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RE: Purgatory and life after death - 1/14/2008 2:07:53 PM
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Doghouse
Posts: 889
Joined: 8/25/2007
From: The Buckle of the Bible Belt
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quote:
I very easily demonstrated that some of the most famous Catholics in the last 1,000 years did in fact have a wildly elaborate doctrine of Purgatory. Hence, it is not imagination but fact. You only demonstrated to me that people have taken the simple doctrine and created almost a Catechism around it. The doctrine is still what it it, and it is neatly tucked away within the Catechism, and is as simple as I laid it out. Aquinas was one of the greatest minds ever, and to consider that he started with a fairly pristine slate and proceded to chart out our philosophical understanding of "intellect" and "will" was pretty amazing. And certainly his work influenced some of the people who do indeed try to discern dvine revelation to the Church. And indeed, his status as being a canonized aint is the Church's acknowledgement that he had something very profound to offer in the development of our understanding of God's revelation of faith to us.
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While they do not perfectly reflect my faith, they are quite close. All this demonstrates to me is the inability to surrender one's own control of their own definition of faith, and place that control in something else - namely the authority represented by those that authorized and commissioned the penning of the Westminster or Heidelberg statements of faith. Believers are flexible - faith is not. I see this flipped around for many on this site who refuse to concede that there may be others out there more adept at discernment than one's own self.
The challenge then is to throw it back - if a person is so great at discernment, then why not do it for the whole Body, so that other believers may benefit from this God-given gift of discernement of the details of faith practice. That would at least be the broom to start getting everyone back in the same dustpan.
quote:
Don't post statements for which you do not want a response. My point in the subject text is that the Roman Catholic doctrine of purgatory is not elaborate, but some assume it is. I suppose the point is proven that where some assume eleborate in one place, that must mean elaborate in all places...
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but does not receive them among the canonical Scriptures The difference between the Protestant Canon (who authorizes that, by the way...?) and the Roman Catholic Canon is the difference between the Hebrew Canon and the Hellenic Canon. Catholics include materials that were written in Greek - always have. Protestants decided to select a different canon in their marketing discrimination exercise, and selected the only other canon availble to them with any historical providence - which would be to reject the Hellenic writings. Was this after some lengthy debate or learned discernment? My guess and opinion is - no. Luther was trying to strip the Church of the abuses surrounding indulgences, and his tactic was not to challenge the abuse, but to dismiss the doctrine - starting with 1 and 2 Macc. Once you have excluded this, it becomes evident that one can also exclude Helenic texts (Parts of Daniel, parts of Esther, etc.).
The King James Bible contained 73 books until about 1825 - 300 years after the reformation. I don't believe this was from a merely referential point of view, either.
As far as Trent - no one had ever challenged the content of the Canon of Scriptures - so it was not "officially" defined. Once people started carving up Scriptures to support their own innovative doctrine, the Church felt it high time to define what was in and what was not. I believe your understanding of the content of Canon for Roman Catholics is flawed - this is how the Deuterocanonicals survived the Dark Ages, and we have come to enjoy the content of these texts today. As you well know - before printing presses, monks hand-scribed copies of Scriptures for dissemination within the Church. The Deuterocanonicals were scribed, along with everything else. If there had been a wholesale rejection of these works, they would have been lost to antiquity through the dark ages, or until some archelogist digs them up from an older copy or script laying in a cave or under a rock somewhere.
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But it was your decision to "assent" to that "smarter and wiser entity," was it not? And unless you are authoritative and infallible, yours was a non-authoritative and quite fallible decision. So you're position is not any more secure than mine. It was only my decision to continue, not to start. My parents are responsible for the selection to have me Baptized, and raise me in the Christian faith. My answer - I am Roman Catholic by the grace of God. Is it a choice? I suppose so. The ramifications of the option and the nuances of it are what I am after. What a tremendous responsibility and undertaking to not only decide "Christian" as I have, but to also have to contruct define, mainatain and build a persoanl faith practice and structre, and maintain it, and defend it (or redefine it) in the face of social changes and technology changes.
I have chosen not to be saddled with such a burden.
Time to get this train back on the track to purgatory (I hear the snow is excellent right now...oh wait, that might be something else...)
_____________________________
When someone virtuous turns away from virtue to commit iniquity...it is because of the iniquity he committed that he must die. But if he turns from the wickedness he has committed, he does what is right and just, he shall preserve his life" - Ez 18:25-28
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RE: Purgatory and life after death - 1/14/2008 2:50:07 PM
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PeterD
Posts: 425
Joined: 4/27/2007
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Hello Doghouse,
Sir do you know what kind of purgatory the Eastern Orthodox practice compared to the Roman Catholic practices?
If so do the Eastern Orthodox and Roman Catholic share the responsibilites in this place of purging since these people are in Christ's Name?
And is this purging of sin an event in human time meaning before the last day the Final Judgement?
Hello Aphobos
Have you found writtings relating to purgatory and the Eastern Orthodox Church?
What did the Apostle Paul teach about when new doctrines come to our attention, ones that he didn't approve of? Have you found anything that
our brother Paul said about anything that relates to the doctrine of purgatory even in the least?
Peter Daniel
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RE: Purgatory and life after death - 1/14/2008 3:27:22 PM
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Doghouse
Posts: 889
Joined: 8/25/2007
From: The Buckle of the Bible Belt
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quote:
Hello Doghouse, Sir do you know what kind of purgatory the Eastern Orthodox practice compared to the Roman Catholic practices? If so do the Eastern Orthodox and Roman Catholic share the responsibilites in this place of purging since these people are in Christ's Name? And is this purging of sin an event in human time meaning before the last day the Final Judgement? I'll be interested to see how an EO Christian responds to this...
