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Where is our doctrine? Preachers please respond - 9/22/2008 7:43:15 AM
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rwe2156
Posts: 2362
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Where is doctrine in the church today?
Does your church teach the doctrines of the Bible?
How about Sunday School?
I really think doctrine suffers in my church, at least.
Is it too boring, to offensive, or what?
Responses from preachers will be especially appreciated.
_____________________________
The Truth is between the tensions. The "contradictions"only reflect our lack of understanding.
So we choose sides. God help us.
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RE: Where is our doctrine? Preachers please respond - 9/22/2008 11:34:07 AM
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Doghouse
Posts: 889
Joined: 8/25/2007
From: The Buckle of the Bible Belt
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quote:
Where is doctrine in the church today? From what I observe, many here seem to believe that every Christian is allowed to dive into Scriptures on their own, and whatever they discern as doctrine is perfectly okay, because that's what is allowed to be done.
I contrast that with other faith practices, where the Church is the repository of faith, and the Church is where one finds the doctrines discerned from Scriptures, and conveyed to all the faithful.
Noting that some of the older "mainline" denominations do have confessions and other Scripturally-derived statements of doctrine, and still others have a catechism to assist in the instruction of their doctrine.
_____________________________
When someone virtuous turns away from virtue to commit iniquity...it is because of the iniquity he committed that he must die. But if he turns from the wickedness he has committed, he does what is right and just, he shall preserve his life" - Ez 18:25-28
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RE: Where is our doctrine? Preachers please respond - 9/22/2008 12:09:58 PM
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Lapidoth
Posts: 3605
Joined: 4/13/2005
From: OKLAHOMA
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Mine is a limited viewpoint.
where is the doctrine?
It goes by the wayside because we are at the "age"
of people with "itchy ears" raising up teachers unto themselves.
Even those in our circles who appear to have a grasp on theology,
actually reveal a lack or shallowness of real doctrine. Seems each
day a new group rises with more "enlightenment" and then portions
of the masses fall in behind them.
The only solution to "real doctrine" is for the 'masses' to read and
study the Word itself for themselves. Go into any "Bible" Book Store,
there are thousands of books by men. Compare the sections that may
or not have Bibles on the shelves. The comparison is astounding.
Thousands of shelves for books by men, and a handful of shelves
containing the Word of God. The Holy Spirit "leads" us into all truth.
We have the option to reject the truth. Kinda like leading a horse to
water. If he isn't thirsty, he ain't a gonna drink.
Do we grab a bottle of "pure" water, or do we indulge with sugar water
with what ever label you want to put on it? Coke, Pepsi, Root Beer, etc.?
_____________________________
Why does He keep quoting Torah? Doesn't He know He's about to abolish it?
http://www.tedpearce.com/Videos/TheForgottenpeople.html
BARUCH HABA BASHEM YAHUAH
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RE: Where is our doctrine? Preachers please respond - 9/22/2008 2:21:43 PM
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PaulaMarolewski
Posts: 6
Joined: 7/2/2008
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Hello! As a teacher, your question is near and dear to my heart. Here are a few thoughts:
* Where is doctrine in the church today?
The doctrine is there - most churches have a statement of faith, but most people in those same churches could not tell you if you stopped them on the street exactly what they believe and why. I firmly believe that this is because we focus too often on teaching content alone, rather than content + reason + application.
For instance, most people know that God sent a flood and Noah built the ark. That's content. When you add reason to that, you have people answer questions like:
- Why did God send the flood?
- How would you define and describe evil?
- Do you really think evil deserves to be judged?
- How would you define and describe righteousness?
- How do God's justice and love interact in the story of the Flood?
Reason helps us understand the doctrine behind the content.
Then you have to add application:
- Where do you see evil at work today?
- Do you believe that God is still in the business of judging evil? Where and how does he do so?
- Do you really live with the perspective that God will again judge the whole world? Why or why not?
- Where do you see righteousness at work today?
- What can you personally do to confront the evil in your sphere of influence?
- Where have you succumbed to sin and evil?
- How would you respond to God if God asked you to do something as wild as he asked of Noah (the equivalent of building an ark when it had never rained!)?
