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Romans 8:26 - 7/20/2008 4:46:24 PM
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mvic
Posts: 1046
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Romans 8:26.
In the same way the Spirit also comes to help us, weak as we are. For we do not know how we ought to pray; the Spirit himself pleads with God for us in groans that words cannot express. And God, who sees into our hearts, knows what the thought of the Spirit is; because the Spirit pleads with God on behalf of his people and in accordance with his will.
What is Paul saying here? If God, Jesus and the Spirit are one in a Trinity how can the Spirit speak to God?
That aside, why should the Spirit plead with God on our behalf? It's like God pleading with Himself on our behalf. Also, "... in accordance with his will." - Whose will? God or the Spirit?
Can anyone explain please? Thanx.
_____________________________
http://www.holyvisions.co.uk
Welcome to my Blog
MEI VITA INDICO CHRISTUS
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RE: Romans 8:26 - 7/20/2008 5:23:29 PM
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LCannon
Posts: 1273
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Romans 8:18-"For I reckon that the sufferings of this present age are not worthy [to be compared] with the coming of His glory. The anxious creature looks for the revelation of the sons of God: for he has been made subject to this world yet has been redeemed from corruption into the liberty of the glory of the children of God. We know the whole creation cries out in pain together yet we have been saved in hope; but if what we see isn’t apparent our hope is sure in patience. In like manner, the Spirit joins its help to our weakness; for our deepest feelings cannot be expressed[in words] but the Spirit itself pleas for us in its yearnings which cannot be uttered. But he who searches the hearts knows what [is] the mind of the Spirit because he intercedes for the saints abiding with God. We do know that all things knit together in His purpose to those who obey God; to those who are called according to His comfort. For I am persuaded that neither death, nor life, nor angels, nor principalities, nor things present, nor things to come, nor height, nor depth, nor any other power, shall be able to separate us from the love of God, which [is] in Christ Jesus our Lord. Amen."(my paraphrase)
Sometimes words fail us in the depth of our soul. In Mark 14:36, Romans 8:15 and Galatians 4:6 are used in the same context, oppression probably demonic. That being the case, "Abba! Father" probably is a sign of desperation and resignation rather then intimacy and warmth. On the flip side, who can express(in words) the depth of obedience in worship? Sometimes words are a poor excuse for conveying our allegiance.
_____________________________
"Many of our prayers are for an easy solution. God is more glorifed in Him
when souls exhibit His Grace under pressure." -Elisabeth Elliot-
"But at my stumbling they gathered in glee...[but]How long, O Lord,
wilt thou look on?" -Psalms 35:15-
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RE: Romans 8:26 - 7/20/2008 6:38:44 PM
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theo_book
Posts: 570
Joined: 4/8/2008
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quote:
ORIGINAL: mvic
Romans 8:26.
In the same way the Spirit also comes to help us, weak as we are. For we do not know how we ought to pray; the Spirit himself pleads with God for us in groans that words cannot express. And God, who sees into our hearts, knows what the thought of the Spirit is; because the Spirit pleads with God on behalf of his people and in accordance with his will.
What is Paul saying here? If God, Jesus and the Spirit are one in a Trinity how can the Spirit speak to God?
That aside, why should the Spirit plead with God on our behalf? It's like God pleading with Himself on our behalf. Also, "... in accordance with his will." - Whose will? God or the Spirit?
Can anyone explain please? Thanx.
There is no place in scripture where you can go to show that God and his holy spirit are not one and the same. God shares himself with his creation, and it is done by giving of his spirit to men.
It was NOT "God the Spirit" who moved upon the face of the deep; it was "God's Spirit."
"And the earth was without form, and void; and darkness was upon the face of the deep. And the Spirit of God moved upon the face of the waters." -Gen 1:2
And it was not "God the Spirit" that could not strive with man. It was "God's Spirit."
"And the LORD said, My spirit shall not always strive with man, for that he also is flesh: yet his days shall be an hundred and twenty years." -Gen 6:3
It was not "God the Holy SPirit" that was in Joseph; it was God's Holy Spirit.