I believe that as a whole, the Eastern Orthodox Church will tend to accept things on a more mystical level, and not try to develop the fine details of doctrine the way the Catholic Church sometimes will. I am aware that the Eastern Orthodox Church instructs that souls must be pristine to enter heaven (not just "whitewashed" - covered over artificially in an attempt to "fool God", or whatever the basis of Luther's "snowy field" analogy means), and therefore accept that souls may be purified post-mortem of the body, in order to gain entry into heaven. I am not sure any of this is referred to as "purgatory" by the EO - that term comes to the Catholics from Judaism - by tradition.
As far as "shared responsibilities" - I am going say that I think that is a legalistic view that does not deal with just what is or is not going on in purgatory. The prayers offered for the souls in purgatiry are that their temporal time there is productive and limited. I hope to have the efficacy of the same types of prayers from fellow Christians when it is my time (and - we all come to that point sooner or later, don't we?) I would gladly accept the prayers of the faithful EO on my behalf in this regard - and I accept that their prayers for me are efficacious. I don't see "responsibilty" for this, but "charity". I am just trying to help, and I hope they might have pity on me and extend some charity my way.
Yes, I believe that purgatory is temporal. I believe this from my understanding of 1 Cor 3, which discusses "testing" and "saving". "Saved" is an eternal state, "testing" is not.
< Message edited by Doghouse -- 1/14/2008 3:36:04 PM >
_____________________________
When someone virtuous turns away from virtue to commit iniquity...it is because of the iniquity he committed that he must die. But if he turns from the wickedness he has committed, he does what is right and just, he shall preserve his life" - Ez 18:25-28
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RE: Purgatory and life after death - 1/14/2008 4:01:46 PM
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Aphobos
Posts: 507
Joined: 8/22/2006
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Doghouse
You only demonstrated to me that people have taken the simple doctrine and created almost a Catechism around it. The doctrine is still what it it, and it is neatly tucked away within the Catechism, and is as simple as I laid it out. Aquinas was one of the greatest minds ever, and to consider that he started with a fairly pristine slate and proceded to chart out our philosophical understanding of "intellect" and "will" was pretty amazing. And certainly his work influenced some of the people who do indeed try to discern dvine revelation to the Church. And indeed, his status as being a canonized aint is the Church's acknowledgement that he had something very profound to offer in the development of our understanding of God's revelation of faith to us.
Again (and again, and again), you're the one who said "Some imagine that the Catholics have an elaborate doctrine of purgatory worked out..." You tried to relegate such an idea to the imagination of others, suggesting that it wasn't so. But it's not an imagination; it's a historical fact. Many Catholics do, in fact, have an elaborate doctrine of Purgatory. Where do they get it? From some of the most popular spokesmen in their Church's history. Aquinas is but one, and he was so popular he was canonized. The popularity of his views on Purgatory are reflected in the writings of other Catholics, like Clement VI. In a letter intended to reunite Armenian Christians to the Roman Church, he writes:
"We ask if you have believed and now believe that there is a Purgatory to which depart the souls of those dying in grace who have not yet made complete satisfaction for their sins. Also, if you have believed and now believe that they will be tortured by fire for a time and that as soon as they are cleansed, even before the day of judgment, they may come to the true and eternal beatitude which consists in the vision of God face to face and in love." (c. 1350)
(I'm assuming you're familiar with Aquinas' doctrine of the 'Beatific Vision'. If not, you probably won't see the connection.)
Do you really think that you're the first Catholic I've spoken with on this issue? I've heard many elaborate explanations of Purgatory from as many Catholics. Your statement simply doesn't hold true, either to history or experience. Again, you personally might not have such an elaborate doctrine, choosing to go no further than the letter of the new 1992 Catechism. But you'd be the exception, not the rule.
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All this demonstrates to me is the inability to surrender one's own control of their own definition of faith, and place that control in something else - namely the authority represented by those that authorized and commissioned the penning of the Westminster or Heidelberg statements of faith. Believers are flexible - faith is not. I see this flipped around for many on this site who refuse to concede that there may be others out there more adept at discernment than one's own self.
I am unwilling to surrender my conscience to a (partly) human organization, whether Roman Catholic or Presbyterian. I alone am responsible to God for my thoughts and actions. He created me in His image. I am a rational being who knows the difference between good and evil, right and wrong. I can never excuse my wrong-doing on the basis that someone else told me to do it. Nor can I blame anyone else for my wrong-thinking, especially when the truth has been so plainly communicated. Each one will have to answer for his/her own thoughts and actions. It behoves us to take responsibility for them now rather than later. "But the church taught... But the church told me to..." will not avail you.
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The challenge then is to throw it back - if a person is so great at discernment, then why not do it for the whole Body, so that other believers may benefit from this God-given gift of discernement of the details of faith practice. That would at least be the broom to start getting everyone back in the same dustpan.
I share what I have discerned from scripture with others. Why else would I be here? In some cases, I help others to understand the scriptures. In other cases, I receive instruction (sometimes correction), grow in my faith and knowledge, and move forward. That is, after all, the raison d'etre for these forums. One need not be elected Pope or a member to the College of Cardinals to share his/her insights with the body of Christ.
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The difference between the Protestant Canon (who authorizes that, by the way...?) and the Roman Catholic Canon is the difference between the Hebrew Canon and the Hellenic Canon. Catholics include materials that were written in Greek - always have. Protestants decided to select a different canon in their marketing discrimination exercise, and selected the only other canon availble to them with any historical providence - which would be to reject the Hellenic writings. Was this after some lengthy debate or learned discernment? My guess and opinion is - no. Luther was trying to strip the Church of the abuses surrounding indulgences, and his tactic was not to challenge the abuse, but to dismiss the doctrine - starting with 1 and 2 Macc. Once you have excluded this, it becomes evident that one can also exclude Helenic texts (Parts of Daniel, parts of Esther, etc.).