Application allows doctrine to transform our lives.
* Does your church teach the doctrines of the Bible?
We do. Our church is blessed with a pastor who explains content, draws out principles, and challenges people to action.
* How about Sunday School?
Ditto the above. As one of the adult Sunday School teachers, I develop curriculum that stimulates people to truly grapple with the Word of God, understand it, and take the step to daily application. A common theme is, "Wow! You really make us think!" and "That course made a real difference in my life."
You can see the need underscored again: not just content that people yawn through and give a head-nod to ... to bring the vitality of doctrine back into the church and back into individual lives, we need to challenge their minds and their hearts.
* Is [doctrine] too boring, to offensive, or what?
I have observed that most people immediately assume that doctrine is boring. That's why I don't usually tell people that I'm teaching them doctrine.  For instance, I once taught on the history of the Church. One of the lessons was on Augustine, focusing on the doctrines of sin and grace. I could have entitled it "Augustine: Sin and Grace," and gotten no takers. Instead, I entitled it "The Devil Made Me Do It!" and people loved it. So, as teachers and preachers, we need to make doctrine attractive to people without - and this is key - watering it down in the slightest.
I believe that people are hungering for the challenge and transformation inherent in true, orthodox Christian doctrine. As teachers and preachers, we need to deliver.
_____________________________
Paula Marolewski
Sink Your Roots: http://www.SinkYourRoots.com/
Christian Bible Studies for Serious Growth
Home of Seedlings – A free weekly devotional of “Little thoughts that grow big results.”
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RE: Where is our doctrine? Preachers please respond - 9/22/2008 5:40:53 PM
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rwe2156
Posts: 2362
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quote:
but most people in those same churches could not tell you if you stopped them on the street exactly what they believe and why. This is exactly what I am talking about.
Knowing what we believe and why we believe it.
Most do not.
Look at the testmonies people give and you'll see what I mean.
_____________________________
The Truth is between the tensions. The "contradictions"only reflect our lack of understanding.
So we choose sides. God help us.
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RE: Where is our doctrine? Preachers please respond - 9/22/2008 5:47:58 PM
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rwe2156
Posts: 2362
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Lapidoth
Where is the doctrine?
It goes by the wayside because we are at the "age"
of people with "itchy ears" raising up teachers unto themselves.
You think a small church can be trusted to choose a pastor?
quote:
The only solution to "real doctrine" is for the 'masses' to read and
study the Word itself for themselves.
I don't believe most people are drawn to studying doctrine.
Heck, its hard enough just to get them to study their Bible!
No, doctrine must be taught. It must be taught by pastors
and teachers grounded in doctrine and with a heart for it.
_____________________________
The Truth is between the tensions. The "contradictions"only reflect our lack of understanding.
So we choose sides. God help us.
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RE: Where is our doctrine? Preachers please respond - 9/22/2008 5:56:42 PM
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rwe2156
Posts: 2362
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Thank you Paula -
I did take a brief look at your website.
Is your theology Reformed?
I could tell you a very interesting story from a recent mission trip
about our "briefing" in preparation for door to door witnessing.
What happened afterwards was most interesting.
I can email you my testimony if you want.
_____________________________
The Truth is between the tensions. The "contradictions"only reflect our lack of understanding.
So we choose sides. God help us.
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RE: Where is our doctrine? Preachers please respond - 9/22/2008 7:56:24 PM
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Juda7
Posts: 19
Joined: 4/14/2005
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Lapidoth
Mine is a limited viewpoint.
where is the doctrine?
It goes by the wayside because we are at the "age"
of people with "itchy ears" raising up teachers unto themselves.
Even those in our circles who appear to have a grasp on theology,
actually reveal a lack or shallowness of real doctrine. Seems each
day a new group rises with more "enlightenment" and then portions
of the masses fall in behind them.
The only solution to "real doctrine" is for the 'masses' to read and
study the Word itself for themselves. Go into any "Bible" Book Store,
there are thousands of books by men. Compare the sections that may
or not have Bibles on the shelves. The comparison is astounding.
