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Worship banners and flags in Church - 9/20/2008 8:16:25 PM
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OldSchoolBeliever
Posts: 18
Joined: 7/21/2008
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My intention is not to offend anyone with this post. But I wonder if there is anyone else who is bothered by Churches using praise flags and banners during service. I come from a traditional Pentecostal perspective that never really knew that church banner and praise flags were becoming a fad of sort in evangelical circles. I have seen videos on the internet of various Churches using this as part of worship/praise but something about it honestly bothers me. I feel it is a distraction of sort and the Bibler specifies that we are to worship the father in spirit and in truth. The Holy Ghost doesn't need any type of instrument to minister and move upon his saints in the Church service. I understand that some will say that flag/banner worship has Old Testament roots but the fact remains that we are under the New Testament and God ministers directly with our hearts in spirit and in truth. In fact I would say that flag/banner worship is mostly an avenue for fleshly type worship instead of the power of the Holy Ghost moving directly upon a person. Please forgive me if I offend anyone but I feel this type of worship is the latest fad for charasmatic circles.
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RE: Worship banners and flags in Church - 9/20/2008 8:21:37 PM
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MrFribbles
Posts: 1712
Joined: 1/29/2007
From: Hawaii, but I've moved around since then
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Do you have a problem with instruments being played in the worship service?
_____________________________
You're a door without a key,
A field without a fence.
You've made a holy fool of me,
And I've thanked you ever since.
- Aaron Weiss
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RE: Worship banners and flags in Church - 9/20/2008 8:41:22 PM
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OldSchoolBeliever
Posts: 18
Joined: 7/21/2008
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I have no problem with instruments being played one bit at all.
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RE: Worship banners and flags in Church - 9/20/2008 8:43:15 PM
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colliefan
Posts: 2785
Joined: 4/12/2005
From: Raleigh, NC
Status: online
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there already has been a discussion on this topic. look in the archives to arise it from the dead
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RE: Worship banners and flags in Church - 9/20/2008 8:44:58 PM
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OldSchoolBeliever
Posts: 18
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Thank you, I will look in the archives.
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RE: Worship banners and flags in Church - 9/20/2008 8:50:46 PM
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MrFribbles
Posts: 1712
Joined: 1/29/2007
From: Hawaii, but I've moved around since then
Status: online
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quote:
I have no problem with instruments being played one bit at all.
What's really the difference between instruments and banners? One enhances the congregation's ability to worship through the ear, the other through the eye. Both can be conducive to deepening the worship experience. I think that what you may be dealing with here is a matter of personal conviction - which is fine, you just have to recognize it for what it is.
_____________________________
You're a door without a key,
A field without a fence.
You've made a holy fool of me,
And I've thanked you ever since.
- Aaron Weiss
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RE: Worship banners and flags in Church - 9/20/2008 8:50:50 PM
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lw9
Posts: 1131
Joined: 7/22/2005
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Hi OldSchoolBeliever. We had a discussion about this awhile ago, and in studying this issue it was apparent that some churches actually attribute special powers to the flags. You might find this thread interesting [read through to page 3 at least and you'll see the quotes claiming flags are weapons of warfare and healing, etc.]: LINK
< Message edited by lw9 -- 9/20/2008 8:57:43 PM >
_____________________________
Aperture Science. We do what we must because we can.
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RE: Worship banners and flags in Church - 9/21/2008 11:20:39 AM
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earthless
Posts: 6202
Joined: 4/11/2005
From: where pigeons are wearing sweaters....
Status: online
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quote:
ORIGINAL: lw9
Hi OldSchoolBeliever. We had a discussion about this awhile ago, and in studying this issue it was apparent that some churches actually attribute special powers to the flags. You might find this thread interesting [read through to page 3 at least and you'll see the quotes claiming flags are weapons of warfare and healing, etc.]: LINK
And sadly, most of all churches I have personally been to that uses them a lot - do just that.
_____________________________
Probing Today's Religious Movements | Promoting Doctrinal Discernment & Critical Thinking | Providing Reasons for Christian Faith & Ethics
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RE: Worship banners and flags in Church - 9/21/2008 12:41:20 PM
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Consecrated2God
Posts: 4976
Joined: 4/4/2005
From: Formerly Jesus Land
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Yes and no. I am in disagreement with the groups that think they have special powers. I don't think they have anything to do with spiritual warfare, and I don't think different colors mean different things.