"And Pharaoh said unto his servants, Can we find such a one as this is, a man in whom the Spirit of God is?" -Gen 41:38
And the "Spirit OF GOD" is not a separate third-person-of-a-trinity being, it is God sharing himself with his creation.
"And I have filled him with the spirit of God, in wisdom, and in understanding, and in knowledge, and in all manner of workmanship," -Exo 31:3
"And he hath filled him with the spirit of God, in wisdom, in understanding, and in knowledge, and in all manner of workmanship;" -Exo 35:31
No introduction of "God the Spirit"
And I will come down and talk with thee there: and I will take of the spirit which is upon thee, and will put it upon them; and they shall bear the burden of the people with thee, that thou bear it not thyself alone. -Num 11:17
No introduction of "God the Spirit"
And the LORD came down in a cloud, and spake unto him, and took of the spirit that was upon him, and gave it unto the seventy elders: and it came to pass, that , when the spirit rested upon them, they prophesied, and did not cease. -Num 11:25
No introduction of "God the Spirit"
But there remained two of the men in the camp, the name of the one was Eldad, and the name of the other Medad: and the spirit rested upon them; and they were of them that were written, but went not out unto the tabernacle: and they prophesied in the camp. -Num 11:26
Note: "HIS" Spirit, not "third-person-of-a-trinity" Spirit.
And Moses said unto him, Enviest thou for my sake? would God that all the LORD'S people were prophets, and that the LORD would put his spirit upon them! -Num 11:29
And Balaam lifted up his eyes, and he saw Israel abiding in his tents according to their tribes; and the spirit of God came upon him. -Numbers 24:2
No introduction of "God the Spirit" - Note also, Spirit is anarthrous except in the translations. And the LORD said unto Moses, Take thee Joshua the son of Nun, a man in whom is the spirit, and lay thine hand upon him; -Num 27:18
And Joshua the son of Nun was full of the spirit of wisdom; for Moses had laid his hands upon him: and the children of Israel hearkened unto him, and did as the LORD commanded Moses. -Deut 34:9
And the Spirit of the LORD came upon him, and he judged Israel, and .... -Jdgs 3:10
NOT "God the Spirit" but the "Spirit OF THE LORD."
But the Spirit of the LORD came upon Gideon, and he blew a trumpet; and Abi-ezer was gathered after him. -Jdgs 6:34
Then the Spirit of the LORD came upon Jephthah, and he passed over.... -Jdgs 11:29
And the Spirit of the LORD began to move him at times in the camp of Dan between.... -Jdgs 13:25
And the Spirit of the LORD came mightily upon him, and he rent him as he would have rent a kid, and ..... -Jdgs 14:6
And the Spirit of the LORD came upon him, and he went down to Ashkelon, and slew thirty men of them, and took their spoil, and gave.....-Jdgs 14:19
And when he came unto Lehi, the Philistines shouted against him: and the Spirit of the LORD came mightily upon him, and the cords that were upon his arms became as flax that was burnt with fire, and his bands loosed from off his hands. -Jdgs 15:14
And the Spirit of the LORD will come upon thee, and thou shalt prophesy with them, and shalt be turned into another man. -1 Sam 10:6
"Spirit OF God is not eqivalent to "God the SPirit."
