|
Users viewing this topic:
none
|
|
Login  | |
|
Obey your leaders - 10/22/2008 11:15:37 PM
|
|
|
diz71266
Posts: 26
Joined: 6/20/2007
From: NJ
Status: offline
|
This dialogue came up in a previous thread I started and tonight in a bible study, I'd really love to hear your opinions on it.
Romans 13 says to obey your leaders because they are Gods servants that he chose,in the previous thread the subject of Adolf Hitler came up and there was good discourse about it.
My question is this: In light of Romans 13,were this country's forefathers in sin when they rebelled against the British at the time of the American Revolution? If you say no, what scripture would you use to back that up?
To take it a step further, if our current religious freedom becomes in jeopardy should we fight for it or just sit back and let it be out of obedience?
|
|
|
|
|
RE: Obey your leaders - 10/23/2008 6:53:47 AM
|
|
|
DaveW
Posts: 4166
Joined: 4/12/2005
From: MD suburbs of Washington DC
Status: offline
|
Act 5:27 When they had brought them, they stood them before the Council. The high priest questioned them,
Act 5:28 saying, "We gave you strict orders not to continue teaching in this name, and yet, you have filled Jerusalem with your teaching and intend to bring this man's blood upon us."
Act 5:29 But Peter and the apostles answered, "We must obey God rather than men.
Yes there is a command to obey civil and religious leadership.
HOWEVER, when that leadership gives orders that conflict with God and His written Word (Bible) we must, as the apostles said, "...obey God rather than men."
_____________________________
Avatar is DW holding Saphira at her first birthday party and myself holding Louvena at 30 months!
We are now grandparents TWICE!!
====================================
Our CD is now available here:
http://cdbaby.com/cd/dswaggoner
|
|
|
|
|
RE: Obey your leaders - 10/23/2008 7:05:08 AM
|
|
|
ffbruce
Posts: 271
Joined: 10/14/2008
Status: offline
|
It's important to understand the context of Romans 13.
The new Christians Paul was writing to were wrestling with a very deep question: If I'm part of the kingdom of God, am I still part of an earthly kingdom? And what do I do about the laws of the land in this earthly kingdom I'm really not a part of any more?
So Paul is making it clear that Christians are not above the laws of their country (kingdom). If we live in, say, the United States - we have to obey civic laws just like everybody else.
|
|
|
|
|
RE: Obey your leaders - 10/23/2008 8:46:46 AM
|
|
|
timf
Posts: 462
Joined: 10/20/2006
Status: offline
|
My question is this: In light of Romans 13,were this country's forefathers in sin when they rebelled against the British at the time of the American Revolution?
Yes
1 Samuel 15:23
For rebellion is as the sin of witchcraft, and stubbornness is as iniquity and idolatry. Because thou hast rejected the word of the LORD, he hath also rejected thee from being king.
Satan has used his most effective tool (public education) to indoctrinate generations of Americans with the idea that nothing was more holy than the American revolution. The idea that Christians should make things "right" with the world elevates self-righteousness and undermines faith in our Lord.
It is past time for Christians to take an honest look at how "patriotism" can divert faith in God to pride in self.
|
|
|
|
|
RE: Obey your leaders - 10/23/2008 8:55:21 AM
|
|
|
JimboFletch
Posts: 6364
Joined: 4/11/2005
Status: offline
|
quote:
ORIGINAL: timf
My question is this: In light of Romans 13,were this country's forefathers in sin when they rebelled against the British at the time of the American Revolution?
Yes
1 Samuel 15:23
For rebellion is as the sin of witchcraft, and stubbornness is as iniquity and idolatry. Because thou hast rejected the word of the LORD, he hath also rejected thee from being king.
Satan has used his most effective tool (public education) to indoctrinate generations of Americans with the idea that nothing was more holy than the American revolution. The idea that Christians should make things "right" with the world elevates self-righteousness and undermines faith in our Lord.
It is past time for Christians to take an honest look at how "patriotism" can divert faith in God to pride in self.
Tim, the verse you chose undermines your whole position because it was addressed to King Saul for rebelling against God, not to someone rebelling against an earthly king or government.
However, I do agree that patriotism is sometimes given too much place in churches in the US.
|
|
|
|
|
RE: Obey your leaders - 10/23/2008 9:50:03 AM
|
|
|
AboundinginHisGrace
Posts: 410
Joined: 4/28/2008
Status: offline
|
quote:
ORIGINAL: JimboFletch
quote:
ORIGINAL: timf
My question is this: In light of Romans 13,were this country's forefathers in sin when they rebelled against the British at the time of the American Revolution?
Yes
1 Samuel 15:23
For rebellion is as the sin of witchcraft, and stubbornness is as iniquity and idolatry. Because thou hast rejected the word of the LORD, he hath also rejected thee from being king.
Satan has used his most effective tool (public education) to indoctrinate generations of Americans with the idea that nothing was more holy than the American revolution. The idea that Christians should make things "right" with the world elevates self-righteousness and undermines faith in our Lord.
It is past time for Christians to take an honest look at how "patriotism" can divert faith in God to pride in self.
Tim, the verse you chose undermines your whole position because it was addressed to King Saul for rebelling against God, not to someone rebelling against an earthly king or government.
However, I do agree that patriotism is sometimes given too much place in churches in the US.
