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Trust me? - 9/7/2008 5:32:19 AM
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pinopolitan
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Is it legitimate for Christians to expect God to trust them in the way one who is married expects their spouse to trust them?
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RE: Trust me? - 9/7/2008 11:29:09 AM
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MrFribbles
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I'm a bit confused. Are you saying that a situation can arise where God would need to trust us? What sort of situation do you envision this being?
_____________________________
You're a door without a key,
A field without a fence.
You've made a holy fool of me,
And I've thanked you ever since.
- Aaron Weiss
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RE: Trust me? - 9/7/2008 2:24:01 PM
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pinopolitan
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"Need" is your word, sir. Certainly it is false to imply that God "needs" anything. That is Islamic theology. No, there are several examples where it is indicated that God trusted certain men and women. Can you not think of any situations where this is implied?
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RE: Trust me? - 9/7/2008 4:45:13 PM
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MrFribbles
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quote:
No, there are several examples where it is indicated that God trusted certain men and women. Can you not think of any situations where this is implied?
It depends on what you mean by "trusted". Can you give an example of one of those instances? Perhaps that could help clarify. : )
_____________________________
You're a door without a key,
A field without a fence.
You've made a holy fool of me,
And I've thanked you ever since.
- Aaron Weiss
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RE: Trust me? - 9/8/2008 10:05:07 PM
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Theophile2
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1Co 4:1 This is how one should regard us, as servants of Christ and stewards of the mysteries of God.
1Co 4:2 Moreover, it is required of stewards that they be found trustworthy.
1Co 9:17 For if I do this of my own will, I have a reward, but not of my own will, I am still entrusted with a stewardship.
Eph 3:2 assuming that you have heard of the stewardship of God's grace that was given to me for you,
Col 1:25 of which I became a minister according to the stewardship from God that was given to me for you, to make the word of God fully known,
Tit 1:7 For an overseer, as God's steward, must be above reproach. He must not be arrogant or quick-tempered or a drunkard or violent or greedy for gain,
1Pe 4:10 As each has received a gift, use it to serve one another, as good stewards of God's varied grace:
.... so as stewards of the gifts of God, are we not "entrusted" with this stewardship?
_____________________________
"Unless I am convinced by Scripture and plain reason ... my conscience is captive to the Word of God." - Martin Luther, Diet of Worms, April 2, 1521.
*** Sola Fide, Sola Gratia, Sola Scriptura, Solus Christus, Soli Deo Gloria ***
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RE: Trust me? - 9/9/2008 2:49:44 AM
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pinopolitan
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Well said, Theophile 2. Another is when Jesus entrusted His mother to John the Apostle. My wife suggested Job.
When one thinks about this seriously, it is really profound. O what a Mighty God we serve! That faith in the doctrine of the Cross would so circumcise a sinner's heart as to make it trustworthy is sublime proof of Spiritual regeneration.
Can anybody think of any more examples?
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RE: Trust me? - 9/9/2008 10:42:19 AM
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drmark
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quote:
It depends on what you mean by "trusted". I agree with MrFribbles. The dictionary definition of trust is to rely upon or place confidence and hope in someone. God does not rely on us for His Will to be accomplished, but He certainly does give us the privelege of participating in His Sovereign plans. So from that perspective, we all should be so blessed that the Creator of the universe would place His confidence in our feeble lives.
_____________________________
Jeremiah 31:31-34. The time is NOW, fellow saints!
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RE: Trust me? - 9/10/2008 3:08:38 PM
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DougHorton
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quote:
ORIGINAL: pinopolitan
Is it legitimate for Christians to expect God to trust them in the way one who is married expects their spouse to trust them?
No. It is not the same. God trusts you because He is omniscient. He knows everything you will do and you cannot surprise Him. No human can have that degree of knowledge about another human.
However, the issue is NOT whether God trusts you, but whether you trust God. And how much you trust other people just doesn't enter the picture.
_____________________________
Doug
You may think it strange, but he never likes any assistance. When he made the world, he did not ask the angel Gabriel so much as to cool the molten matter with his wing, but he did it entirely himself. -- Spurgeon
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RE: Trust me? - 9/10/2008 3:47:27 PM
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Bluethread
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quote:
ORIGINAL: pinopolitan
Well said, Theophile 2. Another is when Jesus entrusted His mother to John the Apostle. My wife suggested Job.
When one thinks about this seriously, it is really profound. O what a Mighty God we serve! That faith in the doctrine of the Cross would so circumcise a sinner's heart as to make it trustworthy is sublime proof of Spiritual regeneration.
Can anybody think of any more examples?
This appears to be the doctrine of perfect sanctification. As a practical matter, I have problems with this. By that I mean, apart from Yeshua(Jesus), I have yet to see an example of this in personal interaction with others or in the Scriptures.
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"Show me wherein I have errored and I will hold my tongue." Iyov(Job)
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RE: Trust me? - 9/10/2008 4:26:35 PM
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drmark
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quote:
This appears to be the doctrine of perfect sanctification. I'm not familiar with this term, Bluethread. There is Christian perfection and there is entire sanctification, but what is the "doctrine of perfect sanctification"? Of course you would have "problems with practical matters" if you've never experienced said doctrine in your own life. Did Jesus not live a perfect and sanctified life as recorded in Scripture?
_____________________________
Jeremiah 31:31-34. The time is NOW, fellow saints!
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RE: Trust me? - 9/10/2008 5:02:06 PM
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DougHorton
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Yes, Jesus lived a perfect life. I think Bluethread is referring to Christians who teach that we can be perfect in our own righteousness, not Christ's imputed righteousness.