And when they came thither to the hill, behold, a company of prophets met him; and the Spirit of God came upon him, and he prophesied among them. -1 Sam 10:10
And the Spirit of God came upon Saul when he heard those tidings, and his anger was kindled greatly. -1 Sam 11:6
Then Samuel took the horn of oil, and anointed him in the midst of his brethren: and the Spirit of the LORD came upon David from that day forward. So Samuel rose up, and went to Ramah. -1 Sam 16:13
But the Spirit of the LORD departed from Saul, and an evil spirit from the LORD troubled him. -1 Sam 16:14
And Saul sent messengers to take David: and when they saw the company of the prophets prophesying, and Samuel standing as appointed over them, the Spirit of God was upon the messengers of Saul, and they also prophesied. -1 Sam 19:20
And he went thither to Naioth in Ramah: and the Spirit of God was upon him also, and he went on, and prophesied, until he came to Naioth in Ramah. -1 Sam 19:23
The Spirit of the LORD spake by me, and his word was in my tongue. -2 Sam 23:2
And it shall come to pass, as soon as I am gone from thee, that the Spirit of the LORD shall carry thee whither I know not; and so when I come and tell Ahab, and he cannot find thee, he shall slay me: but I thy servant fear the LORD from my youth. -1 Kings 18:12
And they said unto him, Behold now, there be with thy servants fifty strong men; let them go, we pray thee, and seek thy master: lest peradventure the Spirit of the LORD hath taken him up, and cast him upon some mountain, or into some valley. And he said, Ye shall not
send. -2 Kings 2:16
No introduction of "God the Spirit" - "Spirit" is anarthrous. Article is Supplied by translators: Then the spirit came upon Amasai, who was chief of the captains, and he said, Thine are we, David, and on thy side, thou son of Jesse: peace, peace be unto thee, and peace be to thine helpers; for thy God helpeth thee. Then David received them, and made them captains of the band. -1 Chron 12:18
No introduction of "God the Spirit"
And the pattern of all that he had by the spirit, of the courts of the house of the LORD, and of all the chambers round about, of the treasuries of the house of God, and of the treasuries of the dedicated things: -1 Chron 28:12
And the Spirit of God came upon Azariah the son of Oded: -2 Chron 15:1
Then Zedekiah the son of Chenaanah came near, and smote Micaiah upon the cheek, and said, Which way went the Spirit of the LORD from me to speak unto thee? -2 Chron 18:23
Then upon Jahaziel the son of Zechariah, the son of Benaiah, the son of Jeiel, the son of Mattaniah, a Levite of the sons of Asaph, came the Spirit of the LORD in the midst of the congregation; -2 Chron 20:14
And the Spirit of God came upon Zechariah the son of Jehoiada the priest, which stood above the people, and said unto them, Thus saith God, Why transgress ye the commandments of the LORD, that ye cannot prosper? because ye have forsaken the LORD, he hath also forsaken you. -2 Chron 24:20
Note: "HIS" Spirit, not "God the Spirit."
By his spirit he hath garnished the heavens; his hand hath formed the crooked serpent. -Job 26:13
Spirit OF God -
All the while my breath is in me, and the spirit of God is in my nostrils; -Job 27:3
The Spirit of God hath made me, and the breath of the Almighty hath given me life. -Job 33:4
MY Spirit.
Turn you at my reproof: behold, I will pour out my spirit unto you, I will make known my words unto you. -Prov 1:23
And the spirit of the LORD shall rest upon him, the spirit of wisdom and understanding, the spirit of counsel and might, the spirit of knowledge and of the fear of the LORD; -Isa 11:2
MY Spirit. -
Woe to the rebellious children, saith the LORD, that take counsel, but not of me; and that cover with a covering, but not of my spirit, that they may add sin to sin: -Isaiah 30:1
The Spirit that is to be poured on us from on high, is God himself, sharing his spirit with us.
Until the spirit be poured upon us from on high, and the wilderness be a fruitful field, and the fruitful field be counted for a forest.
-Isa 32:15
The grass withereth, the flower fadeth: because the spirit of the LORD bloweth upon it: surely the people is grass. -Isa 40:7
Who hath directed the Spirit of the LORD, or being his counseller hath taught him? -Isaiah 40:13
"MY" Spirit.
