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RE: Purgatory and life after death - 1/4/2008 12:19:23 PM
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mcleod
Posts: 1076
Joined: 4/4/2006
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quote:
From my use of these terms, your "justification" statement means "fully sanctified" as sin is incompatible with "fully graced". We are forgiven all at Baptism - what if we sin again? Either you are saying we don't sin again once "justified" by your use of this term (which is anti-Scriptural), or if we do sin, we were never really justified to begin with (which denies the efficacy of a Triune Baptism) So - which is it? Which promise is God breaking in your understanding of this (noting that THIS thread is where that subject is discussed).
1John 1:9 If we confess our sins God is FAITHFUL to FORGIVE our SINS and to CLEANSE from ALL UNRIGHTENOUS. He paid for our way to have communication to the Father in heaven. 1 John 2:1 I write this things to you that you will not sin BUT if ANYBODY does SIN we have one who speaks to the Father in our defense. verse two: He is the pleasing sacrifice for our sins, and not just for ours BUT for the whole WORLD. Praise to God for what he has done,amen.
For those of you, who feel like that you are not good enough and what Yahweh did on the cross. Then I truly feel sorry for you. I pray that you can get over that, if you died and you quite didn't get that sin confess in time. That God is not merciful and you can't quite make into the pearl gates. Isaiah Wrote that our actions are liken unto filthy rags in God eyes. No matter what we do only the shedding of blood can do this for us. This doesn't mean that I don't try to bring Heaven to earth
What did David say in his great down fall. That when I get to the other side boy am I in deep dodo. Or did he say that he was sorry and ask for forgiveness. What did the prophet Nathen say to David? God has forgiven you, but because you tried to do this in secret. You will pay for in front of congregation of Israel. Yes there is some times consequences of our sins we make. But this does not lead to having to suffer all the time. In fact there is no scripture to back that up. Did Cain die for killing his brother. Remember it states an eye for an eye. Yet Cain did not die for killing Abel. God showed mercy to even Cain.
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RE: Purgatory and life after death - 1/4/2008 10:04:05 PM
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PeterD
Posts: 425
Joined: 4/27/2007
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quote:
ORIGINAL: kelman
quote:
ORIGINAL: PeterD
Hello Kelman!
May I ask you what Matthew 10:28 and Romans 6:1-12 have in common?
Matthew 10:28
28And do not fear those who kill the body but cannot kill the soul. Rather fear him who can destroy both soul and body in hell. (ESV)
Who is Jesus talking about in this, "And do not fear those who kill the body but cannot kill the soul." and what does this mean, "but cannot kill the soul."
and is Matthew 10:28 related to Romans 6:1-12...and how might it relate?
Romans 6:1-12
Dead to Sin, Alive in Christ
1What shall we say, then?....
Kelman, when you read this what did you receive
from it relating to, "Purgatory and life after death", but not as
the teachings of the RC.
PeterD
There is nothing in Scripture which relates to purgatory. It is non-existent. It comes from the minds of men who neither understand or sufficiently value the Atonement. "Life after death" for the believer is taught throughout the Bible; but, again this has nothing to do with the RC doctrine of purgatory.
In Mat 10, Christ is telling His disciples they should expect to be reviled and attacked as they preach the Gospel. Still, they should not fear those who can only physically kill them. That's all man is capable of doing, they cannot touch their souls. They should instead fear God who can destroy both their body and soul.
In Rom 6, Paul is teaching that believers have spiritually "died" with Christ. IOW, our sins have been completely washed away by Christ as He experienced the second death. And even though we are still troubled by sin in our bodies, sin should no longer reign over us as it did before we were saved.
As far as I can tell, Mat and Rom are teaching two different subjects. What is it you see they have in common, Peter?
Hello Kelman
Matthew 10:28
28And do not fear those who kill the body but cannot kill the soul. Rather fear him who can destroy both soul and body in hell. (ESV)
In Jesus Name I do not fear those who kill the body and cannot kill the soul. Rather fear him who can destroy both soul and body in hell. I am not worried about my life in the way these people want me to be because Jesus is satisfying in/through/for relating to my soul after I fall asleep in the Lord or die in Grace. I'm looking forward to home/heaven eternal with my Lord Jesus Christ and my family forever! Amen!
cannot kill the soul
This to me means they cannot do anything anymore to you after you die. And these people to me are written about in
1 Thessalonians 4:13-18
The Coming of the Lord
13Brothers, we do not want you to be ignorant about those who fall asleep, or to grieve like the rest of men, who have no hope. 14We believe that Jesus died and rose again and so we believe that God will bring with Jesus those who have fallen asleep in him. 15According to the Lord's own word, we tell you that we who are still alive, who are left till the coming of the Lord, will certainly not precede those who have fallen asleep. 16For the Lord himself will come down from heaven, with a loud command, with the voice of the archangel and with the trumpet call of God, and the dead in Christ will rise first. 17After that, we who are still alive and are left will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And so we will be with the Lord forever. 18Therefore encourage each other with these words. (NIV)
We know why they have no hope it is because they have not entered into God's REST.
