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The early Church and American Ideals - 10/10/2008 8:18:22 PM
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chriscb
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1. Acts 2:44
Now all who believed were together, and had all things in common,
2. Acts 4:32
Now the multitude of those who believed were of one heart and one soul; neither did anyone say that any of the things he possessed was his own, but they had all things in common.
Do you think the early church's apparent communism (or would it be communalism?) would go against our American ideals, such as being self-reliant and anti-communism (ala Reagan)?
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RE: The early Church and American Ideals - 10/11/2008 5:22:40 AM
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FurGodWurLivin
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Considering the extreme ostracization of the early Christians, we are comparing apples and oranges. As an American Christian, I give rides to people who don't have cars when I can, I give money away, I share my food... and I'm a Republican, no less.
That being said, the "See a need, fill a need" mentality of the early church is one that we should have now... but that doesn't make Capitalism of the devil. Rather, it is because having posessions in common as a choice that makes it such a powerful statement.
Adam
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RE: The early Church and American Ideals - 10/11/2008 5:23:51 AM
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3cappuccinosmom
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Communism is a secular philosophy, and generally forces "fair distribution" (ha, ha, ha!  ) on people.
My family was part of a cult that took this verse as it's proof-text and basis. At this point, I think they viewed it wrong. I do not believe that the Early Church had leaders who said "OK, bring all your assets to us and we will warehouse them and redistribute them fairly". The Ananias and Sapphira story, for isntance, indicates that they had personal property and were free to keep it or keep the profits from the sale--it wasn' their ownership that got them killed, but their self-promoting lie that did the trick.
Ultimately, what is "mine" is really God's, which means I don't hold tightly to it and I feel free (even compelled) to share with others. I think what we have in America is generally a result of the peace and prosperity we've enjoyed, we've developed a complacency about how we use what God has given us and taking care of the needs of others. We also (because of the peace and prosperity we've enjoyed) developed some cultural traits that make it difficult for us to open our homes to strangers or show the kind of hospitality that you might find in other cultures. If you go to areas where Christians are severely persecuted, you will see "what's mine is yours" a lot more. Not that individuals give up personal property, but that they are willing to share it to the point of sacrifice with their brothers and sisters who are more needy than they. What I see in the NT is that believers opened their homes to each other, provided for those that were called into ministries which required travelling light, and were so unattached to their physical wealth and health that they were willing to take in refugees and abandoned babies, and care for the sick whom everyone else had abandoned, and make sure that the widows and orphans among themselves were taken care of. That doesn't necessitate giving up all personal property and income to a supreme leadership communist style.
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RE: The early Church and American Ideals - 10/11/2008 8:45:57 AM
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URForgiven
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quote:
ORIGINAL: chriscb
Do you think the early church's apparent communism (or would it be communalism?) would go against our American ideals, such as being self-reliant and anti-communism (ala Reagan)?
It was an attempt at communal living, and one that did not survive for long I might add. There are many things the early church tried that didn't really work out too well. But it was not Communism.
Communism is what's yours is mine.
Christianity is what's mine is yours.
Big difference. Christianity fits with any society or form of government, because it is internally motivated, not externally forced or controlled.
Peace
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RE: The early Church and American Ideals - 10/11/2008 10:22:42 AM
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themoodyexperience
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quote:
ORIGINAL: FurGodWurLivin
Considering the extreme ostracization of the early Christians, we are comparing apples and oranges. As an American Christian, I give rides to people who don't have cars when I can, I give money away, I share my food... and I'm a Republican, no less.
No, you're not. Don't you know it's impossible to be thoughtful of your fellow man and be a Republican? We are supposed to be evil and kick puppies and such.
quote:
That being said, the "See a need, fill a need" mentality of the early church is one that we should have now... but that doesn't make Capitalism of the devil. Rather, it is because having posessions in common as a choice that makes it such a powerful statement.
Adam
I've actually agreed with you again. The apocalypse can't be far behind.
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RE: The early Church and American Ideals - 10/11/2008 11:37:05 AM
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Lycea
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I think the key has been hinted at in earlier posts. We try to define secular ruling philosophy as "Christian" or "not Christian." The truth is that no secular ruling philosophy will ever be "Christian," precisely because being Christ-like is to lay down one's own self-interest on behalf of others. It is what Christ calls us to do, it is what he did, and it should be the basis of how we interact with those around us. A secular ruling system could never do that and survive for long. So, when we want to defend our brand of secular ruling system, we often end up justifying things in the name of Christ that he would never accept.
