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RE: Mental Health Debate - One Stop Thread - 11/24/2006 2:26:28 AM
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womaninchrist
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There's not a one size fits all answer for that. Some depression IS spiritual. Sometimes it's related to sin, or a need for forgiveness (or to forgive someone) or to any of several other possible spiritual issues. Sometimes depression is caused by situations, like by a miserable job, being in the wrong relationship, etc. Then again, still other times, depression really is an illness that requires medical treatment.
To approach depression - or any other mental illness - with a formula that assumes that because illness A is present then sins B & C and/or demons D & E must be present is to make a very false and potentially dangerous assumption. Even if you're right that the illness in the particular case does have spiritual roots, such formulas are often flat out wrong about the sins and/or demons involved.
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RE: Mental Health Debate - One Stop Thread - 11/24/2006 10:03:03 AM
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FoxInSox
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rapturefish,
i like reading your honest questions. i'm a ginormous fan of honest questions :)
i'm a counseling student and a christian. i haven't struggled with depression, but i have experienced other types of mental health problems.
before i really get into it, i'd like to clarify that some terms like depression and anxiety have the everyday meaning, and the Mental Health Feild meaning. to be diagnosed with depression or anxiety, one must have quite significant experiences with it. for example, depression must occur for at least 2 weeks, with heavy experiences of sadness almost all day almost everyday, with disturbances in sleep, eating patterns, and work/education distrurbances.
i view a person's health pretty holistically. emotional problems can cause physical symptoms (headaches, ulcers, nausea, etc) and physical problems can cause emotional symptoms (thyroid problems can often look like depression or mania, depression often occurs with diabetes, arthritis, and pain disorders). then, if we throw in other aspects of life - spirituality, relationships, fitness, nutrition, it gets even more complex. and, of course, disturnances in one area WILL affect the others.
mental health problems vary widely in their cause. some are purely organic, like schizophrenia and autism. in these disorders, something nuerological has gone awry. we can see this in brain scans and in the effect of the medications (for schizophrenia, austism doesn't have that kind of treatment). others result primarily from experiences, like PTSD. others are a myriadic combination of things, lie anxiety and depression. nuerology plays a part (that's why meds like prozac can help), experience plays a part, patterns of thinking play a part, etc.
treating mental health can have several different patterns. sometimes a round of counseling or a round of meds can "cure" an individual. sometimes, a similar treatment can bring the client to health, but they experience intermittant relapses. sometimes, counseling and meds get a person to remission, where the person is symptom free while on meds. sometimes, counseling and meds bring partial remission, and sometimes, nothing at all.
i think its very important for people to use every resource they can when experiencing mental illness. ideally, these resources will include a mental health professional who has ethical responsibilities to ensure the client isn't physically ill or experiencing the problems of another aspect of life. in addition, getting one's nutrition and fitness healthy helps. so does ensuring good, quality, and enough sleep. also, finding a support system and participating in one's religion (enter, the Church) helps. making sure that one's vocation or educational placement is a good fit is critical as well; after all, we spend most of our waking hours there.
i hope that help's rapture. i appreciate you honesty.
michelle
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RE: Mental Health Debate - One Stop Thread - 11/24/2006 10:50:37 AM
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stateofgrace
Posts: 2005
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quote:
ORIGINAL: rapturefish
I'd like to ask how people here view depression - is it a spiritual condition? Or is it merely an ailment the way the flu is an ailment? Because one of the thigns I've struggled with is that there are people who are godly and yet are prone to depression thorughout their lives and without cure. Medication and psychiatry seem like substitutes for the power of God, as if to say that God is not strong enough to give one victory over depression. Yet even the likes of Spurgeon and C.S.Lewis had depression.
I guess I've concluded so far that depression has to be seen as part of the fallenness of this world, and like some ailments it's not somethign you necessarily get cured of. Some depressions are overcome through surrender, forgiveness, rest and having the support of other believers and getting a routine going. Others seem to be there for life, and it's easier to resolve my paradigm dilemma if I see depression as something like a chronic illness than a spiritual condition when it comes to people who are in depression and never get cured.
What do you guys think? It's been a real struggle to come this far in my thinking.
My take...
Understand this is a layman's (laywoman's) theory based on what medical science has been learning from research into the brain.
Situational Depression is different from Chronic Depression (I'm not aware of the professional community using those terms, but hopefully it will become clear why I'm using them).
Situational Depression can happen to just about anyone. It is triggered by environment...and our body, mind and soul's reaction to those triggers. It is fairly short-lived, and is often able to be resolved without medical treatment.
