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PASTOR ARNOLD MURRAY - 11/9/2008 4:29:50 PM
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tomhillbilly
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hello. ive been studying with shepherds chapel family bible study hour with pastor arnold murray for about the last ten years. fairly regularly and more as the years have gone by. He is a fantastic bible teacher and a person just cant go wrong with the chapter-by-chapter,verse-by-verse format.
for some reason i've encountered people that tell me i shouldnt study with him, im curious about opinions and what exactly peoples problems could possibly be with his teachings
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RE: PASTOR ARNOLD MURRAY - 11/9/2008 5:44:50 PM
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earthless
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False prophet and false teacher.
Our last round robbin thread about him was HERE
Your friends are right in warning you about not paying heed to him.
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RE: PASTOR ARNOLD MURRAY - 11/10/2008 12:06:52 AM
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tomhillbilly
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ill admit ive never spent a great deal of time in church, though i did frequent a methodist church for a time back in high school and a few different churches around the area from time to time. I studied the bible on my own and with pastor murray for quite a while now and i think there is something to be said for equating this type of study to being equal to church.
thanx for the links on this matter.
ok regarding the trouble-maker video and pastor murray "going for his 9mm" it sounds about like the right thing to do with someone who goes there just to disrupt peoples religious freedom.
now as far as the link from the "christian research center" i have to disagree with their criticisms. It seems like they had to dig pretty deep and take a few quotes out of context to have pastor murray labeled a heretic.
regarding the trinity- What these critics are calling modelism doesnt sound any different than what ive heard from christians on this site save for the oneness people. I had never even heard of oneness before i joined here, and try as they might i dont see the big claim that they are really different from standard trinity doctrine either.
I also dont understand the "little Gods" or mormonism comparisons and argue against this as well. I've never in my years of study seen pastor murray put anyone near the same category of jesus and God or even come close.
I admit ive found a few of his teachings a little odd, but over-all he seems to have very sound and fundamental christian teachings.
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RE: PASTOR ARNOLD MURRAY - 11/10/2008 12:30:30 AM
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stephanos
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The vast majority of people on this board DO NOT support modalism. If you truly think that, then you have no idea what modalism, or true trinitarian thought really is.
Here is a quick quick clift notes version
Orthodox trinitarian thought, something that the vast majority of Catholics, Eastern Orthodox, Lutherans and Protestants all agree on, is that God is triune. God the Father, God the Son, and God the Holy Spirit. Each one is at the same time seperate from each other, yet also always together. There is no time, EVER in the history of eternity past or eternity future that the three do not exist as one. The Father exists at the same time the Son exists at the same time the Holy Spirit exists. They are all seperate but they are one.
The heresy of modalism, will say that all three are the same, all three are God. But that God only appears as each one at a time. The Father does not coexist with the Son at the same time. God "changes" his mask depending on who/how/what he is dealing with. God put down His "Father" mask, and put on the "Son" mask when He came to earth, then put on the "Holy Spirit" mask ect.
This is pure heresy as it rejects the true nature of God.
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RE: PASTOR ARNOLD MURRAY - 11/10/2008 1:10:59 AM
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GodsMusic
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NM
< Message edited by GodsMusic -- 11/10/2008 1:17:32 AM >
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RE: PASTOR ARNOLD MURRAY - 11/10/2008 8:19:24 AM
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earthless
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quote:
ORIGINAL: tomhillbilly
I admit ive found a few of his teachings a little odd, but over-all he seems to have very sound and fundamental christian teachings.
He doesn't. I refer you, again, to the thread that covers a lot of his abhorrent teachings on the core essentials.
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RE: PASTOR ARNOLD MURRAY - 11/10/2008 8:37:48 AM
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tomhillbilly
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stephanos i never heard of modalism before i came here. I believe on the trinity pastor murray is the same as all the other groups you mentioned.
earthless i am new to the forums and maybe some different people would like to participate with my thread and/or people have some new thoughts as well.
ive sampled a god it of preachers on tv and pastor murray is the only one ive found that teaches chapter-by-chapter and verse by verse. Thats why he seems to me alot more credible than alot of other ive seen
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RE: PASTOR ARNOLD MURRAY - 11/10/2008 9:00:36 AM
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earthless
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quote:
ORIGINAL: tomhillbilly
earthless i am new to the forums and maybe some different people would like to participate with my thread and/or people have some new thoughts as well.
