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Reading problems with son - 9/30/2008 12:04:33 PM
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ConsiderHim
Posts: 102
Joined: 5/30/2006
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Hello all! It's been a while since I've posted here and I think I need some help.
Like many home schoolers I jumped right in with phonics when my son was 5. Using Teach Your Child to Read in 100 easy Lessons it seemed to go along fine, slower than with his older sister, but still fine. After about the third week I noticed that he was sounding out the letters when they were by themselves but had great difficulty when they were put together in words or sound blends. Following the advice of some women I respected I took some time off phonics. This was welcome for me because my mother and father were ill and I needed the extra time.
After the death of my mother I tried to get back on track with a more "normal" schedule and started phonics back up with my son. The process was very slow. He did ok with the individual letter sounds but when asked to put them into a sentence would forget everything. By the time he reached 7 I was very frustrated and gave up the whole idea of teaching him phonics. I tried to read to him and see if he picked up words on his own- he did not. I tried to concentrate on writing in hopes he would understand them- he did not. Over the last two years progress has been very slow.
This school year my ds is 9 and in 4th grade. He is more than a year behind in math because I make him read the word problems (with each page containing them he can only get through one page a day). He is very good at chess, Bible, science and history and has proven that he is very smart in these areas as long as he is tested verbally and not asked to read or spell.
Over the last few months his reading has improved greatly and he is reading at grade two level. This morning we read a level 3 reader. It took us 45 minutes to get through it but he (and me too!) was very proud. However, there were still many instances of his not remembering the simplest of sounds- like ch, sh, short i, a and e and he still sounds out d as b.
One of the bigger things I've noticed is that he doesn't seem to hear what he is reading! For example- we will read a word in a story. This word will be repeated several times throughout the story- maybe even a character's name. I will point to the word while I sound it out with him. The next sentence will have the same word in it and he will stop. I will say, "It's the same word" and point to it in the previous sentence. He will not know it. I will sound it out again. Two sentences later we will come to the same word and again he will have no idea what it is! The kicker is his little 4 yr old brother, who is playing on the floor and listening to the story, will know what the word is because of the story's flow. When the little guy says the word then the older one gets mad and is embarrassed. I hate this! I want him to love reading but right now he wants nothing to do with words!
Am I doing something wrong? I've had his hearing and eyes checked and he's ok there. He is obviously able to think ahead in chess and retain knowledge from Bible, science and history so he's got a good IQ. Is this some form of auditory dyslexia? Should I have him tested? And how do I test him without him thinking badly of himself? Is there a reading program to help?
I am so tired of sounding out every single word we come to and so is he!!
_____________________________
"For consider Him that endured such contradiction of sinners against Himself, least ye be wearied and faint in your minds." Heb. 12:3
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RE: Reading problems with son - 9/30/2008 12:13:29 PM
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Jenny-Fair
Posts: 6273
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From: WA
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quote:
He is more than a year behind in math because I make him read the word problems
I would not do this. Now math is just as frustrating as reading.
Have you checked your library for Hooked on Phonics? I ask this because I had a boy who learned to read at about that age, and who is an auditory learner, and after going through only one deck of cards w/tape it finally clicked. He couldn't read well after that, but he was able to learn what he needed to learn.
Also, instead of using readers, because they are so low on interest for kids this age, we used a regular book that he would have wanted to hear read aloud anyway, and we read it together, him sounding out what he could, and me making up funny phonics rules and reading the words he wasn't ready for yet.
Oh, and I probably would not do more than 20 minutes at a sitting at this stage.
_____________________________
Tony: Ziva, did you kill Houdini?
Ziva: It is possible. I do not remember all their names.
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RE: Reading problems with son - 9/30/2008 12:14:15 PM
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favoredmomof4
Posts: 24
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Hi!
God bless you for your patience. It sounds like it has been a long road to get where you are with your son's reading. My first thought, after reading your post, is that you should look into testing for him. If there is a reason for this, it may provide relief for both you and your son. I know in our state (MA), homeschoolers are allowed to get testing through public schools. I don't know what the process is though.