If one is prone to Depression many times over a lifetime, that's Chronic Depression, which can be triggered by environment/situations, but there's usually something physical underlying that involves the person having unbalanced body chemistry.
There are so many hormones and chemicals in the body that influence each other - which is why some illnesses and disorders can mimic or cause symptoms of depression and other mental health disorders. A person with Chronic Depression will continue to be triggered over a lifetime because there's SOMETHING there, or not there, that allows this trigger to result in depression. Even if the problem is completely in the brain itself - remember the brain is a physical part of the body - a disruption or imbalance of the chemicals in the brain can cause many different types of health problems (like Parkinson's).
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RE: Mental Health Debate - One Stop Thread - 11/25/2006 3:02:12 PM
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FoxInSox
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SoG,
right on, as usual :)
I'll speak to your comment about using Chronic v. Sitaution Depression in the mental health feild from a student's perspective.
Depression and Bipolar share ALOT of the same classifiers. Some pertinent to SoG's post are below:
Chronic -- the symptoms for the current episode of Bipolar or Depression have been met without a break for 2 or more years
Recurrent -- more than one episode of Depression or Bipolar has occurred in an individual's life
There are also specifiers for severity, stages of remission, and whether or not psychosis is present.
Also, we do recognize Situation Depression. Sometimes, that response is normal. Sometimes its out of proportion to the situation or causing significant impairment. In that case, we call it Adujustment Disorder with Depressed Mood. (FYI. Adj. Disorder can occur with a variety of moods/behaviors like anxiety, conduct disurbance, substance abuse, etc.) Also, diagnosis fromt the DSM includes a section for General Medical Condition and Psychosocial and Environtal Problems. This allows the clinician to look at situational causes like terminal illness or loss of job.
Counselors are usually willing to work with clients with depression or other emotional problems regardless of the cause. That's pretty much what we DO. Unfortunately, insurance companies are less willing to PAY for those services. This means that sometimes, people with depression from Adj. Disorder or as a completely normal result to something really AWFUL don't have easy access to treatment.
Which, IMO, is really dumb on the part of the insurance company. Treat the problem NOW, while its small. This is usually cheaper for the company because its usually a shorter round of treatment. IF the client must wait, it can develop into something much worse and more expensive because the treatment will be longer. Not to mention, it results in MUCH LESS suffering for the individual, which is the best benefit of all :).
michelle
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RE: Mental Health Debate - One Stop Thread - 11/26/2006 1:00:39 PM
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womaninchrist
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I'm a bit confused as to why you lump depression and bipolar together. People with depression get depression and "normal" moods. People with bipolar will get "normal" moods along with episodes of depression, mania, hypomania and perhaps even mixed states - any of which (with the exception of hypomania) may involve elements of psychosis.
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RE: Mental Health Debate - One Stop Thread - 11/26/2006 3:28:15 PM
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FoxInSox
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WomaninChrist,
I'm not so much lumpng them together as following the pattern set forth in the DSM.
The DSM lumps depression and bipolar together as mood disorders. The mood disorders include depression and its varieties, bipolar and its varieties, dysthymia, and hhypomania. They share many of the same classifiers - severity, recurrent v. nonrecurrent, etc. Interestingly, both manic and depressive states can occur with psychosis. Also, part of the diagnosis of most bipolar disorders include a depressive period.
This next paragraph doesn't really answer your question but is related. Anxiety disorders are not included in the Mood Disorders of the DSM; they get their own section. I think this is because the Mood Disorders have SO MANY varieties and classifiers that they are complex enough to diagnose without the addtion of anxiety disorders into their space. Also, anxiety disorders follow a different patter in labeling. If the severity changes, we don't change the classifier, we change the name -- ie, social anxiety might grow into generalized anxiety, which might grow into OCD.
I hope that clarified. The DSM can be arbitrary at times. And, I find the patterns in it to be highly intrigueing, even though I think they are pretty useless in the actual treatment of the disorder.
Take care,
michelle
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RE: Mental Health Debate - One Stop Thread - 11/26/2006 10:57:31 PM
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MyCatSmokey2006
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I have a problem with mentally ill people being treated as second-class citizens in today's society. Several issues I find fault with in the current mental health system include:
1. Forced administration of medications--I believe that every adult person who has NOT been found to be legally incompetent by a judge- has the right to refuse medical treatment, including medications. Just because someone is mentally ill doesn't mean they don't know what's good for them. Even those suffering from psychotic disorders have this right.
