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Trickle Down Economics - 10/1/2008 11:22:26 PM
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sylvan
Posts: 122
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I just love Trickle Down Economics. Corporate and personal taxes on the wealthy have been at an all time low under GWB. The executives have made sooooo much money - with awesome severance packages! How awesome is that!!!!! A million is good, but 100 million is REAL GOOD. It's just like the late 80's - huge profits for the rich - on the backs of the sorry middle class. It works great! The economy crumbles, unemployment rises, etc., etc. - and then, the middle class American wealth "Trickles Up"....it's awesome. I loved trickling up money in the last bailout under Bush 1. I LOVE CORPORATE SOCIALISM!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! IT'S AWESOME.
TO HECK WITH THE POOR, THE RICH NEED MORE MONEY!
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RE: Trickle Down Economics - 10/2/2008 6:37:11 AM
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csl7037
Posts: 1591
Joined: 3/24/2008
Status: online
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You confuse me, but maybe it's just too early. Trickle Down, Trickle up - you dislike economics in general? Just not happy either way?
Trickle Down Economics works just fine - I didn't hear so much complaining during Reagan. Maybe, just maybe, if we (Americans in general poor, middle, rich alike) had just enjoyed the economy we had instead of getting so greedy with credit, more credit, and even more and more credit and debt that any sane person would've known they couldn't handle, the economy would still be cranking along.
The only people really losing out in this mess right now are those of us who were responsible and who, if we weren't surrounded by greedy morons, we'd still be doing just fine and enjoying the blessings that come with this system when it's not abused. To claim that only the rich have abused this system is incredibly disingenuous!
And what do you call the Community Redistribution Act? Is that trickle down too? Because that's what got us here as much, if not moreso, than anything Corporate America has been doing.
Let's just be honest.
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RE: Trickle Down Economics - 10/2/2008 9:56:07 AM
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Jhud
Posts: 7865
Joined: 4/11/2005
From: Lake Wobegon
Status: offline
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quote:
I just love Trickle Down Economics. Corporate and personal taxes on the wealthy have been at an all time low under GWB. The executives have made sooooo much money - with awesome severance packages! How awesome is that!!!!! A million is good, but 100 million is REAL GOOD. It's just like the late 80's - huge profits for the rich - on the backs of the sorry middle class. It works great! The economy crumbles, unemployment rises, etc., etc. - and then, the middle class American wealth "Trickles Up"....it's awesome. I loved trickling up money in the last bailout under Bush 1. I LOVE CORPORATE SOCIALISM!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! IT'S AWESOME.
TO HECK WITH THE POOR, THE RICH NEED MORE MONEY!
I always love it how liberals conveniently ignore the '90, the period in which Enron, Worldcom, and now we discover Fannie Mae and Freddie Mac enriched strong Democratic supporters while running their very corrupt companies into the ground to the harm of millions of investors.
_____________________________
Jack
It has been said that politics is the second oldest profession. I have learned that it bears a striking resemblance to the first..
- Ronald Reagan
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RE: Trickle Down Economics - 10/2/2008 10:07:31 AM
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Dubya
Posts: 1033
Joined: 10/25/2006
From: Texas
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Jhud
quote:
I just love Trickle Down Economics. Corporate and personal taxes on the wealthy have been at an all time low under GWB. The executives have made sooooo much money - with awesome severance packages! How awesome is that!!!!! A million is good, but 100 million is REAL GOOD. It's just like the late 80's - huge profits for the rich - on the backs of the sorry middle class. It works great! The economy crumbles, unemployment rises, etc., etc. - and then, the middle class American wealth "Trickles Up"....it's awesome. I loved trickling up money in the last bailout under Bush 1. I LOVE CORPORATE SOCIALISM!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! IT'S AWESOME.
TO HECK WITH THE POOR, THE RICH NEED MORE MONEY!
I always love it how liberals conveniently ignore the '90, the period in which Enron, Worldcom, and now we discover Fannie Mae and Freddie Mac enriched strong Democratic supporters while running their very corrupt companies into the ground to the harm of millions of investors.