The Jews as a people never accepted the Apocrypha as scripture. The same can be said of the Early Church Fathers. I'm waiting to hear your response to my quote from Jerome. I can produce many such quotes from other Fathers if you're not convinced by him. Either way, the statement demonstrates beyond the shadow of a doubt that Jerome himself did not consider the Apocrypha to be canonical.
Luther accepted the same canon that the early church received and handed-down. In fact, this is what constrained him from removing the Epistle of James at one point. Neither he nor any Reformer "changed" the canon of scripture. That's just nonsense. They affirmed the ancient canon, to which Rome soon added the Apocrypha at the Council of Trent.
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The King James Bible contained 73 books until about 1825 - 300 years after the reformation. I don't believe this was from a merely referential point of view, either.
Actually, that is incorrect. Most English Bibles, including the King James Verson, contained 80 (not 73) books. The Apocrypha has always been considered useful from a historical persepective. But that does not make it scripture. Look at any moden study Bible. You'll find notes, maps, quotations, illustrations and references that are not considered to be inspired or infallible. Rather, they help the student in his/her pursuit of understanding scripture. Likewise, the Apocrypha was included in some versions of the Bible. The Church of England, which published the King James Bible, officially denied that the Apocrypha was on the same footing as Holy Scripture. In its Thirty Nine Articles of Faith, it states:
And the other Books (as Hierome saith) the Church doth read for example of life and instruction of manners; but yet doth it not apply them to establish any doctrine; such are these following:
The Third Book of Esdras, The rest of the Book of Esther,
The Fourth Book of Esdras, The Book of Wisdom,
The Book of Tobias, Jesus the Son of Sirach,
The Book of Judith, Baruch the Prophet,
The Song of the Three Children, The Prayer of Manasses,
The Story of Susanna, The First Book of Maccabees,
Of Bel and the Dragon, The Second Book of Maccabees.
(Article VI)
Just before, the Article lists those books which the Church deems canonical. The Apocrypha doesn't make the list. Useful for study? Yes. Helpful to understand the intertestamental period? Yes. Inspired by God? No.
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As far as Trent - no one had ever challenged the content of the Canon of Scriptures - so it was not "officially" defined. Once people started carving up Scriptures to support their own innovative doctrine, the Church felt it high time to define what was in and what was not. I believe your understanding of the content of Canon for Roman Catholics is flawed - this is how the Deuterocanonicals survived the Dark Ages, and we have come to enjoy the content of these texts today. As you well know - before printing presses, monks hand-scribed copies of Scriptures for dissemination within the Church. The Deuterocanonicals were scribed, along with everything else. If there had been a wholesale rejection of these works, they would have been lost to antiquity through the dark ages, or until some archelogist digs them up from an older copy or script laying in a cave or under a rock somewhere.
The writings of Aristotle were similarly preserved (in some cases by the same monks!). Would you consider his Metaphysics to be inspired scripture? That is, after all, what you're saying. If a scribe took the time and pain to hand-copy a document, he must have considered it to be inspired. Right? Nonsense.
You seem unable (unwilling?) to draw a distinction between "useful but not scriptural" and "completely useless". Of course the Apocrypha was considered useful. It was not, however, considered canonical. Not until Trent, anyway, when Rome was pressured to defend her traditions in the face of Holy Scripture.
Can't find biblical support for your tradition? Add something to the canon from which you can defend your tradition. Problem solved. Although, as I've demonstrated above, the Apocrypha doesn't help to defend the doctrine of Purgatory. Not unless the Roman Church will abandon it's teaching that idolatry is a mortal sin. But wait, it can't! For that would mean the Church made a mistake. And everyone knows that the Catholic Church is infallible. So, let's instead abandon both scripture and plain reason in deference to the Roman Magisterium.
There. Now we can sleep at night.
In Christ,
~Aphobos
< Message edited by Aphobos -- 1/14/2008 4:11:20 PM >
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RE: Purgatory and life after death - 1/14/2008 8:39:36 PM
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Doghouse
Posts: 889
Joined: 8/25/2007
From: The Buckle of the Bible Belt
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No concession offered on the Cannon, however the discussion on Canon needs to move here
quote:
Again (and again, and again), you're the one who said "Some imagine that the Catholics have an elaborate doctrine of purgatory worked out..." The doctrine is as terse as the Catechism - the witness to that doctrine as vast as the ocean. How about that? The doctrine is neatly summed up by the words of Paul - but Paul is noted for an economy of words to say some very profound things. People like Aquinas, and St. Ambrose (commentary on the text, and Sermo xx in Ps. cxvii), St. Jerome, (Comm. in Amos, c. iv), St. Augustine (Comm. in Ps. xxxvii), St. Gregory (Dial., IV, xxxix), and Origen (Hom. vi in Exod.) all contributed to our understanding of the depth and profoundness of what has been revealed by Paul's inspired words in 1 Cor. and further amplified and reiterated the validity of the teaching and the efficacy of prayers offered for these souls being prepared.
So a question might be - okay, let's postpone the argument on the Canon of Scripture for a minute. What did the early Church fathers have to say about notion of a preparation of the soul after departing an earthly existence, that would finally prepare a soul for heaven?
How about a Protestant teacher and believer? While carefully wording the description of the event of purgatory ("...a rose by any other name..."), one can find texts such as the following:
Martensen ("Christian Dogmatics," Edinburgh, 1890, p. 457) writes: "As no soul leaves this present existence in a fully complete and prepared state, we must suppose that there is an intermediate state, a realm of progressive development, (?) in which souls are prepared for the final judgment" (Farrar, "Mercy and Judgment," London, 1881, cap. iii).
