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Who's your Daddy? - 7/24/2008 8:19:30 PM
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Luvinme
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I am sure this idea has been revealed to me by God...
Adam and Eve before the fall were Mother and Father for all mankind. Their job was to reproduce and have children and populate the earth. Imagine if there was never a fall, Adam and Eve could not die and were always in perfect health. So, Adam and Eve continued to bare children over and over in the perfect world. Adam and Eve would continue to bare children for years and years right into our time. They alone would only populate the earth and their children only knew Adam and Eve as Mother and Father. They were most reveared and respected. In their children's innocence they never would conceive their own children as this would not be revealed to them and it would be unthinkable to lie with their own brothers and sisters.
This would give better term for how Jesus relates to us as being brothers and sisters and I see it that because of the fall we have taken on Adam's and Eve's roll and are now trying to be Adam and Eve's. We try to be what is right, but repeat their role and fall into sin constantly never to repair ourselves through our children.
Guess this gives more meaning to only through Christ we are saved.
Any thoughts?
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As a sinner we have to accept that it is not easy to truly touch the will of God unless we have experiences that challenge the depths of our own will to show whose strenght we decide to have faith in to overcome it.
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RE: Who's your Daddy? - 7/24/2008 9:46:44 PM
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MrFribbles
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I'm not sure I agree with the concept that, in this hypothetical innocent world, the children would not have had children of their own. God didn't make the act of reproduction after the fall, nor are the desires for this act inherently sinful (though sadly, in this day and age, it is all too often twisted into something that is).
When I imagine what earth would be like had the fall never occurred, I tend to lean more towards a Ted Dekkar-ish view (minus all the bats), in that the first man and woman would still be recognized as the first, but their children would go off and start their own families, and their kids would start families, until there was a whole civilization, with separate cities and cultures - unified, yet diverse.
_____________________________
Reason is the natural order of truth; but imagination is the organ of meaning.
-C. S. Lewis
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RE: Who's your Daddy? - 7/25/2008 5:57:21 AM
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Luvinme
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Interesting... I still see it though that "we would be like children." In an innocent world how would they know they have reproductive organs and what sex is anyway? They would always be child-like. Like a child in today's day would not understand what sex is? (although many of them are rather educated on this subject through media and such)
_____________________________
As a sinner we have to accept that it is not easy to truly touch the will of God unless we have experiences that challenge the depths of our own will to show whose strenght we decide to have faith in to overcome it.
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RE: Who's your Daddy? - 7/25/2008 11:39:08 AM
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Zhi
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Having intimate relations, and subsequently children, is not a sinful act. The "be fruitful and multiply" command is prior to the Fall, and "multiply" only happens if your offspring are subsequently having offspring. The reason that incest is bad is the fact that along with everything else, our DNA was corrupted in the Fall, and as a consequence reproduction with direct relatives tends to cause severe birth defects. As far as I can tell, the corruption reached sufficient levels to cause issues a few centuries after the Flood. After all, incest was not forbidden until the time of Moses.
Innocence and knowledge of nakedness is not a required precursor of intimate relations. Animals don't know they're naked and are incapable of sin per se, but they manage to breed.
_____________________________
The optimist says the glass is half full. The pessimist says the glass is half empty. The engineer says the glass is twice as large as it needs to be.
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RE: Who's your Daddy? - 7/25/2008 1:39:14 PM
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MrFribbles
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I quite agree, Zhi.
quote:
I still see it though that "we would be like children."
I'm unsure where you are getting this notion from. Children today, in our fallen world, are far from innocent. You do not need to teach a child to lie, or to smack another child who tries to take away "their" toy. An attitude and life of innocence has to do with one's actions, not one's age.
quote:
In an innocent world how would they know they have reproductive organs and what sex is anyway? They would always be child-like.
As Zhi says, sex isn't bad. It is entirely possible for the sexual act to be innocent.
_____________________________
Reason is the natural order of truth; but imagination is the organ of meaning.
-C. S. Lewis
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RE: Who's your Daddy? - 7/25/2008 3:07:27 PM
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Luvinme
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I appreciate your feedback! I know it is a very different way to look at something with little to go on and what does it prove anyway? But I do have a deep conviction on the topic. Jesus said it was hard for us to understand God and the secrets of heaven and that is why he used parables. It is hard for us to see past our own understanding and our own worldliness.
I am seeing things in the perfect world before sin, and I do feel strongly it would have been as I presented it above. Children are innocent in this day to a degree, but true we are all born into sin. I see their innocents though and a child even in this day would never understand or desire to have sex until a much older age. In the perfect world I see Adam and Eve's children as always complete in their innocence, never understanding things like how it is now. Thier eyes would be closed to things that are of no use like populating the earth or sex since Adam and Eve are Mother and Father and responsible for population. Everyone else is brother and sister and Eve alone bares enough children to populate the earth in her perfectness and good health. Adam and Eve's children do not understand any other role than brother and sister. There would be no reason for them to desire to have their own children as they live only to respect Mother and Father and in harmony love one another with God. Personal gain is non-existant.
