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RE: Purgatory and life after death - 1/21/2008 4:27:03 PM
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Heavendweller
Posts: 553
Joined: 12/22/2007
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Since praying for the souls in Purgatory is a common practice within Roman Catholicism, I would like to ask an important question. Where in Sacred Scripture do the Apostles, who were commissioned to establish the Church and her doctines, ever instruct us to pray for souls in Purgatory? I have looked and I don't see any instruction to pray for souls in Purgatory.
There are many portions of Sacred Scripture that instruct us to pray for those who are being persecuted for the faith, those who are unenlightened, those who are physically sick, those who are spiritually deceived, those who are weak in their faith, those in places of authority on earth, and those who have turned away from faith in Christ. Yet, I see no where in which we are instructed to pray for the dead.
With that said, I do believe that the Body of Christ is both that of those who are living on earth (the Church Militant), and those who are in Heaven, (the Church Triumphant). Our "mystic sweet communion" with them (as the author of "The Church's One Foundation describes it), is one in which we both honor, love, and worship the Lord Jesus Christ. For those who have died in the Lord are with God the Father, and the Son, before His throne praising Him day and night. For as Paul the Apostle says, "To be absent from the body is to be present with the Lord." Once we die, time for us no longer exists.
Here is another problem I have with the teaching of Purgatory. Those souls who are there can no longer pray for themselves, according to RCC teaching. There is absolutely nothing they can do for themselves, no devotions no prayers, nothing. Thus, they are dependent upon the prayers, deeds, and devotions of others, so to speak. Yet, if we are to work out our salvation with fear and trembling as Scripture tells us, then how does this work? These souls are helpless victims, wandering in the nether gloom, relying upon the prayers of those who are physically alive. And when does that poor soul, who so longs to be in Heaven, receive the benefit of those prayers?
Let's say for example, that two souls in Purgatory, we'll call them Debbie and Paul, are waiting to be released. As the living are praying for the dead, when are those prayers applied? And to whom are they applied first? After all, the living aren't even aware that Debbie and Paul are those particular souls that reside there. Somehow, at some point, (there's that matter of time again), Debbie and Paul are released. But when? And according to whose fervant prayer? And why is one released before the other since their release is not in the slightest connected to their faithfulness or their works any longer?
And what of all the "devotions" that seem to limit one's time in Purgatory, yet so many modern RC believe there is no time in Purgatory? I would venture to say that the ancient RC belief disagrees with this concept, and thus why the popes initiated various devotions which granted plenary or partial indulgences. But in the modern RC thought, if there is no time in Purgatory, why pray for those in Purgatory? The need to pray for those in Purgatory to be released from that place necessarily demands that there be a time frame. And further more, since one doesn't know for certain who really resides there, then to whom in particular are your prayers attributed? I have never heard of anyone praying for a specific person there, thus who can know that these prayers benefit anyone?
IOW, since the prayer for souls in Purgatory is a general one, how can one know when or if that prayer is granted to a particular soul there? I think finally, the whole idea of Purgatory is in opposition to Sacred Scripture.
"Come let us reason together" says the Lord. "Though your sins be as scarlet, they shall be white as snow. Though they be red as crimson, they shall be white as wool. If you are willing and obedient, you shall eat the good of the land; But if you refuse and rebel, you shall be devoured by the sword." For the mouth of the Lord has spoken. Isaiah 1:18-20
There really is no middle ground. Either God has accepted us as being in His Beloved, or we are living in opposition and rebellion towards Him. And those who are in the first category will be taken into glory to meet their blessed God and abide with Him forever. And the latter are excluded from the presence of God forever.
Is our God a just God? Most certainly. For everyone will receive his due reward when he faces Jesus Christ in judgment. Each of us will be rewarded according to what we have done and not done while here on earth. But as far as God requiring some sinless perfection of us here on earth, this cannot be accomplished. Holiness means being set apart from the world, but it does not require one to be without any flaw. Our Savior was and is the Only One who lived a sinless life and became the Lamb of God without spot or blemish. And He shall purify us, and continue the work of sanctification within us, as we submit to and obey Him.
"Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who has blessed us with every spiritual blessing in the heavenly places in Christ, even as He chose us in Him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and blameless before Him. He destined us in love to be His sons through Jesus Christ, according to the purpose of His will, to the praise of His glorious grace which He freely bestowed on us in the Beloved." Ephesians 1:3-6
HD
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RE: Purgatory and life after death - 1/22/2008 4:32:32 AM
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kelman
Posts: 3686
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: facedown
so it seems you're answers would be as follows:
1. yes.
2. when one is "saved"
option 2.a - not really certain Two out of three's not bad. As to option 2.a, I am certain.
quote:
this seems to be a little conjecture. regardless, you contend that ones "born again" spirit is "perfect. thus, we enter into a couple possibilities:
1) platonic dualism. anything spiritual is good, anything physical is bad (at least for now). You'll have to look for someone else to discuss Plato's philosophy. I look to Scripture for answers not to Greek philosophers.
quote:
2) if you "sin", you must not be saved, because people who abide in christ don't "sin"
Scripture doesn't say that and neither did I. So, both of what you consider "possibilities" – are, in fact, not.
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secondly, jesus didn't promise the thief he would go into "gods holy heaven" but to paradeisos or paradise. That's not true. We've been through this before - where God is is heaven and paradise is heaven and Christ went to be with the Father who is in heaven/paradise. Paradise is heaven where God is; and, where Jesus' spirit went - just as did the spirit of the thief.
Christ said He(His spirit) was going to the Father(Luke 23:46).
Christ said the thief would be with Him in paradise(Luke 23:43).
Christ said the Father is in heaven(Mat 6:9; 16:17).
God is in paradise (Rev 2:7).
Paul was caught up into the third heaven which is paradise (2Cor 12:2,4).
quote:
thirdly, the notion of "rapture" and that salvation is ultimately about "getting up and out" of the world cuts against the grain of so much, it's crazy. You argue with God not me if you don't think there is a rapture. Since "getting up and out" is to be in heaven - yep, I'd say that's what salvation is ultimately about - to be forevermore with Christ. Rather unfortunate you think that is going against the grain and "crazy".