That's fine but the moderators usually close duplicate threads if another one (which is recent) is available. Which is why I was trying to point you to that one. Also because a lot of your questions have been already covered and addressed in that thread.
Would be a good read/study for you.
quote:
ORIGINAL: tomhillbilly
ive sampled a god it of preachers on tv and pastor murray is the only one ive found that teaches chapter-by-chapter and verse by verse. Thats why he seems to me alot more credible than alot of other ive seen
Jehovah Witnesses also go chapter by chapter, verse by verse - but their teachings run contrary to biblical Christianity.
Here is quick and dirty run down of the problems with Arnold Murray's teachings:
1) Arnold Murray denies the doctrine of the Trinity, denies the existence of hell and the rapture, and states that Eve had sexual relations with the devil. Which is the 'Serpent Seed' doctrine.
2) Arnold Murray likes to refer to the Christian Identity Movement - a racist and hateful ideology that teaches that the British are the true descendants of the ancient Israelites. They also teach that Jews in Israel are really descended from Cain who were the result of sexual intercourse between Eve and Satan.
3) Arnold Murray also teaches that all people had a pre-existence in spirit-bodies before they were born.
4) He does not practice proper biblical contextual reading. He does not adhere to exegesis when interpreting Scripture, but rather practices eisigesis (reading into the passages things which are not there). Murray also selectively appeals to the Strong's concordance, cites what Greek and Hebrew words mean, and waves his theological positions into the text.
He justifies his ideas through his unsound interpretive techniques.
5) He claims to hold a doctorate - but from where? One does not need a doctorate to be a doctrinally sound preacher/teacher.. but it would be nice to know where his is from.
The fact that Arnold deviates from orthodoxy, from the core essentials (Trinity, etc), that he is very secret about his qualifications and experience, that he is rude and angry over those that do not agree with him, and that he has a slew of non-biblical based teachings are all sings of a false teacher.
I personally recommend you do not pay heed to this man for spiritual teaching/counsel.
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RE: PASTOR ARNOLD MURRAY - 11/10/2008 10:53:50 AM
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Ephesians4_32
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Arnold Murray may go verse by verse, but he manipulates the word of God as he goes along. He tries to tell you how this word and that word should be interpreted. One of his biggest lies is what is known as the Serpent Seed doctrine. Satan is not the literal father of human beings and especially not of Cain. Cain's human father was Adam.
Was Satan in the form of a snake or man in the garden? If he was a snake, how did he get Eve pregnant? If he was was not a snake, then that passage is not to be taken literally and when speaking of his seed and her seed, it isn't literal.
We are part of God's family if we have faith in Christ. That does not mean that Adam was God. While Arnold Murray doesn't refer to Adam as God, it is inferred that if some are the children of Satan and others are the children of God, we are either talking about literal children of their fathers or it is to be taken in a spiritual sense.
"That is, it is not the children of the flesh who are children of God, but the children of the promise are regarded as descendants." (Romans 9:8)
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RE: PASTOR ARNOLD MURRAY - 11/10/2008 11:08:06 AM
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Kat_D
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quote:
ORIGINAL: tomhillbilly
ill admit ive never spent a great deal of time in church, though i did frequent a methodist church for a time back in high school and a few different churches around the area from time to time. I studied the bible on my own and with pastor murray for quite a while now and i think there is something to be said for equating this type of study to being equal to church.
thanx for the links on this matter.
ok regarding the trouble-maker video and pastor murray "going for his 9mm" it sounds about like the right thing to do with someone who goes there just to disrupt peoples religious freedom.
now as far as the link from the "christian research center" i have to disagree with their criticisms. It seems like they had to dig pretty deep and take a few quotes out of context to have pastor murray labeled a heretic.
regarding the trinity- What these critics are calling modelism doesnt sound any different than what ive heard from christians on this site save for the oneness people. I had never even heard of oneness before i joined here, and try as they might i dont see the big claim that they are really different from standard trinity doctrine either.
I also dont understand the "little Gods" or mormonism comparisons and argue against this as well. I've never in my years of study seen pastor murray put anyone near the same category of jesus and God or even come close.