Capitalism, communism, monarchy, oligarchy, whatever the secular philosophy and ruling system we are called to live not by their ideals, but by Christ's. When he walked the earth, the rulers were awful, they were unjust, they were dictators, they were immoral, and Christ told his followers to be in the world, but not of it. Same for us.
Sharing all we have to meet the needs of others is not communism, it's Christ-like.
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RE: The early Church and American Ideals - 10/11/2008 1:25:07 PM
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1love1God1way
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quote:
ORIGINAL: FurGodWurLivin
That being said, the "See a need, fill a need" mentality of the early church is one that we should have now... but that doesn't make Capitalism of the devil. Rather, it is because having posessions in common as a choice that makes it such a powerful statement.
Adam
Great way to put it, Adam. I couldn't have said it better myself.
It's not the exact way of living we need to have. It's the attitude.
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RE: The early Church and American Ideals - 10/11/2008 4:50:53 PM
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colliefan
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Didn't Paul write something to the effect that if one was able to work and refused, that individual shouldn't be given anything to eat. I guess he was just a cold-hearted conservative.
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RE: The early Church and American Ideals - 10/11/2008 7:18:23 PM
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1love1God1way
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quote:
ORIGINAL: colliefan
Didn't Paul write something to the effect that if one was able to work and refused, that individual shouldn't be given anything to eat. I guess he was just a cold-hearted conservative.
Are you suggesting that the two notions are mutually exclusive?
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RE: The early Church and American Ideals - 10/11/2008 7:41:42 PM
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colliefan
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quote:
Are you suggesting that the two notions are mutually exclusive?
Not at all. In fact, the two go hand-in-hand. Part of the mess we are in was the idea one can be given a house w/o having to put some of one's own money as a down payment.
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RE: The early Church and American Ideals - 10/11/2008 7:42:24 PM
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1love1God1way
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Ok. In that case, I agree with you 100% :)
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RE: The early Church and American Ideals - 10/12/2008 1:36:00 AM
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humbleinspirit
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I have a Ryrie Study Bible and in the notes it said that sharing all in common was only limited to the Jerusalem church. It mentioned probably because of poverty in that church.
I tried communal living and it didn't work for me. Too many disagreements over petty stuff over what to buy for food, etc.
I believe that a modern day version of Acts would be if you know your brother or sister to be in need to let them borrow something that you have instead. I heard that this could include a car, but I hear a lot of Christians having issues with that one though.
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RE: The early Church and American Ideals - 10/12/2008 3:43:02 AM
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RJR_fan
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As always, the "communism" of the early church led to poverty, and the Church at Jerusalem became an international welfare case. With, I might add, an entitlement mentality. And a weakened grasp on the faith. Many, in fact, turned back to Jewish traditions and against the Risen Savior.
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RE: The early Church and American Ideals - 10/12/2008 3:48:48 AM
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RJR_fan
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quote:
Sharing all we have to meet the needs of others is not communism, it's Christ-like.
Sounds pretty, but not Biblical. I am forbidden to share my wife with needy others, no matter how desperate their need. Cults that advocate the "community of goods" always violate the family to some degree. The most consistent such groups also practice "the community of wives," and the leaders somehow end up with the most, and the best-looking, of the wives.
"There's no romance without finance." It takes resources to provide for a wife and kids. Defrauding one's own family in order to pursue some high-falutin' notion of "superior spirituality" is demonic, as well as a sin against God and man.
The 90% of God's money that the local church has no claim upon builds His kingdom as it finances the raising and education of our children and ourselves.
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The future has never been shaped by majorities but rather by dedicated minorities. And free men do not wait for the future; they create it. RJR
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RE: The early Church and American Ideals - 10/12/2008 7:08:32 AM
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timf
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Do you think the early church's apparent communism (or would it be communalism?) would go against our American ideals, such as being self-reliant and anti-communism (ala Reagan)?
The Bible describes many things including incest and murder. However, not everything is held up as a pattern for us to emulate. Even this idealized example of communal living had some disputes over the distribution of goods.