Matthew 11:28-30
28"Come to me, all you who are weary and burdened, and I will give you rest. 29Take my yoke upon you and learn from me, for I am gentle and humble in heart, and you will find rest for your souls. 30For my yoke is easy and my burden is light."
I have Rest in my soul even now while I am living, breathing and working so Christ Jesus has taken care of the rest for me....as it is written in Ephesians 2
Ephesians 2:1-10
Made Alive in Christ
1As for you, you were dead in your transgressions and sins, 2in which you used to live when you followed the ways of this world and of the ruler of the kingdom of the air, the spirit who is now at work in those who are disobedient. 3All of us also lived among them at one time, gratifying the cravings of our sinful nature[a] and following its desires and thoughts. Like the rest, we were by nature objects of wrath. 4But because of his great love for us, God, who is rich in mercy, 5made us alive with Christ even when we were dead in transgressions—it is by grace you have been saved. 6And God raised us up with Christ and seated us with him in the heavenly realms in Christ Jesus, 7in order that in the coming ages he might show the incomparable riches of his grace, expressed in his kindness to us in Christ Jesus. 8For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith—and this not from yourselves, it is the gift of God— 9not by works, so that no one can boast. 10For we are God's workmanship, created in Christ Jesus to do good works, which God prepared in advance for us to do. (NIV)
Purgatory is a way someone can boast!
Thank you Kelman for allowing me to speak and Ephesians 2:1-10 to me also deals with what is written in Romans 6:1-12.
PeterD
< Message edited by PeterD -- 1/4/2008 10:15:08 PM >
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RE: Purgatory and life after death - 1/5/2008 2:16:28 AM
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Aphobos
Posts: 507
Joined: 8/22/2006
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Doghouse
Having "justified" the expense, that doesn't mean I have spent the money, nor does it require me to. If God is required to fully sanctify all those He justifies, then Ted Haggard and Paul Barnes need to be explained.
First of all, you need to allow Greek lexica to provide the definition for dikaiosune (justification). Yours is a completely foreign definition, ad hoc, contrived -- one that the authors of scripture certainly did not have in mind. This is easliy demonstrable with a Greek lexicon or a Bible dictionary.
Second, God is not "required" to "fully sanctify" anyone. He is God. He is sovereign. We are not. Whatever His plan, it will be fulfilled exactly as He wants it. I wouldn't be so quick to place demands on God.
Third, I don't have to explain anyone. I don't know if the men you named were/are truly believers in Christ. It's not my place to judge. And if they are, it is certainly possible for them to have back-slidden. The Bible doesn't promise that the saints won't stumble and occasionally fall. What it does promise is that God will not allow them to do so fully and finally.
"Now it is God who makes both us and you stand firm in Christ. He anointed us, set his seal of ownership on us, and put his Spirit in our hearts as a deposit, guaranteeing what is to come." (1 Cor 1:21-22)
One pastor commented that having been saved, we are aboard God's ship, navigating the waters of this dark world. We may slip and fall on-deck, but never overboard. Why? Because God will not allow it. That is not His purpose (cf. Jn 6:39). And even when we do fall, God mysteriously uses it to advance His kingdom (Ro 8:28). He brings good out of it, first for His glory and second for the benefit of those who love Him (cf. Ge 50:19-20).
In Him,
~Aphobos
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RE: Purgatory and life after death - 1/5/2008 3:31:42 AM
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kelman
Posts: 3897
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quote:
ORIGINAL: PeterD
cannot kill the soul
This to me means they cannot do anything anymore to you after you die. And these people to me are written about in
1 Thessalonians 4:13-18 I agree with you and see the connection with the "...men who have no hope" in 1Thes. These are those who feared only man who can kill the body.
quote:
Thank you Kelman for allowing me to speak and Ephesians 2:1-10 to me also deals with what is written in Romans 6:1-12. It is my pleasure to "hear" you, Peter. And yes absolutely the Ephesians 2 and Romans 6 passages do relate to one another. In fact, they compare the relationship between a believer and sin - before and after salvation "As for you, you were dead in your transgressions and sins" and "How shall we, that are dead to sin, live any longer therein?"
_____________________________
“beware lest you lose the substance by grasping at the shadow”
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RE: Purgatory and life after death - 1/5/2008 11:22:33 AM
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Doghouse
Posts: 889
Joined: 8/25/2007
From: The Buckle of the Bible Belt
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quote:
"Now it is God who makes both us and you stand firm in Christ. He anointed us, set his seal of ownership on us, and put his Spirit in our hearts as a deposit, guaranteeing what is to come." (1 Cor 1:21-22) This is 2 Cor 1:21-22, by the way. This verse is speaking of Baptism - the first "installment" (your version uses "deposit"). This installment is available to us as Baptism, and we all accept that the additional "installments" of the full Messianic benfits that God guarantees to Christians.