_____________________________
Doug
You may think it strange, but he never likes any assistance. When he made the world, he did not ask the angel Gabriel so much as to cool the molten matter with his wing, but he did it entirely himself. -- Spurgeon
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RE: Trust me? - 9/10/2008 6:33:20 PM
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Bluethread
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quote:
ORIGINAL: drmark
quote:
This appears to be the doctrine of perfect sanctification. I'm not familiar with this term, Bluethread. There is Christian perfection and there is entire sanctification, but what is the "doctrine of perfect sanctification"? Of course you would have "problems with practical matters" if you've never experienced said doctrine in your own life. Did Jesus not live a perfect and sanctified life as recorded in Scripture?
I did say, "apart from Yeshua(Jesus), I have yet to see . . .". I may not have used the proper title. What I meant is the idea that we live sinless lives this side of paradise. To say that we are trustworthy as Adonai requires, "Be perfect as I am perfect.", is not far from that. This, I believe, is the mark of the high calling of Adonai, that Paul says he pressed on towards.
_____________________________
"Show me wherein I have errored and I will hold my tongue." Iyov(Job)
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RE: Trust me? - 9/11/2008 11:14:54 AM
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drmark
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quote:
Yes, Jesus lived a perfect life. I think Bluethread is referring to Christians who teach that we can be perfect in our own righteousness, not Christ's imputed righteousness. There is no correct Christian doctrine that ever teaches we "can be perfect in our own righteousness". There is, however, a major difference in doctrine between those Believers who claim only imputed righteousness and those Believers who claim imputed and experience imparted righteousness. I'm still not clear how my imparted righteousness from Christ allows God to trust me in my own ability. God has confidence in me because I am able not to sin, by His grace and the power of the Holy Spirit. This has nothing to do with my being perfect in my own righteousness!
quote:
What I meant is the idea that we live sinless lives this side of paradise. We better live "sinless" lives this side of paradise! 1 John 3:4-10 makes it quite clear that those who go on sinning are NOT children of God. I don't know about you, Bluethread, but I certainly sin less since Christ's Spirit came into my heart! And God certainly does trust me to keep on perservering in the faith, by His grace and the power of the Holy Spirit - Hebr 10:35-36.
_____________________________
Jeremiah 31:31-34. The time is NOW, fellow saints!
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RE: Trust me? - 9/11/2008 5:08:18 PM
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Bluethread
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quote:
ORIGINAL: drmark
quote:
What I meant is the idea that we live sinless lives this side of paradise.
We better live "sinless" lives this side of paradise! 1 John 3:4-10 makes it quite clear that those who go on sinning are NOT children of God. I don't know about you, Bluethread, but I certainly sin less since Christ's Spirit came into my heart! And God certainly does trust me to keep on perservering in the faith, by His grace and the power of the Holy Spirit - Hebr 10:35-36.
I said sinless lives not sin less lives. That spacing is not a typo but significant. You may sin less, but I doubt that you do not sin at all.
Regarding Adonai trusting us, I am not sure it is necessary since, (Rom 8:29) "(f)or those (Adonai) foreknew he also predestined to be conformed to the likeness of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brothers."
< Message edited by Bluethread -- 9/11/2008 5:15:03 PM >
_____________________________
"Show me wherein I have errored and I will hold my tongue." Iyov(Job)
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RE: Trust me? - 9/12/2008 9:27:50 AM
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drmark
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quote:
I said sinless lives not sin less lives. That spacing is not a typo but significant. You may sin less, but I doubt that you do not sin at all. Precisely my point, Bluethread. There are grave misconceptions about the doctrine of entire sanctification and Christian perfection among most who have not experienced them. The sanctified Believer, perfected in Christ's Love, is not perfectly sinless until her/his glorification in Heaven. However, God can certainly trust us to avoid sinning by His grace and power.
_____________________________
Jeremiah 31:31-34. The time is NOW, fellow saints!
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RE: Trust me? - 9/17/2008 3:54:36 PM
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Bluethread
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quote:
ORIGINAL: drmark
quote:
I said sinless lives not sin less lives. That spacing is not a typo but significant. You may sin less, but I doubt that you do not sin at all. Precisely my point, Bluethread. There are grave misconceptions about the doctrine of entire sanctification and Christian perfection among most who have not experienced them. The sanctified Believer, perfected in Christ's Love, is not perfectly sinless until her/his glorification in Heaven. However, God can certainly trust us to avoid sinning by His grace and power.
If it is His grace and power, it isn't trust but direction.
_____________________________
"Show me wherein I have errored and I will hold my tongue." Iyov(Job)
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RE: Trust me? - 9/17/2008 4:22:46 PM
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drmark
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quote:
If it is His grace and power, it isn't trust but direction. It is still up to us to follow the direction, by His grace and power! I trust God for His part and he trusts me to do mine.
_____________________________
Jeremiah 31:31-34. The time is NOW, fellow saints!
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RE: Trust me? - 9/17/2008 7:35:50 PM
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Bluethread
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quote:
ORIGINAL: drmark
quote:
If it is His grace and power, it isn't trust but direction. It is still up to us to follow the direction, by His grace and power! I trust God for His part and he trusts me to do mine.
It is not thrust when He can take away our lives without notice. We live and breath due to His constant vigilance and grace.
_____________________________
"Show me wherein I have errored and I will hold my tongue." Iyov(Job)
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RE: Trust me? - 9/17/2008 7:44:25 PM
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drmark
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I'm sorry, but I think we are talking past one another on this exchange. Catch you later, Bluethread.
_____________________________
Jeremiah 31:31-34. The time is NOW, fellow saints!
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