On the other hand, it does sound like there has been, and continues to be improvement. That's great! The most important thing is that he isn't made to feel "stupid", because he clearly isn't. My oldest boy took longer learning to read than my daughter, too. However, he was at grade level by second grade. It sounds like there may be another issue for your son.
My prayers are with you! 
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RE: Reading problems with son - 9/30/2008 1:02:30 PM
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his_chosen
Posts: 1063
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My ds4 is 10yo and just started enjoying reading. Before that, it was a chore. He was leaps and bounds "ahead" in everything else. Just not reading. Part of it was he wasn't interested. Part of it I think he wasn't ready. Now, I give him his library books as a reward for finishing his school work.
Hang in there. Keep working at it. Get library books that interest him. Add some non-fiction if that's what he wants. Who cares what he is reading, as long as it keeps his interest. I would stop each session just before he gets frustrated. As his mom, you know when that is.
I would not make him read his math story problems. And, if his other subjects require much reading, I would read it too him. Don't let his struggles with reading hamper the other subjects.
_____________________________
You have a choice. You can throw in the towel or you can use it to wipe the sweat off your face.
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RE: Reading problems with son - 9/30/2008 1:09:34 PM
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Bagel
Posts: 314
Joined: 4/11/2005
From: Oregon
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I don't have THE answers, but I'll share just what our experience has been. My son and his father both really didn't start reading until they were 9, and then they caught on and took off. My son was also tested for Scotopic Sensitivity Syndrome which means that the brains tells him that what his eyes are seeing, is moving all around. In my son's case, his brain is telling him that his world is disoriented and when he reads, his words move on the paper or fade in and out or lift off of the paper etc. So he has a pair of glasses with filters in the lenses that are supposed to help his world and written words come together and stay put. I had his vision checked and as far as clarity, physically, his eyes are fine, he has 20/20 vision, but his brain is just telling him that everything is in motion or off to the side or whatever. So that might be something to consider having him tested for.
My cousin has several boys who weren't ready to really read until they were 9. They were ahead in math and doing great, but until they could really read on their own, their mother read the math story problems and directions to them.
_____________________________
Bagel Lisa
check out my blog at http://bagelslifehomeschool.blogspot.com/
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RE: Reading problems with son - 9/30/2008 1:59:08 PM
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Jenny-Fair
Posts: 6273
Joined: 4/11/2005
From: WA
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quote:
I started reading all the math problems last week and it's going faster... he even liked it but I didn't know if that was because he liked the math or that he knew he didn't have to read.
Read his problems to him, but use your magic finger. Sorry...run your index finger under the words as you read them. He won't be able to NOT read them along with you, lol.
Also, if he just wans't developmentally ready, then the truth is, it doesn't matter how long you have been working on it. Sad to say, but it might have b een wasted time and added pressure if his brain was just not yet prepared. So don't look at this like you have been pushing against a brick wall for years. Look at it like you are waiting for your fruit tree to give fruit--you can't force it to come any faster, and you wouldn't expect an immature tree to do what a mature tree does.
This is one reason many of us feel you should not try to teach very young children to read unless they want to.
_____________________________
Tony: Ziva, did you kill Houdini?
Ziva: It is possible. I do not remember all their names.
My Blog
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RE: Reading problems with son - 9/30/2008 2:09:41 PM
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Ellie-Mae
Posts: 3739
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i have a nine year old that needs help with reading as well. He is perfectly smart, but doesn't really get into reading and has problems remembering all the rules and sounds and such.
I got him subscribed to time4learning as an easy way to reinforce his reading while having fun doing it. He is doing much better now. You have to pay for it, but it has been worth it. If you want to try that, let me know.
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Please do not PM me about this message, discuss it at the water cooler, or include it in your church bulletins. If you have questions, please keep them to yourself. ~Kerrlaw
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RE: Reading problems with son - 9/30/2008 2:13:05 PM
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Jenny-Fair
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Actually, I have at least one child who prefers word problems.
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Ziva: It is possible. I do not remember all their names.