But just as we profess that those who have no faith (and for some - no Baptism) are not entitled to this benefit, we are also not entitled for denying or rejecting grace and its influence over us, as we participate in the relationship to which we have been called, and indeed were sealed - through Baptism.
What version did you quote? NAB for the same verses is - "But the one who gives us security with you in Christ and who anointed us is God; he has also put his seal upon us and given the Spirit in our hearts as a first installment." Your version omits "first" from deposit, which is interesting. I believe Paul is speaking in "commercial terms" here - seal, ownership, guarantee "security", "first installment", deposit - refer to the process of Christian initiation, specifically Baptism. I don't believe this verse implies what you say it implies - namely eternal security.
Also - "justification" and "justice" have the same root (Latin). I don't believe my use of "justification" is contrived. Justice is a matter of one receiving what they are due - no more, no less. The nature of the soul is regenerated at Baptism and is stained by deliberate serious (okay...mortal) sin. So once someone is on the boat, deliberate murder or some other form of deliberate sin does not wash them over the rail and back into the ocean?
Continuing down this path could get way off the track of purgatory; a suggestion would be to discuss Catholic verse Protestant justification in this thread.
_____________________________
When someone virtuous turns away from virtue to commit iniquity...it is because of the iniquity he committed that he must die. But if he turns from the wickedness he has committed, he does what is right and just, he shall preserve his life" - Ez 18:25-28
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RE: Purgatory and life after death - 1/5/2008 7:36:48 PM
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PeterD
Posts: 425
Joined: 4/27/2007
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Hello neighbor
Luke 12:22-34
Do Not Be Anxious
22And he said to his disciples, "Therefore I tell you, do not be anxious about your life, what you will eat, nor about your body, what you will put on. 23For life is more than food, and the body more than clothing. 24 Consider the ravens: they neither sow nor reap, they have neither storehouse nor barn, and yet God feeds them. Of how much more value are you than the birds! 25And which of you by being anxious can add a single hour to his span of life? 26If then you are not able to do as small a thing as that, why are you anxious about the rest? 27Consider the lilies, how they grow: they neither toil nor spin, yet I tell you, even Solomon in all his glory was not arrayed like one of these. 28But if God so clothes the grass, which is alive in the field today, and tomorrow is thrown into the oven, how much more will he clothe you, O you of little faith! 29And do not seek what you are to eat and what you are to drink, nor be worried. 30For all the nations of the world seek after these things, and your Father knows that you need them. 31Instead, seek his kingdom, and these things will be added to you.
32 "Fear not, little flock, for it is your Father’s good pleasure to give you the kingdom. 33 Sell your possessions, and give to the needy. Provide yourselves with moneybags that do not grow old, with a treasure in the heavens that does not fail, where no thief approaches and no moth destroys. 34 For where your treasure is, there will your heart be also.
What is the Lord Jesus teaching us, to TRUST God while we are in these bodies, for it is your Father’s good pleasure to give you the kingdom. 25And which of you by being anxious can add a single hour to his span of life? 26If then you are not able to do as small a thing as that, why are you anxious about the rest?
After we die we cannot add anything to our lives or purge our selves of sin. Jesus took care of this for us.
I believe this is faith work....
John 6:25-34
25When they found him on the other side of the sea, they said to him, "Rabbi, when did you come here?" 26Jesus answered them, "Truly, truly, I say to you, you are seeking me, not because you saw signs, but because you ate your fill of the loaves. 27 Do not labor for the food that perishes, but for the food that endures to eternal life, which the Son of Man will give to you. For on him God the Father has set his seal." 28Then they said to him, "What must we do, to be doing the works of God?" 29Jesus answered them, "This is the work of God, that you believe in him whom he has sent." 30So they said to him, "Then what sign do you do, that we may see and believe you? What work do you perform? 31 Our fathers ate the manna in the wilderness; as it is written, 'He gave them bread from heaven to eat.'" 32Jesus then said to them, "Truly, truly, I say to you, it was not Moses who gave you the bread from heaven, but my Father gives you the true bread from heaven. 33For the bread of God is he who comes down from heaven and gives life to the world." 34They said to him, "Sir, give us this bread always."
Is there work in Purgatory? If so whose work is it?
Is there Joy of the Lord in Purgatory?
I'm trying to understand why people need purgatory, because what did Jesus say,,,,
John 19:30
30When Jesus had received the sour wine, he said, "It is finished," and he bowed his head and gave up his spirit.
And what did Jesus finish on the cross,,,,
John 3:16
For God So Loved the World
16"For God so loved the world, that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life.
Is purgatory a place to slow the perishing process down?
Has anybody come back to the living from purgatory to tell us what it is?
Is Luke 16 (The Rich Man and Lazarus) talking about purgatory?
Luke 16:22-28
22The poor man died and was carried by the angels to Abraham’s side. The rich man also died and was buried, 23and in Hades, being in torment, he lifted up his eyes and saw Abraham far off and Lazarus at his side. 24And he called out, 'Father Abraham, have mercy on me, and send Lazarus to dip the end of his finger in water and cool my tongue, for I am in anguish in this flame.'