Thousands of shelves for books by men, and a handful of shelves
containing the Word of God. The Holy Spirit "leads" us into all truth.
We have the option to reject the truth. Kinda like leading a horse to
water. If he isn't thirsty, he ain't a gonna drink.
Do we grab a bottle of "pure" water, or do we indulge with sugar water
with what ever label you want to put on it? Coke, Pepsi, Root Beer, etc.?
So true!
_____________________________
I am so AGAINST the "New Apostolic Reformation" heresy!
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RE: Where is our doctrine? Preachers please respond - 9/23/2008 8:11:45 AM
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LBolt
Posts: 954
Joined: 11/30/2007
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Where is doctrine??? Our doctrine has been hurting for almost 1800 years! Jeremiah prophesied of a time when we will say, "surely our fathers have inherited lies, vanity and things wherein there is no profit."
Alot of what is espoused today as doctrine without going into to specifics is doctrines of man.
_____________________________
Wisdom is the principle thing; therefore get wisdom: and with all thy getting get understanding...she shall give to thine head an ornament of grace..---Proverbs 4:7
www.tatepublishing.com/bookstore/book.php?w=978-1-60604-743-9
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RE: Where is our doctrine? Preachers please respond - 9/23/2008 9:46:29 AM
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timf
Posts: 512
Joined: 10/20/2006
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Where is our doctrine? Preachers please respond
"Doctrine" just means teaching. There are many things being taught.
I see two different approaches to instruction. The first is the apprenticeship model and the other is the classroom model. The origins of the classroom can be found in the Socratic method which then evolves into the academy method and then into the classroom / university system.
In the apprentice model, the information that is presented is usually tied directly to the work that is being done. The information is also tied to how and why something is being done. Often the apprenticeship model is derided because there is variability due to the dependence upon the person who instructs. What is not often considered is what is lost when the connection with the "master" is severed.
Dessication is the process of removing water. However, a case can be made that the same process also removes life. When instruction is dessicated into packets of data, a case can be made that much is lost.
The storage of data in books and the measured retrieval in classrooms is a simulation of the instruction a student might receive from a master. What is lost is the personal connection with the master, his reputation, his character, his interaction with others, his values, and his wisdom. All that remains is data and information.
Another preliminary concept that I should describe is the difference between truth and being right. At first glance there would seem to be no difference between the two. However, as we give consideration, "being right" might be called the conformance to a standard. Truth is something more vital, pervasive, and elusive. Sometimes something is described as true and used as a standard for conformance. However, trying to use truth itself as such a measurement standard seems to rob it of something vital as if it turns truth into a club to use against others. As a result, people who want to "be right" can find themselvesat variance with truth.
The point at which truth and "being right" diverge can often be defined by the difference between the Spirit and the flesh. We can see examples these two approaches to God at the time of Jesus. The announcement by the angels of the birth of Jesus was not made to rulers, priests, or scholars. When Jesus was presented at the temple Anna and Simon were waiting for him, but where were the experts in law and "trained" religious people?
The Pharisees give a particularly good example of the flesh divorced from the Spirit. There were hardly any people more knowledgeable regarding the law, yet there was hardly a group further away from the truth. The ultimate example of this problem is Gamaliel. The most educated and presumable best teacher of the law in the nation and yet his great learning was more of a hindrance because he was unable to recognize Jesus as the truth.
I would contend that much of the scholarly work of seminaries duplicates the learning of the law performed by the Pharisees. While often motivated by good intentions, often what is produced are deductions and analysis for the establishment of "what is right". These lend themselves to standards of behavior and practice which then can become a type of Pharisaical legalism that can quench the Spirit.
Contentions over doctrine is often motivated by a sincere desire to correct some of the "error" found in the different seminary teachings of the day. I suggest that attempts at "correction" are a little like the tar baby in the Uncle Remus story. Offering an analysis of theological error can often draw you in to the same strictures that produced the error in the first place. This can suck a person into the same sort of contention that produces schisms in seminaries and and leads to the formation of increasingly divergent denominations.