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fourthly, luke 16? your trying to use luke 16 as "empirical proof"? right. because folks in hell can argue with folks in heaven.... Proof?...no. Evidence?....yes.
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here is what i understand "purgatory" to be - refinement. That's your first mistake - thinking Christ's sacrifice needs "refinement". Christ can’t accomplish the complete cleansing of sin – but you can….yeah, right.
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but if i understand your comments, it's plain wrong to pray for someone who's departed. Wrong....futile? Either one suffices. There is absolutely nothing in Scripture which would lead to the conclusion of praying to or for the dead.
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furthermore, john three speaks of flesh and spirit. The point Christ is making is that the spirit must be born from above to enter God’s holy heaven. That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit.
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but you seem to only pull a few fragments, and certainly seem to reject that jesus doesn't preach a partial salvation - nor are things of the "flesh" demonized. LOL.....who said the flesh is demonic? What other "fragments" of John 3 would you like to discuss? There is no such thing as a "partial" salvation other than the obvious - that it involves a life of sanctificaion and experiences its culmination when the body is glorified.
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...and the blood of Jesus Christ his Son cleanseth us from all sin. -1John 1:7 except of course... Nope, there is no "except of course".
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....for the sins of ones fleshly body, because that hasn't been perfected yet, and wont be until we're dead, right? What do you think Christ cleanses us from? And, why do you think He is not able to do what He says: ...and the blood of Jesus Christ his Son cleanseth us from all sin.
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so, back to the couple questions from my last post. i'm going to try and assume your answers in a little more detail: I guess there's little reason to attempt answers to questions you haven't even asked but still presume to answer for me.....interesting. Something tells me it'd take an entire box of wooden matches to burn all your strawmen.
_____________________________
“beware lest you lose the substance by grasping at the shadow”
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RE: Purgatory and life after death - 1/22/2008 4:35:58 AM
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kelman
Posts: 3686
Status: offline
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quote:
Let's say for example, that two souls in Purgatory, we'll call them Debbie and Paul, are waiting to be released. As the living are praying for the dead, when are those prayers applied? And what of the unfortunate individuals who are alone in this world - without family or friends? They have no one to offer prayers and masses for them to help bring about an "earlier release" from their torment. It would seem God make release from the torment of purgatory contingent upon "popularity".
_____________________________
“beware lest you lose the substance by grasping at the shadow”
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RE: Purgatory and life after death - 1/22/2008 6:31:08 AM
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Doghouse
Posts: 914
Joined: 8/25/2007
From: The Buckle of the Bible Belt
Status: offline
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quote:
Since praying for the souls in Purgatory is a common practice within Roman Catholicism, I would like to ask an important question. Where in Sacred Scripture do the Apostles, who were commissioned to establish the Church and her doctines, ever instruct us to pray for souls in Purgatory? I have looked and I don't see any instruction to pray for souls in Purgatory. 1 and 2 Maccabees for starters (prayers and sacrifices offered for the souls of the dead are efficacious for those souls...go ahead, tell me your Bible doesn't contain these references). This practice also comes to us from Judaism, per a previous post of mine.
quote:
There are many portions of Sacred Scripture that instruct us to pray for those who are being persecuted for the faith, those who are unenlightened, those who are physically sick, those who are spiritually deceived, those who are weak in their faith, those in places of authority on earth, and those who have turned away from faith in Christ. Yet, I see no where in which we are instructed to pray for the dead. You have excised this practice from your canon of Scripture by your acceptence of 66 Books. The preference of the Jewish canon selected by the reformers over the Helenic Canon accepted and used in faith for the 1,500 years previous was motivated by Luther's desire to strip the Church of any powers related to "indulgences", which was being widely abused at the time. Rather than correct the abuse - Luther excised the belief. And it remains so for "abridged" bible faithful to this day.
quote:
These souls are helpless victims, wandering in the nether gloom, relying upon the prayers of those who are physically alive. And when does that poor soul, who so longs to be in Heaven, receive the benefit of those prayers? Not exactly. The souls are being tested, or judged per 1 Cor 3. The prayers of the faithful are an appeal to God to be merciful in His just judgment for those short-comings and backslides of that soul while on earth, and the fact that the soul did not remediate that with confession and repentence before dying. The prayers offered on behalf of these souls have the effect of reflection and forgiveness by the one's on earth for the trespasses of the departed. In this exercise, the temporal injustice of the departed's transgressions is settled "until the last farthing has been paid" by the departed. This is a process - very well laid out in Scriptures.
quote:
As the living are praying for the dead, when are those prayers applied? And to whom are they applied first? After all, the living aren't even aware that Debbie and Paul are those particular souls that reside there. Somehow, at some point, (there's that matter of time again), Debbie and Paul are released. But when? And according to whose fervant prayer? And why is one released before the other since their release is not in the slightest connected to their faithfulness or their works any longer? The "release" of which you speak has nothing at all to do with the height of the pile of prayers offered for these souls. Go back and read through my last 6 or 7 posts or so. The purpose of this exercise is to serve temporal punishments, and the soul is released when these are served, or when the stain of sin has been rendered from the soul, or...use any descriptive language you want. We are asked to settle our sins with confession and repentence in this life; there is a remedy for our soul if we don't.
quote:
yet so many modern RC believe there is no time in Purgatory? Purgatory is a process that has a beginning and an end, therefore it is temporal, not eternal. So there may or may not be "time" in purgatory, but the point is that it is a temporal event. The temporal aspect of the refinement of the soul is nothing compared to an eternity in the presence of God, however - so it must be kept in perspective. The thing to take way is that purgatory is not an eternal process or state - hell is and heaven is.
quote:
For the mouth of the Lord has spoken. Isaiah 1:18-20 He spoke in verse 25, as well.