25But Abraham said, 'Child, remember that you in your lifetime received your good things, and Lazarus in like manner bad things; but now he is comforted here, and you are in anguish. 26And besides all this, between us and you a great chasm has been fixed, in order that those who would pass from here to you may not be able, and none may cross from there to us.' 27And he said, 'Then I beg you, father, to send him to my father’s house— 28for I have five brothers—so that he may warn them, lest they also come into this place of torment.'
Also in Luke 23 is Abraham's side Paradise?
And is purgatory this, "between us and you a great chasm has been fixed?"
Luke 23:43
43And he said to him, "Truly, I say to you, today you will be with me in Paradise."
Revelation 2:7
7 He who has an ear, let him hear what the Spirit says to the churches. To the one who conquers I will grant to eat of the tree of life, which is in the paradise of God.'
Jesus is He in the paradise of God, because I know that Jesus standing at the right hand of God!
Acts 7:54-58
The Stoning of Stephen
54When they heard this, they were furious and gnashed their teeth at him. 55But Stephen, full of the Holy Spirit, looked up to heaven and saw the glory of God, and Jesus standing at the right hand of God. 56"Look," he said, "I see heaven open and the Son of Man standing at the right hand of God."
57At this they covered their ears and, yelling at the top of their voices, they all rushed at him, 58dragged him out of the city and began to stone him. Meanwhile, the witnesses laid their clothes at the feet of a young man named Saul.
Paul was a witness to the Stoning of Steven who is a man in Christ and he heard what was said...
2 Corinthians 12:1-5
1I must go on boasting. Though there is nothing to be gained by it, I will go on to visions and revelations of the Lord. 2I know a man in Christ who fourteen years ago was caught up to the third heaven—whether in the body or out of the body I do not know, God knows. 3And I know that this man was caught up into paradise—whether in the body or out of the body I do not know, God knows— 4and he heard things that cannot be told, which man may not utter. 5On behalf of this man I will boast, but on my own behalf I will not boast, except of my weaknesses.
4and he heard things that cannot be told, which man may not utter.
Why did the Apostle Paul say, "which man may not utter?" Is it because of Boasting of such things as Purgatory, as I understand you work your way to heaven, but who's work is it?
How many heavenly realms are there?
PeterD
< Message edited by PeterD -- 1/5/2008 11:54:48 PM >
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RE: Purgatory and life after death - 1/5/2008 10:03:51 PM
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debbieboutwell
Posts: 5
Joined: 1/2/2008
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quote:
quote:
ALL sin has the SAME price...DEATH...
I am assuming this statement comes from the scripture that says "the wages of sin is death".
I believe the sin that is spoken of in that particular verse is referring to the sin of Adam that brought death on all of humanity. (Rom 5:12) Also referred to when Paul said "God was in Christ reconciling the world to Himself" (2 Cor 5) and "as in Adam, all die, so in Christ all will be made alive". This, to me, explains John's statement in John 1:29..."behold the Lamb of God who takes away the sin of the world."
Each incident of doing wrong things will cost us something because of the sowing and reaping principle, but, I don't believe all wrong doing results in death.
just my opinion,
Debbie
[edited by moderator to remove link]
< Message edited by Ps103 -- 1/5/2008 10:46:24 PM >
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RE: Purgatory and life after death - 1/5/2008 11:47:16 PM
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PeterD
Posts: 425
Joined: 4/27/2007
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: kelman
quote:
ORIGINAL: PeterD
cannot kill the soul
This to me means they cannot do anything anymore to you after you die. And these people to me are written about in
1 Thessalonians 4:13-18 I agree with you and see the connection with the "...men who have no hope" in 1Thes. These are those who feared only man who can kill the body.
quote:
Thank you Kelman for allowing me to speak and Ephesians 2:1-10 to me also deals with what is written in Romans 6:1-12. It is my pleasure to "hear" you, Peter. And yes absolutely the Ephesians 2 and Romans 6 passages do relate to one another. In fact, they compare the relationship between a believer and sin - before and after salvation "As for you, you were dead in your transgressions and sins" and "How shall we, that are dead to sin, live any longer therein?"
Amen to life!
Peter Daniel
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RE: Purgatory and life after death - 1/5/2008 11:59:16 PM
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facedown
Posts: 906
Joined: 4/12/2005
From: the urban desert
Status: offline
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kelman
quote:
John mentions this "baptism of fire" in Mat 3:11; and, Christ would later teach about it in Mark 10:38-39. So while the word "fire" is used figuratively, what it symbolizes is real, very real - the wrath of God.
are you suggesting then, when jesus speaks of "baptism of fire", he is speaking of the "wrath of god"?
_____________________________
-| those who say, don't know. those who know, don't say |-
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RE: Purgatory and life after death - 1/6/2008 2:28:05 PM
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Doghouse
Posts: 889
Joined: 8/25/2007
From: The Buckle of the Bible Belt
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: facedown
kelman
quote:
John mentions this "baptism of fire" in Mat 3:11; and, Christ would later teach about it in Mark 10:38-39. So while the word "fire" is used figuratively, what it symbolizes is real, very real - the wrath of God.
are you suggesting then, when jesus speaks of "baptism of fire", he is speaking of the "wrath of god"?