In a list of works of the flesh listed in Galatians, the word for division is herisis. We get the word heresy from it, but at the time it only meant division. I think this is what happens to organizations as well as individuals when we approach God in the flesh. We get diverted away from truth into trying to define, list, categorize, label, and classify what is right. I suggest that when we try to correct error by using the same methods that produced it in the first place, we become vulnerable to substituting an alternative error instead of achieving the correction that we were striving for at the first.
I suggest that such error cannot be "corrected". The record we have of the Pharisees suggests a type of self-imposed blindness that prevents "correction". Jesus warns His disciples to beware of this "teaching" (leaven). It seems to be pervasive and not easily changed.
There is an alternative to approaching God in the flesh. We have the examples of Anna, Simon, the shepherds, and others who show a simple faith and hearts living by that faith. This is the way of the Spirit. They need little instruction in the minutiae of doctrine and theology. What they have is the living God directing them in their daily lives. They need little "protection" from false teaching because of their closeness to the Spirit of truth.
Jesus offered truth to the nation of Israel. They were not interested in truth because they knew that what they were doing was "right". I suggest that "Contending For The Faith" is not found in argument of doctrine, but in the advocacy of living by faith and seeking the leading of the Holy Spirit, and surrender to and trust in God. Exposure and condemnation of the evil in the world and the church might not bring hoped for correction of error, but the frustration symptomatic of an effort in the flesh.
In summary, I see the biggest problem in the Christian church today not as doctrinal error but the failure to walk by the Spirit. It is a "carnal" Christian life that makes us vulnerable to the influences of the world and keeps us from a closeness to our Savior.
My advice to Catholics is not first to abandon their doctrine, but to first study the Bible and get to know Jesus better. The Holy Spirit does a fine job of leading people where He wants them, all we have to do is encourage our brothers in Christ to drawn nearer their Savior.
Christianity often does better in hospitals and prisons that it does in country clubs. This may reflect what is needed to get our attention. The Bible often speaks of "crying out", "seeking after", and other expressions of heartfelt passionate expression of an intense desire for the Lord. What Christians need is a divorce from their attachments to the world and an infusion of desperate desire for their Lord. What Christians need is a closer walk with their Lord to achieve the answers to;
1. How to love the Lord with all our heart, mind, and strength.
2. How Christian husbands can love their wives.
3. How we can draw wisdom from God.
4. How to raise godly children.
5. How to keep ourselves unspotted from the world.
6. How to show the light and love of Jesus to all who know us.
7. How to be a "good and faithful servant".
The pastor who thinks he covered one of the above as a sermon lecture topic and thinks he has "done his job" does not understand the first thing about shepherding. Most pastors give classes and sermons because that is what they learned in seminary and what everyone else does. Most pastors are trapped in systems where even if they understood how to build relationships with others and minister at the level of the heart, their systems do not allow them to.
A scholastic understanding of dessicated "doctrine" is not the path to growth in the image of Christ. It is a heart that is turned to the Lord in surrender and dependence that is filled with the Holy Spirit which can receive the deeper things of the Lord. People do not come closer to God because of doctrine, they understand doctrine because they have come closer to the Lord.
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RE: Where is our doctrine? Preachers please respond - 9/23/2008 11:46:12 AM
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rwe2156
Posts: 2362
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Timf
I appreciate you long, scholarly post.
But somewhere there must be guardians of doctrine; places and people
we can go, and although the "reality of faith" type of learning is important,
we simply MUST know what we believe and why we believe it, lest we
become deceived by "truth" that simply makes sense to our rational minds.
The Baptist church has a Catechism. It is largely lost. Dr. Tom Nettles
has a book on it. You can call it indoctrination, but I am afraid many
will view it as brainwashing our little children into being "good little Christians".
This is a sorry view. I showed this book to one of the elders in my church -
he had never even heard of it - this man - a Baptist for 60+ years!!
Most people don't know what doctrine is, much less what their own denomninations
doctrinal views are. We have been led astray by man-centered salvation
and man-centered evangelistic techniques.
We have denied the gospel alone has the power to save and entertain
with music, charismatic preachers, and air-condiditoned multimedia
"user-friendly" techniques, as if God needed any help to save a soul!