quote:
There really is no middle ground. Either God has accepted us as being in His Beloved, or we are living in opposition and rebellion towards Him. And those who are in the first category will be taken into glory to meet their blessed God and abide with Him forever. And the latter are excluded from the presence of God forever. As a catechumen then, I would ask the following question regarding this instruction - God accepts all who profess faith in Him and seek Him. Do we seek Him in our sin choices? Is sin reflective of OUR acceptence of Him? If we sin, are we in the former group, or the latter? If in the former, what then distinguishes us from the sinners in the latter group? If you say "faith", then we have to define just what this "faith" substance is - that which may be believed, but not put into practice? I could take this one statement, and and demonstrate that it is a mis-appropriation of the meaning of Scriptures - and eventually lead you back to an understanding that there must be a way, for the soul to be refined of iniquity in the case of the faithful who did not fully avail themselves of the guidance and disciplines of that faith, but did not abandon it to the point of a rejection of God, and an eternal condemnation for that rejection. This leads to "mortal" and "venial" sin and a distinction between that which demonstrates a complete rejection of faith, and that which represents an imperfect living of the disciplines and self-control demanded by tht faith.
quote:
And He shall purify us, and continue the work of sanctification within us, as we submit to and obey Him. And this work is completed...when? (from a temporal perspective)
"Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who has blessed us with every spiritual blessing in the heavenly places in Christ, even as He chose us in Him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and blameless before Him. He destined us in love to be His sons through Jesus Christ, according to the purpose of His will, to the praise of His glorious grace which He freely bestowed on us in the Beloved." Ephesians 1:3-6 Indeed...but it looks like "choice" and "options" to us - this is why we can justly be judged for what we do with what we have been blessed. So the wisdom of God's foreknowledge aside (that's His dominion isn't it, not ours...), we have to operate well within our faith by cooperating with the grace. And when we "over-ride" the influence of grace, when we lose the struggle with our flesh, we have been "chosen" and "destined" to remedy that state of loss with confession and repentence.
And if we fail to avail ourselves of the gifts and graces God has left for us, we will be rendered and purified to the extent required to burn away that dross and chaff, so that the gold and precious stones of our pristine souls may enter heaven.
< Message edited by Doghouse -- 1/22/2008 7:07:56 AM >
_____________________________
When someone virtuous turns away from virtue to commit iniquity...it is because of the iniquity he committed that he must die. But if he turns from the wickedness he has committed, he does what is right and just, he shall preserve his life" - Ez 18:25-28
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RE: Purgatory and life after death - 1/22/2008 8:16:06 PM
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PeterD
Posts: 435
Joined: 4/27/2007
Status: offline
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To whom this may concern,
For those of you who have hope in purgatory and for what it offers
you, what then do you say about Luther's Ninety-Five Theses which
is related to, "Purgatory and life after death"
http://www.iclnet.org/pub/resources/text/wittenberg/luther/web/ninetyfive.html
Here are a couple of the theses Martin Luther wrote down while he was a member of the
Roman Catholic Church.
In the Name our Lord Jesus Christ. Amen.
55. It must be the intention of the pope that if pardons, which are a very small thing, are celebrated with one bell, with single processions and ceremonies, then the Gospel, which is the very greatest thing, should be preached with a hundred bells, a hundred processions, a hundred ceremonies.
62. The true treasure of the Church is the Most Holy Gospel of the glory and the grace of God.
Heavendweller have you studied these writings and do you understand them from the Catholic's point of view?
PeterD
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RE: Purgatory and life after death - 1/23/2008 5:54:59 AM
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Doghouse
Posts: 914
Joined: 8/25/2007
From: The Buckle of the Bible Belt
Status: offline
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quote:
For those of you who have hope in purgatory and for what it offers you I don't know that anybody desires purgatory, but rather hopes for immediate entry into bliss.
However, we are thankful for the opportunity to be rid of the remaing stain of sin upon our souls in a process described by Paul.
As far as the Apostolic authority to bind and loose the sins of the faithful - show me how this practice is anti-Scriptural? Abuses of the 15th and 16th centuries noted, God will be the judge of all for mis-appropriations of His Gospel instructions - including mega-buck pastors who are more interested in being on Opra and peddling their latest book than administering to the needs of their congregants.
The abuse does not render the words of Scripture moot, it only calls for a remedy of the abuse. We shouldn't throw the baby out with the bath water....
_____________________________
When someone virtuous turns away from virtue to commit iniquity...it is because of the iniquity he committed that he must die. But if he turns from the wickedness he has committed, he does what is right and just, he shall preserve his life" - Ez 18:25-28
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RE: Purgatory and life after death - 2/1/2008 12:28:46 PM
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PeterD
Posts: 435
Joined: 4/27/2007
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Doghouse
quote:
For those of you who have hope in purgatory and for what it offers you I don't know that anybody desires purgatory, but rather hopes for immediate entry into bliss.
However, we are thankful for the opportunity to be rid of the remaing stain of sin upon our souls in a process described by Paul.
As far as the Apostolic authority to bind and loose the sins of the faithful - show me how this practice is anti-Scriptural? Abuses of the 15th and 16th centuries noted, God will be the judge of all for mis-appropriations of His Gospel instructions - including mega-buck pastors who are more interested in being on Opra and peddling their latest book than administering to the needs of their congregants.
The abuse does not render the words of Scripture moot, it only calls for a remedy of the abuse. We shouldn't throw the baby out with the bath water....
Hello Doghouse
Could you please send these scriptural writings that Paul describes about the opportunity to be rid of the remaing stain of sin upon our souls in purgatory?