The executives of Enron were "perp-walked" in handcuffs on nation-wide tv and ended up serving federal sentences. When will Franklin Raines and Jim Johnson be in handcuffs? Will they ever have to repay ANY of the bonuses they received based on falsified accounting?
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RE: Trickle Down Economics - 10/2/2008 10:20:03 AM
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GroupW
Posts: 2903
Joined: 11/16/2007
From: Up in the hills of Colorado (very BIG hills...)
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Jhud
quote:
I just love Trickle Down Economics. Corporate and personal taxes on the wealthy have been at an all time low under GWB. The executives have made sooooo much money - with awesome severance packages! How awesome is that!!!!! A million is good, but 100 million is REAL GOOD. It's just like the late 80's - huge profits for the rich - on the backs of the sorry middle class. It works great! The economy crumbles, unemployment rises, etc., etc. - and then, the middle class American wealth "Trickles Up"....it's awesome. I loved trickling up money in the last bailout under Bush 1. I LOVE CORPORATE SOCIALISM!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! IT'S AWESOME.
TO HECK WITH THE POOR, THE RICH NEED MORE MONEY!
I always love it how liberals conveniently ignore the '90, the period in which Enron, Worldcom, and now we discover Fannie Mae and Freddie Mac enriched strong Democratic supporters while running their very corrupt companies into the ground to the harm of millions of investors.
For the record, according to the Federal Election Commission, Fannie and Freddie gave to each political party in roughly equal measure. How do you think they avoided tighter regulatory scrutiny no matter which party held the reins?
_____________________________
“For every problem, there is a solution that is simple, elegant and wrong.” -H.L. Mencken
"Most people would rather die than think; in fact, they do so." -Bertrand Russell
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RE: Trickle Down Economics - 10/2/2008 10:59:31 AM
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Dubya
Posts: 1033
Joined: 10/25/2006
From: Texas
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quote:
ORIGINAL: GroupW
For the record, according to the Federal Election Commission, Fannie and Freddie gave to each political party in roughly equal measure. How do you think they avoided tighter regulatory scrutiny no matter which party held the reins?
How about Franklin Raines, Jim Johnson, and Jamie Gerelick?
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RE: Trickle Down Economics - 10/2/2008 11:36:26 AM
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tracydolls
Posts: 1839
Joined: 3/30/2008
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quote:
For the record, according to the Federal Election Commission, Fannie and Freddie gave to each political party in roughly equal measure. How do you think they avoided tighter regulatory scrutiny no matter which party held the reins?
Thank you GW, they(Congress) need to ask you what to do in this mess! Even though I don't always agree with you, you always make sense!
_____________________________
Rev 3:17 Because thou sayest, I am rich, and increased with goods, and have need of nothing; and knowest not that thou art wretched, and miserable, and poor, and blind, and naked:
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RE: Trickle Down Economics - 10/2/2008 11:49:42 AM
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Dubya
Posts: 1033
Joined: 10/25/2006
From: Texas
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: tracydolls
quote:
For the record, according to the Federal Election Commission, Fannie and Freddie gave to each political party in roughly equal measure. How do you think they avoided tighter regulatory scrutiny no matter which party held the reins?
Thank you GW, they(Congress) need to ask you what to do in this mess! Even though I don't always agree with you, you always make sense!
I would simply repeat my question: How about Franklin Raines, Jim Johnson, and Jamie Gerelick? These are DEMOCRAT operatives who profitted in the MILLIONS... not thousands like the contributions received be members of Congress.
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RE: Trickle Down Economics - 10/2/2008 3:28:21 PM
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GroupW
Posts: 2903
Joined: 11/16/2007
From: Up in the hills of Colorado (very BIG hills...)
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Dubya
quote:
ORIGINAL: tracydolls
quote:
For the record, according to the Federal Election Commission, Fannie and Freddie gave to each political party in roughly equal measure. How do you think they avoided tighter regulatory scrutiny no matter which party held the reins?
Thank you GW, they(Congress) need to ask you what to do in this mess! Even though I don't always agree with you, you always make sense!