I am burdened for this. Its not whether you are reformed or not,
lordship salvation or not, free grace or not, holiness or not - it is
whether a person knows what they believe and why they believe it.
It is always being ready to give a reason for the hope we have within.
In my denom (So. Baptist) we spend tons of time telling people how
to get to the narrow gate, but pitifully very little time teaching them
about the narrow road.
We don't tell them if you aren't on the narrow road you entered
through some other gate.
Instead we teach false Eternal Security in OSAS instead of
perseverance is the #1 mark of a true Christian.
I don't know who said it but this rings true:
"American Christianity is 3,000 miles wide and 1/2 inch deep."
_____________________________
The Truth is between the tensions. The "contradictions"only reflect our lack of understanding.
So we choose sides. God help us.
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RE: Where is our doctrine? Preachers please respond - 9/23/2008 1:37:04 PM
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URForgiven
Posts: 1120
Joined: 3/22/2008
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: rwe2156
Most people don't know what doctrine is, much less what their own denomninations
doctrinal views are. We have been led astray by man-centered salvation
and man-centered evangelistic techniques.
rwe2156, most people do not know Jesus Christ, to whom all proper doctrine points. Doctrine for doctrines sake is a fools errand. My Bible says that we who have received Christ have received everything we need. It does not say we have received only part of what we need, it says we have received everything. In Christ we are complete.
It is all about Him, and knowing Him more and more. That makes it all Christ-centric. The rest is just gravy.
Peace
_____________________________
"Are you so foolish? After beginning with the Spirit,
are you now trying to attain your goal by human effort?" Galatians 3:3
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RE: Where is our doctrine? Preachers please respond - 9/23/2008 2:21:10 PM
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Lapidoth
Posts: 3605
Joined: 4/13/2005
From: OKLAHOMA
Status: offline
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quote:
We have denied the gospel alone has the power to save and entertain
with music, charismatic preachers, and air-condiditoned multimedia
"user-friendly" techniques, as if God needed any help to save a soul!
This just might be what Paul would say to us:
Galatians 1:6-9
6. I am amazed that you are turning away so quickly to a different gospel
from the One Who called you in grace, Messiah,
7. which is not another gospel, unless some deceivers are troubling
you and want to turn around the gospel of the Messiah.
8. But if even we or an angel out of heaven would bring a gospel to
you contrary to the one we brought to you, he must be doomed to destruction,
an accursed thing.
9. As we told beforehand, now I also say again, if anyone brings you
a gospel contrary to what you received, he must be accursed,
doomed to destruction.
(v.11) --- For I make known to you, brothers, the gospel which was
proclaimed by me that it is not according to man:
(v.12) --- for neither did I take it from a person nor was I taught it,
but I was given it through revelation by Jesus Messiah.
_____________________________
Why does He keep quoting Torah? Doesn't He know He's about to abolish it?
http://www.tedpearce.com/Videos/TheForgottenpeople.html
BARUCH HABA BASHEM YAHUAH
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RE: Where is our doctrine? Preachers please respond - 9/23/2008 2:32:40 PM
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rwe2156
Posts: 2362
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: URForgiven
Doctrine for doctrines sake is a fools errand.
Doctrine is for the sake of confidence, assurance, and proper evangelism.
Deception and false teaching is the result of false doctrine or poor doctrine.
Without doctrine, the church is without a solid foundation.
quote:
My Bible says that we who have received Christ have received
everything we need. It does not say we have received only part of what
we need, it says we have received everything.
I don't know what you are saying here, but I hope it isn't that doctrine isn't important.
Doctrine guides before AND after we receive him.
There is a Doctrine of Salvation and a Doctrine of Sanctification.
quote:
In Christ we are complete. It is all about Him, and knowing Him
more and more. That makes it all Christ-centric. The rest is just gravy.
You ignore doctrine at your own peril.
You can say its Christ-centered, but you will live as a maverick
in error without proper doctrine.
You say its all about him and knowing him, but if there is no teaching
on sanctification, how would anyone know they might be deceived?
I believe there are many, many people tragically deceived about their
salvation because of poor doctrine.
