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Speculation: Other Sentient Races??? - 8/2/2008 2:08:37 AM
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Raptorman
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Greetings once more, ladies and gentlemen. I write to all of you today because of a question I have wondered about for months. I can’t seem to find any concrete answer in the Bible. Perhaps that is because I have missed something, or because it is not an important question to have answered, at least on this side of heaven. Still, I come here to ask you for your advice or input. Maybe you’ll think it’s a ridiculous inquiry, or one simply not worth asking, and you may be right. But at least for now, it is something that I always catch myself pondering.
The question, in a very tightly packed nutshell, is this: “Because the only sentient races mentioned in the Bible are humans and angels, does that mean they are the only two such species that God created, or might Christian doctrine allow for others to exist?”
By sentient, I mean creatures who are intelligent and moral, have an awareness of God, and who possess the capability of abstract thought, and the potential of expressing themselves through language, art, culture, etc. And the only two such kinds of created beings explicitly identified in Scripture are, of course, the human race, and the angelic beings (fallen or otherwise). But is this because humans and angels are the only sentients in the creation? Or could there be … others? Like mankind sharing Middle-Earth with Elves, Orcs, Dwarves, Hobbits and Ents in “The Lord of the Rings,” could we be sharing the creation with other races and species, even if we are unaware of their presence?
Maybe they don’t exist. Perhaps I’m just blowing smoke and idly daydreaming. But I am here today because every time a Christian says there cannot “possibly” be intelligent life on other planets, or laughs at the old legends of fauns, trolls and dryads, some voice in my head cries out, “No! Don’t say the issue is settled yet. There could be something we’ve overlooked! Think deeper!” It just doesn’t seem much of an answer to thunderously declare that our doctrine rules out their existence, or that “demons are behind it” if someone believes, for instance, that they encountered a pixy in the forest. Any ideas or thoughts?
[For those of you who are understandably tired of my lengthy ramblings, you can stop reading here if you like. Below are random thoughts and musings about this subject. If you are somehow still patient enough with me, please feel free to read on.]
To be perfectly frank, I find it intriguing that most other religions/worldviews accept as fact the existence of sentient creatures besides man and angel. I’m not saying that these other faiths are more “accurate” than Christianity. It is my firm belief that ours is the only faith that gets every doctrine right (except when us humans come along and muck it up, of course  ). I only claim that it is a point of interest. Islam teaches that there are creatures called Djinn, who Allah made from fire and cannot be seen by humans (this is where the idea of genies originates). Celtic and Norse mythology had several races populating the Earth, from which J.R.R. Tolkien got the ideas for his elves and dwarves. Greco-Roman myth had sirens, nymphs, satyrs and fauns. Are these really just the products of peoples’ fertile imaginations, or a deception carried out by demons? Or could there be something more … substantial behind all those legends of elves and mermaids? Have we jumped too fast and far in calling them childish fables, mere fairy tales? Is it a necessary conclusion that because we lack physical evidence for goblins or naiads, our ancestors must have made them up?
Christians of earlier centuries, if I remember correctly, took these other races seriously, as well. Some theologians tried to explain mermaids not by saying that they were demonic deceptions or that they didn’t exist, but tried to contend for the idea that mermaids were real, yet possessed no immortal souls (a theme prominently featured in the story of The Little Mermaid, before it got all “Disneyfied”). Maybe they were just as gullible and superstitious as everyone around them. Yet I can’t help but wonder if these theologians were more aware of a “true nature” of our world and its inhabitants, before the “Enlightenment” came along and said that if we cannot use scientific instruments to examine something, it should be assumed to not exist.
