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To believe or not to believe, that is the question - 8/1/2008 2:32:52 AM
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dalton
Posts: 2
Joined: 9/9/2005
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I am twenty-three year old student at a Christian college with one semester left until I graduate. At one time I could call myself a Christian with absolute confidence. I can't say the same now. The more I learned, the harder it became to maintain faith. On an intellectual level I agree wholeheartedly with the message of the life of Jesus and the basic mission statement of the Christian faith: love. I see the value of the faith and the wisdom contained in the Bible, but there is a problem. I no longer find myself able to believe in the more fantastical (Please excuse the word choice. I mean no offence in any way. I am simply intending to express my situation and it is the only word I could think to describe how I feel.) elements of the faith: virgin birth; resurrection; etc.
I believe I know where the base of this problem lies. I am no longer able to believe the Bible is infallible. Although I still find wisdom among its pages, I can not seperate the authors, and their individual biases, from the message contained within. The way I cannot help but look at it is as a collection of biased eyewitness, in the case of Matthew and John, at best and second hand accounts, Mark and Luke, at worst. This is the evidence I have and I feel that I can no longer rely on it. This breaks my heart. I see others rejoice and find peace in their faith and I no longer can.
Once again I am not trying to argue my opinion or change view points here, I am trying to regain my faith. This is a cry for help. Help open my mind to other ways of looking at my situation. Faith isn't rational and that is my problem. I want to be there, but I cannot step out on that ledge without a reason. I stopped calling myself a Christian about three and a half years ago because I can't lie. I believe it is an insult to the faith to not approach it genuinely. Faith to me isn't a shallow thing and it isn't something that you approach halfway. Clichés don't work for me. Faith has to be built on more than a clever phrase stiched on a pillow. Please help me get past this issue.
-Dalton
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RE: To believe or not to believe, that is the question - 8/1/2008 5:30:16 AM
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Liveloved
Posts: 1821
Status: offline
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quote:
I am twenty-three year old student at a Christian college with one semester left until I graduate. At one time I could call myself a Christian with absolute confidence. I can't say the same now. The more I learned, the harder it became to maintain faith. On an intellectual level I agree wholeheartedly with the message of the life of Jesus and the basic mission statement of the Christian faith: love. I see the value of the faith and the wisdom contained in the Bible, but there is a problem. I no longer find myself able to believe in the more fantastical (Please excuse the word choice. I mean no offence in any way. I am simply intending to express my situation and it is the only word I could think to describe how I feel.) elements of the faith: virgin birth; resurrection; etc.
I believe I know where the base of this problem lies. I am no longer able to believe the Bible is infallible. Although I still find wisdom among its pages, I can not seperate the authors, and their individual biases, from the message contained within. The way I cannot help but look at it is as a collection of biased eyewitness, in the case of Matthew and John, at best and second hand accounts, Mark and Luke, at worst. This is the evidence I have and I feel that I can no longer rely on it. This breaks my heart. I see others rejoice and find peace in their faith and I no longer can.
Once again I am not trying to argue my opinion or change view points here, I am trying to regain my faith. This is a cry for help. Help open my mind to other ways of looking at my situation. Faith isn't rational and that is my problem. I want to be there, but I cannot step out on that ledge without a reason. I stopped calling myself a Christian about three and a half years ago because I can't lie. I believe it is an insult to the faith to not approach it genuinely. Faith to me isn't a shallow thing and it isn't something that you approach halfway. Clichés don't work for me. Faith has to be built on more than a clever phrase stiched on a pillow. Please help me get past this issue.
-Dalton
Wow, what honesty, Dalton! Bless you! The Lord loves this kind of honesty, this kind of truthfulness. You are in a very good place. When we are truthful about where we are, our true heart condition, not pretending, not going through the motions, but honestly confessing our need, the Lord hears and will meet us in the need.
So I pray, dear Lord, that You hear Dalton's cries for help and that You come to his aid. He needs to know the reality of You, Jesus. He knows about You. But he needs to touch the hem of Your garment and receive the healing power and flow that comes directly from You, Jesus. He needs Your touch on his life, in a personal way, that changes him from the inside out. Make Dalton a new creation, Lord, by Your marvelous (and I'll use your word) fantastical self, Lord! Reveal to him why Paul and Peter, Matthew and John knew You and their knowing was unique and individual yet true because it was directly from You. Don't let this young man get away from You, Lord. Bring him to the true knowledge of Yourself, Jesus. Satisfy his need and the hunger that is within him. Bless him mightily, Lord, as he seeks and searches for You. In Your wonderworking power and name, I pray Lord Jesus for Dalton!
Bless you dear brother. Jesus will answer your heart's cry! LL
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RE: To believe or not to believe, that is the question - 8/1/2008 5:53:52 AM
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conrack50
Posts: 794
Joined: 4/23/2005
From: 200 N. Bryan Ave. Shawnee, Ok 74801
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Our Heavenly Father,
We ask that you let Dalton hear your wonderful voice.
