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Sin Nature or Sin Nurture? - 10/2/2008 6:01:07 PM
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Child4Jesus
Posts: 465
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From: Long Island, Nassau, Elmont, NY
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I think that both have an influence on us. Because we are born with the tendency toward sinning it makes it that much easier for us to learn to sin.
Now don't get me wrong. I'm not of the opinion that people are born guilty of Adam's sin because that contradicts scripture. Ezekiel 18 is clear that each individual is responsible for his own sin. Sin my father did I'm not responsible for, just like sins I do my father isn't responsible for.
Now I do believe the scripture teaches that people are born with a leaning toward sinning and will eventually/inevitably sin. However I believe that no one ends up in hell for having a sin nature but because they commit sin(s) (and obviously because they are not in Christ).
_____________________________
In Christ,
Richad
The greatest heresy to American Christianity is that if you ask Jesus to come into your heart, he definitely will.
Paul Washer
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RE: Sin Nature or Sin Nurture? - 10/2/2008 7:01:24 PM
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URForgiven
Posts: 1134
Joined: 3/22/2008
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Child4Jesus
I think that both have an influence on us. Because we are born with the tendency toward sinning it makes it that much easier for us to learn to sin.
Now don't get me wrong. I'm not of the opinion that people are born guilty of Adam's sin because that contradicts scripture. Ezekiel 18 is clear that each individual is responsible for his own sin. Sin my father did I'm not responsible for, just like sins I do my father isn't responsible for.
Now I do believe the scripture teaches that people are born with a leaning toward sinning and will eventually/inevitably sin. However I believe that no one ends up in hell for having a sin nature but because they commit sin(s) (and obviously because they are not in Christ).
We are not sinners because we sin, we sin because we are sinners. Nobody ends up in hell because of their sins, they end up there because of their sin, and the sin of the world is unbelief. Unbelief is the only thing that will send a person to hell.
The penalty for our sin of unbelief is death, the only solution to death is life, and the only One who has life is Jesus Christ. If one chooses to remain in their unbelief then they continue on their merry way to where they are going, and where they are going is to hell.
John 3:18
Whoever believes in him is not condemned, but whoever does not believe stands condemned already because he has not believed in the name of God's one and only Son.
Peace
_____________________________
"Are you so foolish? After beginning with the Spirit,
are you now trying to attain your goal by human effort?" Galatians 3:3
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RE: Sin Nature or Sin Nurture? - 10/2/2008 7:21:33 PM
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MrFribbles
Posts: 1741
Joined: 1/29/2007
From: Hawaii, but I've moved around since then
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URForgiven,
I quite agree. You do not have to teach a child to sin. Even if a newborn was whisked away and raised in a controlled environment, I can guarantee that sin would still arise. Why? Because we're sinners. Until we are adopted into Christ, it is our very nature to sin.
_____________________________
You're a door without a key,
A field without a fence.
You've made a holy fool of me,
And I've thanked you ever since.
- Aaron Weiss
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RE: Sin Nature or Sin Nurture? - 10/4/2008 7:55:15 AM
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OleFitzHi
Posts: 86
Joined: 6/26/2006
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Sin nature...definitely. We are born in the image of our father Adam. There is something inherently wrong with us. Only a relationship with our Father through His Son can restore...
The problem I have with your "sin nurture" viewpoint is that it does not magnify the Cross enough. Rather, it magnifies mankind. Did Jesus die on the cross for people who are basically good, but sometimes make bad choices, often due to poor training and example by parents, or by other environmental factors? (I hope I am not mis-stating your viewpoint.)
Or did He die to redeem a people that are fundamentally flawed, nothing altogether lovely about us, no reason for Him to go to the effort, other than love?
The fact that our very nature is corrupt makes the Cross an even more amazing, magnificent, self-less and loving act. To suggest that we are in the least bit worthy minimizes Christ.
quote:
ORIGINAL: Child4Jesus
I think that both have an influence on us. Because we are born with the tendency toward sinning it makes it that much easier for us to learn to sin.
Now don't get me wrong. I'm not of the opinion that people are born guilty of Adam's sin because that contradicts scripture. Ezekiel 18 is clear that each individual is responsible for his own sin. Sin my father did I'm not responsible for, just like sins I do my father isn't responsible for.