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RE: Reading problems with son - 9/30/2008 2:29:04 PM
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cynthia
Posts: 7988
Joined: 3/31/2005
From: Beautiful Puget Sound Region
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Some children are not developmentally ready to read until around nine. However, there are some children that have underlying issues that keep them from reading. It is a good thing to have children tested for anything that could be hindering their reading. I have not done a lot of reading on this issue, but I can say that there has been a movement to not be concerned about delayed reading that in some children can lead to further problems.
Dr. Beechick recently wrote on the Basically Beechick Yahoo Group:
quote:
"The Learning Disability Myth" by Dr. Robin Pauc. Her title
does not mean the problems are a myth but that what is usually
said about them is myth. From a medical viewpoint (but highly
readable) she explains what is behind the symptoms, and suggests
a lot to do to treat and cure the causes. She says no Ritalin.
She explains some diagnostic procedures you can do at home and
gives full diet information and other treatments. I think this
book will help a lot of you.
Dr. Beechick is a proponent of gentle teaching, but she believes learning issues must be ruled out early rather than waiting until it may have become worse. I suggest you follow her advice, as quoted above, and read the book The Learning Disability Myth" by Dr. Robin Pauc. I have not read it, but if Dr. Beechick recommends it, it is bound to be helpful.
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RE: Reading problems with son - 9/30/2008 2:45:49 PM
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cynthia
Posts: 7988
Joined: 3/31/2005
From: Beautiful Puget Sound Region
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I don't think he would lose anymore confidence if you test him than he probably has lost by not reading. Besides if you read "The Learning Disability Myth" and try the diagnostic exercises in the book, you can easily do them with him as part of your daily work and he shouldn't be bothered by that. You can tell him you are doing some testing to see how you can help him improve his reading. How could that cause him to lose confidence!
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My husband and I have a motto:
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RE: Reading problems with son - 10/1/2008 10:24:16 AM
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Auben
Posts: 1611
Joined: 4/13/2005
From: Where pines tower and cranberries float
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I think you can and should do some unofficial testing for dyslexia without announcing it.
You can get books, read about it, and make observations before getting professional testing.
We go to a homeschool playgroup and my older boys have a good friend from that group who has dyslexia. He has almost all of the things you observe in your son, especially the difficulty sounding it out. It seems every time he reads the letters look a little different. He can work extremely hard and learn it one day and the next he can't do it. It looks different to him. It won't stick.
If it is dyslexia a wait and see approach won't help as much as finding some techniques that can help him organize and see words easier.
We're very proud of this friend. He works very hard and this year has even started reading The Hobbit! It may take him the next 2 years but only 2 years ago he was barely able to read anything.
Knowing he has dyslexia hasn't hurt this boy. He already knew he was different. He just thought he was dumb at reading. Knowing he has dyslexia and that he can work with it and around it helped him realize that he's smart (at math, at science) and it helped ignite his passion for learning.
BTW, my friend reads history and math to her son. She wants him to concentrate his reading only on fun books which self-motivate him to read and enjoy the process. She does a mix of typing and writing as well.
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RE: Reading problems with son - 10/1/2008 3:53:55 PM
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cynthia
Posts: 7988
Joined: 3/31/2005
From: Beautiful Puget Sound Region
Status: online
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I believe one of my children is dyslexic. I have read a lot on the subject and did some things with her to help her with her reading and writing issues. The turning point for her was when she made some kind of comment that made me realize that she saw the letters from all different angles. When I explained to her that each letter went the same way every single time and that she could not look at them from any other angle, it was like a light bulb went on in her head. We went over some of the exercises we had been doing and suddenly it all made sense to her. One of the exercises was to trace sandpaper letters with her finger. We went through all the letters, in the correct position and she became concretely aware of what I had been doing with her for months. She realized that every single letter went one way and one way only. After that, she steadily improved and is now a great reader.