Agreed sex is not sin, but in the perfect world I believe it would have only been between Adam and Eve - the only Mother and Father.
< Message edited by Luvinme -- 7/25/2008 3:21:04 PM >
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RE: Who's your Daddy? - 7/25/2008 4:50:44 PM
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MrFribbles
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Luvinme, do you believe that this hypothetical children of Adam and Eve would not go through the physical process of puberty?
_____________________________
Reason is the natural order of truth; but imagination is the organ of meaning.
-C. S. Lewis
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RE: Who's your Daddy? - 7/25/2008 6:38:22 PM
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Bluethread
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Luvinme
I am sure this idea has been revealed to me by God...
One needs to be very careful in making statements like this. It appears you are calling yourself a prophetess. Are you willing to accept the responsibility, if you are wrong?
_____________________________
"Show me wherein I have errored and I will hold my tongue." Iyov(Job)
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RE: Who's your Daddy? - 7/25/2008 8:42:21 PM
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Luvinme
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Sure, why not. I told you this is what I feel God laid on my heart. I may be wrong, but hey, I may also be right. I think I make a good arguement actually so why not discuss??
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RE: Who's your Daddy? - 7/25/2008 8:46:31 PM
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MrFribbles
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quote:
Sure, why not.
Luvinme, was that in response to my question, or Bluethread's post?
_____________________________
Reason is the natural order of truth; but imagination is the organ of meaning.
-C. S. Lewis
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RE: Who's your Daddy? - 7/25/2008 9:36:17 PM
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Luvinme
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Oh, lol... I just noticed it sorry Mr. Fribbles
I have somewhat thought of it and I think that it would not develop the same as us since it would not be used.
Interesting to here your thoughts, I have mentioned it to one or two in my circle and I was looked at quite strangly let me tell you lol
Actually, I like to draw, and I would love to be able to draw my idea.... hmmmm
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RE: Who's your Daddy? - 7/25/2008 10:19:15 PM
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MrFribbles
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quote:
I have somewhat thought of it and I think that it would not develop the same as us since it would not be used.
Two questions. 1, do you believe Adam and Eve were created physically mature? 2, do you believe, then, that the process of puberty was generated by the fall?
quote:
Actually, I like to draw, and I would love to be able to draw my idea.... hmmmm
That could be really cool. : )
_____________________________
Reason is the natural order of truth; but imagination is the organ of meaning.
-C. S. Lewis
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RE: Who's your Daddy? - 7/26/2008 2:07:49 AM
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Bluethread
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Luvinme
Sure, why not. I told you this is what I feel God laid on my heart. I may be wrong, but hey, I may also be right. I think I make a good arguement actually so why not discuss??
To discuss something is one thing. To state publicly that, "I am sure this idea has been revealed to me by God..." is to risk Adonais wrath. If one accredits something to Adonai that He has not said, we are commanded, at least, not to listen to that person. There are much sterner consequences, but I do not want to derail the tread. I am just saying we need to be careful with how we speak of extrabiblical information.
_____________________________
"Show me wherein I have errored and I will hold my tongue." Iyov(Job)
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RE: Who's your Daddy? - 7/26/2008 9:22:20 AM
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Luvinme
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Hi Bluethread: We make statements all the time based on our opinions and how we have learned things. Am I not entitled to state MY opinion? I am not forcing my ideas on anyone based on my understanding of feeling that God has spoken to me regarding this issue. I am testing it by suggesting it to you. Truthfully, I have not heard anyone else suggesting this idea. Even still, I don't see anything scriptural that could suggest that I am wrong or that I am blaspheming the Word of God. It is just a possible idea that I am not sure what it could mean or how it could even help without any real substantial scripture to back me up. I do see it though that understanding the Bible as a whole and God and reading God's teachings on things like being "child-like" and brother and sister love relationship idea and how we are to respect our parents does reflect well with my perfect world idea, and I see it that these idea's would actually be considered life and the very essance of what is important to the perfect world in a much more passionate way than how we understand it today.
Mr Fribbles: I see it that Adam and Eve were created to create and therefore reached sexual maturity and maintained it. When a cripple does not use his hand anymore it becomes withered and useless. I don't believe their children would have developed to sexual maturity since they did not have a use for it.
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RE: Who's your Daddy? - 7/26/2008 10:55:54 AM
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MrFribbles
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quote:
I see it that Adam and Eve were created to create and therefore reached sexual maturity and maintained it. When a cripple does not use his hand anymore it becomes withered and useless. I don't believe their children would have developed to sexual maturity since they did not have a use for it.