I felt a need to respond to this; thanks for the filter, FD.
I agree that this is being used figuratively. Anyone in the time of the writing of this verse would have understood the figurative use here as "purification", not "wrath" - as fire at the time was definitely a tool, not a weapon, and was used to purifiy, warm cook and light - none of which are "bad" or "negative" things.
_____________________________
When someone virtuous turns away from virtue to commit iniquity...it is because of the iniquity he committed that he must die. But if he turns from the wickedness he has committed, he does what is right and just, he shall preserve his life" - Ez 18:25-28
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RE: Purgatory and life after death - 1/6/2008 3:16:32 PM
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Doghouse
Posts: 889
Joined: 8/25/2007
From: The Buckle of the Bible Belt
Status: offline
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quote:
Hello neighbor Howdy-doo....
quote:
After we die we cannot add anything to our lives or purge our selves of sin. Jesus took care of this for us. I believe this is faith work.... After we die - indeed the die is cast in terms of acceptence or denial of faith. The state of our soul is determined (by our faith - actually, by our relationship in and with God). What purges the soul in purgatory is grace - this comes from God and is not merited, but given. The fact is that we cannot gallop into heaven with the stain of sin on our souls. One such stain is the temporal realities of those sin choices.
quote:
Is there work in Purgatory? If so whose work is it? Is there Joy of the Lord in Purgatory? I'm trying to understand why people need purgatory, because what did Jesus say,,,,
John 19:30
30When Jesus had received the sour wine, he said, "It is finished," and he bowed his head and gave up his spirit.
And what did Jesus finish on the cross,,,, A strongly worded opinion here...be forewarned. Since coming to this forum, I have heard what I consider to be the "nonsense" of this interpretation of Jesus saying "it is finished". So - wind the VCR back to verse 28 in John 19, and describe to me what kind of "finished" is being discussed in that verse, and how verse 30 is the same, or different - reference Psalm 22:16 and Psalm 69:22 while you check on this. My opinion (and belief) is that Jesus is speaking to the fulfillment of Scriptural prophecy (OT, of course) related to Him and His earthly ministry. The fulfillment of the Scriptures has been completed - and by this complete fulfillment, we may know that Jesus is the Christ of the OT. This is what Jesus is saying by "it is finished" - His earthly ministry is done. His salvic work on the Cross has only begun - and is not "finished" until He rises on the third day upon defeating death. I consider the "it is finished" argument used above to be as weak as it is shallow; sounds like the work of a .... well, I've said plenty. Had Jesus proudly marched out of the tomb on the third day, and said "it is finished" to a waiting throng, the argument would play a lot better. However - that is far from the truth of what actually happened. We're talking about a man hanging on the cross after being brutally tortured and beaten by humanity, humbled and cast off - by you, I, and everyone else. Our sin, our treachery, our faults and shortcomings, our lack of faith and our poor choices put Jesus up on that cross. He hung around and finished what He had to do on earth before moving on to finish what He had to do not of this earth - defeat death and rise from it. Then - it was finished. Furthermore, Jesus spent 40 days among His Apostles until the ascension; if "it was finished" - his Apostles would have never seen Him again, would they?
Doesn't this make sense?
As to "work" in purgatory, the only "work" that can go on is the work of grace acting upon the soul, which has not perished due to faith. Grace is from God. Souls need purgatory to complete the work of grace upon them (sin is incompatible with grace in the soul, as sin is the rejection of faith, grace - and to some extent - the promises of God). Maybe we need to define what "sin" and "faith" actually are? This has nothing to do with limiting the atoning power of Jesus or the sovereignty of God (He's the one revealing this to us), but has to do with the realities of "love your neighbor" and the temporal (which some I notice are quick to ignore or dismiss, because this might actually require something of us to live our profession, our faith and our relationship - sort of like a bachlor fearing commitment).
quote:
Also in Luke 23 is Abraham's side Paradise? And is purgatory this, "between us and you a great chasm has been fixed?" Purgatory is not hell. It is not punitive, but purifying or refining. In theory - hell is not punitive, but the reality of an eternity seperated from God. Punitive implies hope - for thise in hell there is no hope; for those going to heaven, there is no need for hope, as the certainty of heaven has been realized.
quote:
Is it because of Boasting of such things as Purgatory, as I understand you work your way to heaven, but who's work is it?
How many heavenly realms are there? No one works their way to heaven - nobody teaches this.
What people do teach is - one group says that your faith is reflected in the reality of your actions, therefore one must reflect on what is being done to make sure it lines up with what is believed and what is professed.
The other group says - action is work, and work is not required. To which I simply reference James - we are what we do and what we accomplish (good or bad), and never what we verbally say.