I was watching my husband work one day. He is a maintenance man, but he can fix, make or build just about anything. I was watching him apply trim between a wall and a ceiling, in a crocked room. This was right around the same time my daughter had her epiphany about reading. I watched how he studied the room before cutting. He didn't really measure. He felt it with his hands and carefully observed. Then he would cut a piece, by sight and place it. I asked him, "Are you able to see this from every angle at once?" He said, "Yeah, why?" He didn't realize that not everyone can do that and it can create a lot of problems for some people, especially if they cannot control it.
_____________________________
My husband and I have a motto:
We are the leader. We are one.
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RE: Reading problems with son - 10/3/2008 10:01:20 AM
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sen10tious
Posts: 348
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For whatever it is worth, here is the strategy "prescribed" for these symptoms in my "how to teach phonics" manual:
When the student comes to a word he cannot read, ask him if there is any part of the word that he can read. For example, if the child is having difficulty reading that, ask if he can find any smaller parts that he recognizes. Maybe he will find the at, if not, cover the th and ask if he can read the "at" part. Then ask if he remembers what sound the "th" makes. Follow the strategy of looking for small parts of words that the student does know.
Along with this they have some practice worksheets; (someone has counted the most common words to make these; but you should be able to make your own if you know the words he usually had trouble with. Also, the book ABC's and All Their Tricks is a great resource for helping to do this. This single book has been more valuable in my teaching than curriculums costing hundreds of dollars. If you are a make-your-own lesson kind of person, it is a real deal.)
Anyway, make or find word lists that correspond to his reading level or find words from the next story you plan to have him read, about 15-20 words per list. Copy the words on notebook paper or type & print them from your word processor so that they are large enough to easily cover parts of the word with your finger. Have your child look for smaller words or sounds within the larger word. (Can he find the word "old" or "den" in golden?) Cover the 'extra' letters so that he can see and read the smaller part by itself. Have him underline or circle that part. Then look at the other letter sounds.
The idea is that some children have trouble breaking down large words into smaller decipherable parts. Practice breaking down words into recognizable sounds or syllables until the student is comfortable using this technique to help him remember an old word or figure out a new one.
According to the manual, teaching this strategy doubles the number of words a child can decode on their own. (Of course, you live in real life and that was the result at a university reading lab.)
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RE: Reading problems with son - 10/4/2008 1:08:09 PM
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judii1
Posts: 355
Joined: 4/11/2005
From: The Frozen Thumb of MI!
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quote:
We're doing Math-U See.
Ds had a very hard time with math until we switched to Math U See.
I just wanted to mention that we used a lot of different computer games when Ds was learning to read.
Reader Rabbit comes to mind but i know there are others.
< Message edited by judii1 -- 10/6/2008 11:49:11 AM >
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RE: Reading problems with son - 10/4/2008 2:39:38 PM
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bzirk
Posts: 2909
Joined: 4/11/2005
From: Where the deer and antelope play
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Auben
I think you can and should do some unofficial testing for dyslexia without announcing it.
You can get books, read about it, and make observations before getting professional testing.
We go to a homeschool playgroup and my older boys have a good friend from that group who has dyslexia. He has almost all of the things you observe in your son, especially the difficulty sounding it out. It seems every time he reads the letters look a little different. He can work extremely hard and learn it one day and the next he can't do it. It looks different to him. It won't stick.
If it is dyslexia a wait and see approach won't help as much as finding some techniques that can help him organize and see words easier.
We're very proud of this friend. He works very hard and this year has even started reading The Hobbit! It may take him the next 2 years but only 2 years ago he was barely able to read anything.
Knowing he has dyslexia hasn't hurt this boy. He already knew he was different. He just thought he was dumb at reading. Knowing he has dyslexia and that he can work with it and around it helped him realize that he's smart (at math, at science) and it helped ignite his passion for learning.
BTW, my friend reads history and math to her son. She wants him to concentrate his reading only on fun books which self-motivate him to read and enjoy the process. She does a mix of typing and writing as well.
Ditto.
My son is 15 and dyslexic. I can so relate to your posts, considerhim. Been there and done that in spades. I began to really come to grips with my sons problems when he was about 9 or 10. I won't sugar coat it. It's hard. It requires seeking the Lord and the Lord continually putting things in perspective or at least that's what I've had to do. Some people might get their peace about how to proceed and that's it. Not me and not others I've known who are in the same situation. It is a growing situation for the parent as well as the child and it's usually uncomfortable.