I would simply repeat my question: How about Franklin Raines, Jim Johnson, and Jamie Gerelick? These are DEMOCRAT operatives who profitted in the MILLIONS... not thousands like the contributions received be members of Congress.
I'm not understanding exactly what your question is. Raines, Johnson, et al all had tremendous political swing although it's difficult to say how much was due to political contributions and how much due to the GSE's sheer size and economic weight. No question they exercised influence far beyond what they should have and got paid quite well in the process.
My wife routinely wonders why I haven't messed up like they have - she's wishing I'd do a better job of being a failure so I could be paid half as well as those guys.
If your question is will these guys be prosecuted? Very possibly. The only thing you can say definitively right now is that there will be several investigations and some heads will definitely fall. These heads in particular? Who knows.
_____________________________
“For every problem, there is a solution that is simple, elegant and wrong.” -H.L. Mencken
"Most people would rather die than think; in fact, they do so." -Bertrand Russell
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RE: Trickle Down Economics - 10/2/2008 9:04:28 PM
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rlj
Posts: 2132
Joined: 4/14/2005
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quote:
Please explain to us how GWB created the situation where Franklin Raines could cook the books of Freddie Mac and come out with millions leaving the company to fail?
After you answer GroupW. Come to think of it is there anything wrong even once since Jan. 20th that Dubya was even responsible for? Like maybe leaving a screen door open in the White House and some little kid getting a skeeter bite? There is much more to this mess than Raines. If you're referring to CRA, in my old hometown my ward leads that city in foreclosures. That ward is 80% white and households with 2 working adults make up the biggest demographic of those who have lost their homes. I'm trying to reconcile CRA and minority investment with that scenario. Am I missing something?
quote:
Maybe, just maybe, if we (Americans in general poor, middle, rich alike) had just enjoyed the economy we had instead of getting so greedy with credit, more credit, and even more and more credit and debt that any sane person would've known they couldn't handle, the economy would still be cranking along.
I missed this but there were many economists and others who said for the last 10 to 12 years that there is absolutely too much credit. The Dubya economy was built on the same smoke and mirrors model that the dotcom was built on. The proof is in the 800 billion dollar bailout.
_____________________________
-Roger
This is who I'm voting for. He is from the same party I voted for last time. This is consistent with my belief in the failure of the two party system and my disgust with it.
http://www.baldwin08.com/#
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RE: Trickle Down Economics - 10/3/2008 10:57:35 AM
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GroupW
Posts: 2903
Joined: 11/16/2007
From: Up in the hills of Colorado (very BIG hills...)
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: rlj
There is much more to this mess than Raines. If you're referring to CRA, in my old hometown my ward leads that city in foreclosures. That ward is 80% white and households with 2 working adults make up the biggest demographic of those who have lost their homes. I'm trying to reconcile CRA and minority investment with that scenario. Am I missing something?
Nope. You're not missing anything at all - CRA isn't one of the primary causes in this crisis. Unless those 80% white, 2 earner households could be considered either minority or low-income, CRA wouldn't seem to be a factor in that ward.
_____________________________
“For every problem, there is a solution that is simple, elegant and wrong.” -H.L. Mencken
"Most people would rather die than think; in fact, they do so." -Bertrand Russell
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RE: Trickle Down Economics - 10/3/2008 11:12:34 AM
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tracydolls
Posts: 1839
Joined: 3/30/2008
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quote:
My wife routinely wonders why I haven't messed up like they have - she's wishing I'd do a better job of being a failure so I could be paid half as well as those guys.
Your reward is in Heaven.
and the one people thought they had here went poof!
GW, do you think this bailout package will stop the bleeding? For awhile?
I understand credit crunch between banks and how it affects business.
But if we give them the money, don't they go right back to crazy credit?
