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RE: Salvation and Catholicism - 5/31/2008 8:18:58 AM
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ferdgoodfellow
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Hi Odeliya,
I am talking about sola fide, the idea that we are justified by faith and nothing else. If we are rigorous and consistent in how we run the scriptural data through the sola scriptura filter, we would not make a dogma out of SF.
Here is why. SS, in its purest, basic form, says this: Don't be dogmatizin' something if it isn't explicitly stated in scripture or necessarily deducible from what is clearly stated in scripture. SF doesn't pass that test, and nor does SS, but that is a different topic.
Now, there are lots of verses that would support a SF conclusion, if they were the only ones that addressed the subject. Let's take Rom 3:28 as an example. But there are lot's of verses, the plain reading of which declare a role for works in our justification. So we have two sets of verses that are "clear". Strictly applying the basic rule of SS, we must uphold both, as the Catholic Church does, not elevate one over the other.
But there will be the objection that the verses apparently giving a role to works in our justification (e.g. James 2:24), properly understood, don't really mean that. There is a way to interpret these verses such that they are consistent with SF. And I agree. The Reformers have come up plausible interpretations. However, they are merely plausible. None of them are necessarily implied from what is clearly stated in scripture.
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RE: Salvation and Catholicism - 5/31/2008 8:32:59 AM
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ferdgoodfellow
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So, according to the rule of SS, we ought not make a dogma out of SF.
But there will be the rejoinder that what is inconclusive in scripture, just relying on the bible itself, can be made clear if we leverage the scriptural data with "rules of interpretation", historical and archaelogical scholarship, etc. Relying on these non-biblical sources we can make the SF conclusion definite and unassailable. Not really. For at the heart of SS is the principle that only scripture is infallible. If you are going to dogmatize sumptin shouldn't it be based solely on scripture? If I form a non-negotiable belief based on scripture and some extra-biblical authority, and I wouldn't form that belief but for the addition of the extra-biblical authority, aren't I violating SS by relying on a fallible authority?
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RE: Salvation and Catholicism - 5/31/2008 8:37:09 AM
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ferdgoodfellow
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You can still object that we have no choice but to rely on extra-biblical sources to formulate our dogmas, and my interpretive tradition does it better than yours. Maybe. But that is then an admission that SS doesn't work and that you are operating under some other principle.
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RE: Salvation and Catholicism - 5/31/2008 10:30:27 PM
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preachermyron
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Salvation is by only by full trust, reliance and confidence that Jesus purchased our salvation by His suffering, death and resurrection period, nothing else. Adding works says that Jesus didn't purchase our salvation completely. Besides how can anyone know how much works are enough? Works come as a proof of salvation but never gain salvation. Myron. preachermyron@yahoo.com
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RE: Salvation and Catholicism - 6/1/2008 7:39:37 AM
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Doghouse
Posts: 889
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From: The Buckle of the Bible Belt
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quote:
Adding works says that Jesus didn't purchase our salvation completely. Welcome to the forums.
Have you read any of the previous few posts at all, or are you just making some grand assumptions about what Catholics believe regarding salvation?
Maybe you go back and read this post and this post and this post and this post.
I would be interested in your thoughts on what Catholics actually teach and believe, rather than the urban mythology and rumor which appear in your statement.
< Message edited by Doghouse -- 6/1/2008 7:49:46 AM >
_____________________________
When someone virtuous turns away from virtue to commit iniquity...it is because of the iniquity he committed that he must die. But if he turns from the wickedness he has committed, he does what is right and just, he shall preserve his life" - Ez 18:25-28
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RE: Salvation and Catholicism - 6/1/2008 8:42:48 AM
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preachermyron
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Doghouse - My wife was Roman Catholic and myself an Eastern Orthodox. Neither one of us understood that you can't receive freedom from sin by confessing to a priest or popes who are just as imperfect and sinful as anyone else. A precious few Catholics actually do read the Bible and make a geniune effort to live according to the Bible and Jesus. But sadly the reality is that most Catholics and others know little or nothing about the Bible or who Jesus really is. They waste their whole lives arguing against it using the sad excuse "I'm Catholic, etc. and nobody is going to change me". Their religious and personal beliefs and opinions means more to them than Jesus and the Bible. The Bible to these poor lost souls is just another among many opinions and beliefs instead of God's Word and the only true way. Another really sad thing is that those who debate me have either/or never read and understood the Bible and have given their opinions and interpretations which contradict Jesus and the Bible.
quote:
ORIGINAL: Doghouse
quote:
Adding works says that Jesus didn't purchase our salvation completely. Welcome to the forums.