And for those who are tempted to inform me, “There can’t be any other races, because Jesus only died for humans, and only the Church is His bride,” please keep in mind that Jesus didn’t go to the cross for angels, and yet we take their existence for granted since they are such prominent characters in the Scriptures. Angels possess a nature different from humans, and they were designed for different purposes than we were, so they did not benefit from the blood sacrifice of the Crucifixion in the way we did. Jesus didn’t die for angels (the book of Hebrews tells us as much), and yet from this it does not follow that therefore they don’t exist. The reality of angels shows that, at least in principle, God could create beings that can choose to accept or reject Him, who are moral and can think abstractly, though they were not created in His image, and did not become redeemed by Jesus’ death and resurrection. I would recommend C.S. Lewis’ essay, “Religion and Rocketry.” It deals with extraterrestrial life in particular, but I think most of what it says can be applied to the general question of other sentient races.
Well, I feel compelled to apologize for another long post. This was just something I have wondered a lot about. If you have any thoughts, I would be glad to hear them. Thanks for your time, and God bless!
-John
_____________________________
"Satan himself trembles when the weakest saint is on his knees."
-Unknown
"All you have to decide is what to do with the time that is given to you."
-Gandalf, "Lord of the Rings"
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RE: Speculation: Other Sentient Races??? - 8/2/2008 9:31:03 AM
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rcjames
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Have you ever tried de-caf?
Thanks
RC
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Just a country Preacher's humble opinion
Read the first chapter of my latest book here;
http://www.deliveranceofsara.com
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RE: Speculation: Other Sentient Races??? - 8/3/2008 10:28:00 AM
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MrFribbles
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A very interesting question, Raptorman - and truth be told, one I've been pondering myself lately.
Here's a verse to consider - Deuteronomy 32:8-9. Now, at first glance, it doesn't seem to have much bearing on the discussion at all, but understand that, in my opinion, and the opinion of many people much better read than myself, the last line of verse 8 should read "According to the number of the sons of God," which makes better sense in the context. To paraphrase, God is saying that He let other spiritual beings have some level of authority over other peoples of the earth, but He took the people of Israel to be His personally. All that to say, I think that spiritual beings have a great influence over human affairs than we tend to think.
I see no reason that these other beings you describe cannot exist. Yes, they're not mentioned in Scripture - but neither are cats, heh. A question I've been rolling around in my head is whether or not they are intrinsically spiritual in nature, or if they might exist physically as you or I. If they are spiritual, then I suppose they could be considered a different class of angel - some working for God, for good (such as a forest nymph who leads a lost child out of the woods), some wicked (such as another such nymph who leads that child off a cliff). If they are physical, then it complicates matters for me.
Or perhaps there is, indeed, such as thing as magic? We are commanded not to practice it - why command us to not do something that does not exist? Perhaps these creatures are "magical," and possess a certain dual nature between the spiritual and physical realm?
Fun questions to ponder. Unfortunately, I'm not sure how to verify any answers we may reach. But then again, I suppose that's my Enlightenment-taught brain speaking, always seeking to verify something in a measurable way.
_____________________________
You're a door without a key,
A field without a fence.
You've made a holy fool of me,
And I've thanked you ever since.
- Aaron Weiss
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RE: Speculation: Other Sentient Races??? - 8/3/2008 4:23:43 PM
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Raptorman
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Ah, thanks for the thoughts, Fribbles. Very good points.
Thank you for telling me the fact about other spiritual beings having authority over the rest of the world. I kind of wonder if that's where the idea of pantheons (multiple gods and goddesses) came from. Perhaps the beings to whom we gave the names Osiris, Isis, Quetzalcoatl, Zeus, Artemis or Aphrodite were originally angels or other powerful creatures who served as God's representatives to the world's cultures. Then, over time, we might have begun worshipping them, serving the servant and not the creator, while distorting them and their attributes along the way. Paul did say that even if gods and goddesses were real entities, and more than marble statues or figures of carved wood, they would still be subservient to the true God, Jesus Christ. Of course, this is purely speculation, at least for the time being.
Perhaps they really are spiritual beings, like angels. Or maybe at least several of them have physical characteristics. For example, I wonder why angels must have been the "Sons of God" and the ancestors of the Nephilim in Genesis 6. They can temporarily take physical form (or at least create the illusion of a body), but I thought they weren't capable of reproduction. Personally, I find it more sensible that members of another physical race, like men, produced the Nephilim bloodline. Sort of like Goliath and his ilk being hybrids of humans and the race that gave rise to, say, elf legends. That kind of thing. But again, it's mostly guesswork.