Even though my son now reads on grade level and above, it is slow reading. So I read history and science to my son and used to read the word problems in math and still do if it's necessary. I lecture on history and I use a marker board so he can write the things down that I want him to remember. I repeat things A LOT.
One of my closest friends was about to pull her hair out with her son. She has been teaching four children, and the other three are doing very well. But her youngest has struggled greatly. I've shared some things with her, but I really encouraged her to get him tested. It turns out that he has very severe dyslexia. He was 11 years old and reading on a 1st grade level. My friend had gone to bed in tears many nights (I can so relate to that!). But since she got him tested and got some help, he is doing great. She knows what to do because she knows what's wrong. But make no mistake that it's a daily thing and one in which she has to let the Lord continually set her expectations of her son. BTW, it's interesting that this kid can build anything, and he loves war games. Doesn't know how to play chess yet, but they ought to teach him. 
I cannot say enough that if your son has dyslexia (or some form of it) that other homeschoolers who have not been in your shoes and advise you to just get a better phonics program and who may be very well intentioned (in fact, I have no doubt they are), do not understand that as great as it can be to find a good phonics program, just applying a good phonics program is usually not the answer for dyslexics. It's just not that simple. There are so many variations of dyslexia that there is a not a single prescription.
But I'll share some things we and others we know have found to be helpful. Using colored transparencies for reading -- putting them over the page. My son does well with a particular color. Other kids do better with other colors. It's trial and error to find out what works. We also isolate words and sentences. We also DO NOT have him ever read books with really funky looking type. He's learned to steer clear of those as well.
Something else that helped my son (but it may not help everyone) was to get the EyeQ program. This is a speeding reading program, and I got it for my other kids, but my son, who LOVES games (he's very good at chess as well) and competition, wanted to try it. I hestitated to let him use it, but he was so interested in it that I let him. It helped him a lot. I'm not sure exactly how it helped, but I do know that the program has a series of eye/brain exercises. This boosted his reading speed noticeably. That in turn made reading much less frustrating. One warning about this program is if you get it, you or your son or anyone else who uses it should read all the directions carefully. I didn't, and I just did some of the exercises the first day I opened it, and I had a severe headache for several days. It turns out that the exercises can strain the eye if someone doesn't pace themselves.  It's also expensive.
We also, as a family, read out loud a lot. This is fun, and my son has gotten a lot out of this. I have several books of speeches and lots of poetry and of course books of short stories and novels not to mention newspapers and other periodicals. We take turns reading from these things on a regular basis. He has learned a lot by just listening. He and his older sister are studying western civilization this year, and the other day I was talking about some ancient texts and how they are viewed as accurate. I then was about to launch into three of the tests for legitimizing texts, and before I could list them, he interrupted me and said, "Yeah, I know, internal, external and bibliographic." Then he launched into an explanation of what they are exactly. I was stunned since he and I have not discussed that in two years. He does this kind of thing frequently, and it's astounding because so much of this stuff I taught him verbally. My point is don't limit how he learns. Don't limit him to reading as the only or even the chief way he gains knowledge. Look at the sermons you listen to that teach you great things. They can be poweful and so can your teaching him verbally. I say that only with the assumption that your son, who has difficulty gaining information through reading, has learned or is eager to learn with his ears. Not all kids respond this way, but he might have. And don't be afraid to repeat things over and over.Maybe not like a parrot but work the same points in as much as you can. It does help. The key is not to let that repetition make you feel defeated. Something that's helped me hang in is to think of the things I've had to hear over and over.
BTW, your son may very well be really good at chess because he is dyslexic. I don't know that, but it could be the case. Dyslexics tend to process things more three dimensionally. This is one reason so many are drawn to engineering or systems. Their understanding of spatial relationships is actually more complex than the rest of us. At least that's what I'm learning, and I now know quite a few dyslexics, and it's amazing to me how many are good with engineering things or seeing situations from a much broader but complex viewpoint than most people, which can manifest in the ability to manage a system -- coaching, coordinating a group of people or moving men on a chess board.