Peter Daniel
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RE: Purgatory and life after death - 2/1/2008 12:59:39 PM
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JesKlu
Posts: 542
Joined: 4/16/2007
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Doghouse
quote:
Since praying for the souls in Purgatory is a common practice within Roman Catholicism, I would like to ask an important question. Where in Sacred Scripture do the Apostles, who were commissioned to establish the Church and her doctines, ever instruct us to pray for souls in Purgatory? I have looked and I don't see any instruction to pray for souls in Purgatory. 1 and 2 Maccabees for starters (prayers and sacrifices offered for the souls of the dead are efficacious for those souls...go ahead, tell me your Bible doesn't contain these references). This practice also comes to us from Judaism, per a previous post of mine.
quote:
There are many portions of Sacred Scripture that instruct us to pray for those who are being persecuted for the faith, those who are unenlightened, those who are physically sick, those who are spiritually deceived, those who are weak in their faith, those in places of authority on earth, and those who have turned away from faith in Christ. Yet, I see no where in which we are instructed to pray for the dead. You have excised this practice from your canon of Scripture by your acceptence of 66 Books. The preference of the Jewish canon selected by the reformers over the Helenic Canon accepted and used in faith for the 1,500 years previous was motivated by Luther's desire to strip the Church of any powers related to "indulgences", which was being widely abused at the time. Rather than correct the abuse - Luther excised the belief. And it remains so for "abridged" bible faithful to this day.
quote:
These souls are helpless victims, wandering in the nether gloom, relying upon the prayers of those who are physically alive. And when does that poor soul, who so longs to be in Heaven, receive the benefit of those prayers? Not exactly. The souls are being tested, or judged per 1 Cor 3. The prayers of the faithful are an appeal to God to be merciful in His just judgment for those short-comings and backslides of that soul while on earth, and the fact that the soul did not remediate that with confession and repentence before dying. The prayers offered on behalf of these souls have the effect of reflection and forgiveness by the one's on earth for the trespasses of the departed. In this exercise, the temporal injustice of the departed's transgressions is settled "until the last farthing has been paid" by the departed. This is a process - very well laid out in Scriptures.
quote:
As the living are praying for the dead, when are those prayers applied? And to whom are they applied first? After all, the living aren't even aware that Debbie and Paul are those particular souls that reside there. Somehow, at some point, (there's that matter of time again), Debbie and Paul are released. But when? And according to whose fervant prayer? And why is one released before the other since their release is not in the slightest connected to their faithfulness or their works any longer? The "release" of which you speak has nothing at all to do with the height of the pile of prayers offered for these souls. Go back and read through my last 6 or 7 posts or so. The purpose of this exercise is to serve temporal punishments, and the soul is released when these are served, or when the stain of sin has been rendered from the soul, or...use any descriptive language you want. We are asked to settle our sins with confession and repentence in this life; there is a remedy for our soul if we don't.
quote:
yet so many modern RC believe there is no time in Purgatory? Purgatory is a process that has a beginning and an end, therefore it is temporal, not eternal. So there may or may not be "time" in purgatory, but the point is that it is a temporal event. The temporal aspect of the refinement of the soul is nothing compared to an eternity in the presence of God, however - so it must be kept in perspective. The thing to take way is that purgatory is not an eternal process or state - hell is and heaven is.
quote:
For the mouth of the Lord has spoken. Isaiah 1:18-20 He spoke in verse 25, as well.
quote:
There really is no middle ground. Either God has accepted us as being in His Beloved, or we are living in opposition and rebellion towards Him. And those who are in the first category will be taken into glory to meet their blessed God and abide with Him forever. And the latter are excluded from the presence of God forever. As a catechumen then, I would ask the following question regarding this instruction - God accepts all who profess faith in Him and seek Him. Do we seek Him in our sin choices? Is sin reflective of OUR acceptence of Him? If we sin, are we in the former group, or the latter? If in the former, what then distinguishes us from the sinners in the latter group? If you say "faith", then we have to define just what this "faith" substance is - that which may be believed, but not put into practice? I could take this one statement, and and demonstrate that it is a mis-appropriation of the meaning of Scriptures - and eventually lead you back to an understanding that there must be a way, for the soul to be refined of iniquity in the case of the faithful who did not fully avail themselves of the guidance and disciplines of that faith, but did not abandon it to the point of a rejection of God, and an eternal condemnation for that rejection. This leads to "mortal" and "venial" sin and a distinction between that which demonstrates a complete rejection of faith, and that which represents an imperfect living of the disciplines and self-control demanded by tht faith.
quote:
And He shall purify us, and continue the work of sanctification within us, as we submit to and obey Him. And this work is completed...when? (from a temporal perspective)
"Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who has blessed us with every spiritual blessing in the heavenly places in Christ, even as He chose us in Him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and blameless before Him. He destined us in love to be His sons through Jesus Christ, according to the purpose of His will, to the praise of His glorious grace which He freely bestowed on us in the Beloved." Ephesians 1:3-6 Indeed...but it looks like "choice" and "options" to us - this is why we can justly be judged for what we do with what we have been blessed. So the wisdom of God's foreknowledge aside (that's His dominion isn't it, not ours...), we have to operate well within our faith by cooperating with the grace. And when we "over-ride" the influence of grace, when we lose the struggle with our flesh, we have been "chosen" and "destined" to remedy that state of loss with confession and repentence.
And if we fail to avail ourselves of the gifts and graces God has left for us, we will be rendered and purified to the extent required to burn away that dross and chaff, so that the gold and precious stones of our pristine souls may enter heaven.
Hello Doghouse.
About the practice of praying for the dead coming from Judaism, as you have mentioned, I looked up the Kaddish prayer, and to be quite honest, these Orthodox Jews are not praying for the dead person, they are praising God.
About the 4 books of the Maccabees, the Jewish people do not even consider these books scripture. Who are we to tell them they're wrong. When they put the Old Testament together, guided by the Holy Spirit, they knew these books contradict the Law and Prophets. So they don't belong in scripture. And for those who follow them as though they are from scripture, you should look into history and find out why you are following them in the first place.
Even most of the Early Church Fathers, including Jerome, did not consider these books scripture either. And I believe they were led by the Holy Spirit in this matter.