Now I do believe the scripture teaches that people are born with a leaning toward sinning and will eventually/inevitably sin. However I believe that no one ends up in hell for having a sin nature but because they commit sin(s) (and obviously because they are not in Christ).
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RE: Sin Nature or Sin Nurture? - 10/4/2008 12:25:41 PM
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Child4Jesus
Posts: 465
Joined: 5/24/2005
From: Long Island, Nassau, Elmont, NY
Status: offline
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Oh believe me I agree with what everyone is saying. I'm not of the opinion that has been thought from hundreds of years that everyone after Adam is guilty of his sin. That is the orthodox sin nature teaching. Scripture however teaches that each individual is responsible for his own sin. I agree that there is something inherently wrong with us which only being in Christ which is being restored to the Father by Christ can solve.
So as far as the sin nurture viewpoint I'm not saying it is either one or the other. I believe it is both. We will inevitably sin even if we are put into a controlled environment like MrFribbles said. However most people are not going to Rob people at gunpoint, like someone did last night to someone, I'm a police officer, unless they learn it from TV or another person.
What amazes me is how there are certain sins that one person is never attracted by yet another is immediately attracted to.
What I disagree with is that we are all born guilty already. How can that be having done nothing wrong yet? I 100% believe that it is because of the original sin/sin nature view in Adam that people say this. Again I'm not saying we don't have a so called sin nature but again I have to disagree we are guilty of anything you haven't done or that we are guilty of Adam's sin.
_____________________________
In Christ,
Richad
The greatest heresy to American Christianity is that if you ask Jesus to come into your heart, he definitely will.
Paul Washer
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RE: Sin Nature or Sin Nurture? - 10/4/2008 1:24:03 PM
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MrFribbles
Posts: 1741
Joined: 1/29/2007
From: Hawaii, but I've moved around since then
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quote:
Again I'm not saying we don't have a so called sin nature but again I have to disagree we are guilty of anything you haven't done
Then where did that sin nature come from?
_____________________________
You're a door without a key,
A field without a fence.
You've made a holy fool of me,
And I've thanked you ever since.
- Aaron Weiss
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RE: Sin Nature or Sin Nurture? - 10/4/2008 1:40:00 PM
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URForgiven
Posts: 1134
Joined: 3/22/2008
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Child4Jesus
What I disagree with is that we are all born guilty already.
It is, unfortunately, worse than that...we are all born spiritually dead. The wages of sin is not the receiving of a propensity to sin more, the wages of sin is death. A dead person has no ability to think or behave as anything other than as a dead person. The only thing that could cause a dead person to think and behave as someone who is alive...is life.
1 John 5:12
He who has the Son has life; he who does not have the Son of God does not have life.
Peace
_____________________________
"Are you so foolish? After beginning with the Spirit,
are you now trying to attain your goal by human effort?" Galatians 3:3
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RE: Sin Nature or Sin Nurture? - 10/5/2008 12:23:47 AM
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OleFitzHi
Posts: 86
Joined: 6/26/2006
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Let's talk about federal headship. Here is a link to a pretty concise article regarding this doctrine.
http://www.carm.org/doctrine/federal.htm
In short, the doctrine of federal headship states that Adam was our representative before God. When he fell, we all fell. When we are born, we are born into the family of Adam. Adam represented the human race before God, and he did not do a good job. Therefore we are not born into a state of peace with God, but a state of discord.
When we accept Christ, we are no longer under the headship of Adam. We are under the headship of Christ, which puts us into a reconciled state with God the Father. We are reconciled to the Father, because our representative, Christ, is in good standing with the Father.
It would be like if your dad sold your whole family into slavery before you were born. You would be a slave from the moment of your birth, even though you had no idea. That would be Adam's federal headship.
Then imagine that you were adopted into a different family that weren't slaves. Their dad had not made a bad deal for you. In fact, he had made a great deal and you were rich. That would be Christ's federal headship.
Would you tell me what has led you to question this doctrine that you admit is orthodox and has been held for a long time? I am curious what brought you to this.
quote:
ORIGINAL: Child4Jesus
Oh believe me I agree with what everyone is saying. I'm not of the opinion that has been thought from hundreds of years that everyone after Adam is guilty of his sin. That is the orthodox sin nature teaching. Scripture however teaches that each individual is responsible for his own sin. I agree that there is something inherently wrong with us which only being in Christ which is being restored to the Father by Christ can solve.