Also I live in a very tough neighborhood. A few blocks over is a very upscale neighborhood, big houses, (I take my walk thru there) those houses are on the chopping blocks also. ALOT of them
_____________________________
Rev 3:17 Because thou sayest, I am rich, and increased with goods, and have need of nothing; and knowest not that thou art wretched, and miserable, and poor, and blind, and naked:
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RE: Trickle Down Economics - 10/5/2008 3:18:10 PM
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JustaChristian
Posts: 49
Joined: 5/20/2005
Status: offline
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There are thieves with (D)s and with (R)s behind thier politics. What brought us here, though, is throwing away the lessons we learned in the 20s, 30s, and 40s. Just like we have laws to keep people from killing and physically stealing, we made laws to limit what crooks could do and regulated the financial industry.
Now, there was an ideology that allowed back in the crooks through new "instruments" without regulation, and through removing time tried regulations. And that was done, primarily, by those with an (R) beginning with Reagan.
Every party makes mistakes, but if we are going to learn from this we need to call it what it is, and right wing economic ideology doesn't work. In fact it has almost destroyed the economic base of the country.
There is a lot of pride in this fight. It would be much better to admit what works and does not. And move ahead.
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RE: Trickle Down Economics - 10/5/2008 5:17:28 PM
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Dubya
Posts: 1033
Joined: 10/25/2006
From: Texas
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: JustaChristian
There are thieves with (D)s and with (R)s behind thier politics. What brought us here, though, is throwing away the lessons we learned in the 20s, 30s, and 40s. Just like we have laws to keep people from killing and physically stealing, we made laws to limit what crooks could do and regulated the financial industry.
Now, there was an ideology that allowed back in the crooks through new "instruments" without regulation, and through removing time tried regulations. And that was done, primarily, by those with an (R) beginning with Reagan.
Every party makes mistakes, but if we are going to learn from this we need to call it what it is, and right wing economic ideology doesn't work. In fact it has almost destroyed the economic base of the country.
There is a lot of pride in this fight. It would be much better to admit what works and does not. And move ahead.
No, actually it goes back to the CRA and the Carter years. (He had a (D) after his name, by the way  )
Do you realize how many times GWB has called for greater oversight of Fannie/Freddie?
He has been blocked every time by Democrats in the House and Senate. Now the same Dems want to blame Republicans?... simply absurd.
And by the way JustaChristian, you said in another thread how Christians should not be making unsubstantiated claims. So why are you doing so?
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RE: Trickle Down Economics - 10/5/2008 6:01:01 PM
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litfire2000
Posts: 182
Joined: 7/6/2008
Status: offline
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i think there's plenty of blame to go around on both sides of the political aisle on this one...but the responsibility isn't likely to be shouldered by either...and the ones giving the credit as well as the ones taking the credit seem to have been caught up in and old thing called greed...let's not play the blame game, let's get together and do the best we can to straighten this thing out and establish some oversight to prevent a repeat
_____________________________
Ps. 122:6 Pray for the peace of Jerusalem
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RE: Trickle Down Economics - 10/5/2008 6:05:00 PM
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Dubya
Posts: 1033
Joined: 10/25/2006
From: Texas
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: litfire2000
i think there's plenty of blame to go around on both sides of the political aisle on this one...but the responsibility isn't likely to be shouldered by either...and the ones giving the credit as well as the ones taking the credit seem to have been caught up in and old thing called greed...let's not play the blame game, let's get together and do the best we can to straighten this thing out and establish some oversight to prevent a repeat
I am all for getting the mess resolved but it really galls me to listen to Barney Frank and Chris Dodd and Nancy Pelosi try to dump all the blame on the Republicans in general and George W Bush in particular. Their ranting seems to impact certain airheads who don't know how to really research the facts, like a certain previous poster.
Yes, there is enough blame to go around... but please, don't expect us to be silent when the real crooks are pointing their fingers.
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RE: Trickle Down Economics - 10/5/2008 8:22:18 PM
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JustaChristian
Posts: 49
Joined: 5/20/2005
Status: offline
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Give me a break Dubya and stop attacking me. You can say your opinion without a reference every sentence and then you want to put me down saying my knowledge is less valuable than yours.
I will never be able to place as much text as you on this board, quite frankly, because I refuse to spend as much time here as you do. Please ignore my comments if you like. You have attacked me personally twice. You show a lack of respect my friend.