I suspect what is described is not an ideal state but a survival state. Everyone who became a Christian would be thrown out of the synagogue and socially shunned so that even employment may have been difficult to find. They were living off of diminishing capital assets. This may account for later collections that were taken up for the believers in Jerusalem.
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RE: The early Church and American Ideals - 10/12/2008 7:23:33 AM
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humbleinspirit
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quote:
ORIGINAL: RJR_fan
As always, the "communism" of the early church led to poverty, and the Church at Jerusalem became an international welfare case. With, I might add, an entitlement mentality. And a weakened grasp on the faith. Many, in fact, turned back to Jewish traditions and against the Risen Savior.
But what about where Jesus said if someone asks you to borrow something, not to demand it back? What about when you see your brother in need also?
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RE: The early Church and American Ideals - 10/12/2008 8:42:22 AM
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RJR_fan
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quote:
But what about where Jesus said if someone asks you to borrow something, not to demand it back? What about when you see your brother in need also?
Suppose someone asks to borrow my wife? After all, Jesus just said, if someone asks you to borrow something, not to demand it back, didn't He? Do you see any loopholes in that command, any exceptions?
Fortunately, we have God's entire Word to consult. Some things are not mine to share. Naboth held his vineyard as God's trustee, and for his future generations. He was not at liberty to sell it to Ahab.
Jesus does require us to approach life with an open-hearted, open-handed, regal generosity, since we are children of the all-sufficient King. The whole Bible, though, demonstrates practical means for doing this. The first tithe, for example, funds the local church's health, education, and welfare ministries. The second "rejoicing" tithe funds family vacations and religious pilgrimages. Since we don't need to hike to Jerusalem anymore, maybe it would please God if we partied more often, took people out for dinner after church, etc. The third tithe, every third year, would fund an exuberant block party, complete with gospel singing and preaching.
Imagine -- instead of saving for retirement, why not organize your life so as to save up for, and enjoy, one sabbatical year away from work every seventh year? God thinks it's a good idea. Why don't we?
True, we in America have a long ways to go. Waitresses hate to work on Sunday afternoons, because we Christians are notoriously stingy. We bring reproach to the name of our God by leaving tiny tips.
Hospitality is a forgotten practice. Befriend some Muslim students -- and you'll probably share more meals with them then you do with folks in your own church. (Turkish cooking is excellent, BTW) Invite families from your church over for dinner, but if you expect return invitations, you'll be disappointed time after time after time.
But, we have to start somewhere. The evangelistic platform of the future is not the mass meeting, but the family dinner table.
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The future has never been shaped by majorities but rather by dedicated minorities. And free men do not wait for the future; they create it. RJR
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RE: The early Church and American Ideals - 10/12/2008 8:44:04 AM
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humbleinspirit
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But surely Jesus did not mean to borrow someone's wife, you are taking it out of context.
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RE: The early Church and American Ideals - 10/12/2008 2:06:35 PM
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RJR_fan
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quote:
But surely Jesus did not mean to borrow someone's wife, you are taking it out of context. .
Exactly. As did the original post. "A text without a CONtext is a PREtext."
Yet, isn't it strange how many sects and cults that begin by preaching "the community of goods" go on to practice "the community of wives?" This isn't just ancient history. Moses David Berg's "Children of God / Family of Love" even practices evangelistic prostitution! Google "flirty fish" for details.
Protection of property is a key necessity for protection of family. If you start erasing the boundaries between "mine" and "yours," where do you stop?
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The future has never been shaped by majorities but rather by dedicated minorities. And free men do not wait for the future; they create it. RJR
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RE: The early Church and American Ideals - 10/12/2008 5:36:49 PM
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humbleinspirit
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Yeah, but the Bible didn't said in Acts that believers considered their stuff not their own, however there was the story with Acts. In particular Acts 5:4 - but the contex is listed in the link.
3Then Peter said, "Ananias, how is it that Satan has so filled your heart that you have lied to the Holy Spirit and have kept for yourself some of the money you received for the land? 4Didn't it belong to you before it was sold? And after it was sold, wasn't the money at your disposal? What made you think of doing such a thing? You have not lied to men but to God."