2. Leaving medical facilities against medical advice-- I believe that every adult person has the right to leave a medical or psychiatric facility against medical advice if they feel that the care they are receiving is not to their liking. I also feel that no one should be forced to seek psychiatric treatment against their will unless they have been violent toward others. There's been too many abuses of power against mentally ill people who are deemed incapable of determining what's good for them. Only some drug abusers, sex offenders and others who commit genuine violent acts against others should be committed against their will. Missing a scheduled outpatient appointment is NOT a violent act and should NOT be a criteria for commitment.
3. Excessive use of restraints and/or seclusion--I believe that a psychiatric facility should follow their own policy regarding the use of restraints or seclusion of patients. I once knew someone who was in seclusion for over two days, which was a clear violation of the short-term use policy the hospital had. A patient has the right to socialize with other patients and they should not be restrained or secluded longer than necessary to stop violent behavior.
4. Group homes--I believe that mentally ill patients should NOT be forced to move into a group home or other supervised residential facility if the person can get their own place to live or move in with family or friends.
This is all I have for now. Any comments?
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RE: Mental Health Debate - One Stop Thread - 11/27/2006 12:34:20 AM
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FoxInSox
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MyCatSmokey,
These are interesting points.
In the States, de jure law states that all the things you beleive to be lawful. ALL patients have the right to refuse treatment and leave AMA, whether they are getting physical or mental treatment. The same is true for group homes. A person in his majority cannot be forced to stay without his consent. In the case of a minor, the parent/guardian makes the decision. In regards to seclusion and restraints, I know (or rather, feel quite sure) that treatment facilities break their own rules. This is unethical and illegal, and worthy of a winning lawsuit and possibly criminal prosecution.
Now...how all this pans out in a de facto manner, I am not sure. Like I said, I'm still a student. My profession is currently teacher, though, and I could tell you lots of places where the de jure law and the de facto reality don't match. I wouldn't be surprised if that wasn't true in other professions as well.
I'm wondering if you are from a country with different rules than the States? Also, I'm wondering if you've seen many cases where the de jure law was not followed? (I suspect the latter is true regardless of the former).
Take care,
michelle
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RE: Mental Health Debate - One Stop Thread - 11/27/2006 8:13:09 AM
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agapetos
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quote:
ORIGINAL: MyCatSmokey2006
I have a problem with mentally ill people being treated as second-class citizens in today's society. I agree that many people with mental health issues are treated as second-class citizens and that this is wrong.
quote:
Several issues I find fault with in the current mental health system include:
1. Forced administration of medications--I believe that every adult person who has NOT been found to be legally incompetent by a judge- has the right to refuse medical treatment, including medications. Just because someone is mentally ill doesn't mean they don't know what's good for them. Even those suffering from psychotic disorders have this right. We should all have the right to decide what medication we are given and not given. However we aren't always able to decide this and it has to be decided for us. You can't wait to ask someone if they want to get their heart started again if they have cardiac arrest can you? People need to be physically and mentally able to decide on their medications. This may mean giving them treatment without their consent until they are able to make their own decisions.
quote:
2. Leaving medical facilities against medical advice-- I believe that every adult person has the right to leave a medical or psychiatric facility against medical advice if they feel that the care they are receiving is not to their liking. I also feel that no one should be forced to seek psychiatric treatment against their will unless they have been violent toward others. There's been too many abuses of power against mentally ill people who are deemed incapable of determining what's good for them. Only some drug abusers, sex offenders and others who commit genuine violent acts against others should be committed against their will. Missing a scheduled outpatient appointment is NOT a violent act and should NOT be a criteria for commitment. Anyone (here in the UK) can leave a medical facility against medical advice unless they present a danger to themselves or others. Yes, there have been abuses of power, but there's also been much criticism of those who should be caring for others not doing enough.
quote:
3. Excessive use of restraints and/or seclusion--I believe that a psychiatric facility should follow their own policy regarding the use of restraints or seclusion of patients. I once knew someone who was in seclusion for over two days, which was a clear violation of the short-term use policy the hospital had. A patient has the right to socialize with other patients and they should not be restrained or secluded longer than necessary to stop violent behavior. I don't know enough about this. But you talk of someone who was in seclusion for over two days and say this was a violation. I'm not sure that it can be classed as a violation without knowing the full details ~ ie did it take two days for the staff to calm the patient so they weren't going to be violent? Hospitals should have policies and they should stick with them ~ but there needs to be some flexibility too for the exceptional case that doesn't respond as per usual.
quote:
4. Group homes--I believe that mentally ill patients should NOT be forced to move into a group home or other supervised residential facility if the person can get their own place to live or move in with family or friends. Can't comment on this as I have no knowledge of group homes. But anyone taking in a person who has a mental health problem needs to be fully aware of how to help that person and be able to provide for them at all times. Perhaps this is why some have been refused?