_____________________________
When someone virtuous turns away from virtue to commit iniquity...it is because of the iniquity he committed that he must die. But if he turns from the wickedness he has committed, he does what is right and just, he shall preserve his life" - Ez 18:25-28
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RE: Purgatory and life after death - 1/7/2008 3:23:41 AM
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kelman
Posts: 3897
Status: offline
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quote:
"Now it is God who makes both us and you stand firm in Christ. He anointed us, set his seal of ownership on us, and put his Spirit in our hearts as a deposit, guaranteeing what is to come." (1 Cor 1:21-22)
This is 2 Cor 1:21-22, by the way. This verse is speaking of Baptism - the first "installment" (your version uses "deposit"). This installment is available to us as Baptism, and we all accept that the additional "installments" of the full Messianic benfits that God guarantees to Christians.
As usual, this is an incorrect understanding of what it being taught. Water baptism does not and cannot "seal" us to Christ only the Baptism of the Holy Spirit can do this. When God regenerates us, He puts His Spirit in our hearts - not when someone pours, sprinkles or dunks.
The Holy Spirit is given as the "earnest" of our eternal inheritance. And the Testator of that will by whom we are given this inheritance is Faithful and True.
One who receives an inheritance does nothing to gain it...not even his time in "purgatory" where he pays for his own sins - a doctrine which so blatantly defies Scripture and God Himself.
Man really aught to stop trying to take the glory from Christ; but, it seems they never will.
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“beware lest you lose the substance by grasping at the shadow”
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RE: Purgatory and life after death - 1/7/2008 3:26:04 AM
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kelman
Posts: 3897
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: facedown
kelman
quote:
John mentions this "baptism of fire" in Mat 3:11; and, Christ would later teach about it in Mark 10:38-39. So while the word "fire" is used figuratively, what it symbolizes is real, very real - the wrath of God.
are you suggesting then, when jesus speaks of "baptism of fire", he is speaking of the "wrath of god"?
Yes. And, it is quite absurd for it to be suggested that Christ is speaking here about being "purified" - how silly.
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“beware lest you lose the substance by grasping at the shadow”
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RE: Purgatory and life after death - 1/7/2008 7:47:17 AM
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facedown
Posts: 906
Joined: 4/12/2005
From: the urban desert
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: kelman
quote:
ORIGINAL: facedown
kelman
quote:
John mentions this "baptism of fire" in Mat 3:11; and, Christ would later teach about it in Mark 10:38-39. So while the word "fire" is used figuratively, what it symbolizes is real, very real - the wrath of God.
are you suggesting then, when jesus speaks of "baptism of fire", he is speaking of the "wrath of god"?
Yes. And, it is quite absurd for it to be suggested that Christ is speaking here about being "purified" - how silly.
so, when john the baptizer spoke of jesus who would "baptize with the holy spirit and fire", he's talking about sending folks to hell?
and you say this baptism is mentioned later, in mark 10, where jesus says that this is the baptism he was baptized with?
so, now your suggesting that jesus and all his followers (whom jesus said will drink of his cup, and be baptized with the baptism with which he is baptized) will be somehow traveling through hell?
interesting, because the other disciples looked to james and john with some indignation. who wants to go to hell and hang out?
thats how this community (and ours today) understands some of this word: baptize. it's a sacramental act that purifies, or represents purification, etc. so, it's quite absurd to suggest it's absurd to suggest it.
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-| those who say, don't know. those who know, don't say |-
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RE: Purgatory and life after death - 1/7/2008 12:29:12 PM
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PeterD
Posts: 425
Joined: 4/27/2007
Status: offline
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Hello Doghouse,
"Finished" is
27And just as it is appointed for man to die once, and after that comes judgment, 28 so Christ, having been offered once to bear the sins of many, will appear a second time, not to deal with sin but to save those who are eagerly waiting for him.
so Christ, having been offered once to bear the sins of many, will appear a second time, not to deal with sin but to save those who are eagerly waiting for him.
"not to deal with sin", means 25Nor was it to offer himself repeatedly, as the high priest enters the holy places every year with blood not his own, 26 for then he would have had to suffer repeatedly since the foundation of the world.
(((Purgatory is to purge and what is being purged if not...for then he would have had to suffer repeatedly since the foundation of the world.)))
Hebrews 9:6-28
6These preparations having thus been made, the priests go regularly into the first section, performing their ritual duties, 7but into the second only the high priest goes, and he but once a year, and not without taking blood, which he offers for himself and for the unintentional sins of the people. 8By this the Holy Spirit indicates that the way into the holy places is not yet opened as long as the first section is still standing 9(which is symbolic for the present age). According to this arrangement, gifts and sacrifices are offered that cannot perfect the conscience of the worshiper, 10but deal only with food and drink and various washings, regulations for the body imposed until the time of reformation.
Redemption Through the Blood of Christ
11But when Christ appeared as a high priest of the good things that have come, then through the greater and more perfect tent not made with hands, that is, not of this creation) 12he entered once for all into the holy places, not by means of the blood of goats and calves but by means of his own blood, thus securing an eternal redemption. 13For if the blood of goats and bulls, and the sprinkling of defiled persons with the ashes of a heifer, sanctify for the purification of the flesh, 14how much more will the blood of Christ, who through the eternal Spirit offered himself without blemish to God, purify our conscience from dead works to serve the living God.