Have you read any of the previous few posts at all, or are you just making some grand assumptions about what Catholics believe regarding salvation?
Maybe you go back and read this post and this post and this post and this post.
I would be interested in your thoughts on what Catholics actually teach and believe, rather than the urban mythology and rumor which appear in your statement.
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RE: Salvation and Catholicism - 6/1/2008 10:25:28 AM
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Odeliya
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quote:
O: That what I meant by salvation is by faith alone by grace alone view being held by both parties.
Dog: Catholics don't have a problem with what is meant by "alone" in your sentence. Catholics have a problem with just what you mean by "faith" in that sentence.
For Catholics. if you are talking about what saves in terms of "faith", having "faith" means having faith in God, having faith in Jesus, having faith in the power and guidance of the Holy Spirit, having faith in the affects and results of conversion of sanctifying and actual grace and our yielding our will to them, having faith in the efficacy of the Sacraments instituted by Jesus, having faith in the role of the Church for instruction and development, having faith in the role of charity in the Christian lifestyle, having faith in the communion of the faithful (the Body of Christ), having faith in ... perhaps my point is made.
: If faith encompasses all of these things, then faith alone does indeed save you.
Amen, of course. As I just talked about it on the other thread, marriage license alone and birth or adotion certif. alone is a proof of your marraige /parenthood ;which doesnt mean one can start beating up his wife and children, faith alone is not a license to sin.
quote:
As long as we understand that faith is to be done, faith is to be lived, faith is to be actioned and acted out - then we are all on the same page, more or less.
Sure, but that's "denomination independent"-I've seen catholics that "live their faith" and produce fruit of HS, and seen protestants that sacrifice it all for the Lord's service. Yet there are "sundaychurchgoers" that are not true christians in both denominations.
< Message edited by Odeliya -- 6/1/2008 10:31:42 AM >
_____________________________
Proverbs XI:14 Where no counsel is, the people fall: but in the multitude of counselors there is safety.
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RE: Salvation and Catholicism - 6/1/2008 12:37:39 PM
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Doghouse
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quote:
Doghouse - My wife was Roman Catholic and myself an Eastern Orthodox. Begging your pardon, indulgence and latitude - but your post does not sound very much like one who was either Eastern Orthodox, or married to someone who was Roman Catholic.
If you were either or both of these, my assumption would be that you would be aware that although the New Testament represents those written accounts by some of the Apostles that we do have for the purposes of faith instruction and development, the Deposit of Faith (in its entirety) in the Apostles by Jesus resides in the institution of Church and in the magisterium. And it is by the Church and its authority that we know that these texts are indeed the authorized and authentic ones for this purpose. This is the Church's responsibility, as this is the mission with which it was charged at Pentecost and the reason that it exists on this earth.
The magisterium is the context against which Scripture must be interpreted. If it is abandoned, then many erroneous interpretations are possibly rendered from Scriptures. You see the result of the abandonment of the magisterium and the authority of the Church as an institution established by Christ for the purposes of conveying and defending faith, and through which God reveals Himself to His people, by all the erroneous dogma and doctrine that does exist - and there are many threads here in which to actively discuss these topics.
As stem cell research is not specifically covered within the text of Scriptures, we faithful rely on the discernment of the Church on this subject and its communication and instruction to us regarding how we must look at this technology. As it has turned out, I believe that the direction of continued research that has resulted in more viable and productive uses of amniotic stem cells (which don't require the killing of an innocent human) are a direct result of the Church's influence (all the Church - Catholic, Protestant - whatever) in this technology, which has resulted in maintaining justice as technology advances.