Origen - "If a man departs this life with lighter faults, he is condemned to fire which burns away the lighter materials, and prepares the soul for the kingdom of God, where nothing defiled may enter. "For if on the foundation of Christ you have built not only gold and silver and precious stones (1 Corinthians 3); but also wood and hay and stubble, what do you expect when the soul shall be separated from the body? Would you enter into heaven with your wood and hay and stubble and thus defile the kingdom of God; or on account of these hindrances would you remain without and receive no reward for your gold and silver and precious stones? Neither is this just. It remains then that you be committed to the fire which will burn the light materials; for our God to those who can comprehend heavenly things is called a cleansing fire. But this fire consumes not the creature, but what the creature has himself built, wood and hay and stubble. It is manifest that the fire destroys the wood of our transgressions and then returns to us the reward of our great works." (P. G., XIII, col. 445, 448). This is a discussion, amplification and reiteration of 1 Cor 3.
These writings are not creating doctrine, but they are clarifying it and answering challenges to it. Paul created the doctrine, and being a good Jew, he understood the teachings of offering prayers and sacrifies to the dead, for their preparation for their final reward.
This doctrine that many who have died are still in a place of purification and that prayers avail to help the dead is part of the very earliest Christian tradition. Tertullian "De corona militis" mentions prayers for the dead as an Apostolic ordinance, and in "De Monogamia" (cap. x, P. L., II, col. 912) he advises a widow "to pray for the soul of her husband, begging repose for him and participation in the first resurrection"; he commands her also "to make oblations for him on the anniversary of his demise," and charges her with infidelity if she neglect to succour his soul. This settled custom of the Church is clear from St. Cyprian, who (P. L. IV, col. 399) forbade the customary prayers for one who had violated the ecclesiastical law. "Our predecessors prudently advised that no brother, departing this life, should nominate any churchman as his executor; and should he do it, that no oblation should be made for him, nor sacrifice offered for his repose." Long before Cyprian, Clement of Alexandria had puzzled over the question of the state or condition of the man who, reconciled to God on his death-bed, had no time for the fulfilment of penance due his transgression. His answer is: "the believer through discipline divests himself of his passions and passes to the mansion which is better than the former one, passes to the greatest torment, taking with him the characteristic of repentance for the faults he may have committed after baptism. He is tortured then still more, not yet attaining what he sees others have acquired. The greatest torments are assigned to the believer, for God's righteousness is good, and His goodness righteous, and though these punishments cease in the course of the expiation and purification of each one, "yet" etc. (P. G. IX, col. 332).
Lest I be accused of "not Scriptural" here, the Scripture is 1 Cor 3. The additional posters backing my view are the Church fathers cited above.
To manage the length of these posts more effectively (this is a hobby for me, not a careeer or vocation...), what do I have to show you for a concession on a state whereby souls who are not quite ready for heaven, but not deserving hell (based on faith - etc.) may be finally prepared? We can call it "Romper Room" for all I care.
Please interpet for me, in a pargraph or so, your understanding of what is being discussed and eluded to in 1 Cor 3, Matt 5 (middle), Luke 12 (end)? What are these passages saying about "Romper Room"?
Kudos to www.NewAdvent.org for their organization of the materials.
_____________________________
When someone virtuous turns away from virtue to commit iniquity...it is because of the iniquity he committed that he must die. But if he turns from the wickedness he has committed, he does what is right and just, he shall preserve his life" - Ez 18:25-28
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RE: Purgatory and life after death - 1/14/2008 8:43:36 PM
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Doghouse
Posts: 889
Joined: 8/25/2007
From: The Buckle of the Bible Belt
Status: offline
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quote:
I'll be interested to see how an EO Christian responds to this... I have it on some authority that the Eastern Church does not accept purgatory, but does accept the post-humous preperation of the soul.
It sounded to me an awful lot like purgatory to me when it was explained, but has no name per se.
I'm interested in seeing the practice.
_____________________________
When someone virtuous turns away from virtue to commit iniquity...it is because of the iniquity he committed that he must die. But if he turns from the wickedness he has committed, he does what is right and just, he shall preserve his life" - Ez 18:25-28
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RE: Purgatory and life after death - 1/15/2008 12:00:37 AM
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Aphobos
Posts: 507
Joined: 8/22/2006
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Doghouse
Please interpet for me, in a pargraph or so, your understanding of what is being discussed and eluded to in 1 Cor 3, Matt 5 (middle), Luke 12 (end)? What are these passages saying about "Romper Room"?
Let's take this one passage at a time. And while I appreciate brevity as much as the next person, a paragraph or two would not do justice to any one of the passages you cite (much less all three of them).
"If any man builds on this foundation using gold, silver, costly stones, wood, hay or straw, his work will be shown for what it is, because the Day will bring it to light. It will be revealed with fire, and the fire will test the quality of each man's work. If what he has built survives, he will receive his reward. If it is burned up, he will suffer loss; he himself will be saved, but only as one escaping through the flames. (1 Cor 3:12-15)
Paul is dealing immediately with the problem of factions in the church at Corinth. Some were claiming to follow Paul, others Apollos (v. 4). Presumably, yet others were following Peter (v. 22). These men were teachers in the church.
Paul is quick to point-out that he is the one who laid the foundation of their faith, and that foundation was Christ Jesus (not himself, not Peter, nor any other man). And it is on this foundation that subsequent teachers must build. In the church, a teacher's work is only good insofar as it points to Christ and causes others to follow Him.
The fire of judgment, in this context, is the testing of such teachers' works in the church. James alludes to this when he writes:
"Not many of you should presume to be teachers, my brothers, because you know that we who teach will be judged more strictly." (3:1)
Because salvation is of grace and not of works, even a poor teacher may be saved. But it will be as a man escaping from a burning building. Everything for which he has labored will perish, but he himself will survive.