14how much more will the blood of Christ, who through the eternal Spirit offered himself without blemish to God, purify our conscience from dead works to serve the living God.
15Therefore he is the mediator of a new covenant, so that those who are called may receive the promised eternal inheritance, since a death has occurred that redeems them from the transgressions committed under the first covenant. 16For where a will is involved, the death of the one who made it must be established. 17For a will takes effect only at death, since it is not in force as long as the one who made it is alive. 18Therefore not even the first covenant was inaugurated without blood. 19For when every commandment of the law had been declared by Moses to all the people, he took the blood of calves and goats, with water and scarlet wool and hyssop, and sprinkled both the book itself and all the people, 20saying, "This is the blood of the covenant that God commanded for you." 21And in the same way he sprinkled with the blood both the tent and all the vessels used in worship. 22Indeed, under the law almost everything is purified with blood, and without the shedding of blood there is no forgiveness of sins.
23Thus it was necessary for the copies of the heavenly things to be purified with these rites, but the heavenly things themselves with better sacrifices than these. 24For Christ has entered, not into holy places made with hands, which are copies of the true things, but into heaven itself, now to appear in the presence of God on our behalf. 25Nor was it to offer himself repeatedly, as the high priest enters the holy places every year with blood not his own, 26for then he would have had to suffer repeatedly since the foundation of the world. But as it is, he has appeared once for all at the end of the ages to put away sin by the sacrifice of himself. 27And just as it is appointed for man to die once, and after that comes judgment, 28so Christ, having been offered once to bear the sins of many, will appear a second time, not to deal with sin but to save those who are eagerly waiting for him. (ESV)
This is a clear teaching about what sin offerings are and about what the Final sin offering is and did.
You have also given a good confession and I agree to the testimony through the fulfillment of Scriptural prophecy about our Lord Jesus Christ.
John 19:28
28After this, Jesus, knowing that all was now finished, (said to fulfill the Scripture), "I thirst."
"knowing that all was now finished" what does this mean but the sour wine then "It is finished"
Thank You Doghouse for clearling this up, I should have been more careful. There is so much more that I'm excited about saying from scripture but I hope this was the answer you were hoping to hear from me as well....but not anything else I hope!
John 19:30
30When Jesus had received the sour wine, he said, "It is finished," and he bowed his head and gave up his spirit.
and describe to me what kind of "finished" is being discussed in that verse, and how verse 30 is the same, or different - reference Psalm 22:16 and Psalm 69:22 while you check on this.
Psalm 22:16
16For dogs encompass me;
a company of evildoers encircles me;
they have pierced my hands and feet-
Psalm 69:21
21They gave me poison for food,
and for my thirst they gave me sour wine to drink.
(fulfillment of Scriptural prophecy about our Lord Jesus Christ.)
as you have also said scripture in the proper order of prophecy...
John 19:28
28After this, Jesus, knowing that all was now finished, (said to fulfill the Scripture), "I thirst."
John 19:30
30When Jesus had received the sour wine, he said, "It is finished," and he bowed his head and gave up his spirit.
Psalm 69:22
22 Let their own table before them become a snare;
and when they are at peace, let it become a trap.
1 Peter 4:8
8Above all, keep loving one another earnestly, since love covers a multitude of sins.
Peter Daniel
< Message edited by PeterD -- 1/7/2008 6:36:23 PM >
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RE: Purgatory and life after death - 1/8/2008 2:07:57 AM
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kelman
Posts: 3897
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: facedown
so, when john the baptizer spoke of jesus who would "baptize with the holy spirit and fire", he's talking about sending folks to hell? Nope, never said that.
quote:
and you say this baptism is mentioned later, in mark 10, where jesus says that this is the baptism he was baptized with? Christ isn't talking of His water baptism by John, He doesn't mention it. What He does say is the "baptism of the Holy Spirit and of fire". John specifically states it is not the same baptism.
John baptized with the baptism of repentence. What did Christ have to repent of? If you think this somehow eliminated the sins Christ carried on behalf of all who would believe, then the Cross would be redundant.
I could explain what Christ's water baptism was all about; but, no doubt, that would be off-topic. Besides, I doubt you'd be interested. One thing for sure - it didn't "forgive" any of the sins He carried. For anyone who might be interested LINK HERE to the Baptism thread. It's around the middle of a slightly long post.
quote:
so, now your suggesting that jesus and all his followers (whom jesus said will drink of his cup, and be baptized with the baptism with which he is baptized) will be somehow traveling through hell? If they (somehow) don’t, they will wind up in hell - literally.
quote:
interesting, because the other disciples looked to james and john with some indignation. who wants to go to hell and hang out? Huh? Better read the account again. The other apostles were indignant that James and John should seek to glorify themselves - they had asked to be seated on either side of Christ in heaven.
quote:
thats how this community (and ours today) understands some of this word: baptize. it's a sacramental act that purifies, or represents purification, etc. so, it's quite absurd to suggest it's absurd to suggest it.