The table below shows which of the disputed Old Testament books are included in Christian catalogs of canonical books up to the eighth century. Y indicates that the book is plainly listed as Holy Scripture; N indicates that it is placed in an inferior class of books; M indicates that the terminology of the author may be construed as a reference to the book as Holy Scripture. An S indicates that the author does not mention the book in his catalog, which implies its rejection. See notes on the authorities below.
KEY
Esth. - Esther
Bar. - Baruch
Eccl. - Ecclesiasticus
Wisd. - Wisdom of Solomon
Tob. - Tobit
Jud. - Judith
Mac. - First and Second Maccabees
These early Churh fathers include,
1. Greek Authors. Date Esth. Bar. Eccl. Wisd. Tob. Jud. Mac.
Melito 160 S S S S S S S
Origen 225 Y M S S S S N
Cyril of Jerusalem 348 Y Y N N N N N
Council of Laodicea 363 Y Y S S S S S
Athanasius 367 N Y N N N N S
Gregory of Nazianzus 380 S S S S S S S
Amphilocius of Iconium 380 M S S S S S S
Epiphanius 385 Y S N N S S S
Stichometry of Niceph. 550 N Y N N N N N
Synopsis of Sac. Scrip. 550 N S N N N N S
Leontius 590 S S S S S S S
List of the Sixty Books 650 N S N N N N N
John of Damascus 730 Y S N N S S S
2. Syrian Greek. Date Esth. Bar. Eccl. Wisd. Tob. Jud. Mac.
"Apostolic Canons" 380 Y S N S S M Y
3. Latin Authors.* Date Esth. Bar. Eccl. Wisd. Tob. Jud. Mac.
Hilary of Poitiers 360 Y M S S M M S
Cheltenham List 360 Y M S M Y Y Y
Rufinus 380 Y M N N N N N
Jerome 390 Y M N N N N N
http://www.bible-researcher.com/canon4.html
Pretty much all of these early Church Fathers rejected the Apocrypha as scripture.
And about the Kaddish, like I said, these Jewish people are not praying for the dead, they are praising God. I would say they are much better off than certain Catholics in this way.
MOURNER'S KADDISH
An English Translation
Glorified and sanctified be God's great name throughout the world which He has created according to His will. May He establish His kingdom in your lifetime and during your days, and within the life of the entire House of Israel, speedily and soon; and say, Amen.
May His great name be blessed forever and to all eternity.
Blessed and praised, glorified and exalted, extolled and honored, adored and lauded be the name of the Holy One, blessed be He, beyond all the blessings and hymns, praises and consolations that are ever spoken in the world; and say, Amen.
May there be abundant peace from heaven, and life, for us
and for all Israel; and say, Amen.
He who creates peace in His celestial heights, may He create peace for us and for all Israel; and say, Amen.
http://www.ou.org/yerushalayim/kadish.htm
Jessica
< Message edited by JesKlu -- 2/1/2008 1:10:18 PM >
_____________________________
And calling to him a child, he put him in the midst of them and said, "Truly, I say to you, unless you turn and become like children, you will never enter the kingdom of heaven.
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RE: Purgatory and life after death - 2/1/2008 4:16:06 PM
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Doghouse
Posts: 914
Joined: 8/25/2007
From: The Buckle of the Bible Belt
Status: offline
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quote:
Could you please send these scriptural writings that Paul describes about the opportunity to be rid of the remaing stain of sin upon our souls in purgatory?
1 Cor 3:10-15 - " According to the grace of God given to me, like a wise master builder I laid a foundation, and another is building upon it. But each one must be careful how he builds upon it, for no one can lay a foundation other than the one that is there, namely, Jesus Christ. If anyone builds on this foundation with gold, silver, precious stones, wood, hay, or straw, the work of each will come to light, for the Day will disclose it. It will be revealed with fire, and the fire (itself) will test the quality of each one's work. If the work stands that someone built upon the foundation, that person will receive a wage. But if someone's work is burned up, that one will suffer loss; the person will be saved, but only as through fire."
The use of "each" and "anyone' is compelling to the argument that this is not merely meant for pastoral leadership and those that would call themselves teacher, but indeed speaks to each believer individually as to how they build their body of action and results upon the foundation of Christ in their lives. Faith saves, but there is a loss for not building well with that which we have been given - by God.
Luke 12:58-59 - "If you are to go with your opponent before a magistrate, make an effort to settle the matter on the way; otherwise your opponent will turn you over to the judge, and the judge hand you over to the constable, and the constable throw you into prison. I say to you, you will not be released until you have paid the last penny."
This is describing the temporal nature of the results of our actions and negates the teaching and instruction that Jesus picks up the tab for temporal punishments. We may serve our temporal punishments while we can on this earth (by seeking forgiveness, and forgiving those who trespass against us...), or we can wait until we deal with those temporal punishments before God, where we will be rendered until pure - "...you will not be released until you have paid the last penny..."
This, of course is echoed in Matt, as well - Matt 5:25-26 - "Settle with your opponent quickly while on the way to court with him. Otherwise your opponent will hand you over to the judge, and the judge will hand you over to the guard, and you will be thrown into prison. Amen, I say to you, you will not be released until you have paid the last penny."
Additionally - two verses up - Matt 5:23-25 "Therefore, if you bring your gift to the altar, and there recall that your brother has anything against you, leave your gift there at the altar, go first and be reconciled with your brother, and then come and offer your gift."
As an example - I asked forgiveness from the both of you for rushing to judgment about the RCIA story in another thread. I did not have all the facts and I was wrong to do what I did and say what I said. Jesus's death on the cross did not remove the responsibility from me to apologize to you, nor did it remove the hurt and injustice you may have felt over my remarks. So - we are not only accountable to God, but in professing "Christian" - we are accountable to each other as well. The question to ask on this website is - within other faiths represented here, is there indeed an instruction of the obligation to one another and the "love thy neighbor as self" heading that includes the realization and serving of just punishments for sinful actions?