The extended application is that a judgment awaits all Christians, at which time their works will likewise be tested. That James says a teacher will be judged more strictly implies a less-strict judgment for the rest. Yet this is to determine one's reward in heaven (Matt 6:19; Lu 18:22; Matt 16:27; Eph 6:8; Rev 22:12). It has nothing to do with a place of torment in which one must be purified of sin. That is a gross eisegesis of the text. Worse, as I've said before, it denigrates the blood of Christ which alone "purifies us from all sin" (1 Jn 1:7, emphasis mine).
In Christ,
~Aphobos
< Message edited by Aphobos -- 1/15/2008 8:55:28 PM >
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RE: Purgatory and life after death - 1/15/2008 3:46:37 PM
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Odeliya
Posts: 2404
Joined: 8/10/2005
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Doghouse
(Hi to the peanut-gallery out there...). All I can post here on these pages is a mere opinion regarding a personal experience with a particular faith. I am not authorized, nor prepared, to do anything more.
(spitting out the shells) Hello there Mr Dog. 
We are here, with mouths shut up by munching nuts( so you are lucky we quiet! :), reading with greatest interest yours and Aph’s debate. We love you both and appreciate the chance to chew on the presented ideas. Not bad!
_____________________________
Proverbs XI:14 Where no counsel is, the people fall: but in the multitude of counselors there is safety.
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RE: Purgatory and life after death - 1/15/2008 5:42:50 PM
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Heavendweller
Posts: 576
Joined: 12/22/2007
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Hi Folks,
This thread has been rather active lately, and I've enjoyed the recent posts. The enthusiasm which has been exhibited from recent posters to either debunk or defend the doctrine of Purgatory has motivated me to bring out of the dusty closet (in a manner of speaking), much of my Roman Catholic literature which I laid to rest.
Each time I would attend Eucharistic Adoration, I would pick up RC literature, because I had such a hunger to learn. The following is from a small tract on the Seven Graces of Mary, which I found at church during my Roman Catholic seeking days.
"The Blessed Virgin Mary grants seven graces to the souls who honor her daily by meditating on her tears and dolors (sorrows). The Hail Mary is prayed seven times, once after each meditation. This devotion was passed on by St. Bridget."
The Seven Sorrows on which to meditate are on the other side of this tract. The graces are listed as well. The seventh grace associated with this devotion is as follows:
"I have obtained this grace from my divine Son, that those who propagate this devotion to my tears and dolors will be taken directly from this earthly life to eternal happiness since all of their sins will be forgiven and my Son and I will be their eternal consolation and joy."
Something to think about, eh? There's more to come...
HD
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RE: Purgatory and life after death - 1/15/2008 6:15:42 PM
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Heavendweller
Posts: 576
Joined: 12/22/2007
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Hello again,
I found another devotion. This one is called, "The Three Hail Marys Devotion." The following are excerpts from this tract:
"One of the greatest means of salvation and one of the surest signs of predestination, is unquestionable, the devotion to the Most Blessed Virgin. All the holy doctors of the Church are unanimous in saying with St. Alphonsus of Liguori: "A devout servant of Mary shall never perish." The chief thing is to persevere faithfully till death in this devotion."
On the last page of this tract, the reader is instructed to practice this devotion morning and evening by reciting the three Hail Mary's "in honor of the three great privileges bestowed upon our Blessed Mother by the most Blessed Trinity." At the end of this devotion, the person is to pray:
"O my Mother, preserve me from mortal sin during this day." (or evening when said at night.)
Now we come to the most beneficial part of this devotion. The following is promised:
"Indulgences of 200 days granted by Leo XIII, 300 days for the members of the Archconfraternity of the Three Hail Marys by Benedict XV, and Apostolic Benediction by St. Pius X."
It seems popes thought there was "time" in Purgatory. BTW, at the end of this tract it is stated:
"The greatest charity we can show our neighbors is to help them save their souls. This can be accomplished by distributing this leaflet."
Still more to come...
HD
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RE: Purgatory and life after death - 1/15/2008 6:52:26 PM
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Heavendweller
Posts: 576
Joined: 12/22/2007
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Greetings,
I found yet another devotion, this one called "The Forty Hours' Devotion." This devotion is practiced when the Blessed Sacrament is exposed publicly for 40 hours, in order for the faithful to venerate. The 40 hours represents the time Christ remained in the sepulchre. The following is promised for this devotion:
"During the Forty Hours' Exposition of the Blessed Sacrament, if a visit is made, during which the faithful recite five times the Our Father, Hail Mary, and Glory be and add one Our Father, Hail Mary, and Glory be for the intentions of the Holy Father, an indulgence of 15 years (will be granted). Those who go to confession and receive Holy Communion, may gain a plenary indulgence on each of the days of the exposition."
BTW, a plenary indulgence removes all of the punishment due to sin, according to my trustworthy Catholic Catechism. Me thinks the teaching of Purgatory is that there is indeed TIME spent there, according to one's performance on earth as regards penances, devotions, prayers, pilgrimages, confession to a priest, taking Holy Communion, attending mass, and whatever other prescribed conditions the Church has dispensed. Actually the RC Catechism says it best:
"A properly disposed member of the Christian faithful can obtain an indulgence under the prescribed conditions through the help of the Church which, as the minister of redemption, dispenses and applies with authority the treasury of the satisfactions of Christ and the saints."
It is clear that the teaching on indulgences is most definitively connected to the teaching on Purgatory, that is, they are inseparable. One must follow the indulgences prescribed by the Church in order to shorten, or perhaps by-pass altogether, the time spent in Purgatory.