So as far as the sin nurture viewpoint I'm not saying it is either one or the other. I believe it is both. We will inevitably sin even if we are put into a controlled environment like MrFribbles said. However most people are not going to Rob people at gunpoint, like someone did last night to someone, I'm a police officer, unless they learn it from TV or another person.
What amazes me is how there are certain sins that one person is never attracted by yet another is immediately attracted to.
What I disagree with is that we are all born guilty already. How can that be having done nothing wrong yet? I 100% believe that it is because of the original sin/sin nature view in Adam that people say this. Again I'm not saying we don't have a so called sin nature but again I have to disagree we are guilty of anything you haven't done or that we are guilty of Adam's sin.
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RE: Sin Nature or Sin Nurture? - 10/5/2008 1:11:26 AM
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Child4Jesus
Posts: 465
Joined: 5/24/2005
From: Long Island, Nassau, Elmont, NY
Status: offline
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quote:
Again I'm not saying we don't have a so called sin nature but again I have to disagree we are guilty of anything you haven't done
quote:
ORIGINAL: MrFribbles
Then where did that sin nature come from?
It's hard to say. I mean is it in our DNA Code? Is it a spiritual thing? What exactly changed about Adam and Eve that every person born after that sins?
Sorry to answer back with questions.
I guess the bottom line is that people sin and are in need of a savior. That Savior is Jesus Christ.
_____________________________
In Christ,
Richad
The greatest heresy to American Christianity is that if you ask Jesus to come into your heart, he definitely will.
Paul Washer
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RE: Sin Nature or Sin Nurture? - 10/5/2008 6:28:43 AM
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OleFitzHi
Posts: 86
Joined: 6/26/2006
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I have wondered if our DNA was corrupted at the fall.
quote:
ORIGINAL: Child4Jesus
quote:
Again I'm not saying we don't have a so called sin nature but again I have to disagree we are guilty of anything you haven't done
quote:
ORIGINAL: MrFribbles
Then where did that sin nature come from?
It's hard to say. I mean is it in our DNA Code? Is it a spiritual thing? What exactly changed about Adam and Eve that every person born after that sins?
Sorry to answer back with questions.
I guess the bottom line is that people sin and are in need of a savior. That Savior is Jesus Christ.
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RE: Sin Nature or Sin Nurture? - 10/5/2008 5:00:15 PM
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MrFribbles
Posts: 1741
Joined: 1/29/2007
From: Hawaii, but I've moved around since then
Status: offline
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quote:
I guess the bottom line is that people sin and are in need of a savior.
But if you have no solution to propose about how that sin nature arose, why do you reject the classically held view?
_____________________________
You're a door without a key,
A field without a fence.
You've made a holy fool of me,
And I've thanked you ever since.
- Aaron Weiss
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RE: Sin Nature or Sin Nurture? - 10/6/2008 12:41:48 AM
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Child4Jesus
Posts: 465
Joined: 5/24/2005
From: Long Island, Nassau, Elmont, NY
Status: offline
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quote:
I guess the bottom line is that people sin and are in need of a savior.
quote:
ORIGINAL: MrFribbles
But if you have no solution to propose about how that sin nature arose, why do you reject the classically held view?
I don't disagree with the Classically held view whole sale so to speak. What I reject is that people are born guilty of Adam's sin.
_____________________________
In Christ,
Richad
The greatest heresy to American Christianity is that if you ask Jesus to come into your heart, he definitely will.
Paul Washer
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RE: Sin Nature or Sin Nurture? - 10/6/2008 10:36:53 PM
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OleFitzHi
Posts: 86
Joined: 6/26/2006
Status: offline
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You may not be as far from the classical view as you think. Here is one definition:
"Western Christian tradition regards it as the general condition of sinfulness (lack of holiness) into which human beings are born, distinct from any actual sins that a person may or may not commit later. "
http://www.answers.com/topic/original-sin
quote:
ORIGINAL: Child4Jesus
quote:
I guess the bottom line is that people sin and are in need of a savior.
quote:
ORIGINAL: MrFribbles
But if you have no solution to propose about how that sin nature arose, why do you reject the classically held view?