If we do not step up and reconcile with our brothers and sisters (or at least make effort sin that direction), we get to serve those punishments out post-humously. The collective name for this doctrine is "purgatory".
quote:
About the 4 books of the Maccabees, the Jewish people do not even consider these books scripture. Yes, but Christians did. If you understand what the "Jewish Canon" is, verses what the "Hellenic Canon" is, and understand the history behind these two - it becomes much more clear as to which Canon is the "Christian" Canon.
In the early days of Christianity, Judaism was being threatened. The "Jewish" Canon was a reaction to define itself against Christianity. The Septuagint (the "LXX") was the Scripture of St. Paul and St. Timorthy - the Greek translation of Jewish Scriptures read throughout the Hellenic world (Greek was the language of trade - if you were in business, you did it in Greek).
Some examples of the subtleties of the Septuagint:
Hebrews 10:5 quotes Psalm 40:7 as a messianic prophecy: "Therefore, when He comes into the world, He says, "sacrifice and offering Thou hast not desired, but a body Thou hast prepared for Me."
The author has directly quoted from the LXX. A quick turn to modern Bibles will confirm that the Hebrew text reads:
"Sacrifice and meal offering Thou hast not desired; My ears Thou hast opened. "
If we follow this latter reading, the author of Hebrews has not only misquoted the passage, but has made it an important plank of his argument. Only the rendering of the LXX justifies this as a Messianic passage. Did the author of Hebrews get it wrong? Was it an inspired mistake? A footnote in most Bibles says that Paul "quotes the somewhat different Greek version and interprets it as Christ's self-oblation."
In Acts 7:14, St. Stephen relates the story of the Israelite nation and refers to 75 people who traveled from Canaan to Egypt in the emigration of Jacob's family. This is not what Genesis 46 states in the KJV, where it catalogues 70 sojourners. But the LXX lists 75 people, confirming St. Stephen's account, with the differences accounted for by the grand- and great-grandchildren of Joseph (Gen 46:20-22).
Most importantly, it is only in the LXX that Isaiah's prophecy of the Virgin Birth makes its bold appearance (Is 7:14). The Hebrew text uses the word "woman" ("marah") instead of "virgin" ("parthenos"). In their earliest confrontations with Christians, the Jews objected most strongly to this verse being used to support of Jesus' Messiahship. The Jews claimed that Isaiah was prophesying of King Hezekiah and he knew nothing of a miraculous virgin birth. The Septuagint, they said, had been tampered with. The early Christians responded by claiming that it was not they, but the Jews who had cut passages out of the Hebrew text out of envy. (Justin Martyr, Trypho, 71-73)
If we agree with the ancient Jews that the LXX translation was a faulty translation, then why is this inferior text part of Holy, Inspired Scripture? If we follow the usage of the New Testament, could it not be said that the LXX was considered trustworthy and even preferred by the Apostles? This is not out of harmony with the testimony of the Early Church in the Greek speaking world, which, as partly evidenced by the earlier patristic quotation, regarded it as a sound and inspired translation.
It is true there is no direct quotation in the New Testament from the Apocrypha. But we should recognize that there are allusions to and use of the Deuterocanonicals.
For instance, when the Sadducees came to Jesus to challenge him on the issue of the Resurrection (Mt 22:23-33), they refer to seven brothers among them who, in turn, married the same woman, dying before having children. This story is neither ludicrous nor an invention. Rather, it is a speculative question probably based on the situation of Sarah in Tobit (Tob 3:7-17). She found herself facing perpetual virginity as seven marriages had resulted in death, each husband dying on the night of their marriage. "In the resurrection therefore whose wife of the seven shall she be?" asked the Sadducees regarding Sarah's plight.
Jesus' parable of the widow and the uncaring judge (Lk 18:1-8) is a variation of a set of proverbs found in the Wisdom of Sirach (Ecclus 35:13-15).
St. Paul makes numerous allusions to the wisdom and power of God which have powerful affinity with the Book of Wisdom, the theology of which is strongly Christian. One fine example of this is found in Romans:
Therefore, just as through one man sin entered into the world, and death through sin, and so death spread to all mean, because all sinned. (Rom 5:12)
This understanding of the Fall does not depend solely on the passage in Genesis, which does not directly blame the existence of sin today on Adam's transgression. It is there, but St. Paul's exegesis of this passage is informed by Wisdom:
But by the envy of the devil, death entered the world, and they who are in his possession experience it. (Wis 2:24)
It is true that the authors do not call these books inspired. But what books do the NT authors declare to be inspired? The argument can work both ways. There are seventeen books the New Testament does not quote—Joshua, Judges, Ezekiel, Ezra/Nehemiah and Chronicles to name but a few. Are these then dubious? The nearest citation to the Chronicles is, with a stretch of details, a reference by Jesus to the killing of a certain Zechariah (Mt 23:35, Lk 11:51). Does an indirect reference like this really establish that the Chronicles are inspired?
quote:
Origen 225 Y M S S S S N Origen, in his commentaries on the Gospels of St. John and St. Matthew, cites Judith, Wisdom, Ecclesiasticus, additions to Daniel and Esdras I. Other Fathers before Origen, such as Clement of Rome, Polycarp, Clement of Alexandria and Irenaeus all quote from the Deuterocanonicals. It is difficult to find a Father who does not quote them as Scripture.
St. Athanasius, in his festal letter of 367, lists the books of the Old Testament and includes in his canon those parts of the Deuterocanonicals associated with Jeremiah and Daniel, while excluding the whole of Esther. He also commends other books of the Deuterocanonicals as suitable for the instruction of new Christians, although he does not rate them as Scripture. St. Athanasius' intent in writing the letter was to exclude the apocryphal and spurious gospels of the second century and later, not the writings we know today as the Deuterocanonicals.
Origen, whon you cited earlier, is worth quoting on this subject:
[W]hen we notice [canonical differences between the Hebrew & LXX], we are [urged] to reject as spurious the copies in use in our Churches, and enjoin the brotherhood to put away the sacred books current among them, and to coax the Jews.... Are we to suppose that that Providence which in the sacred Scriptures has ministered to the edification of all the Churches of Christ, had no thought for those bought with a price, for whom Christ died...? In all these cases consider whether it would not be well to remember the words, "Thou shalt not remove the ancient landmarks which thy fathers have set." (Ep Afr 4,5) Origen is speaking against the removal of Books to form a shorter Canon - and not the opposite as you have stated.