I admit ive found a few of his teachings a little odd, but over-all he seems to have very sound and fundamental christian teachings.
Well, no offense, but if someone responded to Murray's obvious heretical teachings as you have in this thread, I'd have to question whether or not they were able to discern sound teaching.
Regarding Murray's pulling his 9mm on his TV show, how do you know the guy he wanted to use it on wasn't just someone who disagreed with his false teaching?
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"...And God will wipe away every tear from their eyes...no more death, sorrow, nor crying."
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RE: PASTOR ARNOLD MURRAY - 11/10/2008 1:24:48 PM
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GodsMusic
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quote:
ORIGINAL: tomhillbilly
ok regarding the trouble-maker video and pastor murray "going for his 9mm" it sounds about like the right thing to do with someone who goes there just to disrupt peoples religious freedom.
Are you serious? Murray said "use this 9mm on that kid". That would have been MURDER in any U.S. Court.
All that aside, the man is a heretic.
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RE: PASTOR ARNOLD MURRAY - 11/10/2008 3:09:19 PM
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tomhillbilly
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ok im gonna try my best to respond to everyone as best i can starting from last to first.
godsmusic the fact is this idiot was disrupting pastor murrays teaching. he was interfering with americans rights of religious freedoms for starters. This person also has the freedom to choose another church if he did not agree with the teachings. I never said they shouldve murdered the guy,but a pastor should protect his flock;and sometimes fight off the wolves
Kat D like ive said ive been studying with pastor murray and the only two things of these accusations i have heard pastor murray teach is serpent seed and a prior earth age. neither of these really effect me or my choice to follow the rest and much more applicable teachings of Gods word, which pastor murray does a fantastic job of teaching. as for the alleged 9mm people seem so upset about; the video i saw cut off and i never saw a gun at all. besides, i believe in people carrying guns at all times so it wouldnt bother me if he had a double barrel shotgun leaning against his desk. This person that had a problem with pastor murrays teachings was clearly wrong and rude as well. So who is to say how far someone like that might go. not too long ago there was a church where a couple people got shot
id like to quickly respond to the racism and lsck of credentials claims
we all know in 1948 israel became a nation again mostly sponsored by the british. Im assuming at some point the tribes were scattered. regardless of the details of this "scattering"; where they might have went or who they might have mixed in with. i dont see how it is racist even if it is wrong/historically accurate.
credentials: i believe pastor murray when he says he is a veteran of the united states marine corps.SEMPER FI! shedding blood for this great nation where we have the religious freedoms is all the credentials i need.
thanx all,if i missed anything please let me know
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RE: PASTOR ARNOLD MURRAY - 11/10/2008 3:49:55 PM
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Kat_D
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quote:
ORIGINAL: tomhillbilly
ok im gonna try my best to respond to everyone as best i can starting from last to first.
godsmusic the fact is this idiot was disrupting pastor murrays teaching. he was interfering with americans rights of religious freedoms for starters. This person also has the freedom to choose another church if he did not agree with the teachings. I never said they shouldve murdered the guy,but a pastor should protect his flock;and sometimes fight off the wolves
Kat D like ive said ive been studying with pastor murray and the only two things of these accusations i have heard pastor murray teach is serpent seed and a prior earth age. neither of these really effect me or my choice to follow the rest and much more applicable teachings of Gods word, which pastor murray does a fantastic job of teaching. as for the alleged 9mm people seem so upset about; the video i saw cut off and i never saw a gun at all. besides, i believe in people carrying guns at all times so it wouldnt bother me if he had a double barrel shotgun leaning against his desk. This person that had a problem with pastor murrays teachings was clearly wrong and rude as well. So who is to say how far someone like that might go. not too long ago there was a church where a couple people got shot
id like to quickly respond to the racism and lsck of credentials claims
we all know in 1948 israel became a nation again mostly sponsored by the british. Im assuming at some point the tribes were scattered. regardless of the details of this "scattering"; where they might have went or who they might have mixed in with. i dont see how it is racist even if it is wrong/historically accurate.
credentials: i believe pastor murray when he says he is a veteran of the united states marine corps.SEMPER FI! shedding blood for this great nation where we have the religious freedoms is all the credentials i need.
thanx all,if i missed anything please let me know
So, in other words, you started this thread asking why people tell you not to study with this guy and when we try tell you why, you really are not open to hearing it. So, what's the point?