Hd
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RE: Purgatory and life after death - 1/15/2008 11:22:48 PM
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Doghouse
Posts: 889
Joined: 8/25/2007
From: The Buckle of the Bible Belt
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I will publicly admit that springing souls from purgatory is not as high on my priorities as it perhaps should be (my wife says the Rosary during her commute everyday, so I am cruising in her wake, I hope).
And I am not entirely sure how I personally feel about the "quanta" sometimes espoused in the literature (however, the Church is my authority, so if I fall short in this regard, I fall short...) 200 days, 5 recitations, etc. I personally struggle with that.
Having said that, I do believe the doctrine of purgatory answers a lot of questions about sin and salvation that are not answered in its absence, and that in fact were described by Paul and Luke and Matt.
I also believe that this difference (accountability and responsibility of the faithful, verses some contrived notion of "pre-destination" that relieves the believer of accountability and responsibility) is what primarily seperates Catholics and EO from everyone else. Jesus justifies us to God, and our participation in faith - initated by Baptism seals us to Him.
But it doesn't end there. We are asked to love our neighbor, meaning that we treat others with mercy and compassion, and participate in charity and peacemaking. otherwise, there is a consequence - a loss. It requires time for temporal punishments to be served, to have the dust settle, and to be fully clean and pristine, with all the dross and chaff of venial sin burned away from our souls - before we enter into heaven.
_____________________________
When someone virtuous turns away from virtue to commit iniquity...it is because of the iniquity he committed that he must die. But if he turns from the wickedness he has committed, he does what is right and just, he shall preserve his life" - Ez 18:25-28
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RE: Purgatory and life after death - 1/15/2008 11:53:34 PM
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Doghouse
Posts: 889
Joined: 8/25/2007
From: The Buckle of the Bible Belt
Status: offline
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quote:
Paul is dealing immediately with the problem of factions in the church at Corinth. i have heard this line before. So, teachers are held to a different standard than everyone else? What then is the "standard" for teacher? Where is that Scripturally defined?
I mean, I may be a teacher, or I may not. If I presume to teach, but am an ignorant fool, then to what account am I held? The higher standard, because I claim to be a teacher, or the lower one, because I am not qualified? What other Scripture is dictating salvic relativity? If we begin to look at these "conditions" and "standards", we set up Pharisees, don't we?
I don't believe the story holds water, because there would have to be a bar to entry for teacher, and we would have to know who passes that bar and who falls short. Then we would know two things - who to seek as teachers, and who is indeed held to that different standard - which would be relevent to those who wanted to be teachers. Teaching, the Priesthood or Holy life, being Pope - are all vocations that could have been filled by anyone of us. The same rules apply, more or less, in regards to salvation, I believe. Certainly the Pope is held to higher standards of public behavior because of what his office represents (as are benny Hill, joyce Metyers, Creflo Dollar...), but these people have chosen a vocation, and the reward of heaven is not relative to those vocations, nor neccessarily the path to heaven (through purgatory - in my point of view). These people are all judged as you and I are - what did they accomplish with what God blessed them with - did their work glorify themselves or God?
Then - in my English NAB - Paul switches his narrative in verse 10 to "each one" and "anyone" in verse 12. We each learned our faith intially from a "teacher" - parents, pastor, Sunday School teacher - and we have been building on that foundation ever since. The foundation is without question (Jesus), so it is only a matter of what each of us have chosen to build on that foundation - each one of us. And the Day will disclose the work of each, and the fire will test its quality. This is speaking to all, who build a Christian life on the foundation of Jesus, and not just the teacher who poured the foundation.
As to relative rewards in heaven, an eternal presence with an infinitely powerful and loving God is going to be difficult to quantify by "Box Seats" verses "General Admission". I mean - being there has got to be infinitely wonderful, and 50% of inifinity is - infinity (basically).
Matt 6:19, Luke 18:22 - The point being that the infinite reward of heaven is prefereable to the finite temporal comfort of earthly wealth. And we cannot serve both missions; we are to fail in gathering earthly treasure in order to succeed at realizing the heavenly one. There is no literal "401k" to put deposits in - heaven is heaven. If there was, what need would we have that has not been met that require expenditure of the 401k? Would there be "have's" and "have nots"? Would there be jealousy? Envy? I don't think it fits.
Mat 16:27, Eph 6:8, Rev 22:12 - These verses could support purgatory, or at least describe the judgment part of the doctrine (particular judgment). Heaven is heaven, but the reward for some is only after preparation and purification - which is proportional to the amount of dross one carries with them (the stain of venial sin upon the soul).
The whole "relative heaven" bit is innovative, I believe. The judgment is related to the purification required for entry - how much "soak time" is required to remove the stain of unconfessed sin? More time for more stain, less time for less stain. This is how relative "reward" can be applied to an infinite presence with an infinite God.
And to even have to speak in these terms blows Luther's "snowy field" right off the map. One has to begin to see that heaven is entered by true righteousness - imitating Christ, not wearing His righteousness around our dirty, grimy selves like a new barthrobe on a hobo. God knows if we are a hobo - He sees right through the bath robe (even if we made it out of Kryptonite...)
In purgatory, the hobo gets a bath - if he didn't take one before getting there (confession and repentence).
< Message edited by Doghouse -- 1/16/2008 12:15:34 AM >
_____________________________
When someone virtuous turns away from virtue to commit iniquity...it is because of the iniquity he committed that he must die. But if he turns from the wickedness he has committed, he does what is right and just, he shall preserve his life" - Ez 18:25-28
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RE: Purgatory and life after death - 1/16/2008 12:45:45 AM
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Aphobos
Posts: 507
Joined: 8/22/2006
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Doghouse
quote:
Paul is dealing immediately with the problem of factions in the church at Corinth. i have heard this line before. So, teachers are held to a different standard than everyone else? What then is the "standard" for teacher? Where is that Scripturally defined?