We ask that he feel your presence and your touch.
We ask that you give him knowledge that comes from only you.
We ask that he know that you are God, the Alpha and Omega.
We ask this in Jesus Name, Amen
_____________________________
Want to make some extra money?
No quotas,you're the boss.
Come take a look.
http://www.connieloubarnes.com
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RE: To believe or not to believe, that is the question - 8/1/2008 8:01:11 AM
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mvic
Posts: 1537
Joined: 1/17/2008
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Hi Dalton and welcome to the Forum.
You seem to me an intelligent and thoughtful person. You were a Christian and you now have doubts. We've all been there and got the T-shirt.
Doubts are essential in order to question our relationship with God. We doubt certain things taught us or read in the Bible; we question, and the answers we find help strengthen our Faith.
Of course, too much doubt is dangerous because it can lead us astray altogether. But you know that.
I won't try to convince you with cliches and slogans. You're far too bright for that!
I'll agree with you about the Bible in that it was written at a time when they did not have the benefit of sound and video recorders. So what is written there is the result of interviews, sometimes years after the events in question, relying on memory and second-hand hearsay. So the accuracy would not exactly stand up as evidence in a modern Court.
That said: the main message is inspired by God. The basic message is true - albeit difficult or impossible to prove.
The Bible is essentially a book of Faith. We may question all or parts of it until the cows come home (as they say in my part of the world) but eventually we have to either believe it in blind Faith or to dismiss it.
That's our free choice.
I believe in the Virgin Birth, the Resurrection etc ... But I have no proof that would satisfy you or anyone else. I clearly cannot convince you of these facts.
Believing is something you should do for yourself.
You're sending a "cry for help". Don't address that to us. Address it to God.
Say to Him, in your own words, you'd like to believe but somehow you can't. Your intellect is putting barriers in the way. Ask Him to help you believe. You've already taken the first step by writing here. So your intentions are sound. Follow them up by seeking God's help.
Look up this story: "I believe, Lord; help my unbelief" Mark 9:24.
In it, a man whose son was ill believed that Jesus could heal him, but he still had some doubts. So you're not the first one to have doubts.
Join a Bible Study group from which you can learn at your own pace; and hopefully, eventually, regain your Faith.
God bless you. I'm praying for you.
_____________________________
Christian words of comfort at http://www.holyvisions.co.uk
Welcome to my Blog
MEI VITA INDICO CHRISTUS
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RE: To believe or not to believe, that is the question - 8/1/2008 9:31:44 AM
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URForgiven
Posts: 1071
Joined: 3/22/2008
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: dalton
I am twenty-three year old student at a Christian college with one semester left until I graduate. At one time I could call myself a Christian with absolute confidence. I can't say the same now. The more I learned, the harder it became to maintain faith. On an intellectual level I agree wholeheartedly with the message of the life of Jesus and the basic mission statement of the Christian faith: love. I see the value of the faith and the wisdom contained in the Bible, but there is a problem. I no longer find myself able to believe in the more fantastical (Please excuse the word choice. I mean no offence in any way. I am simply intending to express my situation and it is the only word I could think to describe how I feel.) elements of the faith: virgin birth; resurrection; etc.
I believe I know where the base of this problem lies. I am no longer able to believe the Bible is infallible. Although I still find wisdom among its pages, I can not seperate the authors, and their individual biases, from the message contained within. The way I cannot help but look at it is as a collection of biased eyewitness, in the case of Matthew and John, at best and second hand accounts, Mark and Luke, at worst. This is the evidence I have and I feel that I can no longer rely on it. This breaks my heart. I see others rejoice and find peace in their faith and I no longer can.
Once again I am not trying to argue my opinion or change view points here, I am trying to regain my faith. This is a cry for help. Help open my mind to other ways of looking at my situation. Faith isn't rational and that is my problem. I want to be there, but I cannot step out on that ledge without a reason. I stopped calling myself a Christian about three and a half years ago because I can't lie. I believe it is an insult to the faith to not approach it genuinely. Faith to me isn't a shallow thing and it isn't something that you approach halfway. Clichés don't work for me. Faith has to be built on more than a clever phrase stiched on a pillow. Please help me get past this issue.
-Dalton
In other words about the time you went out on your own, when you went off to college, you began to have doubts, isn't that right?
We all come to Jesus on our own. No one else can do it for us. So, to realize the reality of what you believe, and not what someone else has told you to believe, is the beginning of living in truth. I wish I could wave a magic wand and just allow you to see the reality of Christ, but I cannot. That is something that only Christ can do. The fact that you say you desire to have the faith to believe shows that you are already open to the truth...and Christ is Truth.