Behold my servant, whom I uphold; mine elect, in whom my soul delighteth; I have put my spirit upon him: he shall bring forth judgment to the Gentiles. -Isa 42:1
"MY" Spirit
For I will pour water upon him that is thirsty, and floods upon the dry ground: I will pour my spirit upon thy seed, and my blessing upon thine offspring: -Isaiah 44:3
"HIS" spirit
Come ye near unto me, hear ye this; I have not spoken in secret from the beginning; from the time that it was, there am I: and now the Lord GOD, and his Spirit, hath sent me. -Isa 48:16
"Spirit OF the Lord"
So shall they fear the name of the LORD from the west, and his glory from the rising of the sun. When the enemy shall come in like a flood, the Spirit of the LORD shall lift up a standard against him. -Isa 59:19
"MY" Spirit
As for me, this is my covenant with them, saith the LORD; My spirit that is upon thee, and my words which I have put in thy mouth, shall not depart out of thy mouth, nor out of the mouth of thy seed, nor out of the mouth of thy seed's seed, saith the LORD, from henceforth and for ever. -Isa 59:21
The Spirit of the Lord GOD is upon me; because the LORD hath anointed me to preach good tidings unto the meek; he hath sent me to bind up the brokenhearted, to proclaim liberty to the captives, and the opening of the prison to them that are bound; -Isaiah 61:1
As a beast goeth down into the valley, the Spirit of the LORD caused him to rest: so didst thou lead thy people, to make thyself a glorious name. -Isa 63:14
No introduction of "God the Spirit"
And the spirit entered into me when he spake unto me, and set me upon my feet, that I heard him that spake unto me. -Eze 2:2
No introduction of "God the Spirit"
Then the spirit took me up, and I heard behind me a voice of a great rushing, saying, Blessed be the glory of the LORD from his place. -Eze 3:12
No introduction of "God the Spirit"
So the spirit lifted me up, and took me away, and I went in bitterness, in the heat of my spirit; but the hand of the LORD was strong upon me. -Eze 3:14
No introduction of "God the Spirit"
Then the spirit entered into me, and set me upon my feet, and spake with me, and said unto me, Go, shut thyself within thine house. -Eze 3:24
No introduction of "God the Spirit"
And he put forth the form of an hand, and took me by a lock of mine head; and the spirit lifted me up between the earth and the heaven, and brought me in the visions of God to Jerusalem, to the door of the inner gate that looketh toward the north; where was the seat of the image of jealousy, which provoketh to jealousy. -Eze 8:3
No introduction of "God the Spirit"
Moreover the spirit lifted me up, and brought me unto the east gate of the LORD'S house, which looketh eastward: and behold at the door of the gate five and twenty men; among whom I saw Jaazaniah the son of Azur, and Pelatiah the son of Benaiah, the princes of the people. -Eze 11:1
And the Spirit of the LORD fell upon me, and said unto me, Speak; Thus saith the LORD; Thus have ye said, O house of Israel: for I know the things that come into your mind, every one of them. -Eze 11:5
No introduction of "God the Spirit"
Afterwards the spirit took me up, and brought me in a vision by the Spirit of God into Chaldea, to them of the captivity. So the vision that I had seen went up from me. -Eze 11:24
"MY" Spirit
And I will put my spirit within you, and cause you to walk in my statutes, and ye shall keep my judgments, and do them. -Ezekiel 36:27
The hand of the LORD was upon me, and carried me out in the spirit of the LORD, and set me down in the midst of the valley which was full of bones, -Eze 37:1
And shall put my spirit in you, and ye shall live, and I shall place you in your own land: then shall ye know that I the LORD have spoken it, and performed it, saith the LORD. -Eze 37:14
"MY" Spirit
Neither will I hide my face any more from them: for I have poured out my spirit upon the house of Israel, saith the Lord GOD. -Ezekiel 39:29
No introduction of "God the Spirit"
So the spirit took me up, and brought me into the inner court; and, behold, the glory of the LORD filled the house. -Eze 43:5
No introduction of "God the Spirit"
But at the last Daniel came in before me, whose name was Belteshazzar, according to the name of my god, and in whom is the spirit of the holy gods: and before him I told the dream, saying, -Dan 4:8
No introduction of "God the Spirit"
O Belteshazzar, master of the magicians, because I know that the spirit of the holy gods is in thee, and no secret troubleth thee, tell me the visions of my dream that I have seen, and the interpretation thereof. -Dan 4:9
No introduction of "God the Spirit"
This dream I king Nebuchadnezzar have seen. Now thou, O Belteshazzar, declare the interpretation thereof, forasmuch as all the wise men of my kingdom are not able to make known unto me the interpretation: but thou art able; for the spirit of the holy gods is in thee. -Dan 4:18
No introduction of "God the Spirit"
There is a man in thy kingdom, in whom is the spirit of the holy gods; and in the days of thy father light and understanding and wisdom, like the wisdom of the gods, was found in him; whom the king Nebuchadnezzar thy father, the king, I say, thy father, made master of the magicians, astrologers, Chaldeans, and soothsayers; -Dan 5:11
No introduction of "God the Spirit"
I have even heard of thee, that the spirit of the gods is in thee, and that light and understanding and excellent wisdom is found in thee. -Dan 5:14
"Pour out MY SPIRIT upon all flesh."