On the other hand, they are really pretty. We're planning on making some banners soon to decorate the sanctuary. I love the way they look, and I think they can add a neat element to worship. I just think some people take them way too far.
_____________________________
<--Plantation house in Louisiana
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RE: Worship banners and flags in Church - 9/21/2008 12:58:19 PM
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Covaan_Meshuga
Posts: 3642
Joined: 6/8/2005
From: a mother who let me live
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Wow! i had no clue that people were attributing special powers to flags and banners! I thought they just liked the way they looked! This is interesting!
_____________________________
Abiyah
"Ladies and gentlemen, there are things that you will only be able to learn by the weakest among us, and when you snuff them out, you are the one that loses." ~~Gianna Jesson, 1977 LA, CA, saline abortion survivor
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RE: Worship banners and flags in Church - 9/21/2008 9:29:11 PM
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rapturefish
Posts: 109
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: OldSchoolBeliever
My intention is not to offend anyone with this post. But I wonder if there is anyone else who is bothered by Churches using praise flags and banners during service. I come from a traditional Pentecostal perspective that never really knew that church banner and praise flags were becoming a fad of sort in evangelical circles. I have seen videos on the internet of various Churches using this as part of worship/praise but something about it honestly bothers me. I feel it is a distraction of sort and the Bibler specifies that we are to worship the father in spirit and in truth. The Holy Ghost doesn't need any type of instrument to minister and move upon his saints in the Church service. I understand that some will say that flag/banner worship has Old Testament roots but the fact remains that we are under the New Testament and God ministers directly with our hearts in spirit and in truth. In fact I would say that flag/banner worship is mostly an avenue for fleshly type worship instead of the power of the Holy Ghost moving directly upon a person. Please forgive me if I offend anyone but I feel this type of worship is the latest fad for charasmatic circles.
It would be interesting to find out more about the history of the banner in churches. I think Constantine might have introduced them from banners used in battle as an appropriation of his military victory ( http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Khorugv ). I don't know about this trend in evangelical circles, but I'm more used to hearing about banners in Pentecostal or charismatic circles. Once again, the idea is announcement or declaration, and this seems in line with the theme of victory, particularly military victory, that Constantine brought into the church. I'm not sure whether this has carried over into the practice of heraldry, but the idea is the same.
This seems to sound fine when you talk about God giving the victory over his enemies and thinking about the old testament military sense. But when you look to Jesus, he spurned all attempts by people to make him a military king, and he deflated those who would try to further any movement against the Roman government. Instead, he preached about turning the other cheek, going the second mile, healed a soldier's ear, rode into Jerusalem on a donkey, refused to open his mouth to defend himself against the accusations against him and chose to die upon a cross.
I'm not against worship or the creative arts, but I think it's important to question what different things represent in a lot of churches today and realise that not all of them have purely christian origins. You could say banners have pagan origins thanks to Constantine. I would personally say that we should change the way we look at banners and instead make them in a way that reflects Jesus' attitude to victory. Perhaps the crosses and other depictions should be ugly and unappealling in a military sense. Perhaps the symbols of weakness and shame and lowliness should be placed on the banners instead of symbols of military pride. Perhaps they should be made in a way that isn't cute or generalised but in a way to emphasise the shamefulness and offense of it.
However they should be done, remember how Jesus expressed the concept of victory, and separate it from the pagan idea of victory that Constantine introduced, one that may have been well-intentioned but in the end at odds with Jesus.
_____________________________
-- rapturefish --
One happy barramundi  [<><]
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RE: Worship banners and flags in Church - 9/21/2008 10:17:26 PM
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TrustingGod
Posts: 150
Joined: 6/19/2008
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My nazarene church allows flags and dancing during worship. I'll admit that it distracted me at first and I'd guess a lot of people are distracted by it because it is different. I wonder if some of those dancing/flagging are doing it for show - maybe. But then I guess some of the singers in the choir are doing that for show too!