_____________________________
The Truth is between the tensions. The "contradictions"only reflect our lack of understanding.
So we choose sides. God help us.
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RE: Where is our doctrine? Preachers please respond - 9/23/2008 2:48:35 PM
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URForgiven
Posts: 1120
Joined: 3/22/2008
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: rwe2156
quote:
ORIGINAL: URForgiven
Doctrine for doctrines sake is a fools errand.
Doctrine is for the sake of confidence, assurance, and proper evangelism.
Deception and false teaching is the result of false doctrine or poor doctrine.
Without doctrine, the church is without a solid foundation.
Without Jesus Christ, the Church is without any foundation. Without the Cornerstone the whole building will collapse.
quote:
quote:
My Bible says that we who have received Christ have received
everything we need. It does not say we have received only part of what
we need, it says we have received everything.
I don't know what you are saying here, but I hope it isn't that doctrine isn't important.
Doctrine guides before AND after we receive him.
There is a Doctrine of Salvation and a Doctrine of Sanctification.
..and then there is Jesus Christ.
quote:
quote:
In Christ we are complete. It is all about Him, and knowing Him
more and more. That makes it all Christ-centric. The rest is just gravy.
You ignore doctrine at your own peril.
You can say its Christ-centered, but you will live as a maverick
in error without proper doctrine.
You say its all about him and knowing him, but if there is no teaching
on sanctification, how would anyone know they might be deceived?
I believe there are many, many people tragically deceived about their
salvation because of poor doctrine.
There are many who are tragically deceived because they do not know Jesus Christ. Proper doctrine points to Jesus Christ and His sufficiency. Do not confuse that which is intended to help us draw nearer to Christ with Christ Himself. It is Christ who leads us into all understanding through His indwelling Spirit.
Peace
_____________________________
"Are you so foolish? After beginning with the Spirit,
are you now trying to attain your goal by human effort?" Galatians 3:3
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RE: Where is our doctrine? Preachers please respond - 9/23/2008 11:04:58 PM
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gatolover
Posts: 544
Joined: 6/23/2006
Status: offline
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Dear rwe2156,
I just popped in to say I enjoy your posts and perspective.
quote:
Doctrine is for the sake of confidence, assurance, and proper evangelism.
I would say the purpose of defining "doctrine" is to provide a proper interpretation of God's Truth, as revealed in Scripture, to the faithful members of the Church established by Christ which was comissioned to "baptize and teach" all nations.
quote:
Without doctrine, the church is without a solid foundation.
Agree! However, without "the" Church [established by Christ] with authority to define doctrine, we might all be Arians now!
quote:
There is a Doctrine of Salvation and a Doctrine of Sanctification.
I suppose this is the point where we must diverge, but it was a pleasure to interact with you for a minute.
quote:
You say its all about him and knowing him, but if there is no teaching
on sanctification, how would anyone know they might be deceived?
Indeed... When one claims the authority to define who is "deceived," "saved," or otherwise, there is no such thing as "assurance," IMHO.
Pax Christi, rwe2156,
gatolover
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RE: Where is our doctrine? Preachers please respond - 9/24/2008 7:27:37 AM
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rwe2156
Posts: 2362
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: URForgiven
Without Jesus Christ, the Church is without any foundation.
Without the Cornerstone the whole building will collapse.
Without doctrine, how can you be sure your Jesus is my Jesus, UR?
quote:
Proper doctrine points to Jesus Christ and His sufficiency.
Exactly.
quote:
Do not confuse that which is intended to help us draw nearer to
Christ with Christ Himself. It is Christ who leads us into all understanding
through His indwelling Spirit.
Relationship is wonderful, but we need teachers and preachers and doctrine.
We need to know the Truth to discern the false ones, too.
All I am saying is people need to know what they believe and why they believe it.
If each one of us has our own "statement of faith" and all it
is "I know Jesus" then what do we end up with? Every man
is his own church! Agree?
Because are minds are corrupted, be cannot understand Christ alone.
Put a man alone on an island with a Bible for 20 years and
what kind of religion do you think you'll get?
_____________________________
The Truth is between the tensions. The "contradictions"only reflect our lack of understanding.