This discernment for us is the mission and role of the Church, as most of us are ill equipped and prepared for this task (I have a job to work, bills to pay, kids to raise, etc.) The Church supports individuals who have dedicated their lives (foregoing family and children) to the task of supporting the Church with her responsibilities, and are suitably prepared and have demonstrated ample abilities for this task (PhD's from Notre Dame, etc.). Not the same as the 20 year old college student having a go at Scriptures and the task of self-discernment through which any possible interpretation (and some impossible ones) are sometimes erroneously rendered. While there are some running jokes about Catholics not reading the Bible, I don't find this to be the case in my neck of the woods. We read it all the time down here - to point out the obvious errors we see in some of the interpretations (or in some cases - misuse and abuse) by some people who sometimes have less than sterling agendas regarding the discernment rendered, among other reasons. Prosperity Gospel and WOF come to mind - search these and you will find discussions here about those topics.
Besides - reading the Bible does not faith make. Read up all you want, but unless what is read is put into practice (faith, hope and charity), then the reading of Scripture is of little use or consequence, to be honest.
It always baffles me to see people who have left the ancient communions without a very clear understanding of what they were actually practicing while participating in them. Sometimes, I hear that these people have found a new birth or have come alive in their new faith. When further questioned, it simply turns out that they are putting more time, energy and passion into the new community.
It sort of makes me wonder how much they would have gotten out their relationship with the Roman Catholic or Eastern Orthodox Church had they devoted the same passion and resources during that time of their relationship with these faith communities.
< Message edited by Doghouse -- 6/1/2008 2:29:10 PM >
_____________________________
When someone virtuous turns away from virtue to commit iniquity...it is because of the iniquity he committed that he must die. But if he turns from the wickedness he has committed, he does what is right and just, he shall preserve his life" - Ez 18:25-28
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RE: Salvation and Catholicism - 6/1/2008 12:50:10 PM
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Doghouse
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quote:
Another really sad thing is that those who debate me have either/or never read and understood the Bible and have given their opinions and interpretations which contradict Jesus and the Bible. I only know what my Roman Catholic instruction and practice has taught me. I am quite comfortable to discuss any aspect of Christian faith and practice from this perspective.
If you claim "error", you will need to cite your authority. Don't expect me just to take your word that you are right and that I and the 2,000 year old institution that has instructed me are wrong.
Its going take a lot more than "because I said so..." from my perspective...
< Message edited by Doghouse -- 6/1/2008 12:58:43 PM >
_____________________________
When someone virtuous turns away from virtue to commit iniquity...it is because of the iniquity he committed that he must die. But if he turns from the wickedness he has committed, he does what is right and just, he shall preserve his life" - Ez 18:25-28
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RE: Salvation and Catholicism - 6/1/2008 1:06:32 PM
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Doghouse
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quote:
Their religious and personal beliefs and opinions means more to them than Jesus and the Bible. I chuckled when I read this.
Our personal beliefs and opinions ARE all we can possess about who Jesus is and what the Bible says. This is true of any Christian of any denomination on the planet
That's why what we practice is called "faith" and not "fact" - it is about our personal BELIEFS, as this is what faith is...
What I take from your sentence is presumed self-authority. While what I believe is my personal belief, what you believe is not your personal belief, but is in fact, exactly what Jesus instructed.
That's a hurdle you're are going to have to get over before meaningfully debating with anyone. Your belief is your belief, just like my belief is mine. We may then cite authority as to why we accept what we believe, and debate the validity of the authority.
But to say you're right and I am wrong "just because" is not going to make for very exciting dialog. Somebody taught you, influenced you, instructed you that I am wrong. I'd be interested in the authority behind that - what caused you to believe them, and not the instruction of the ancient communion (the EO Church, in my opinion, is a very excellent and valid one filled with Spirit-filled faithful...if I weren't Catholic, I'd be Eastern Orthodox...) with which you were previously a member.
< Message edited by Doghouse -- 6/1/2008 2:31:00 PM >
_____________________________
When someone virtuous turns away from virtue to commit iniquity...it is because of the iniquity he committed that he must die. But if he turns from the wickedness he has committed, he does what is right and just, he shall preserve his life" - Ez 18:25-28
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RE: Salvation and Catholicism - 6/1/2008 1:32:51 PM
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Doghouse
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quote:
Sure, but that's "denomination independent"-I've seen catholics that "live their faith" and produce fruit of HS, and seen protestants that sacrifice it all for the Lord's service. Yet there are "sundaychurchgoers" that are not true christians in both denominations. Exactly my point all along, Ms. O.
