast to the Pharisee who was so glad that he wasn't.
< Message edited by 1lightseeker -- 5/7/2007 7:11:43 AM >
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RE: Repetitive prayer? - 5/7/2007 6:55:02 AM
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1lightseeker
Posts: 505
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Ezra
Saints do sin, as we see in Scripture. And if we say we have no sin, we deceive ourselves. But saints remain saints because of the indwelling Holy Spirit, by whom we have been sanctified.
we sin while we are sanctified? I was never comfortable with the whole invisibility cloak approach to my sin. I wanted help to not sin, not just for God to be blind to it.
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RE: Repetitive prayer? - 5/7/2007 7:19:19 AM
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Covaan_Meshuga
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Lightseeker, no one here is saying that G-d is blind to sin, which He is not, and I want help not to sin also. I was simply thanking Ezra for his insight because the prayer we were all told to pray and repeat in this particular circumstance made me uncomfortable. The prayer Ezra related says, copied from his post, "In whom we have REDEMPTION THROUGH HIS BLOOD, THE FORGIVENESS OF SINS, according to the riches of His grace" and yet it is a prayer of those "chosen us in Him."
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Abiyah
Why does He keep quoting Torah? Doesn't He know He's about to abolish it?
A tree's fruit is obvious; you have to look harder for the worm hole.
G-d has only one natural Son; EVERYONE else is adopted.
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RE: Repetitive prayer? - 5/7/2007 7:26:10 AM
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1lightseeker
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Covaan_Meshuga
Lightseeker, no one here is saying that G-d is blind to sin, which He is not, and I want help not to sin also. I was simply thanking Ezra for his insight because the prayer we were all told to pray and repeat in this particular circumstance made me uncomfortable. The prayer Ezra related says, copied from his post, "In whom we have REDEMPTION THROUGH HIS BLOOD, THE FORGIVENESS OF SINS, according to the riches of His grace" and yet it is a prayer of those "chosen us in Him."
I'm sorry that I was a little defensive with Ezra.
The service you described sounds like what I've read about the Emergent Church, where they take bits and pieces from different traditions. It sounds sort of Ecumenical and as much as I like eclectic arrangements, sometimes they don't work. Teachings need to be put in their proper context or there is distortion.
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RE: Repetitive prayer? - 5/7/2007 7:40:41 AM
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Covaan_Meshuga
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I know so little about the church, their terms, and their traditions. Sometimes, it boggles my mind -- all the new ideas they come up with, the renovations of worship. I see no purpose in them, other than to please people, but I believe worship is not for the purpose of pleasing people: it should be only to please the One we are worshiping. Some day, I may look into the ideas of the emergent church, but so far, with the minute amount I know, I am unimpressed. Perhaps this is what they were attempting.
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Abiyah
Why does He keep quoting Torah? Doesn't He know He's about to abolish it?
A tree's fruit is obvious; you have to look harder for the worm hole.
G-d has only one natural Son; EVERYONE else is adopted.
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RE: Repetitive prayer? - 5/7/2007 7:51:08 AM
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DaveW
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Lurker
Who says that the Theotokos is dead though? She is mentioned in the scriptures as being alive in Heaven. And we have the testimony of the early Church that tells of her being raised up by her Son and glorified. So, the prohibition against talking to the dead does not apply at all to her. ???
I assume you mean Mary = Theotokos, not a term or name I have heard before. At any rate, she is no longer alive here on earth. Therefore she is dead. Even though all believers are alive in HIM, whether here or in paradise, attempting communication is strictly forbidden with those who are not living here (on earth) with us.
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It is the Theotokos who is the woman in Revelation 12. She has been taken up to Heaven by her Son and given a place of honour befitting her. That is one intrepretation. We see the woman in Rev 12 as Israel, who gives birth to the Savior. The ongoing (for 2000 years) warfare to eliminate the Jewish people corresponds well with the dragon cont | | |
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