And that's an interesting idea, that they could serve as ministers to us from God, like a forest nymph leading kids out of a dark wood. Perhaps some of them rebelled with the angels who joined Lucifer, and it would explain things like malicious fairies lurking in the forests in European myths. Sure, this is a guess, too, but it makes more sense to me than to just pin all of these myths about merfolk and pixies on demons and superstition.
Fantasy films like Spiderwick Chronicles and Hellboy II had a bunch of fantastical races and creatures in them, and both of those movies only deepened my curiosity. Alas, I wish I knew the answers to these questions for sure. You're right, having a physical specimen would be nice. But when we get to heaven, I suppose we can find out then. We'll probably feel like the kids in Narnia when they see talking animals, fauns and centaurs!  Or if they don't exist, God can explain why that's best. Either way, at least we'll know for sure.
Once more, great thoughts. Thank you for the input.
_____________________________
"Satan himself trembles when the weakest saint is on his knees."
-Unknown
"All you have to decide is what to do with the time that is given to you."
-Gandalf, "Lord of the Rings"
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RE: Speculation: Other Sentient Races??? - 8/6/2008 5:02:09 AM
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howie49
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Raptorman,
Don't know if you've heard of this guy, but one of the foremost experts on "Angels" is a guy named - Dr. Michael Heiser - got his doctorate from Dallas Theological Seminary and has been a frequent guest on the national talk radio show "Coast-to-Coast" with George Noory.
Heiser has a website with lots of interesting information on this very subject you raise, and particularly with regards to the "benai hahelohim"
or 'sons of God' - whom the Babylonians called "The Anunnaki."
Here's a link to his website:
http://www.michaelsheiser.com/
And no, I'm not shilling for the guy, but I think you might find it a good resource link to further your own research.
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RE: Speculation: Other Sentient Races??? - 8/6/2008 11:10:36 AM
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Diolectic
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From: Iowa
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Raptorman
But I am here today because every time a Christian says there cannot “possibly” be intelligent life on other planets, or laughs at the old legends of fauns, trolls and dryads, some voice in my head cries out, “No! Don’t say the issue is settled yet. If there are other Sentient Races, they must not be fallen.
Otherwise Christ would have to been crucified for them.
How would they know that Christ was crucified for them?
They couldn't unless we go to their planet and preach the Gospel.
However, Christ could have been crucified on their planet as well.
This would mean that there are two sacrifices of Christ for two races.
This is not very good in my mind.
Second scenario:
The Sentient Race have not fallen and are what we should have been.
Then explain all the UFOs.
UFOs:
If they are a true Sentient Race, then they seem to be fallen, sinners, for the testimonies of their captives reveal this.
Fact:
UFOs are demonic and related to the paranormal. Do not seek them out!!!
< Message edited by Diolectic -- 8/6/2008 11:20:08 AM >
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RE: Speculation: Other Sentient Races??? - 8/6/2008 11:55:08 AM
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LCannon
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Proverbs 22:30-"No wisdom, no understanding, no counsel can avail against the Lord. 31 The horse is made ready for the day of battle but the victory belongs to the Lord."
Romans 8:38-"For I am sure that neither death, nor life, nor angels, nor principalities, nor things present, nor things to come, nor powers, 39 nor height, nor depth, nor anything else in all creation, will be able to separate us from the love of God in Christ Jesus our Lord."
I assume 'all' means just that, 'all' in an absolute sense. Christ's blood/Victory is 'all' sufficient for all peoples, dimensions and self-aware(aware of one's fate/future)entities. True 'believers' will believe despite no(or even with sketchy)evidence rather then admit to the truth.("He is no fool who gives what he cannot keep to gain what he cannot lose." -Jim Elliot-) Until we have the opportunity to share the Hope borne of God with another planet the mechanics of sharing that faith will remain a mystery but it's an intriguing possibility!