Something to think on: I can Google my pastor (who is pretty well known and on the radio in most states) till the cows come home and no accusations of false teaching, heresy, cults, etc. come up. Google Arnold Murray and those accusations go on for multiple pages. Where there's smoke there's usually is fire! 
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"...And God will wipe away every tear from their eyes...no more death, sorrow, nor crying."
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RE: PASTOR ARNOLD MURRAY - 11/10/2008 4:33:18 PM
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tomhillbilly
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kat my only point is a good healthy debate. i made clear that in my opinion pastor murray is a fantastic bible teacher.
the chapter-by-chapter verse-by-verse format also strikes me as fantastic and i am surprised this isnt the norm instead of such a seeming rarity
tell me who your pastor is so i can check them out please. i recall jesus preaching that not everyone would receive him or his apostles,and thathis teachings would bring persecution. I could raise the question that if your pastor has no accusations of false teachings,heresy,cults,etc. then maybe they are just doing the normal "ear scratching" instead of teaching Gods word chapter-by-chapter and verse by verse.
im convinced that Gods word will always offend some people in this world,including christians. Isnt that the whole purpose of bible teaching and the job of a pastor?
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RE: PASTOR ARNOLD MURRAY - 11/10/2008 5:11:39 PM
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earthless
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tom,
I noticed you didn't respond to my post where I outlined some very specific reasons why a self-professing Christian should not pay heed to this false teacher. Any thoughts or it doesn't matter?
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RE: PASTOR ARNOLD MURRAY - 11/11/2008 3:22:32 AM
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tomhillbilly
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Earthless i tried my best to answer all the claims ive heard. Most of them are easily dismissable and not part of his teachings or i would have heard them. Keep in mind that pastor murrays bible teaching format is different from almost all other preachers,at least ALL that ive seen.
the trinity which seems the cornerstone of most american christians ive addressed and pastor murray teaches the trinity. Just because he interprets slightly differnt or has a differnt way of explaining does not make him a heritic. as far as these other controvercial teachings i find them a bit odd but pastor murray seems to explain them in fiarly reasonable way. The ones ive heard most are the serpent seed, first earth-age and what you described as the "christian identity movement". I never heard pastor murray say that all jews in israel were spawned by the devil.
what i have heard from his serpent seed teaching is that "we're all Gods children" and that God "loves all his children". Also that everyone has the same chance for salvation and,particularly going back to genesis says that "God created all the races and called it good". He makes clear that all people are equal and he is not a racist.
lastly, i have no idea who this "christian research center" is or anyone else that posts things on the inernet. All i saw was a quote from 1990 or referance to a tape or video from a library. This kind of "research" seems to be focused on nothing but the negative and never mentions at all any of the good bible teaching. I prefer to focus more on the positive parts of a persons preaching/teaching. For example, the only tv i have is free antenna tv but i listen in on sundays to a couple of locals preachers, jack van impe and charles stanley. I also like joyce meyer even though she seems like more of an "ear-scratcher"
rapture- Im personally not a rapture follower, but im not as harsh with those who are as pastor murray seems. This is another "side-issue" if you will, and we cant change it one way or the other anyway. It seems clear to me,however that anti-christ comes first so i appreciate concern that people are going to be deceived and think its jesus.
i hope i responded to the points in your outline earthless
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RE: PASTOR ARNOLD MURRAY - 11/11/2008 8:04:26 AM
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earthless
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The above is like saying that Mormonism is biblical as long as we only focus on the good.
Free-will is a wonderful thing and you have decided to bury your head in the sand about the facts of his false, hateful and racist teachings.
Take care.