I don't disagree with the Classically held view whole sale so to speak. What I reject is that people are born guilty of Adam's sin.
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RE: Sin Nature or Sin Nurture? - 10/7/2008 12:40:35 AM
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Child4Jesus
Posts: 465
Joined: 5/24/2005
From: Long Island, Nassau, Elmont, NY
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Child4Jesus
I guess the bottom line is that people sin and are in need of a savior.
quote:
ORIGINAL: MrFribbles
But if you have no solution to propose about how that sin nature arose, why do you reject the classically held view?
I don't disagree with the Classically held view whole sale so to speak. What I reject is that people are born guilty of Adam's sin.
quote:
ORIGINAL: OleFitzHi
You may not be as far from the classical view as you think. Here is one definition:
"Western Christian tradition regards it as the general condition of sinfulness (lack of holiness) into which human beings are born, distinct from any actual sins that a person may or may not commit later. "
http://www.answers.com/topic/original-sin
That sounds right to me.
_____________________________
In Christ,
Richad
The greatest heresy to American Christianity is that if you ask Jesus to come into your heart, he definitely will.
Paul Washer
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RE: Sin Nature or Sin Nurture? - 10/7/2008 2:50:58 PM
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Bluethread
Posts: 1530
Joined: 11/8/2007
Status: online
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quote:
ORIGINAL: URForgiven
quote:
ORIGINAL: Child4Jesus
What I disagree with is that we are all born guilty already.
It is, unfortunately, worse than that...we are all born spiritually dead. The wages of sin is not the receiving of a propensity to sin more, the wages of sin is death. A dead person has no ability to think or behave as anything other than as a dead person. The only thing that could cause a dead person to think and behave as someone who is alive...is life.
1 John 5:12
He who has the Son has life; he who does not have the Son of God does not have life.
Peace
This is the direct and proximate cause argument. For example, did the car get in the accident because it was traveling in the wrong direction, or because the driver failed to recognize the "One Way" sign. Both are causes but for different reasons.
If pressed, I would have to say that we have a propensity toward selfishness as part of our inherited instinct toward self preservation. However, this is what I think is being talked about in Heb 4:15 "For we do not have a high priest who is unable to sympathize with our weaknesses, but we have one who has been tempted in every way, just as we are--yet was without sin." The Messiah had the desire for self preservation also, but He was able to control that such that it did not violate the directions of The Creator and in doing so respected to interests of others.
_____________________________
"Show me wherein I have errored and I will hold my tongue." Iyov(Job)
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RE: Sin Nature or Sin Nurture? - 10/7/2008 6:38:25 PM
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URForgiven
Posts: 1134
Joined: 3/22/2008
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Bluethread
quote:
ORIGINAL: URForgiven
quote:
ORIGINAL: Child4Jesus
What I disagree with is that we are all born guilty already.
It is, unfortunately, worse than that...we are all born spiritually dead. The wages of sin is not the receiving of a propensity to sin more, the wages of sin is death. A dead person has no ability to think or behave as anything other than as a dead person. The only thing that could cause a dead person to think and behave as someone who is alive...is life.
1 John 5:12
He who has the Son has life; he who does not have the Son of God does not have life.
Peace
This is the direct and proximate cause argument. For example, did the car get in the accident because it was traveling in the wrong direction, or because the driver failed to recognize the "One Way" sign. Both are causes but for different reasons.
If pressed, I would have to say that we have a propensity toward selfishness as part of our inherited instinct toward self preservation. However, this is what I think is being talked about in Heb 4:15 "For we do not have a high priest who is unable to sympathize with our weaknesses, but we have one who has been tempted in every way, just as we are--yet was without sin." The Messiah had the desire for self preservation also, but He was able to control that such that it did not violate the directions of The Creator and in doing so respected to interests of others.
Hmmm, I think you are just way over everyones heads Blue. If the car was going in the wrong direction, or if the driver failed to see the sign, either way, it is still the driver that caused the accident, no? Does a car drive itself?
How does that relate to 1 John 5:12 again??
Peace
_____________________________
"Are you so foolish? After beginning with the Spirit,
are you now trying to attain your goal by human effort?" Galatians 3:3
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. I do appreciate your kind words on the other thread. Thank you. 