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RE: Trickle Down Economics - 10/5/2008 11:18:01 PM
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Dubya
Posts: 1033
Joined: 10/25/2006
From: Texas
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: JustaChristian
Give me a break Dubya and stop attacking me. You can say your opinion without a reference every sentence and then you want to put me down saying my knowledge is less valuable than yours.
I will never be able to place as much text as you on this board, quite frankly, because I refuse to spend as much time here as you do. Please ignore my comments if you like. You have attacked me personally twice. You show a lack of respect my friend.
I would like to extend an olive branch. I apologize for showing a lack of respect. Your opinions are certainly as valuable as mine. I did not intend for my replies to be taken personally.
When I see what I believe to be unjustified attacks or accusations against those I support I guess I feel I must respond forcefully. I did not mean to direct any insult at you personally, although after re-reading my posts I can see how you might feel that way...
I can certainly understanad if you don't have time to research how we got into this mess. I was simply trying to point out that although the Democrats want to blame GWB and the Republicans, the real history of how we got there shows that certain Democrats had their fingers all over this.
It is easy to say "Republicans favor no regulations" and many will believe that. In many areas, that is true. But it is a generalization which clearly does not apply in this case. GWB has been pointing out repeatedly that Fannie and Freddie needed stronger oversight. It has been the Democrats in the House and Senate who have consistently opposed that. In fact, as recently as 2 years ago Barnie Frank and Maxine Waters were raving about how great Fannie and Freddie were being run and they were accusing the regulator who brought certain accounting irregularities to light of trying to defame Franklin Raines. All of this can be found in recordings on U-Tube.
I apologize for making my posts look like I was attacking you.
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RE: Trickle Down Economics - 10/6/2008 12:19:18 AM
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backrowbaptist
Posts: 380
Joined: 6/7/2008
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Allow me to turn over the coin on your OP. sylvan
I just love bigger Government. Corporate and personal taxes on the wealthy will be at an all time high under BHO and the Dems. The congressmen have wasted sooooo much money - with awesome lack of accountability! How awesome is that!!!!! A million is good, but 700 billion is REAL GOOD. It's just like the late 70's - huge profits for the government - on the backs of the sorry achievers. It works great! Personal freedoms crumble, inflation rises, etc., etc. - and then, the middle class American spirit "Dries Up"....it's awesome. I loved paying high taxes in the mailaise under Carter. I LOVE BIG GOVERNMENT!!!!!!!!!!!!!! IT'S AWESOME.
TO HECK WITH YOUR MONEY, THE GOVERNMENT NEEDS IT MORE!
_____________________________
Any of this gettin' through to you, son?
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RE: Trickle Down Economics - 10/6/2008 3:00:52 AM
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47.samuel
Posts: 44
Joined: 9/24/2008
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Jhud
quote:
I just love Trickle Down Economics. Corporate and personal taxes on the wealthy have been at an all time low under GWB. The executives have made sooooo much money - with awesome severance packages! How awesome is that!!!!! A million is good, but 100 million is REAL GOOD. It's just like the late 80's - huge profits for the rich - on the backs of the sorry middle class. It works great! The economy crumbles, unemployment rises, etc., etc. - and then, the middle class American wealth "Trickles Up"....it's awesome. I loved trickling up money in the last bailout under Bush 1. I LOVE CORPORATE SOCIALISM!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! IT'S AWESOME.
TO HECK WITH THE POOR, THE RICH NEED MORE MONEY!
I always love it how liberals conveniently ignore the '90, the period in which Enron, Worldcom, and now we discover Fannie Mae and Freddie Mac enriched strong Democratic supporters while running their very corrupt companies into the ground to the harm of millions of investors.
*************************************************************
quote:
"We have sort of become a nation of whiners. You just hear this constant whining, complaining about a loss of competitiveness."