Rather, what remains absurd is the complete and total lack of understanding of the substitutionary death of Christ and the fact that water cannot wash away one single sin.
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“beware lest you lose the substance by grasping at the shadow”
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RE: Purgatory and life after death - 1/9/2008 7:37:18 AM
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facedown
Posts: 906
Joined: 4/12/2005
From: the urban desert
Status: offline
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kelman
you said that when jesus speaks of "baptism of fire" he is speaking of the wrath of god.
what then, are you relating this "wrath of god" to?
i never mentioned water baptism, so ......not sure why or how you got onto that.
if they don't "what"? i don't see how that answered the question.
"huh"? i know right, that's how i feel when i read your posts here lately, because they make no sense to me.
i'm not sure of any community who denies a "substitutionary" view of atonement. though if you add "penal" in front of it (which i assume you do), then yes, it is not understood by many, many people.
and again, who mentioned water?
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-| those who say, don't know. those who know, don't say |-
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RE: Purgatory and life after death - 1/9/2008 4:32:13 PM
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kelman
Posts: 3897
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: facedown
"huh"? i know right, that's how i feel when i read your posts here lately, because they make no sense to me. Apparently Scripture makes no sense to you either. The "huh?" was in response to the following statement of yours, found in quotation marks, whereby you indicated the passage is somehow related to hell, it isn't:
"interesting, because the other disciples looked to james and john with some indignation. who wants to go to hell and hang out?"
As for whose posts don't make much sense, you're way too far at the top of the list to have much competition.
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“beware lest you lose the substance by grasping at the shadow”
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RE: Purgatory and life after death - 1/12/2008 7:18:58 PM
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PeterD
Posts: 425
Joined: 4/27/2007
Status: offline
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What kind of purgatory do the Eastern Orthodox practice?
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RE: Purgatory and life after death - 1/12/2008 8:04:46 PM
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Aphobos
Posts: 507
Joined: 8/22/2006
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I came across an interesting argument against the Catholic doctrine of Purgatory this week. Their Catechism states that the doctrine is based on tradition, with reference to certain texts (Part 1, Section 2, Chapter 3, Article 12, sub-section III). One such text is 2 Maccabees 12:46.
While neither the Early Church Fathers nor Protestants accept the Apocrypha as inspired scripture, let's postpone that argument for a moment. What exactly is found in 2 Maccabees 12?
Certain soldiers had been slain in battle on account of their idolatry (v. 40). Judas prayed, making suppliation for the dead that their sins might be "fully blotted out" (v. 42a) He then took up a collection from his men and sent it to Jerusalem "to provide an expiatory sacrifice" (v. 43). The chapter ends by saying, "Thus he made atonement for the dead that they might be freed from this sin" (v. 46).
According to Roman Catholic dogma, there are two categories of sin: mortal and venial. The venial sins are lesser, representing offenses that must be punished, but do not undo the grace of God in the sinner's life. Mortal sins, on the other hand, are gravely serious. These can literally "kill" the grace of God.
A person who dies with mortal sin is damned. Those with only venial (forgivable) sin, on the other hand, go to Purgatory for final cleansing. One's stay in Purgatory is proportional to the amount of unconfessed venial sin in his/her life (mitigated, of course, by indulgences, prayers of the saints, signing of the cross, and so forth).
Regarding the passage in 2 Maccabees, which type of sin is idolatry? Is it mortal or venial? Well, according to the New Advent Catholic Encyclopedia, idolatry is not only a mortal sin -- it is "the greatest of mortal sins." In fact, "even the simulation of idolatry, in order to escape death during persecution, is a mortal sin, because of the pernicious falsehood it involves and the scandal it causes."
Now, if the soldiers in 2 Maccabees 12 were slain for their idolatry, they would not be going to Purgatory for any cleansing. No, their destination would be the Lake of Fire and eternal torment. Thus, even if 2 Maccabees were canonical, it's teaching would confute Roman Catholic dogma concerning sin and Purgatory.
Through this short study, two facts emerge. First, 2 Maccabees doesn't belong in the canon of scripture, for it contradicts the teaching of other scripture (Heb 9:27, for openers). Second, it cannot reasonably be used to support the Roman Catholic teaching of Purgatory. Thus, the only recourse that the Roman Magisterium has in defense of this dogma is human tradition.
Why not just believe the scriptures?
In Him,
~Aphobos
< Message edited by Aphobos -- 1/12/2008 8:17:28 PM >
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RE: Purgatory and life after death - 1/13/2008 7:37:20 PM
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Doghouse
Posts: 889
Joined: 8/25/2007
From: The Buckle of the Bible Belt
Status: offline
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quote:
While neither the Early Church Fathers nor Protestants accept the Apocrypha as inspired scripture, let's postpone that argument for a moment If you were really interested in "postponing the argument", you would not have placed this sentence in your post. You are actually pickin | | |
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