Why are preachers so quick to lump the faithful into "Catholic" and "Protestant", and preach against the supposed "evils" or "error" in the Catholic Chruch, when we know good and well that it is perfectly capable of producing valid, fruitful Christian faith?
I'd much rather see the focus be on the unenergetic, dispassionate and unaffected individuals in all our Churches. Why do I get judged for being "Catholic", before anyone ascertains my passion, zeal, enthusiasm, and love of Jesus? Why is it immediately presumed by some that I can't possess these, because I am Catholic and these cannot possibly exist within her?
Before anyone jumps on the Catholic Church for doing the same thing - what the Church teaches is that those who choose to be outside full communion of the Church are doing so by their own free choice (the Church is not rejecting them, they are rejecting the Church...), and by doing so, they are missing out on the fullness and completeness of faith that is available within a communion and faith practice centered on her instruction and practices.
Noting full well that there are indeed Catholics sitting in Mass every week, who participate less fully in this faith than the Methodist down the street, who is getting ready to go on a mission trip to feed and shelter poor orphans in Mexico...and has never set foot inside a Catholic Church for anything other than possibly a wedding or a funeral.
None of us are in a position to judge the relative place of each and every faithful in the grand scheme of things. All we can do is keep our own socks pulled up and try to convince others to reach down and give those elastic tops a pull on their own pair...
The proper view of Christianity for Catholics, I believe, is to not see denominations, but to see people more or less fully practicing the faith that Jesus has deposited with the Apostles. I wish it were a view more widely shared across Christendom.
_____________________________
When someone virtuous turns away from virtue to commit iniquity...it is because of the iniquity he committed that he must die. But if he turns from the wickedness he has committed, he does what is right and just, he shall preserve his life" - Ez 18:25-28
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RE: Salvation and Catholicism - 6/1/2008 2:12:06 PM
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SovereignIsHe
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Doghouse
quote:
The bible doesn't say a denial of Catholic sacraments is a denial of Christ, There's a thread running on whether or not a Christian should be baptized.
That's all the evidence I need to tell me that some out who claim "Christian" out there deny sacraments - regardless of the label you want to apply to them.
What label should be applied?
John
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RE: Salvation and Catholicism - 6/1/2008 2:13:28 PM
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SovereignIsHe
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Doghouse
quote:
Another really sad thing is that those who debate me have either/or never read and understood the Bible and have given their opinions and interpretations which contradict Jesus and the Bible. I only know what my Roman Catholic instruction and practice has taught me. I am quite comfortable to discuss any aspect of Christian faith and practice from this perspective.
If you claim "error", you will need to cite your authority. Don't expect me just to take your word that you are right and that I and the 2,000 year old institution that has instructed me are wrong.
Its going take a lot more than "because I said so..." from my perspective...
That is all anyone can offer, even yourself and your church...
John
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RE: Salvation and Catholicism - 6/1/2008 4:05:58 PM
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Heavendweller
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Doghouse
I'd much rather see the focus be on the unenergetic, dispassionate and unaffected individuals in all our Churches. Why do I get judged for being "Catholic", before anyone ascertains my passion, zeal, enthusiasm, and love of Jesus? Why is it immediately presumed by some that I can't possess these, because I am Catholic and these cannot possibly exist within her?
Dear Doghouse,
Far be it from me to judge the condition of your soul, or anyone else's for that matter. Yes, there is a tendency among many Evangelical Christians to judge the salvation of another. I was once one of those in this camp. But maturity and exposure to MANY different faith traditions within Christianity changed my perspective.
If I have seemed to judge you personally in any of my comments DH, I apologize. You may be a far better Christian than myself. Truth is, I am at an impasse as far as "church" is concerned. Not that I don't see "church" as very necessary for spiritual health, life and growth. But rather it is desiring to align myself with that faith tradition in which I can worship, know, love and serve God in a manner which would be the most pleasing to Him. Aren't our lives supposed to be glorifying God first and foremost? I would venture to say that Protestants, Catholics, and Eastern Orthodox could agree upon this.
God bless you.