Out of curiosity, have you read the New Testament?
quote:
I mean, I may be a teacher, or I may not. If I presume to teach, but am an ignorant fool, then to what account am I held? The higher standard, because I claim to be a teacher, or the lower one, because I am not qualified? What other Scripture is dictating salvic relativity? If we begin to look at these "conditions" and "standards", we set up Pharisees, don't we?
*scratching head*
quote:
I don't believe the story holds water, because there would have to be a bar to entry for teacher, and we would have to know who passes that bar and who falls short. Then we would know two things - who to seek as teachers, and who is indeed held to that different standard - which would be relevent to those who wanted to be teachers. Teaching, the Priesthood or Holy life, being Pope - are all vocations that could have been filled by anyone of us. The same rules apply, more or less, in regards to salvation, I believe. Certainly the Pope is held to higher standards of public behavior because of what his office represents (as are benny Hill, joyce Metyers, Creflo Dollar...), but these people have chosen a vocation, and the reward of heaven is not relative to those vocations, nor neccessarily the path to heaven (through purgatory - in my point of view). These people are all judged as you and I are - what did they accomplish with what God blessed them with - did their work glorify themselves or God?
You can honestly read 1 Cor 3 and not see that the passage has to do with (1) divisions in the church, (2) the role that teachers play in either promoting or avoiding them, and (3) the individual's responsibility to follow Christ and not men? Absolutely incredible.
quote:
As to relative rewards in heaven, an eternal presence with an infinitely powerful and loving God is going to be difficult to quantify by "Box Seats" verses "General Admission". I mean - being there has got to be infinitely wonderful, and 50% of inifinity is - infinity (basically).
Seriously, are you on medication? Because if you aren't, I really don't see any point in continuing this discussion. For one, you're not making any rational sense. For another, you refuse to even consider an interpretation of scripture that threatens to pull the support out from under your sacred tradition. You've already handed your brain over to the Magisterium, that much is obvious. No amount of exposition on my part is going to avail, here.
Regretfully,
~Aphobos
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RE: Purgatory and life after death - 1/16/2008 3:19:21 AM
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kelman
Posts: 3897
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Heavendwellerr
Greetings,
I found yet another devotion, this one called "The Forty Hours' Devotion." This devotion is practiced when the Blessed Sacrament is exposed publicly for 40 hours, in order for the faithful to venerate. The 40 hours represents the time Christ remained in the sepulchre. The following is promised for this devotion: How sad to so distort the simple supper Christ instituted with what amounts to idolatry.
_____________________________
“beware lest you lose the substance by grasping at the shadow”
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RE: Purgatory and life after death - 1/16/2008 6:15:35 AM
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Doghouse
Posts: 889
Joined: 8/25/2007
From: The Buckle of the Bible Belt
Status: offline
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quote:
Out of curiosity, have you read the New Testament? I am satisifed to let everybody reading this discussion to come up with their own conclusions on that question...
quote:
You can honestly read 1 Cor 3 and not see that the passage has to do with (1) divisions in the church, (2) the role that teachers play in either promoting or avoiding them, and (3) the individual's responsibility to follow Christ and not men? Uhhh...yes.
I have to say that it is the responsibility of each for his own walk - that is what 1 Cor 3 is about. But we were all taught by someone. There was a point in your life where you were illiterate; that was remedied by a teacher. There was a point in your life where you incapable of faith - that was changed by a teacher. So much for not following "men". Our beliefs are shaped by others until we take over the controls of that ship. Those earliest impressions stick with us the strongest. My guess is that you have felt the way you do about 1 Cor 3 for long time - I know I have felt as I do about it for probably over 30 years or more.
quote:
Absolutely incredible Indeed. About as much as not paying attention to the applicability of Scriptural instruction for the formation of all souls within the Body. I appreciate the passion and zeal you have for your opinion on this passage - I just happen to believe (personally, not just as a Roman Catholic) that you are dead wrong in your interpretation.
I believe that the point of Paul's letter to Corinth is to address the followers - who's ills were reflected in their liturgy. In the celebration of the Eucharist certain members discriminated against others, drank too freely at the agape, and denied Christian social courtesies to the poor among the membership (1 Cor 11:17-22). Charisms such as ecstatic prayer, attributed freely to the impulse of the holy Spirit, were more highly prized than works of charity (1 Cor 13:1-2, 8), and were used at times in a disorderly way (1 Cor 14:1-40). Women appeared at the assembly without the customary head-covering (1 Cor 11:3-16), and perhaps were quarreling over their right to address the assembly (1 Cor 14:34-35). Other problems with which Paul had to deal concerned matters of conscience discussed among the faithful members of the community: the eating of meat that had been sacrificed to idols (1 Cor 8:1-13), the use of sex in marriage (1 Cor 7:1-7), and the attitude to be taken by the unmarried toward marriage in view of the possible proximity of Christ's second coming (1 Cor 7:25-40). There was also a doctrinal matter that called for Paul's attention, for some members of the community, despite their belief in the resurrection of Christ, were denying the possibility of general bodily resurrection.
The community lacked the decisiveness to take appropriate action against one of its members who was living publicly in an incestuous union (1 Cor 5:1-13). Other members engaged in legal conflicts in pagan courts of law (1 Cor 6:1-11); still others may have participated in religious prostitution (1 Cor 6:12-20) or temple sacrifices (1 Cor 10:14-22).
So the context of the instruction is not aimed so much as a warning to the teachers trying insruct and lead this community, but to the ones who would not follow, or were mis-appropriating the instruction - with what they chose to build on that foundation. Paul does not hesitate to exercise his authority as his judgment dictates in each situation, even going so far as to promise a direct confrontation with the defiant, should the abuses he observes and describes remain uncorrected (1 Cor 4:18-21).