Unless there is something Biblical against the flags and dancing, I won't stand in the way of their worshp. In fact, I wish I could just let loose and dance before the Lord - but I only do that at home :)
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RE: Worship banners and flags in Church - 9/21/2008 11:18:06 PM
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techne
Posts: 579
Joined: 4/12/2005
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they're symbolic people - just like the brazen serpent (though people were healed when they looked at it), and the tabernacle and the priest's robes, etc., etc. so were the handkerchiefs that paul sent around. flags and banners are symbols that point to a larger reality. that's why they were/ are used in processions, in public events, as part of celebrations of all sorts, including military ones. then again, their use is probably a bigger issue in western christianity than in eastern christianity. which is also an interesting point, in light of rapturefish's talk of cultural context. let's not forget that banners and flags are far more common in the eastern culture than in western culture.
curiously, G-d himself tells us that he is jehovah nissi - the lord our banner. what's that all about?
_____________________________
And when people cease to believe that there is good and evil
Only beauty will call to them and save them
So that they still know how to say: this is true and that is false.
One more day by Czeslaw Milosz
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RE: Worship banners and flags in Church - 9/22/2008 12:59:18 PM
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1love1God1way
Posts: 2399
Joined: 5/16/2005
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I don't mind them being used as a symbol.
Sometimes, I suspect people dancing with them are just being more obnoxious than anything.
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love.ben
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RE: Worship banners and flags in Church - 9/22/2008 2:08:25 PM
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solarflare
Posts: 798
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quote:
ORIGINAL: techne
they're symbolic people - just like the brazen serpent (though people were healed when they looked at it), and the tabernacle and the priest's robes, etc., etc. so were the handkerchiefs that paul sent around. flags and banners are symbols that point to a larger reality. that's why they were/ are used in processions, in public events, as part of celebrations of all sorts, including military ones. then again, their use is probably a bigger issue in western christianity than in eastern christianity. which is also an interesting point, in light of rapturefish's talk of cultural context. let's not forget that banners and flags are far more common in the eastern culture than in western culture.
curiously, G-d himself tells us that he is jehovah nissi - the lord our banner. what's that all about?
Pretty much what he said.
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RE: Worship banners and flags in Church - 9/22/2008 5:40:14 PM
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colliefan
Posts: 2785
Joined: 4/12/2005
From: Raleigh, NC
Status: online
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quote:
G-d himself tells us that he is jehovah nissi - the lord our banner. what's that all about?
It means that He is our identity. Remember the old hymn with the lyrics "Here I raise my Ebenezer.." It is not talking about Scrooge but a flag.
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RE: Worship banners and flags in Church - 9/22/2008 7:48:17 PM
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OldSchoolBeliever
Posts: 18
Joined: 7/21/2008
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: rapturefish
quote:
ORIGINAL: OldSchoolBeliever
My intention is not to offend anyone with this post. But I wonder if there is anyone else who is bothered by Churches using praise flags and banners during service. I come from a traditional Pentecostal perspective that never really knew that church banner and praise flags were becoming a fad of sort in evangelical circles. I have seen videos on the internet of various Churches using this as part of worship/praise but something about it honestly bothers me. I feel it is a distraction of sort and the Bibler specifies that we are to worship the father in spirit and in truth. The Holy Ghost doesn't need any type of instrument to minister and move upon his saints in the Church service. I understand that some will say that flag/banner worship has Old Testament roots but the fact remains that we are under the New Testament and God ministers directly with our hearts in spirit and in truth. In fact I would say that flag/banner worship is mostly an avenue for fleshly type worship instead of the power of the Holy Ghost moving directly upon a person. Please forgive me if I offend anyone but I feel this type of worship is the latest fad for charasmatic circles.
It would be interesting to find out more about the history of the banner in churches. I think Constantine might have introduced them from banners used in battle as an appropriation of his military victory ( http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Khorugv ). I don't know about this trend in evangelical circles, but I'm more used to hearing about banners in Pentecostal or charismatic circles. Once again, the idea is announcement or declaration, and this seems in line with the theme of victory, particularly military victory, that Constantine brought into the church. I'm not sure whether this has carried over into the practice of heraldry, but the idea is the same.