Although the council of Trent was late, it did not mark a change in the canon, but rather reflected the use of Scripture since the time of the Apostles. Generally, nobody needs to clarify that which is not under dispute. Up to then Rome had no need to define her canon. No church in the world, from Armenia to Ethiopia to Rome, had questioned the Deuterocanonicals. Only a minor sliver of Christianity, preferring their own wisdom to that of the rest of Christendom, prompted the Canon to be defined.
Were the sons of the Pharisees spiritually fit to establish the canon? Does the Old Testament belong to Jews or Christians? The question for us does not revolve around what was in the Jewish Old Testament, but the Christian one. Who are the competent authorities on that question? If we respect the Jewish decision on the Canon, should we then reconsider our position regarding the Messiah, the Sabbath and the Law?
Not sure what the above dissertation has to do with purgatory, Jes - but I hope it was insightful for you.
< Message edited by Doghouse -- 2/1/2008 4:33:38 PM >
_____________________________
When someone virtuous turns away from virtue to commit iniquity...it is because of the iniquity he committed that he must die. But if he turns from the wickedness he has committed, he does what is right and just, he shall preserve his life" - Ez 18:25-28
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RE: Purgatory and life after death - 2/1/2008 7:07:09 PM
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PeterD
Posts: 435
Joined: 4/27/2007
Status: offline
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Hello Doghouse
Thank you for the Good News you gave regarding Jessica and I relating to the RCIA. I am also trying to improve my English skills so not to envoke one another. I also hope this scripture will help explain what I believe to be true about Christian forgiveness and reconciliation.
Matthew 5:24
24leave your gift there before the altar and go. First be reconciled to your brother, and then come and offer your gift.
Colossians 3:11-17
11 Here there is not Greek and Jew, circumcised and uncircumcised, barbarian, Scythian, slave, free; but Christ is all, and in all.
12 Put on then, as God’s chosen ones, holy and beloved, compassionate hearts, kindness, humility, meekness, and patience, 13 bearing with one another and, if one has a complaint against another, forgiving each other; as the Lord has forgiven you, so you also must forgive. 14And above all these put on love, who binds everything together in perfect harmony. 15And let the peace of Christ rule in your hearts, to which indeed you were called in one body. And be thankful. 16Let the word of Christ dwell in you richly, teaching and admonishing one another in all wisdom, singing psalms and hymns and spiritual songs, with thankfulness in your hearts to God. 17And whatever you do, in word or deed, do everything in the name of the Lord Jesus, giving thanks to God the Father through him.
I forgive you Doghouse my brother who is in Jesus Name and I thank you Heavenly Father for giving us your strenght to forgive and Love one anotherin your Name!!!
Now, I'm going to play some spiritual songs on my violin because, this is also what the priest said that day about my violin repair and making being a "good service to the people!!!"
PeterD
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RE: Purgatory and life after death - 2/2/2008 5:36:29 AM
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Doghouse
Posts: 914
Joined: 8/25/2007
From: The Buckle of the Bible Belt
Status: offline
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quote:
I forgive you Doghouse my brother who is in Jesus Name and I thank you Heavenly Father for giving us your strenght to forgive and Love one anotherin your Name!!! I appreciate the dialog with both of you.
quote:
Now, I'm going to play some spiritual songs on my violin because, this is also what the priest said that day about my violin repair and making being a "good service to the people!!!" To God's ears...I wish I were there to enjoy it as well.
_____________________________
When someone virtuous turns away from virtue to commit iniquity...it is because of the iniquity he committed that he must die. But if he turns from the wickedness he has committed, he does what is right and just, he shall preserve his life" - Ez 18:25-28
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RE: Purgatory and life after death - 2/2/2008 8:15:11 PM
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JesKlu
Posts: 542
Joined: 4/16/2007
Status: offline
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Hello Doghouse.
I forgive you Doghouse. You are my brother in the Lord Jesus, and it is an honor to be able to forgive you and one another, as God in Christ forgave us.
Ephesians 4:25-32
25 Therefore, having put away falsehood, let each one of you speak the truth with his neighbor, for we are members one of another. 26 Be angry and do not sin; do not let the sun go down on your anger, 27 and give no opportunity to the devil. 28 Let the thief no longer steal, but rather let him labor, doing honest work with his own hands, so that he may have something to share with anyone in need. 29 Let no corrupting talk come out of your mouths, but only such as is good for building up, as fits the occasion, that it may give grace to those who hear. 30 And do not grieve the Holy Spirit of God, by whom you were sealed for the day of redemption. 31 Let all bitterness and wrath and anger and clamor and slander be put away from you, along with all malice. 32 Be kind to one another, tenderhearted, forgiving one another, as God in Christ forgave you.
I am struck to the heart about this whole thing. And it brings me back to my earlier memories of how much I needed Jesus' forgiveness. So I understand how important it is to be forgiven.
Peace be with you.
Your sister in Christ,
Jessica
_____________________________
And calling to him a child, he put him in the midst of them and said, "Truly, I say to you, unless you turn and become like children, you will never enter the kingdom of heaven.
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RE: Purgatory and life after death - 2/3/2008 12:41:51 AM
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Ezra
Posts: 1786
Status: offline
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quote:
I have looked and I don't see any instruction to pray for souls in Purgatory.
You will look in vain for any such instructions, since the dogma of Purgatory is purely a man-made invention and a blatant denial of the efficacy of the finished redemptive work of Christ.
Every true Christian is washed with Christ's blood and clothed with His righteousness. Every Christian is also the temple of the Holy Spirit. That is why Purgatory is pure fiction.