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Seriously, are you on medication? Because if you aren't, I really don't see any point in continuing this discussion. Then go in peace, brother. We can simply agree that we disagree - and leave it at that.
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For one, you're not making any rational sense. I am content to let the readers of this discussion be the judge of that.
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For another, you refuse to even consider an interpretation of scripture that threatens to pull the support out from under your sacred tradition. You've already handed your brain over to the Magisterium, that much is obvious. I just don't grasp your isolation of a few verses in a letter devoted to a community containing sone recalcitrant followers, and expressing the need for everyone to "shape up" as somehow being leveled at the teachers, especially Apollos, who is rendered very favorably in Acts 18.
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No amount of exposition on my part is going to avail, here. Likewise, apparently
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Regretfully, Not at all - I enjoyed your posts, and hopefully the observers took something away relevant to their faith. No harm in that.
< Message edited by Doghouse -- 1/16/2008 6:24:26 AM >
_____________________________
When someone virtuous turns away from virtue to commit iniquity...it is because of the iniquity he committed that he must die. But if he turns from the wickedness he has committed, he does what is right and just, he shall preserve his life" - Ez 18:25-28
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RE: Purgatory and life after death - 1/16/2008 1:29:06 PM
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PeterD
Posts: 425
Joined: 4/27/2007
Status: offline
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Hello Doghouse
Sir how does the Roman Catholic Church define what the Apostle Paul
taught us about strongholds?
And is Purgatory a stronghold?
Is Purgatory a thought or a place?
2 Corinthians 10:1-6
Paul Defends His Ministry
1 I, Paul, myself entreat you, by the meekness and gentleness of Christ—I who am humble when face to face with you, but bold toward you when I am away!— 2I beg of you that when I am present I may not have to show boldness with such confidence as I count on showing against some who suspect us of walking according to the flesh. 3For though we walk in the flesh, we are not waging war according to the flesh. 4For the weapons of our warfare are not of the flesh but have divine power to destroy strongholds. 5 We destroy arguments and every lofty opinion raised against the knowledge of God, and take every thought captive to obey Christ, 6 being ready to punish every disobedience, when your obedience is complete.
Peter Daniel
< Message edited by PeterD -- 1/16/2008 3:55:12 PM >
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RE: Purgatory and life after death - 1/16/2008 6:40:58 PM
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Heavendweller
Posts: 576
Joined: 12/22/2007
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Doghouse
I will publicly admit that springing souls from purgatory is not as high on my priorities as it perhaps should be (my wife says the Rosary during her commute everyday, so I am cruising in her wake, I hope).
Speaking about "souls springing from Purgatory," have you ever heard of the Sabbatine Privilege? It is connected to wearing the Brown Scapular, and saying certain prayers, which guarantee a person will immediately go to Heaven on the Saturday following their death. And this devotion was promoted by a pope.
DH, it was seeing a myriad of "devotions" such as the ones that I posted, that made me take a closer look at the RCC's teaching on this subject. Every time I went to mass, public prayer at the parish, or Eucharistic Adoration, I would go to the literature stand. I saw an inordinate amount of tracts, writings, etc. on apparitions of Mary, and praying to Mary and the Saints to gain indulgences to shorten one's time in Purgatory. I saw virtually little to nothing on praying to our Blessed Triune God, our Heavenly Father, Jesus Christ, and the Holy Spirit. All these devotions, prayers, works, pilgrimages, and little mention of love and devotion toward God directly, made me question the RCC further.
quote:
And I am not entirely sure how I personally feel about the "quanta" sometimes espoused in the literature (however, the Church is my authority, so if I fall short in this regard, I fall short...) 200 days, 5 recitations, etc. I personally struggle with that.
Ditto, DH. I more than stuggle with it. I cannot abide it.
quote:
I also believe that this difference (accountability and responsibility of the faithful, verses some contrived notion of "pre-destination" that relieves the believer of accountability and responsibility) is what primarily seperates Catholics and EO from everyone else. Jesus justifies us to God, and our participation in faith - initated by Baptism seals us to Him.
Often Roman Catholics will say that Protestants don't understand their faith. In the same way, I think you are missing the mark as regards our faith. Protestants most definately believe we are accountable to God. We most assuredly believe that we have a responsibility to live as faithful disciples. Not all Protestants are OSAS. But the reality exists that no matter how much we practice living virtuous, Godly lives, we will never be free of our wicked flesh until the day that we die. We will always be stuggling against the forces of evil.
quote:
But it doesn't end there. We are asked to love our neighbor, meaning that we treat others with mercy and compassion, and participate in charity and peacemaking. otherwise, there is a consequence - a loss.
Amen. Do you think that only RC do good works? Take a look around and you will find all kinds of charitable Protestant organizations and ministries devoted to helping others. There is the YWAM medical ship that goes all ove the world helping third world countries with poor health care. Christian Children's Fund that helps starving children throughout the world. Salvation Army missions exist in almost every big city throughout the U.S. There are Protestant Rescue Missions in cities across the nation. Teen Challenge has been the most successful drug rebab. for substance abuses for at least the last 25 years. There are ministries for prisoners which give them free Bibles. The Pregnancy Resource Centers(also Protestant) across the U.S. are pro-life ministeries helping women to make the choice to keep their babies. These women are given clothing, baby food, and baby furniture to help them as they struggle with finances. Samaritan's Purse is yet another Protestant ministry whose mission it is to help the under-privileged. The list goes on and on.
My point? Protestants take our responsibility to follow Christ's commands very seriously.
The fact that we don't believe in Purgatory does not negate the necessity to live holy, upright and Godly lives.
HD
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