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RE: PASTOR ARNOLD MURRAY - 11/11/2008 9:20:25 AM
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tomhillbilly
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earthless what ive said has nothing to do with mormonism being biblical or not
i agree that free will is a wonderful thing as well. i have not buried my head in the sand,im here discussing things on the forums. The main thing i have said is that i admire the chapter-by-chapter verse-by-verse format and a couple strange interpretations dont take away from the amount of good,solid bible teaching pastor murray does.
as far as hateful and racist teachings i still dont havent seen any proof at all of this. Quite the opposite really as ive repeatedly seen him giving advice to people about maintaining peace with their relatives. example "love your """"" just dont talk religion with them"
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RE: PASTOR ARNOLD MURRAY - 11/11/2008 9:35:31 AM
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earthless
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quote:
ORIGINAL: tomhillbilly
earthless what ive said has nothing to do with mormonism being biblical or not
The illustration fits the comparison.
quote:
ORIGINAL: tomhillbilly
i agree that free will is a wonderful thing as well. i have not buried my head in the sand,im here discussing things on the forums. The main thing i have said is that i admire the chapter-by-chapter verse-by-verse format
But what good does that format do when the teacher of such is a false teacher?
quote:
ORIGINAL: tomhillbilly
and a couple strange interpretations dont take away from the amount of good,solid bible teaching pastor murray does.
That's a very nice (and wrong) way of putting it. Like I said about the Mormonism comparison.. now I will make a Jehovah Witness one. What you're using as an excuse to listen to a false teacher is the same one someone could make about studying the Bible with a group of Jehovah Witnesses and then claim that besides some "strange interpretations..." that doesn't take away from the amount of good they may share.
Poison is still poison even when it is sugar coated.
quote:
ORIGINAL: tomhillbilly
as far as hateful and racist teachings i still dont havent seen any proof at all of this.
The proof is in the thread whose link was provided for you in this thread. You can lead a horse to water.....
quote:
ORIGINAL: tomhillbilly
Quite the opposite really as ive repeatedly seen him giving advice to people about maintaining peace with their relatives. example "love your """"" just dont talk religion with them"
Yes, all the while he wanted to shoot someone during the taping of his show because the person disagreed with him.
All the while he believes and teaches that Jews are half demonic.
All the while he associates with white supremacist groups.
Yes, quite opposite.
You asked a question - facts were presented - you want to ignore them and continue on. Good luck to you, you won't be able to say you did not know.
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RE: PASTOR ARNOLD MURRAY - 11/11/2008 10:53:55 AM
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tomhillbilly
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earthless i have tried my best to explain that these accusations are wrong. I have no idea who this christian research center is. For all i know they might be a bunch of atheists.
I have to wonder if people are open minded at all or they are just going on here-say. So far you have mentioned mormons and jehovas witnesses. Im not familiar with mormons but i will say th jehovas witnesses ive met seemed like pretty nice folks. Godly living may seem odd to people that live more like the world is all i can figure.
as far as this myspace video with arnold murray portrayed as some sort of gun crazed maniac i went to the link and it cut off part-way thru and i never saw a gun or him hurt anyone. Besides, he was only reacting to a trouble maker that obviously doesnt have very good manners or respect peoples religious freedoms. Hard to understand why people would support a trouble-maker in this case.(maybe the scriptures that talk about people calling good evil and evil good would apply)
as far as jews being half demonic or associating with white supremacist groups, this is just utterly ridiculous and ive studied with pastor murray long enough to know for sure. This is probably more because pastor murray doesnt water down the bible into a nice little liberal message that wont offend anyone, and he holds to old fashioned values.
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RE: PASTOR ARNOLD MURRAY - 11/11/2008 11:07:12 AM
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earthless
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quote:
ORIGINAL: tomhillbilly
earthless i have tried my best to explain that these accusations are wrong.
How are they wrong when they are documented with Sheperd's Chapel own publications, audio and video documentation from Arnold Murray, etc..
quote:
ORIGINAL: tomhillbilly
I have no idea who this christian research center is. For all i know they might be a bunch of atheists.
The evidence presented in the other thread are links from a plethora of organizations. But have you even read that thread?
quote:
ORIGINAL: tomhillbilly
I have to wonder if people are open minded at all or they are just going on here-say. So far you have mentioned mormons and jehovas witnesses. Im not familiar with mormons but i will say th jehovas witnesses ive met seemed like pretty nice folks.
I do not doubt they are some very nice people. But that does not detract from the fact that their beliefs are unbiblical and lead to death.
quote:
ORIGINAL: tomhillbilly
Godly living may seem odd to people that live more like the world is all i can figure.
as far as this myspace video with arnold murray portrayed as some sort of gun crazed maniac i went to the link and it cut off part-way thru and i never saw a gun or him hurt anyone. Besides, he was only reacting to a trouble maker that obviously doesnt have very good manners or respect peoples religious freedoms.