_____________________________
"It may be that when the angels go about their task of praising God they play
only Bach. I am sure, however, that when they are together en famille they
play Mozart and then too our dear Lord listens with special pleasure."(Karl Barth)
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RE: Speculation: Other Sentient Races??? - 8/6/2008 12:10:10 PM
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Raptorman
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Uh, Diolectic, you do realize that UFOs could be demonic, and other sentient races might still exist that have nothing to do with flying saucers, right? Sure, I think it's a strong possibility that UFOs are demonic in origin, but that does not mean that other creatures like us must be behind them, even if there is intelligent life on other planets. For all we know, God could have filled our galaxy with other sentients, and yet with none of them visiting Earth. But I was merely using aliens as an example of other sentients.
And please refer back to what I said in post #1 about how Christ did not die for angels, yet they exist. Some angels have fallen, but so far as we know, God does not offer the fallen ones a plan of redemption. We just accept their existence because they are featured so prominently in the Bible. Imagine if angels were not mentioned in God's Word, and never appeared to humans. You think it would be easy for us to accept their existence then? Probably not, because "Jesus didn't go to the cross for them."
Lastly, I will again recommend C.S. Lewis' essay, "Religion and Rocketry." Aliens are his subject, but most of his arguments would also cover races like, say, elves or trolls, if they were a part of God's creation. Okay, let's say these other races were fallen, and God has offered a redemptive strategy to draw them back to Himself. How are we 100% sure that it has to be the gospel of the cross? We know that "there is no other name under heaven, given among men, by which we must be saved." If other races are out there, they could require different means of salvation, and the Bible simply does not detail them because the Bible is God's way of communicating to humanity. The salvation of other races (if they exist) simply would not be a relevant part of what God wanted to reveal to us by divine revelation, so it's not included in the Bible. If anyone notices a mistake here, please point it out, but in my opinion, it's only because of the nature of humans and their sin that God pays a blood sacrifice (the Crucifixion) to redeem us. Other races could easily have different natures/conditions than we do, and thus may require some altogether different means of redemption.
And LCannon, maybe you're right. But I think we need to remember context here. "Nothing...will be able to separate us from the love of God." It's just showing how the saints can never be separated from God. Nothing in there about other sentients, far as I can tell. Also, I think it's a stretch for Proverbs 22:30 to mean that any other redemptive plans for these races "contradict" the Gospel. At least, that's what I assume you mean. If God has different strategies to redeem other self-aware races, the Gospel would be for humans, and the other plans would be for other races. Believe me, I wish I knew the answers to these questions. But at least we can find out in heaven.
Okay, I've rambled enough for one day.
< Message edited by Raptorman -- 8/6/2008 12:18:14 PM >
_____________________________
"Satan himself trembles when the weakest saint is on his knees."
-Unknown
"All you have to decide is what to do with the time that is given to you."
-Gandalf, "Lord of the Rings"
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RE: Speculation: Other Sentient Races??? - 8/8/2008 11:05:52 AM
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DaveW
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I listened to (and was confused and sickened by) an episode of Dobson about 12 years ago where Dobson was talking to an astronomer from the northwest who was investigating the meteor fragment that supposedly came from mars and was found to have amino acids on it.
They agreed that if the acids came from microscopic life that existed at some time on mars and could not be traced to earth, then Carl Sagan was right and there is no God.
????????
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RE: Speculation: Other Sentient Races??? - 8/8/2008 11:26:30 AM
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Ps103
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quote:
They agreed that if the acids came from microscopic life that existed at some time on mars and could not be traced to earth, then Carl Sagan was right and there is no God.
How on earth did they come to *that* conclusion? It makes no sense.
_____________________________
Fasten your seatbelts...it's going to be a bumpy night.
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RE: Speculation: Other Sentient Races??? - 8/8/2008 11:30:39 AM
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bluestone
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I have a friend in England who says she has seen faieries and such many times in the woods and in her garden.
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RE: Speculation: Other Sentient Races??? - 8/8/2008 12:11:54 PM
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Ps103
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Besides which, Carl Sagan never said that there is no God...