And it shall come to pass afterward, that I will pour out my spirit upon all flesh; and your sons and your daughters shall prophesy, your old men shall dream dreams, your young men shall see visions: -Joel 2:28
"MY" Spirit
And also upon the servants and upon the handmaids in those days will I pour out my spirit. -Joel 2:29
"Spirit of the Lord"
O thou that art named the house of Jacob, is the spirit of the LORD straitened? are these his doings? do not my words do good to him that walketh uprightly? -Mic 2:7
"SPIRIT of the Lord"
But truly I am full of power by the spirit of the LORD, and of judgment, and of might, to declare unto Jacob his transgression, and to Israel his sin. -Mic 3:8
"MY" Spirit
According to the word that I covenanted with you when ye came out of Egypt, so my spirit remaineth among you: fear ye not. -Haggai 2:5
"BY MY SPIRIT."
Then he answered and spake unto me, saying, This is the word of the LORD unto Zerubbabel, saying, Not by might, nor by power, but by my spirit, saith the LORD of hosts. -Zech 4:6
"HIS SPIRIT."
Yea, they made their hearts as an adamant stone, lest they should hear the law, and the words which the LORD of hosts hath sent in his spirit by the former prophets: therefore came a great wrath from the LORD of hosts. -Zech 7:12
"SPIRIT OF GOD" NOT "God the Spirit."
But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you. Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his. -Rom 8:9
"HIS" Spirit
But if the Spirit of him that raised up Jesus from the dead dwell in you, he that raised up Christ from the dead shall also quicken your mortal bodies by his Spirit that dwelleth in you. -Rom 8:11
"HIS" Spirit
But God hath revealed them unto us by his Spirit: for the Spirit searcheth all things, yea, the deep things of God. -1 Cor 2:10
THE SPIRIT WHICH IS OF GOD
"Now we have received, not the spirit of the world, but the spirit which is of God; that we might know the things that are freely given to us of God." [I Cor 2:12]
"But even unto this day, when Moses is read, the vail is upon their heart. 16 Nevertheless when it shall turn to the Lord, the vail shall be taken away. 17 Now THE LORD IS THAT SPIRIT: and where the Spirit of the Lord is, there is liberty." [II Cor 3:15-17]
Is this Titus's Spirit? or did Titus send another Spirit? "HIS" Spirit means the Spirit of HIM.
Therefore we were comforted in your comfort: yea, and exceedingly the more joyed we for the joy of Titus, because his spirit was refreshed by you all. -2 Cor 7:13
The same holds true for God. "His Spirit" means it is God's Spirit, not another spirit sent by God.
That he would grant you, according to the riches of his glory, to be strengthened with might by his Spirit in the inner man; -Eph 3:16
And the "Spirit of Jesus Christ" means the Spirit that belongs to Jesus Christ.
For I know that this shall turn to my salvation through your prayer, and the supply of the Spirit of Jesus Christ, -Phil 1:19
Searching what, or what manner of time the Spirit of Christ which was in them did signify, when it testified beforehand the sufferings of Christ, and the glory that should follow. -1 Pet 1:11
"HIS" Spirit.
Hereby know we that we dwell in him, and he in us, because he hath given us of his Spirit. -1 John 4:13
I have supplied you with evidence throughout scripture that God is the Holy Spirit. It is now another's turn to show from scripture that this is not so.