I'm wondering where you're from too...
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RE: Mental Health Debate - One Stop Thread - 11/27/2006 1:04:51 PM
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MyCatSmokey2006
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I am from the Midwest in the United States and I can tell you that these things have happened because I've either personally witnessed them, having been a patient on a psych unit many times, or having them told to me by someone else. In the case of the appointment being the basis for commitment, the person I knew didn't comply with her outpatient commitment treatment plan, so that may be why they decided to hospitalize her long term. However, I feel that there are times when a person is committed for long term hospitalization for trivial, nonviolent reasons and this practice should be stopped.
As for the group homes, I've heard of so many abuses of residents in them that it makes me cringe. Improper use of medication, refusal of group home staff to let residents leave the group home for the first 30 days for anything except dr visits and their reluctance to discharge people from them even when the resident is ready, are abusive practices and should be stopped.
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RE: Mental Health Debate - One Stop Thread - 11/28/2006 6:20:15 PM
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agapetos
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quote:
However, I feel that there are times when a person is committed for long term hospitalization for trivial, nonviolent reasons and this practice should be stopped. Is it better to detain a few when they need not have been detained or have released them and others when some should have been detained.
Often there is a fine line between when a person should be detained and when they should be released. Often seems to be that whatever the health care service does is wrong.
quote:
As for the group homes, I've heard of so many abuses of residents in them that it makes me cringe. Improper use of medication, refusal of group home staff to let residents leave the group home for the first 30 days for anything except dr visits and their reluctance to discharge people from them even when the resident is ready, are abusive practices and should be stopped. I'm sure there are abuses. But again, is it better to release residents and risk relapse or err on the side of caution and keep them a little longer? Again, health care services can't do right for doing wrong.
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RE: Mental Health Debate - One Stop Thread - 11/28/2006 8:35:31 PM
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Hischild1994
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The last time I was hospitalized (mid-Sept.) it was something that I didn't want to do, but it was strongly advised by my counselor and pdoc.
I had gotten addicted to one of the meds that the pdoc had me on. I had some pretty bad withdraws. I got pretty mean (verbally) with some of the staff. I was never restrained once.
In fact, several of them prayed with me. They showed me nothing but respect, even when I showed them a total lack of respect.
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RE: Mental Health Debate - One Stop Thread - 11/28/2006 9:16:24 PM
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FoxInSox
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as a special education teacher, i have occassionally had to restrain students.
its not fun for the staff, either. we usually end up pretty banged up.
(for the record, i have training and certification. well, i did that the time. my certification is out of date now; it only lasts a year).
i also know some horror stories of educational restraint gone bad. one that sticks out occurred when i was in college in a small district near my small college town. what began as a necessary restraint went bad, and a child died. that really drove home to me the necessity of as little restraint as possible and appropriate training.
michelle
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RE: Mental Health Debate - One Stop Thread - 12/1/2006 1:42:44 AM
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Pidge
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So how exactly does counselling work ? (The extra 'l' is because I'm British)
In a few hours time I face session no. 4. Each time it seems there is at least one 'killer question'. Is it normal to sob from one end to the other ?
Last week the question was 'And where do you think your mother is now ?'
(My mother left me a letter explaining why she wasn't a Christian when she died) How do counsellors deal with faith based issues ? What exactly does picking at the scabs do for healing ? Does counselling work or is it like believing that the nastier tasting the medicine the better it is for you ?
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RE: Mental Health Debate - One Stop Thread - 12/1/2006 3:31:55 AM
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agapetos
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Counselling works different for different people and under different circumstances. I've just finished seeing a psychologist under the NHS who had planned to see me for 8 sessions to look at coping strategies. We just about got that sorted because in amongst those 8 sessions other things came up. She's suggested more therapy to deal with that (time didn't allow for her to and she's leaving next week).
At a guess, discussing coping strategies isn't going to trigger a response to floods of tears. Talking about some trauma in your life may though.
quote:
How do counsellors deal with faith based issues ? I'm guessing that it depends one what kind of counsellor your seeing. I've never met one who has sought to destroy someone's faith even though they don't know the answers or believe in God (I used to work somewhere that offered therapy).
quote:
What exactly does picking at the scabs do for healing ? Emotional/mental scabs can be very different to physical ones. Sometimes when something has happened to us emotionally the wiring in our brain can be rewired incorrectly. Means we don't always think in a logical way. So this happens to most of us and most of us are able to deal with it. But sometimes there is that one tiny wire that goes of and affects us so much we need to undo the damage. Not so much picking at scabs but more an op and some rewiring.
quote:
Does counselling work or is it like believing that the nastier tasting the medicine the better it is for you ? Only time will tell if it works or not. As I said, I just had 8 sessions with my therapist and she's helped with the coping strategies thing some. But there's more to deal with ~ and I do feel that I need help for this, not just relying on God's healing power ~ hence her suggestion I have more therapy. For someone that saw me for such a short time she told me stuff about myself that no one else had ever done. That's helped me fell less alone with the person I see.