So we choose sides. God help us.
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RE: Where is our doctrine? Preachers please respond - 9/24/2008 9:55:17 AM
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URForgiven
Posts: 1120
Joined: 3/22/2008
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: rwe2156
quote:
ORIGINAL: URForgiven
Without Jesus Christ, the Church is without any foundation.
Without the Cornerstone the whole building will collapse.
Without doctrine, how can you be sure your Jesus is my Jesus, UR?
quote:
Proper doctrine points to Jesus Christ and His sufficiency.
Exactly.
quote:
Do not confuse that which is intended to help us draw nearer to
Christ with Christ Himself. It is Christ who leads us into all understanding
through His indwelling Spirit.
Relationship is wonderful, but we need teachers and preachers and doctrine.
We need to know the Truth to discern the false ones, too.
All I am saying is people need to know what they believe and why they believe it.
If each one of us has our own "statement of faith" and all it
is "I know Jesus" then what do we end up with? Every man
is his own church! Agree?
Because are minds are corrupted, be cannot understand Christ alone.
Put a man alone on an island with a Bible for 20 years and
what kind of religion do you think you'll get?
I am not anti-doctrine, I am pro Jesus Christ. It is not about knowing what we believe, it is about knowing Who we believe in. There is a huge difference between those two.
We, who are indwelt by the Holy Spirit, have the mind of Christ...
1 Corinthians 2:16
"For who has known or understood the mind (the counsels and purposes) of the Lord so as to guide and instruct Him and give Him knowledge? But we have the mind of Christ (the Messiah) and do hold the thoughts (feelings and purposes) of His heart"
It is our knowledge of Him, that gives us everything we need for life and godliness...
2 Peter 1:3
"His divine power has given us everything we need for life and godliness through our knowledge of Him who called us by His own glory and goodness."
You cannot replace Jesus Christ with doctrine. It is all about Him, and when your doctrine is pointing you to itself as the answer, then it is bad doctrine indeed.
Peace
_____________________________
"Are you so foolish? After beginning with the Spirit,
are you now trying to attain your goal by human effort?" Galatians 3:3
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RE: Where is our doctrine? Preachers please respond - 9/24/2008 4:39:57 PM
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Odeliya
Posts: 2380
Joined: 8/10/2005
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: rwe2156
Where is doctrine in the church today?
Does your church teach the doctrines of the Bible?
How about Sunday School?
I really think doctrine suffers in my church, at least.
Is it too boring, to offensive, or what?
Modern Church esp. in States is a cut throat business. They'll eat you up and spit you out.
Preachers know that. They try to be competitive, market it tough.
It takes a mature man of God to go against the flow, and he has to understand that he will lose all those who want their ears tickeled, which is the majority. That takes a man...
_____________________________
Proverbs XI:14 Where no counsel is, the people fall: but in the multitude of counselors there is safety.
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RE: Where is our doctrine? Preachers please respond - 9/24/2008 5:43:30 PM
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rwe2156
Posts: 2362
Status: offline
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quote:
I am not anti-doctrine, I am pro Jesus Christ.
It is not about knowing what we believe, it is about knowing Who we believe in.
There is a huge difference between those two.
You say your not anti-doctrine, but then you say doctrine doesn't matter?
Which is it?
If you are pro-Jesus, your are pro-doctrine.
What do you think Jesus was teaching?
Yes - Doctrine.
_____________________________
The Truth is between the tensions. The "contradictions"only reflect our lack of understanding.
So we choose sides. God help us.
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RE: Where is our doctrine? Preachers please respond - 9/24/2008 7:41:06 PM
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URForgiven
Posts: 1120
Joined: 3/22/2008
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: rwe2156
What do you think Jesus was teaching?
2 Corinthians 11:3
But I fear, lest by any means, as the serpent beguiled Eve through his subtilty, so your minds should be corrupted from the simplicity that is in Christ.
The difference between truth and error is most times very subtle...I will leave you with that final thought. Bless you.
Peace
_____________________________
"Are you so foolish? After beginning with the Spirit,
are you now trying to attain your goal by human effort?" Galatians 3:3
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