I am a cop and it is illegal to do what he was doing in that video. It is enough to arrest him on probable cause. Plus, how is that a way for a pastor, for a Christian, to react to someone who does not agree with him?
But that is all besides the point - the crux is that his teachings are abhorrent.
quote:
ORIGINAL: tomhillbilly
Hard to understand why people would support a trouble-maker in this case.(maybe the scriptures that talk about people calling good evil and evil good would apply)
as far as jews being half demonic or associating with white supremacist groups, this is just utterly ridiculous and ive studied with pastor murray long enough to know for sure.
The evidence is there for anyone to see, no excuses.
quote:
ORIGINAL: tomhillbilly
This is probably more because pastor murray doesnt water down the bible into a nice little liberal message that wont offend anyone, and he holds to old fashioned values.
Anyone that knows me here knows that I am the last person here that can be accused of watering down the Bible or adhering to a nice little liberal message that won't offend anyone.
Ha ha.. man what a hoot.
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RE: PASTOR ARNOLD MURRAY - 11/11/2008 11:59:42 AM
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tomhillbilly
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i feel safer already knowing your a cop. I hope you magically appear and protect me in the case of some trouble-maker deciding to pick me to abuse. Why isnt the focus here on the trouble maker instead of a pastor teaching Gods word?
Ill stick with pastor murray, who does not waste time pointing fingers and instead teaches Gods word chapter-by-chapter and verse-by-verse, and not waste time on this "plethera of organizations" that does.
I gotta trust what ive seen for myself studying with pastor murray over these higher critics
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RE: PASTOR ARNOLD MURRAY - 11/11/2008 12:17:35 PM
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earthless
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quote:
ORIGINAL: tomhillbilly
i feel safer already knowing your a cop. I hope you magically appear and protect me in the case of some trouble-maker deciding to pick me to abuse.
Nice.
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ORIGINAL: tomhillbilly
Why isnt the focus here on the trouble maker instead of a pastor teaching Gods word?
My focus was always that until you kept wanting to make light of Arnold's threat with a deadly weapon.
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ORIGINAL: tomhillbilly
Ill stick with pastor murray,
I will stick with Jesus and His Word. Like someone else duly noted a few posts back, you came here asking for Christians take on Arnold's teachings and yet when that was presented you're not interested in the facts.
Seems a bit off.
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ORIGINAL: tomhillbilly
who does not waste time pointing fingers
You're right, he just points 9MMs'.
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ORIGINAL: tomhillbilly
and instead teaches Gods word chapter-by-chapter and verse-by-verse, and not waste time on this "plethera of organizations" that does.
I gotta trust what ive seen for myself studying with pastor murray over these higher critics
Like I have said before, you have been warned and given sources for you to inform yourself. Not wanting to do so and saying "I'll stick with pastor murray" is your choice.
My only task is test all things in light of Scripture and always be ready to answer any questions people ask about the Word.
Take care.
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Probing Today's Religious Movements | Promoting Doctrinal Discernment & Critical Thinking | Providing Reasons for Christian Faith & Ethics
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RE: PASTOR ARNOLD MURRAY - 11/11/2008 3:25:47 PM
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DayStar43
Posts: 39
Joined: 3/31/2007
From: Texas
Status: offline
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Years ago I was in a group. The followers of Arnold Murray made astounding claims for him. One of these claims was that a group of Israeli archaeologists had found an artifact that had writing on it that they could not read. Arnold Murray was called in to read and translate it for them. They were so grateful.
Oh yes, and there is the doctorate that can't be produced. He's supposed to have one but it can't be found. His group has said he's rewriting his thesis but that does not happen once it is submitted. You don't get to go get it and say I want to redo it.
Arnold Murray's followers are like all followers of false teachers. They cannot study the Bible on their on and let scripture interpret scripture. They have to rely on someone else to tell them what the scripture is saying, though that is the someone else's own interpretation. Arnold Murray is a Christian Identity teacher/pastor. He ranks along with the old Worldwide Church of God/Herbert W. Armstrong.
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