Going back to how it works ~ there is no magic formula for counselling. We're all different and we react in different ways. I know a lady who's been going for years and says that she keeps thinking that 'things are sorted and something else comes up'. I'm not convinced her therapist is doing her a lot of good now by allowing her to discuss all the 'something elses' ~ knowing this lady, there can be a something else every week ~ but she's paying for them so that's her decision.
Therapy may mean coping strategies (for depression, fear of flying, eating disorders) or it may mean looking at tramatic events in our lives than require 'surgery' to get our thinking back on track. Or there are a countless number of other reasons.
Do be sure and tell your therapist if you're feeling raw about something that's gone on in the week or even about the last session. This is your time to be healed ~ and some recovery times take longer (though I know that's hard if you're NHS patient).
quote:
The extra 'l' is because I'm British You and me both!
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RE: Mental Health Debate - One Stop Thread - 12/4/2006 11:48:51 AM
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debo1978
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This could sound crazy to some people but i recently had a conviction about a certain vitamin I was taking called TMG its actually good for lowering homocystein levels.
I really liked the focus it gave me mentally and after it broke down it turned into (Sam E)
which is sometimes used as a anti depressant so it put me in a really good mood.
Well the conviction was should't i look to Jesus for my joy and comfort mentally and not a vitamin so i stopped taking it.
Any thoughts?
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RE: Mental Health Debate - One Stop Thread - 12/4/2006 2:45:58 PM
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agapetos
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Not being sure what TMG and Sam E are, it's a hard question to answer...
Having said that ~ vitamin and mineral supplements should only ever be seen as supplements ~ we should get most of our requirements through the food we eat. Sometimes a supplement is called for but not as often as some suggest.
If this makes such a difference to you, why not see if you can increase your levels naturally, through your food?
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Knowledge is knowing that a tomato is a fruit.
Wisdom is not using them in fruit salads!
My blog
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RE: Mental Health Debate - One Stop Thread - 12/4/2006 4:29:58 PM
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stateofgrace
Posts: 2005
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As far as TMG, this is yet another case of something being marketed as a "nutritional supplement" which allows the product to avoid FDA testing and regulation. A lot of people think this sort of thing is "safe" because it's "natural"...and don't think about things like side effects and drug interactions. It may be the greatest thing since sliced bread, or it may be vastly overrated by the folks marketing it...
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RE: Mental Health Debate - One Stop Thread - 12/7/2006 12:52:36 PM
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debo1978
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I looked up the side effects for tmg and the only one there was is it can raise your cholesterol levels. but there isnt any long term research on it which is where the danger lies.
But I read in the footnotes of my bible about Todays Idolatry and It said If your answer to any of these questions Is anything or anyone other than God you may need to check who you are worshipping.
- Who created me
- whom do i ultimately trust
- whom do i look to for ultimate truth
- who is in charge of my future
and this is the one that gave me the conviction about taking the tmg pill
- whom do i look to for security and happiness
Do you think my conviction was valid, I didnt trust in that pill ultimately for my happiness but i did take it looking for this pill to help me be in a better mood chemically. is that making that pill in a sense an idol.
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RE: Mental Health Debate - One Stop Thread - 12/7/2006 3:55:11 PM
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phosadaud
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Is a diabetic taking insulin making insulin an idol?
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RE: Mental Health Debate - One Stop Thread - 12/7/2006 7:14:45 PM
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debo1978
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No a diabetic who takes insulin is not making it a Idol. Thats something you have to take to stay alive and Is a blessing from God that it is available.
and I was telling myself things like that phosodaud when i felt bad for taking the pill. Like "you dont feel bad if you take a tylenol for a headache"
But I still felt like I was wrong for taking it like I was looking to this pill for joy instead of letting the fruit of the spirit give me joy, and I wasn't sure if I was grieving the spirit and thats why I felt this way or what.
Is taking a natural mood enhancer wrong?
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RE: Mental Health Debate - One Stop Thread - 12/7/2006 10:22:42 PM
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debo1978
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i am sorry to everyone for jumping in here in the middle of your conversations, I posted in the faith issue forum and they told me to post here.
Thanks
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