Whether the Bible is infallible or not is not the issue, that is merely a smoke screen. There have been many intellectuals who have began in earnest to set out and disprove to the Bible, only to end up being the loudest proponents of it's validity. C. S. Lewis being the most prominent (you may want to read him if you haven't already).
But the real issue is Jesus Christ isn't it? It is Him in whom we place our trust as Christians, and it is He who is the object of our faith.
I never had a problem believing there was a God, or that Jesus Christ was who He said He was and is. When I was about your age I simply didn't want what I knew it meant to truly believe in Christ. To be honest, there was simply too much sinning I wanted to do before I gave it all up. My attitude was, that will be fine when I am older, but right now, there is too much fun I want to have. My attitude was..."later, man."
And you know what? God honored that. So for many years I tried all the world had to offer, everything they say will make you happy and fulfilled...and some time later I found myself on the floor pleading with a God I knew was there, but that I simply had no use for, to please come and save me...to please save me from myself.
And He did.
He came to me and He said..."It's later, man." And I had to agree. And I finally found that for which I had always been looking. He filled that infinite vacuum within me that I had been trying to fill with everything but Him.
And He gave me a new Bible. The Bible, for the first time, truly made sense.
Am I saying this is the best way? Absolutely not. I would trade all those years without Jesus in a heartbeat for just one more day with Him. That's why I am telling you this. I know what a life lived without Jesus is like, and I know what a life lived with Jesus is like. And the truth is that without Jesus there is no life, neither here in the physical world nor in the the world to come. Without Jesus, we are all just killing time...
Peace
< Message edited by URForgiven -- 8/1/2008 9:38:31 AM >
_____________________________
"Are you so foolish? After beginning with the Spirit,
are you now trying to attain your goal by human effort?" Galatians 3:3
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RE: To believe or not to believe, that is the question - 8/1/2008 12:12:27 PM
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CoachSteve
Posts: 71
Joined: 5/26/2008
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Dalton, welcome, I am having doubts as well about my salvation, and beliefs right now. A pastor at my church gave me a book to read, called The Case for Christ: A Journalist's Personal Investigation of the Evidence for Jesus, written by Lee Strobel.
it was written by an atheist out to prove that Christ couldn't be who He claimed to be, God. by the end of his resarch the author was a born again Christian by all the evidence that has been produced, as well as all the people he spoke to on the subject. I am in the middle of reading it and it has brought to light a lot of things. that is just my opinion.
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RE: To believe or not to believe, that is the question - 8/1/2008 12:33:37 PM
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truthrevealed
Posts: 310
Joined: 12/6/2007
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dalton, I echo this sentiment.......WOW!!!! What an impassioned and forthright post. I can not explain to others WHY I believe in the infallability of God's word. I can very much sympathize and understand those who claim that the things I believe are........outrageous, at best(the virgin birth, Jeus departing in a cloud and returning in the same fashion etc. etc.). Yet, with my whole heart I believe what I cannot adequtely explain. I believe things that I've never witnessed, yet God requires that I BE a witness for His glory.
How can it be explained other than God has done something so wondeful TO me and IN me that causes me to believe in the One whom He has sent. Don't try to figure it out.....I think God can be found in the simple child-like faith that says, "God I may not understand, but help me to BELIEVE."
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RE: To believe or not to believe, that is the question - 8/1/2008 1:18:59 PM
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tapestry
Posts: 181
Joined: 8/19/2005
From: Ontario, Canada
Status: offline
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quote:
Faith isn't rational and that is my problem.
You are 100% right on with this statement. Faith is not rational, that is why it is called "faith"
You have a lot of faith just to live everyday. Faith that the other driver will stay on their side of the road. Faith that the chair you are about to sit on will hold you. Faith that there will be oxygen in the air you breath to keep you alive, and many many other examples every day. You would go crazy trying to rationalise your faith in all these things. Yet, it is there, with out question, it is there. Do not make the mistake of thinking you must "feel" something in order to have faith. Do you feel anything to have faith in the other examples I listed here? No, you just have it.
In your heart you know that Jesus is who He says He is. You know that He loves you and died for you that you may have eternal life. He holds you in the palm of His hand.
_____________________________
Joshua 24:15 B
..."As for me and my house, we will serve the Lord."
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RE: To believe or not to believe, that is the question - 8/1/2008 1:38:05 PM
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Kath
Posts: 17213
Joined: 2/28/2005
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You started a similar thread about a year ago. I take it things have not changed for you. Did you take any of the suggestions from last year to heart?
_____________________________
"It's going to be bad around here when the cows come home to roost."
Dilbert's TRUE QUOTES FROM INDUHVIDUALS
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RE: To believe or not to believe, that is the question - 8/1/2008 2:58:45 PM
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small_creation
Posts: 336
Joined: 10/30/2007
From: midwest
Status: online
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Dalton, I have the very same problem. You are very good at presenting your thoughts to others. Better than I.