(Phil Gramm)
Perhaps it just "slipped" Jhud's memory that Phil Gramm, John McCain's former co-chair and senior economic advisor, co-sponsored the Commodity Futures Modernization Act of 2000 which contained the famous/infamous "Enron loophole"
I'm sure Jhud was not "conveniently ignor(ing)" the fact that Phil's wife, Wendy Lee Gramm, was also a member of Enron's board of directors who were "running their very corrupt companies into the ground to the harm of millions of investors."
As for John McCain's current campaign manager, Rick Davis led the Homeownership Alliance for 5 years (2000 to 2005), an "advocacy group" for Fannie Mae and Freddie Mac.
Davis was paid over $30 000 per month
Davis then continued to serve as a paid consultant ($15 000/month) for Freddie Mac from the end of 2005 until it was taken over by the federal government on September 8, 2008 - at which his "expert advice" was no longer deemed necessary.
quote:
"The only thing that Freddie Mac officials could recall Davis doing for the company, the Times said, was speaking at an October 2006 forum attended by midlevel and senior executives who contributed to Freddie PAC, the company’s political action committee."
Rick Davis had been on the Freddie Mac "payroll" for the entire period he has managed the McCain Campaign (until September, 2008) - a situation some suspicious "Democratic supporters" might consider a blatant conflict of interests.
I'm sure Jhud was going to inform you of all these minor "Republican" discrepencies - so I saved him/her the time and effort.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Phil_Gramm
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rick_Davis_(politics)
< Message edited by 47.samuel -- 10/6/2008 4:10:33 AM >
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RE: Trickle Down Economics - 10/6/2008 6:19:02 AM
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rlj
Posts: 2132
Joined: 4/14/2005
Status: offline
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quote:
I just love bigger Government. Corporate and personal taxes on the wealthy will be at an all time high under BHO and the Dems. The congressmen have wasted sooooo much money - with awesome lack of accountability! How awesome is that!!!!! A million is good, but 700 billion is REAL GOOD. It's just like the late 70's - huge profits for the government - on the backs of the sorry achievers. It works great! Personal freedoms crumble, inflation rises, etc., etc. - and then, the middle class American spirit "Dries Up"....it's awesome. I loved paying high taxes in the mailaise under Carter. I LOVE BIG GOVERNMENT!!!!!!!!!!!!!! IT'S AWESOME.
TO HECK WITH YOUR MONEY, THE GOVERNMENT NEEDS IT MORE!
So how do we pay for that $700,000,000,000 Foghorn? With tax cuts? If taxes are so bad just eliminate them entirely then the federal government will be loaded with cash. :D
_____________________________
-Roger
This is who I'm voting for. He is from the same party I voted for last time. This is consistent with my belief in the failure of the two party system and my disgust with it.
http://www.baldwin08.com/#
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RE: Trickle Down Economics - 10/6/2008 6:23:35 AM
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rlj
Posts: 2132
Joined: 4/14/2005
Status: offline
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quote:
Do you realize how many times GWB has called for greater oversight of Fannie/Freddie?
He has been blocked every time by Democrats in the House and Senate. Now the same Dems want to blame Republicans?... simply absurd.
How hard can it possibly be to do anything when you have a Republican President, a Republican House and a Republican Senate? The Republicans had to have a majority in the 2 committees and they should have chaired both. Please give some examples of the Senate Democrats filibustering Fannie/Freddie oversight. If they didn't then there was complicity amongst Republicans also.
Never mind I guess. If you are a liberal and want Democrats to make things more liberal they do a real good job. If your a Republican and expect Republicans to get something done that's just too bad because it won't happen.
_____________________________
-Roger
This is who I'm voting for. He is from the same party I voted for last time. This is consistent with my belief in the failure of the two party system and my disgust with it.
http://www.baldwin08.com/#
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RE: Trickle Down Economics - 10/6/2008 9:53:28 AM
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_jjp_
Posts: 483
Joined: 10/25/2007
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: rlj
So how do we pay for that $700,000,000,000 Foghorn? With tax cuts?
How about spending cuts. I know it is a silly notion in this gimme gimme world where the inability to afford something should stop people from buying but doesn't. The government has overspent it's paychecks no matter how much they make so expecting any raise in taxes to make any difference at all it fantasy.
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