Heavendweller
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RE: Salvation and Catholicism - 6/1/2008 6:56:25 PM
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Doghouse
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From: The Buckle of the Bible Belt
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quote:
What label should be applied? Baptism is a pretty universal Sacrament within Christendom. Even the Catholic Church recognizes any Triune Baptism in any Church as being a valid Sacramental Baptism. The Church does not "re-Baptize" anybody, as doing so would deny the validity of the Sacrament.
The point being, that in spite of Baptism being quite widely held and universally practiced, there are still many who refuse it or refuse to recognize its validity.
I perceived you were labeling a "Catholic" Baptism as a distinct Sacrament. I was suggesting that it is not, and that in spite of its universal acceptance, there are still stubborn "hold-outs" in regard to its acceptance - to me meaning that at least some outside the Catholic Church are being erroneously taught (or deceived) from the pulpit, or from the practice of self-discernment.
_____________________________
When someone virtuous turns away from virtue to commit iniquity...it is because of the iniquity he committed that he must die. But if he turns from the wickedness he has committed, he does what is right and just, he shall preserve his life" - Ez 18:25-28
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RE: Salvation and Catholicism - 6/1/2008 6:58:05 PM
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Doghouse
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quote:
That is all anyone can offer, even yourself and your church... There's a couple of Churches out there that can offer historical providence, and with it, the authority of having been there all along, and not being some Renaissance invention.
_____________________________
When someone virtuous turns away from virtue to commit iniquity...it is because of the iniquity he committed that he must die. But if he turns from the wickedness he has committed, he does what is right and just, he shall preserve his life" - Ez 18:25-28
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RE: Salvation and Catholicism - 6/1/2008 7:33:12 PM
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preachermyron
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PS 103 - How about signs on doors of a Catholic home with a picture of a gun stating "Don't bother trying to change me, I'm Catholic". How about when you ask a Bibical question they are completely baffled and confused and have absolutely no clue about what you're talking about. Then they say"That's you're opinion or belief". How about when you ask either "Have you ever read the Bible?" and / or "When is the last time you read the Bible?" and they can't give you an answer. Also when you inquire "Do you own a Bible?" and/or "Would like Bible?" and they say no. You see, I don't have to do anything but ask simple questions in order to determine where spiritual life stands. Their answers give them away. Myron. preachermyron@yahoo.com
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RE: Salvation and Catholicism - 6/1/2008 7:58:32 PM
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Doghouse
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quote:
If I have seemed to judge you personally in any of my comments DH, I apologize. You didn't and there is no need to apologize.
quote:
You may be a far better Christian than myself. That's doubtful...however, neither of us are in a position to determine this about the other...
quote:
Aren't our lives supposed to be glorifying God first and foremost? I would venture to say that Protestants, Catholics, and Eastern Orthodox could agree upon this. Indeed. A big Amen shout-out here...
_____________________________
When someone virtuous turns away from virtue to commit iniquity...it is because of the iniquity he committed that he must die. But if he turns from the wickedness he has committed, he does what is right and just, he shall preserve his life" - Ez 18:25-28
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RE: Salvation and Catholicism - 6/1/2008 8:11:55 PM
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preachermyron
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Doghouse - You are truly blessed if you have ministers who know and teach the truth. Being a Christian is not religious tradition and ritual like my wife and were taught by our priests. We could of died and went to Hell because of their spiritual ignorance and because of the fact that they refused to see their error and repent and seek the truth. That is why we left our respective old places and sought somebody who knew and taught the truth instead of religion. Myron. preachermyron@yahoo.com
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RE: Salvation and Catholicism - 6/1/2008 8:29:11 PM
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preachermyron
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SovereignIsHe - All we have is ourselves to give to Him. But the question is "Are we willing to surrender to Him and allow the Holy Spriit to set us free and change us. Or do we keep refusing to see that we need the Holy Spirit to change us and set us free. We can also choose to stay in bondage remain in our lies and sinful condition? Myron. preachernmyron@yahoo.com
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RE: Salvation and Catholicism - 6/1/2008 9:58:50 PM
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Ps103
Posts: 11698
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quote:
ORIGINAL: preachermyron
PS 103 - How about signs on doors of a Catholic home with a picture of a gun stating "Don't bother trying to change me, I'm Catholic". How about when you ask a Bibical question they are completely baffled and confused and have absolutely no clue about what you're talking about. Then they say"That's you're opinion or belief". How about when you ask either "Have you ever read the Bible?" and / or "When is the last time you read the Bible?" and they can't give you an answer. Also when you inquire "Do you own a Bible?" and/or "Would like Bible?" and they say no. You see, I don't have to do anything but ask simple questions in order to determine where spiritual life stands. Their answers give them away. Myron. preachermyron@yahoo.com
Well, quite frankly, I have never seen a such a sign on any house, so you are speaking of something completely outside my realm of experience.