There is no place in scripture you can go to show that Jesus did not share "his" Spirit but sent another from himself. And the Holy Spirit that God sent, was God's own spirit, shared with his creation, MAN, through and with his son Jesus Christ.
One of the popular "proof texts" supposedly teaching a "third-person-God-the-Holy Spirit" cannot be shown to do so.
ANANIAS LIED TO THE HOLY GHOST
"But Peter said, Ananias, why hath Satan filled thine heart to lie to the Holy Ghost, and to keep back part of the price of the land?
ANANIAS LIED TO GOD
4 Whiles it remained, was it not thine own? and after it was sold, was it not in thine own power? why hast thou conceived this thing in thine heart? thou hast not lied unto men, but unto God.
5 And Ananias hearing these words fell down, and gave up the ghost: and great fear came on all them that heard these things.
6 And the young men arose, wound him up, and carried him out, and buried him.
7 And it was about the space of three hours after, when his wife, not knowing what was done, came in.
8 And Peter answered unto her, Tell me whether ye sold the land for so much? And she said, Yea, for so much.
TEMPT THE SPIRIT OF THE LORD
9 Then Peter said unto her, How is it that ye have agreed together to tempt the Spirit of the Lord?" [Acts 5:3-9]
Therefore, the Holy Ghost IS THE SPIRIT OF THE LORD.
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RE: Romans 8:26 - 7/21/2008 3:38:48 PM
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BerianAardvark
Posts: 371
Joined: 5/10/2008
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: mvic
Romans 8:26.
In the same way the Spirit also comes to help us, weak as we are. For we do not know how we ought to pray; the Spirit himself pleads with God for us in groans that words cannot express. And God, who sees into our hearts, knows what the thought of the Spirit is; because the Spirit pleads with God on behalf of his people and in accordance with his will.
What is Paul saying here? If God, Jesus and the Spirit are one in a Trinity how can the Spirit speak to God?
I think that the point being made is that even when we are at a loss for words to express how we feel in prayer, even when we mess up and sin, God still cares, loves us and is on our side helping us to become what He has already declared us to be (justified).
quote:
That aside, why should the Spirit plead with God on our behalf? It's like God pleading with Himself on our behalf. Also, "... in accordance with his will." - Whose will? God or the Spirit?
Why does the Spirit need to help us pray? God already knows what we need even better than we do:
"And when you are praying, do not use meaningless repetition as the Gentiles do, for they suppose that they will be heard for their many words. "So do not be like them; for your Father knows what you need before you ask Him. (Matthew 6:7-8)
Not only does the Spirit plead with God on our behalf, but so is Jesus:
Therefore He is able also to save forever those who draw near to God through Him, since He always lives to make intercession for them. (Hebrews 7:25)
Jesus prayed, is that God talking to God? After a fashion, yes....However even though the members of the Trinity are one in essence, they are still three persons. Each has a part not only in our salvation but in our sanctification as well.
Paul is forced to use human terms to describe spiritual truths in a manner that lets us understand them.
_____________________________
The Law is for the proud and the Gospel for the brokenhearted - Martin Luther
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RE: Romans 8:26 - 7/21/2008 6:04:29 PM
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mvic
Posts: 1046
Joined: 1/17/2008
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Thank you Berian Aardvark.
You have a gift of explaining things very clearly. Thanx for taking the time to respond.
God bless.
_____________________________
http://www.holyvisions.co.uk
Welcome to my Blog
MEI VITA INDICO CHRISTUS
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RE: Romans 8:26 - 7/24/2008 8:58:31 PM
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rcjones
Posts: 184
Joined: 5/19/2008
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quote:
the Spirit himself pleads with God for us in groans that words cannot express.
In the 'Jesus Wept' thread you will see how Jesus groans when approaching Lazarus' tomb in anticipation of his own death.
Interceding on our behalf with groans, is using the cross as evidence in our behalf.
And as much as we don't understand it, David and Jesus confirm that "The Lord said to my Lord"...
_____________________________
Riddle me this:
Job 8.9 (For we are but of yesterday, and know nothing, because our days upon earth are a shadow)
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