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RE: The early Church and American Ideals - 10/12/2008 9:35:48 PM
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colliefan
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2 Cor 8:1 - 5 (ESV) 1We want you to know, brothers,£ about the grace of God that has been given among the churches of Macedonia, 2for in a severe test of affliction, their abundance of joy and their extreme poverty have overflowed in a wealth of generosity on their part. 3For they gave according to their means, as I can testify, and beyond their means, of their own free will, 4begging us earnestly for the favor of taking part in the relief of the saints— 5and this, not as we expected, but they gave themselves first to the Lord and then by the will of God to us.
The idea of sacrifice is lost on a great deal of the West. Simply because its mantra is "what's in it for me."
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RE: The early Church and American Ideals - 10/13/2008 4:08:46 AM
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RJR_fan
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quote:
The idea of sacrifice is lost on a great deal of the West. Simply because its mantra is "what's in it for me."
So, too, is the idea of community. Sociologists describe us as a "low-context" culture. A famous book of a half-century ago bore the evocative title The Lonely Crowd. A missionary friend complained of how lonely he was after coming home from China, where the unbelieving locals were more helpful and engaged with his life than were his Christian brothers over here.
The US Constitution is a product of enlightenment humanism and mercantile avarice. It's taken a few centuries, but the constitutional legacy of secularism (Article VI -- the formal repudiation of the God of the Bible[1]) has worked its leaven into the general culture, from the tainted center to the lowliest notary public.
Secular humanism starts by negating the bonds between man and God, and ends by destroying the bonds between man and man. You can keep an Enlightenment-defined social order going for a few centuries, as long as you can draw upon the deposit of Christian character to keep the people in order. When the Christians embrace secularism[2], however, that account runs dry.
And everybody is lonely. Christians, perhaps, most of all, since we know from the Bible how things can be, and are supposed to be.
Which explains the appeal of high-demand cults.[3] The advantage of "belonging" to an organization that owns every minute of your day is the intense sense of connection you enjoy to the other dedicated, committed, and focused members.[4]
How do we find our way "back to the garden?" On the personal level, by finding ways to flex our hospitality muscles, beginning with our own kids. But I believe, IMHO, that we need to have a large=scale vision to sustain this endeavor. Including a sense of how we went off the tracks in 1789, and what corrective actions might be in order, once our tribe increases in numbers, wisdom, and influence, and it's our turn to "run the zoo."
I really hope I haven't killed this thread. We agree on the problem -- so what solutions are you all working on "out there?"
[1] The Senators and Representatives before mentioned, and the Members of the several State Legislatures, and all executive and judicial Officers, both of the United States and of the several States, shall be bound by Oath or Affirmation, to support this Constitution; but no religious Test shall ever be required as a Qualification to any Office or public Trust under the United States.
[2] Perhaps 90% of us do, in the USA, by sacrificing upon the altar of secular humanism a treasure far more costly than gold, the hearts, minds, and souls of the children God entrusted to our care.
[3] I spent several years in a street mission that began with a godly preacher's decision to open his heart and home to a variety of street people, but morphed into a doctrinally-sound, spiritually disastrous cult.
[4] See Douglas Hyde's book Dedication and Leadership.
< Message edited by RJR_fan -- 10/13/2008 4:24:53 AM >
_____________________________
The future has never been shaped by majorities but rather by dedicated minorities. And free men do not wait for the future; they create it. RJR
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RE: The early Church and American Ideals - 10/14/2008 7:55:32 PM
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mcleod
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quote:
ORIGINAL: FurGodWurLivin
Considering the extreme ostracization of the early Christians, we are comparing apples and oranges. As an American Christian, I give rides to people who don't have cars when I can, I give money away, I share my food... and I'm a Republican, no less.
That being said, the "See a need, fill a need" mentality of the early church is one that we should have now... but that doesn't make Capitalism of the devil. Rather, it is because having posessions in common as a choice that makes it such a powerful statement.
Adam
Very good Adam with those thoughts!
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RE: The early Church and American Ideals - 10/14/2008 9:50:11 PM
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colliefan
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quote:
... but that doesn't make Capitalism of the devil.
a number of America's capitalists - Mellon, Carniege, ...used their wealth to start hospitals and universities.
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RE: The early Church and American Ideals - 10/15/2008 1:25:36 PM
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Mark328
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quote:
ORIGINAL: humbleinspirit
But surely Jesus did not mean to borrow someone's wife, you are taking it out of context.
No, Jesus didn't mean that. And quit calling me "Surely"! LOL
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