This seems to sound fine when you talk about God giving the victory over his enemies and thinking about the old testament military sense. But when you look to Jesus, he spurned all attempts by people to make him a military king, and he deflated those who would try to further any movement against the Roman government. Instead, he preached about turning the other cheek, going the second mile, healed a soldier's ear, rode into Jerusalem on a donkey, refused to open his mouth to defend himself against the accusations against him and chose to die upon a cross.
I'm not against worship or the creative arts, but I think it's important to question what different things represent in a lot of churches today and realise that not all of them have purely christian origins. You could say banners have pagan origins thanks to Constantine. I would personally say that we should change the way we look at banners and instead make them in a way that reflects Jesus' attitude to victory. Perhaps the crosses and other depictions should be ugly and unappealling in a military sense. Perhaps the symbols of weakness and shame and lowliness should be placed on the banners instead of symbols of military pride. Perhaps they should be made in a way that isn't cute or generalised but in a way to emphasise the shamefulness and offense of it.
However they should be done, remember how Jesus expressed the concept of victory, and separate it from the pagan idea of victory that Constantine introduced, one that may have been well-intentioned but in the end at odds with Jesus.
I agree with your post. I think maybe the banner/flag worship is detracting from the fact that what makes the Gospel so powerful and overwhelming to the heart is the power of the old rugged cross. IMHO flags/banners should be relegated to specific celebatory occasions and not necesarrially to be used all the time. What concerns me is the choreographed dancing that goes along with banner worship. A lot of times it seems fleshly in nature and not truly edifying to the Church in a TRUE GENUINE spiritual sense.
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RE: Worship banners and flags in Church - 9/29/2008 9:41:48 PM
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vew
Posts: 4
Joined: 12/6/2007
Status: offline
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]Historical works trace national flags back to the standards used by armies of ancient peoples such as the Egyptioans, Persians and Romans. This is noted by the Encyclopedia Americania in its edition of 1969: "Fighting men of ancient times rallied to banners and standards that were symbols having some relationship to the modern idea of flags."
Going back as far as the ancient Egyptians in tracing the history of flags, The Encyclopedia Britannics, Eleventh Edition, observes on page 454, Vol.10:"From their carvings and paintings, supplemented by ancient writers, it appears that several companies of the Egyptioan army had their own particular standards. These were formed of such objects as, there is reason to believem were associated in the minds of the men with feelings of awe and devotion. Fan and feather-shaped sybols, were raised on the end of a sraff as standards, and the office of bearing them was looked upon as one of particular privilege and honour."
This encyclopedia observes regarding the Roman standards: "The Roman standards were guarded with religious veneration in the temples of Rome. It was not unusual for a general to order a stanard to be cst into the ranks of the enem, to add zeal to the onset of his soldiers by exciting them to recove rwaht to h=them was perhaps the most sacred thing the earth possessed."
Are flags Worshiped today?
We have seen that ancient peoples gave religious worship to their standards, the forerunners of modern-day falgs. Do you think that people today do the same? There are those who believe they do.
In the colonial days of America the Puritans objected to the British flag because of its red cross of St. George. According to the Encyclopedia Britannica, they did this, "not from any disloyalty to the mother country," but from a conscientious objection to what they deemed an idolatrous symbol."
The Jehovah's Witnesses today take the same position the world over. 1cor.10:14
Their position is comparable to that taken by the Christians of the 1st century of our common era. Because of conscience, those early Christians refused to burn incese to Ceasar, who, to the Romans, was not onlly a ruler but a god. Note what is said about this on page 137 of the 1st volume of the book A HISTORY OF CIVILIZATION By Christopher and Wolff:
"To hold this motley collection of peoples in a common allegiance, to give them something like a national flag as a symbol of thie unity, the emperor was deified....Simple rites of sacrifice to him were added to local religions and local rites....The Christians, however, were as rigorous monotheists as the Jews; they could not sacrifice to the emperor any more than the Jews of old could sacrifice to Baal...The true Christian, then, could not bring himself to make what to an outsider was merely a decent geature, like raising one's hat today when the flag goes by in a parade."
This information may not deal specifically with your situation...However, I saw a correlation. VEW[/size]
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of course, the context of the word "raise" in its time simply means "to erect or install" rather than a physically lifting over one's head... 