But since there's nothing sinful about sex, then why would the children not develop as human beings naturally do? If children would only mature through puberty because of the fall, does that not imply that our sexuality is somehow sinful in your view of things - a necessary evil that Adam and Eve alone must bear?
_____________________________
Reason is the natural order of truth; but imagination is the organ of meaning.
-C. S. Lewis
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RE: Who's your Daddy? - 7/26/2008 11:04:12 AM
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Carico
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Luvinme
I am sure this idea has been revealed to me by God...
Adam and Eve before the fall were Mother and Father for all mankind. Their job was to reproduce and have children and populate the earth. Imagine if there was never a fall, Adam and Eve could not die and were always in perfect health. So, Adam and Eve continued to bare children over and over in the perfect world. Adam and Eve would continue to bare children for years and years right into our time. They alone would only populate the earth and their children only knew Adam and Eve as Mother and Father. They were most reveared and respected. In their children's innocence they never would conceive their own children as this would not be revealed to them and it would be unthinkable to lie with their own brothers and sisters.
This would give better term for how Jesus relates to us as being brothers and sisters and I see it that because of the fall we have taken on Adam's and Eve's roll and are now trying to be Adam and Eve's. We try to be what is right, but repeat their role and fall into sin constantly never to repair ourselves through our children.
Guess this gives more meaning to only through Christ we are saved.
Any thoughts?
Sorry, but once we are born again, our new father is God because we've been re-born of His spirit. That's why Jesus tells us in Matthew 23;9, "Do not call anyone on earth 'father' for you have one Father and he is in heaven." But that only refers to people born again of the Spirit. 
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RE: Who's your Daddy? - 7/26/2008 3:16:09 PM
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Luvinme
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Okay Carico, see your point, but Adam and Eve's children did not marry together until after the fall didn't they? I am just saying if there was never a fall. It is probably not a subject to really get fussy about, but I am just saying that this could be.
About who's your Daddy and the point you made about being born of His Spirit - Well Adam and Eve are born of His Spirit and why wouldn't they have been in the perfect world? Also, the scripture you provided would then carry a debat on it's own since we call our earthly parents mother and father. Why in a "perfect world" would we not call Adam and Eve our earth parents and Father our God. Same.
I actually feel that God would have walked with Adam and Eve and their children in a perfect world on earth as He did before the fall and then separated Himself from them.
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RE: Who's your Daddy? - 7/26/2008 8:44:42 PM
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MrFribbles
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quote:
but Adam and Eve's children did not marry together until after the fall didn't they?
Since Cain and Abel's birth doesn't occur in the narrative until after they leave Eden, we can assume that Adam and Even didn't have kids until after the fall, so there wasn't a chance for them to marry prior to it.
_____________________________
Reason is the natural order of truth; but imagination is the organ of meaning.
-C. S. Lewis
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RE: Who's your Daddy? - 7/27/2008 6:20:40 PM
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Zhi
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Adam and Eve were just as innocent as any hypothetical children they would have had without the Fall. Therefore, if you accept that Adam and Eve could, in innocence, perform the requisite actions to reproduce, it follows that their children could, also in innocence, perform the requisite actions.
Edit: My husband made an interesting comment when I mentioned this to him (we drive 90 minutes each way every weekend to work on our house, so we have a lot of chatting time)
Him: Well, Adam married his clone so I'm not sure why marrying a sibling would have been a big deal.
Me: Huh?
Him: Well, you know, God took Adam's rib and made Eve out of it, so, the first clone.
Me: Huh. Thats an interesting point.
< Message edited by Zhi -- 7/27/2008 6:53:36 PM >
_____________________________
The optimist says the glass is half full. The pessimist says the glass is half empty. The engineer says the glass is twice as large as it needs to be.
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RE: Who's your Daddy? - 7/27/2008 8:42:49 PM
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colliefan
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Gen 2:24 - 25 (HCSB) 24This is why a man leaves his father and mother and bonds with his wife, and they become one flesh.£ 25Both the man and his wife were naked, yet felt no shame.
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The grace of God is infinite and eternal. As it had no beginning, so it can have no end, and being an attribute of God, it is as boundless as infinitude.
A. W. Tozer (1897–1963)
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RE: Who's your Daddy? - 7/28/2008 6:53:08 PM
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Luvinme
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quote:
ORIGINAL: colliefan
Gen 2:24 - 25 (HCSB) 24This is why a man leaves his father and mother and bonds with his wife, and they become one flesh.£ 25Both the man and his wife were naked, yet felt no shame.
Okay, granted, this kinda kills my idea. Thanks Colliefan.
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RE: Who's your Daddy? - 8/1/2008 10:36:27 AM
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ta_mosquito
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