_____________________________
Fasten your seatbelts...it's going to be a bumpy night.
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RE: Speculation: Other Sentient Races??? - 8/8/2008 12:24:06 PM
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mcleod
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quote:
ORIGINAL: DaveW
I listened to (and was confused and sickened by) an episode of Dobson about 12 years ago where Dobson was talking to an astronomer from the northwest who was investigating the meteor fragment that supposedly came from mars and was found to have amino acids on it.
They agreed that if the acids came from microscopic life that existed at some time on mars and could not be traced to earth, then Carl Sagan was right and there is no God.
????????
I would have to disagree with Mr. know-it all Dobson. God could and as record made other beings to exist. For the fallen angels and their leader he shows no love to them at all. So what, they find acids from Mars. Doesn't mean that old Sagan is right.
A thought accured to me  where is Mr Dobson faith at now since he had that discussion? Well Mormons aren't the only one's to have a problem.
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RE: Speculation: Other Sentient Races??? - 8/8/2008 12:26:49 PM
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wintery
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Raptorman, I've enjoyed your ramblings! It is a question for thinking persons. For Christians to have no answer regarding such a possibility is unacceptable to the person who thinks on these things, but of course, it's not for everybody.
quote:
ORIGINAL: Raptorman
Also, I think it's a stretch for Proverbs 22:30 to mean that any other redemptive plans for these races "contradict" the Gospel.
I think there is a typo in your reference.^^^
Meanwhile here's one for you to think on:
And he said unto them, Go ye into all the world, and preach the gospel to every creature. (Mark 16:15)
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RE: Speculation: Other Sentient Races??? - 8/9/2008 3:55:14 AM
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toujours
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I think you mean species, and not races. It goes without saying that as yet no one is qualified to answer that question, but if I had to choose a scripture that even remotely gave me pause for thought on the subject it would be where Jesus states ' And other sheep I have, which are not of this fold: them also I must bring...'
However - even if there is other cognizant life out there I do not suppose that it will ever have a major impact on mankind - or likely as not cross our path. Surely something so monumental would be a part of The Revealing/Revelation? Or mentioned in Job - where it was verified thousands of years ago that the earth is round and in space.
Just my thoughts.
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RE: Speculation: Other Sentient Races??? - 8/9/2008 3:59:17 AM
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toujours
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I agree - I think it is a thought provoking question, too.
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RE: Speculation: Other Sentient Races??? - 8/17/2008 11:32:26 PM
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Raptorman
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Okay, I'm back.
Actually, I found something that may pertain to this discussion. I'll have to conduct some digging to find the actual quote and the reasons behind it, but Chuck Missler (one of the most respectable Bible teachers alive, IMO) apparently says that "demons" and "fallen angels" are not really one and the same. We've just assumed they are because we don't know any better, and our eyes have in most cases been blinded to the supernatural realm, but if Missler is correct, there seems to be a biblical distinction between the angels who rebelled with Lucifer and work for his purposes, and these creatures called "demons," who cooperate with the fallen angels and apparently desire a physical body (Genesis 6 might refer to this, but a sure instance would be the demons named Legion asking Jesus to send them into a herd of pigs). Not sure yet if this is something worth pursuing, but it would certainly have implications for this idea about other sentient races.
Thanks for all the posts, everyone!
_____________________________
"Satan himself trembles when the weakest saint is on his knees."
-Unknown
"All you have to decide is what to do with the time that is given to you."
-Gandalf, "Lord of the Rings"
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RE: Speculation: Other Sentient Races??? - 8/22/2008 1:10:14 PM
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DaveW
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I have been surprised by those that seem to keep saying that demons are fallen angels. Derek Prince pointed out the clear difference back in the 70s, and I am sure that others did before him as well.
Is it perhaps that we do not have a biblical genesis for demons but we do for fallen angels?
_____________________________
Avatar is Saphira 5 months and Louvena at 23 months!
We are now grandparents TWICE!!
====================================
Our CD is now available here:
http://cdbaby.com/cd/dswaggoner
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