I have problems with the Bible, too. I believe the Bible to be the inspired Word of God, not the exact words God would use Himself. Mans' bias are there. Centuries of reinterpretations have changed the context to some extent, I have to believe.
But I still consider it to be the benchmark for good living, one that is pleasing to our God.
I believe in the virgin birth, in Christ's resurrection, in His sacrifice for our sins. I really believe that. It's not so hard for me when I look out at mother nature and see other miracles and astonishing things beyond my comprehension.
God's understanding is not our understanding, and my ignorance in spiritual matters is as immense as the ocean.
I just choose to believe. I love God, I worship Him, I try to be obedient and humble and to accept the gifts he's given me.
The longer I think about Christianity and following Jesus, the more I follow the KISS approach -- Keep It Simple, Stupid.
I think these forums can frustrate me because the Bible tends to be overintellectualized. I follow some general tenets of the Bible. For example, 1) Do unto others as you would have done to yourself, 2) Seek the fruits of kindness, compassion, patience, etc... 3) Praise God and give Him thanks in all.
The things the Bible teaches are not hard to comprehend, just easy to screw up continually in this sin-laden world.
One of my favorite verses in the Bible is this one: Be still and know that I am God -- James, somewhere
Peace to you.
j
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RE: To believe or not to believe, that is the question - 8/1/2008 4:13:59 PM
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terryjohn
Posts: 457
Joined: 3/23/2007
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Praise God men cannot come to the Father by there own efforts and learning. God does us all a favour by resisting our own efforts at gaining faith, peace and righteousness. All our efforts are doomed to fail as He Himself has already determined they should least any man have anything to boast of.
I too have studied scriptues but the issue was never to study the writers but to see Him to whom they all confessed was the Son of the living God. I care nothing for secular study of words and their form for I have seen this Christ and that makes a world of difference. In the end we do not have to agree with dogmatic religious statments but rather fall in love with Christ. Having done this it is all joy to see faith in Him radically change the lives of millions. You need to fall in love with this Christ for to do so is to know Him and to know Him is to love Him. You can say you know Christ or you can say you have read about Christ but never suggest the two mean the same thing. Lean not on you own understanding for you have not created God in your own image.
Real faith confounds and scares men.
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RE: To believe or not to believe, that is the question - 8/1/2008 4:27:42 PM
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deermousie
Posts: 1849
Joined: 9/26/2007
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I am impressed with your honesty and heart-cry, Dalton.
If I hadn't seen that you are in a Christian college, it could have been another "typical secular college that is doing everything it can to tear down Christianity and is lying through its teeth" issue. I guess there are colleges calling themselves Christian that are spouting the same old same old.
A person or group of people who hate God can't attack God directly, but they can mess over the Christians, and the best way to do that is to make the Bible look like a fake (or the resurrection look like a hoax). There are several mainline denominations where the Gospel is rarely heard if at all anymore, and other "worthy ideas" are the main focus. Smell the sulfur; it's hellish.
What this is is a spiritual battle. Faith is under attack, and often it's by the steady eroding of the tenenants of Scripture and the authority of Scripture.
If I were you, I'd make a list of all the things that bother me. Then go research them independent of the insinuations of the school you're going to (because you already know where that is going... you want to find out the other side of the story). Find some good sources of information and dig deep.
Are you good in Greek? Get a copy of the the New Testament from a good manuscript and dig. What do scholars (who aren't pushing "it's all nonsense") saying counter to what you've been hearing? Get both sides of the coin.
If you aren't good in Greek, you can dig it out with a Vine's "Expository Dictionary of New Testament Words" for starters. Look for other good references (you may have them already). It will take you longer but you can do this.
The enemy of our souls is busy as long as we draw breath, and he's a liar and a murderer. He is lying to you and wants to kill your faith. Go to war, Christian. May God bless you! I am praying for you today,
_____________________________
Want to know where a certain word or phrase in the Bible is found? www.biblegateway.com Yay!
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RE: To believe or not to believe, that is the question - 8/2/2008 12:28:02 AM
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dalton
Posts: 2
Joined: 9/9/2005
Status: offline
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I can't exactly say that the problem is the fault of the school or its profs. The primary teacher I had in my religion classes is a man of great faith and integrity. He teaches with more of an emphasis on the history and social/political issues that gave birth to the Christian faith. His goal is to broaden horizons, not to destroy faith. The problem isn't what he taught me, but how I realign perspectives based on these new ideas. I trust him.
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RE: To believe or not to believe, that is the question - 8/2/2008 12:39:34 AM
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small_creation
Posts: 336
Joined: 10/30/2007
From: midwest
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Then trust him enough to tell him what you've written here.
j
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