But the rest of what you have written could very well have been written about just about anyone in this country (and I do not even know if you are in America), so it does not have anything to do with the topic of this thread, which is "How does the Catholic teaching on Salvation compare with Evangelical Christianity?"
If you can relate it to ths topic, I would still like an explanation of this statement:
quote:
Another really sad thing is that those who debate me have either/or never read and understood the Bible and have given their opinions and interpretations which contradict Jesus and the Bible.
Were you speaking of someone on this board? If so, who is it? I cannot find any such debate in your two days on the board. Why is *your* interpretation correct and everyone else's wrong? Since you have not given us an indication of what your interpretation imight be, we cannot assess what you know or believe.
_____________________________
Fasten your seatbelts...it's going to be a bumpy night.
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RE: Salvation and Catholicism - 6/2/2008 9:13:53 AM
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ferdgoodfellow
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Welcome Myron,
You sed: Salvation is by only by full trust, reliance and confidence that Jesus purchased our salvation by His suffering, death and resurrection period, nothing else.
This is a very fine statement of sola fide. But for the sake of this discussion and precision let's substitute "justification" for "salvation."
According to Luther and Calvin, the faith which justifies is not, as the Catholic Church teaches, a firm belief in all of God's revealed truths and promises, but, as you say, the confidence and certain conviction that God for the sake of Jesus' sacrifice will no longer impute to us our sins, but will regard us as if we are really just and holy, even though we remain dirty, rotten sinners.
And this "fiduciary faith" alone, by itself, togedder wid absolutely nuttin', is what justifies.
Here we have "faith" and "works" radically opposed. Now, the antinomians have always been with us, even back in the apostolic era, but the Reformers were the first to articulate a rationale for SF, and that rationale, which depends on a novel way of looking at the nature of justification (i.e. treating it only as an imputation to us of Christ's righteousness) can only be regarded as an invention of the 1500's.
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RE: Salvation and Catholicism - 6/2/2008 9:35:46 AM
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ferdgoodfellow
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And innovation is the hallmark of heresy, which ought to give SF believers some pause.
I am not saying that that Catholic way of understanding justification completely settles all the issues. There are aspects of the whole subject that remain mysterious. Free will and predistination come to mind. But the Catholic view does account for all scriptural data much better.
This is evident in the all the continuing controversies within Evangelicalism on the subject of justification. see the Lordship Salvation controversy as an example. The force of the Catholic argument continually forces you guys to reexamine your central premise of SF.
And there is ample cause to do so just looking at scriptural data. Take Rom 3:28 as an example. Is it really true that we are justified by faith apart everything else? Apart from love?! Apart from hope? Apart from baptism? Apart from the Eucharist? Apart from the Body of Christ?
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RE: Salvation and Catholicism - 6/2/2008 1:12:08 PM
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JesKlu
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Doghouse
quote:
The bible doesn't say a denial of Catholic sacraments is a denial of Christ, There's a thread running on whether or not a Christian should be baptized.
That's all the evidence I need to tell me that some out who claim "Christian" out there deny sacraments - regardless of the label you want to apply to them.
Hello Doghouse!
Not the Lutherans. It is pretty unfair to "lump" Lutherans in with the Pentecostals/Baptists, because we are totally different.
I have one other question if I may ask. Which group of Protestants do you encouonter most of the time?
Your sister in Christ Jesus,
Jessica
< Message edited by JesKlu -- 6/2/2008 1:33:16 PM >
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And calling to him a child, he put him in the midst of them and said, "Truly, I say to you, unless you turn and become like children, you will never enter the kingdom of heaven.
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