_____________________________
And whosoever will, let him take the Water of Life freely. Revelation 22:17
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RE: Purgatory and life after death - 2/3/2008 12:55:26 PM
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Doghouse
Posts: 914
Joined: 8/25/2007
From: The Buckle of the Bible Belt
Status: offline
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quote:
since the dogma of Purgatory is purely a man-made invention and a blatant denial of the efficacy of the finished redemptive work of Christ A couple of comments would be...
- Oh, without offering any evidence, any argument, any substatiation, any logic or analysis, since you said it, and you are the ultimate authority, we all should just drop everything and pick up the cross of Ezra...?
- Nobody in Christendom believed as you do, until the 15th century and the secession of Luther. So - just who is inventing what here?
_____________________________
When someone virtuous turns away from virtue to commit iniquity...it is because of the iniquity he committed that he must die. But if he turns from the wickedness he has committed, he does what is right and just, he shall preserve his life" - Ez 18:25-28
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RE: Purgatory and life after death - 2/3/2008 11:38:12 PM
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gatolover
Posts: 545
Joined: 6/23/2006
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Hi kelman,
Long time no talk to. I'm excited about Lent beginning Wednesday.
You wrote to facedown [regarding the thief on the cross next to
Christ]:
quote:
That's not true. We've been through this before - where God is is heaven and paradise is heaven and Christ went to be with the Father who is in heaven/paradise. Paradise is heaven where God is; and, where Jesus' spirit went - just as did the spirit of the thief.
Ummm...Our Lord's Body was laid in a tomb for three days; the Creed and Scripture agree He descended to the spirits in prison; and His own words confirm that He had "not yet ascended to the Father" when Mary Magdalene reached out to touch Him after His Resurrection. What "paradise" exactly did Christ take the thief to immediately upon his death?
quote:
Christ said He(His spirit) was going to the Father(Luke 23:46).
You have added "His spirit" based on your interpretation. Scripture does not say it. Just FYI.
quote:
Paul was caught up into the third heaven which is paradise (2Cor 12:2,4).
Interesting that you believe you have all the levels of heaven figured out and whose "spirit" is where at any given time. Incredible!
quote:
You argue with God not me if you don't think there is a rapture.
Are you serious? Why would our God and Lord Jesus Christ ever tell us to face persecution for His Name if His intention was to get us all out of dodge before the heat began?? The "rapture," my friend, is a man-made, wishful-thinking "dogma" created by those who believe the Lord just pretends we're holy when we're not. "Snow-covered dunghills," is the way Luther termed it, IIRC. Right...Our Most Sovereign, Holy God just pretends we're holy and righteous enough to enjoy the Beatific Vision? Turns a "blind eye" to our sins and sinful tendencies once we're dead? Please. Scripture clearly affirms that "nothing unclean" shall enter Heaven; i.e., the Presence of God. That takes a bit of cleaning up for most people who love the Lord, IMHO.
quote:
Since "getting up and out" is to be in heaven - yep, I'd say that's what salvation is ultimately about - to be forevermore with Christ.
Hmm....I'm thinking that salvation is more about becoming like Christ, Who sacrificed Himself for us. If we're just looking to "getting up and out," that seems a bit selfish and totally goes against what Christ tried to teach in the first place. I always thought the Gospel was all about dying to self, taking up His Cross and following Him. I'm not sure where you find the idea of a "rapture" compatible with Scripture. Sure, it probably feels good to believe it, but Christ did not teach it and it isn't Truth.
facedown wrote: quote:
here is what i understand "purgatory" to be - refinement.
You responded: quote:
That's your first mistake - thinking Christ's sacrifice needs "refinement". Christ can’t accomplish the complete cleansing of sin – but you can….yeah, right.
With all due respect, facedown did not say anything remotely close to your interpretation that "Christ's sacrifice needs refinement." Honestly, are you just here to argue? Christ's sacrifice is quite efficacious in cleansing us of sin, IF we abide in Him, follow His statutes, and love unconditionally. Maybe you perfectly do all those things, kelman, but some of us poor slobs fall on occasion. Or perhaps, it's just easier to believe one can "accept/believe" on the salvation of Christ and continue to live as one chooses? It is easier, but the whole concept does not line up with Scripture, if one reads the Gospels.
quote:
The point Christ is making is that the spirit must be born from above to enter God’s holy heaven. That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit.
But what God created is "good," according to Scripture, and the Resurrection of Christ is proof of a bodily resurrection. I'm puzzled at your propensity to separate flesh and spirit. Maybe you can elaborate?
quote:
What do you think Christ cleanses us from? And, why do you think He is not able to do what He says: ...and the blood of Jesus Christ his Son cleanseth us from all sin.
And what of the sins committed after we place our faith in Christ's redemptive work? No biggie??
It's good to "talk" again, kelman. Hope your new year is going well.
Pax Christi,
gatolover
P.S. Dear facedown, I didn't mean to answer for you, just thought a few comments might be necessary. I'm quite confident you're more than able to address kelman yourself. [Didn't intend to step on any toes.]
P.P.S.S. Nice dissertation, Doghouse! Well done!
P.P.P.S.S.S. Peter Daniel and Jessica...I'm glad you're here. God bless you both.
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RE: Purgatory and life after death - 2/3/2008 11:56:31 PM
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Ezra
Posts: 1786
Status: offline
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quote:
- Oh, without offering any evidence, any argument, any substatiation, any logic or analysis, since you said it, and you are the ultimate authority, we all should just drop everything and pick up the cross of Ezra...?
When dealing with something fictitious, we do not need to write a dissertation to refute it. Fables should be simply dismissed out of hand.
On the other hand, if you wish to tell us what the Bible reveals about the finished redemptive work of Christ, please do so. It will automatically refute Purgatory.
Long before Luther came on the scene, Paul taught that to be absent from the body is to be present with the Lord (not relegated to some inferno).
_____________________________
And whosoever will, let him take the Water of Life freely. Revelation 22:17
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RE: Purgatory and life after death - 2/4/2008 6:27:39 AM
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