_____________________________
may the God of hope fill you with all joy and peace in believing, so you will abound in hope by the power of the Holy Spirit. Romans 15:13
Great quote: I just ain't God and don't know it all. -- SonInMe1
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RE: Reading problems with son - 10/4/2008 3:16:27 PM
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bzirk
Posts: 2909
Joined: 4/11/2005
From: Where the deer and antelope play
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: cynthia
I believe one of my children is dyslexic. I have read a lot on the subject and did some things with her to help her with her reading and writing issues. The turning point for her was when she made some kind of comment that made me realize that she saw the letters from all different angles. When I explained to her that each letter went the same way every single time and that she could not look at them from any other angle, it was like a light bulb went on in her head. We went over some of the exercises we had been doing and suddenly it all made sense to her. One of the exercises was to trace sandpaper letters with her finger. We went through all the letters, in the correct position and she became concretely aware of what I had been doing with her for months. She realized that every single letter went one way and one way only. After that, she steadily improved and is now a great reader.
I was watching my husband work one day. He is a maintenance man, but he can fix, make or build just about anything. I was watching him apply trim between a wall and a ceiling, in a crocked room. This was right around the same time my daughter had her epiphany about reading. I watched how he studied the room before cutting. He didn't really measure. He felt it with his hands and carefully observed. Then he would cut a piece, by sight and place it. I asked him, "Are you able to see this from every angle at once?" He said, "Yeah, why?" He didn't realize that not everyone can do that and it can create a lot of problems for some people, especially if they cannot control it.
Yep, the multisensory stuff can work wonders. I used the Spelling Power program, and in the practice exercises was the encouragement ot trace the letters of a word while saying them out loud. This was extremely helpful.
My mother and I have talked extensively about my dad and his great difficulty with spelling and even writing. He hated school but he was extremely intelligent. He had the ability to do what you're describing of your husband. He literally could do anything -- other than spell well without help. When I think back to the things he accomplished, I'm stunned. He even loved to read because he loved information and a good story, but it was slow for him.
_____________________________
may the God of hope fill you with all joy and peace in believing, so you will abound in hope by the power of the Holy Spirit. Romans 15:13
Great quote: I just ain't God and don't know it all. -- SonInMe1
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RE: Reading problems with son - 10/4/2008 3:40:00 PM
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Ellie-Mae
Posts: 3739
Joined: 4/9/2005
From: The EMPIRE state!
Status: online
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I am curious, did your kids also have a great deal of problems with spelling as well? And what do you guys do about state testing?
_____________________________
Please do not PM me about this message, discuss it at the water cooler, or include it in your church bulletins. If you have questions, please keep them to yourself. ~Kerrlaw
W2D1
292 more miles t
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RE: Reading problems with son - 10/4/2008 3:50:27 PM
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bzirk
Posts: 2909
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From: Where the deer and antelope play
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Oh yes, my son has had enormous problems with spelling. We've just kept at it, and over the years it has improved. Is it great? No, but he works at it. As for state testing, he's gotten better at that. In Colorado no one has ever asked to see his tests. We just test him and move on, and if the spelling has affected that at times, and it has, I don't sweat it. I just can't get bogged down in that. If the state were breathing down my neck, I might think differently but then again maybe not. He is dyslexic, and I seriously doubt the school wants him back so they can spend lots of money on him, so it would probably never be an issue.
_____________________________
may the God of hope fill you with all joy and peace in believing, so you will abound in hope by the power of the Holy Spirit. Romans 15:13
Great quote: I just ain't God and don't know it all. -- SonInMe1
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We also read a lot of books by Jean Fritz Here is a link to some of the books she has written. 
I can't believe I didn't think about reading them for him till now. 
When he started to improve this summer and then he wanted to check out a book and read like his older sister I was shocked. There we were not even doing school... how dare he get better, even if it was a little bit, with out me helping him!! 