I agree with you Jimbo that verse wasn't talking about the samething. I also agree with you on Patriotism, I hear people talk about how you are sinning if you do not vote, I do not know any scripture to back that statement. I do however vote, but I wouldn't think that I was sinning if I didn't. A lot of people think patriotism go hand in hand with christianity and i have to disagree with that. I am not saying patriotism is bad, but Christ must be first not your country.
_____________________________
Ephesians 2:8 For by grace you have been saved through faith, and that not of yourselves; it is the gift of God, 9 not of works, lest anyone should boast.
|
|
|
|
|
RE: Obey your leaders - 10/23/2008 10:20:45 AM
|
|
|
deermousie
Posts: 1944
Joined: 9/26/2007
Status: offline
|
Ooh, good topic. I can't give verses or arguments, but I know this has been hashed out thoroughly for this reason: the American Revolution was also called the Presbyterian Revolution or the Black Revolution (because of preachers in black robes) because it was preached from pulpits in America. They had their ducks in a row.
So, someone please, do some digging and find out what these godly men were preaching in the early and mid-1700s, and why. There's a good answer there, but I don't have time to do this today. I'd love to hear whatever you guys find.
_____________________________
Want to know where a certain word or phrase in the Bible is found? www.biblegateway.com Yay!
|
|
|
|
|
RE: Obey your leaders - 10/23/2008 1:19:00 PM
|
|
|
d4nnyb0y02
Posts: 318
Joined: 9/24/2008
Status: offline
|
quote:
ORIGINAL: diz71266
This dialogue came up in a previous thread I started and tonight in a bible study, I'd really love to hear your opinions on it.
Romans 13 says to obey your leaders because they are Gods servants that he chose,in the previous thread the subject of Adolf Hitler came up and there was good discourse about it.
My question is this: In light of Romans 13,were this country's forefathers in sin when they rebelled against the British at the time of the American Revolution? If you say no, what scripture would you use to back that up?
To take it a step further, if our current religious freedom becomes in jeopardy should we fight for it or just sit back and let it be out of obedience?
Good question, and I don't know... but honestly... it is possible. If I was there back in the day, I honestly think I probably wouldn't have rebelled, but I don't know. Even if they were in sin, I am certainly not impervious to sin.
Daniel rebelled... by not worshiping a foreign God and praying at appointed times. As did the three who went into the furnace :). If the law of the land prohibits our relationship with the Lord... or causes us to braek his law... then His Word usurps authority over the law of the land.
_____________________________
OSAS is the Gospel.
(Gal 1:6;5:4) I marvel that ye are so soon removed from him that called you into the grace of Christ unto another gospel: Christ is become of no effect unto you, whosoever of you are justified by the law; ye are fallen from grace
|
|
|
|
|
RE: Obey your leaders - 10/24/2008 12:06:05 AM
|
|
|
diz71266
Posts: 26
Joined: 6/20/2007
From: NJ
Status: offline
|
There were many reasons for the American Revolution not just one
but check out for a minute this article on the quartering act of 1765.....
1774
Next the Coercive or "Intolerable" Acts followed, a new version of the 1765 Quartering Act was enacted by the English Parliament to provide housing for the British troops in occupied houses and taverns. Husbands worried for their wives' and daughters' safety and there were reasons for such.
In a letter sent by Captain Francis Rawdon to his uncle the Earl of Huntington he described: "...that he appreciated Southern women because they did not publicly take issue after being raped by British soldiers. As for the women of Staten Island, they were 'fair nymphs' for the British soldiers, who were 'as riotous as satyrs. A girl cannot step into the bushes to pluck a rose without running the most imminent risk of being ravished, and they are so little accustomed to these vigorous methods that they don't bear them with the proper resignation, and of consequence we have most entertaining courts martial every day.'" (Susan Brownmiller in Against Our Will, under Riots, Progroms and Revolutions)
What about the second part of my question, if we were under a government that became even more and more oppressive (in the example above even our own wives & daughters wouldn't be safe) should we just allow the evil to continue? or fight it?
For me I want so bad to follow The Lords commandments,but if Romans 13 really is a commandment and not just sound advice then I would be guilty of breaking it as well,I would have to protect my family even if that meant preventative measures like Revolution.
|
|
|
|
|
RE: Obey your leaders - 10/24/2008 2:08:34 PM
|
|
|
terryjohn
Posts: 469
Joined: 3/23/2007
Status: offline
|
Leadership in Christ means something totally different to that of leadership of men. Even our Lords leadership is different for He says if you love me you will keep my commandments. Hence, any man who causes men not to love him cannot expect others to obey him for in reality he is not a leader of men. By all means follow men but be sure they follow Christ and not satan.
Far too many men have believed that strength is a sign of leadership but it has never been for far too many of their so called followers are but abiding their time until they can violently take leadership from such a man. In effect if you live by the sword you shall die by the sword. You could also say that if leadership is gained through fear and intimidation then such only justifies others attempting the same for if an evil man gains control through violence and justifies it through the use of the same, why then does he complain that others follow his example?
|
|
|
|
|
RE: Obey your leaders - 10/25/2008 2:38:27 AM
|
|
|
bravjim
Posts: 395
Joined: 10/8/2008
Status: offline
|
I do not beleive it was sin. There was an oppressive government, as well as an oppressive and corrupt church that had it's hands in too many government institutions back then. They certainly believed that what they was doing was God's will, as can be seen from the writings of that time, as well as from the constitution and Delclaration of Independence. They based the constitution as well as the Declaration of Independence on principles from God's word. They also went to God in prayer, combined with fasting, on a regular basis. I think they acted according to God's will, and He led them in their rebellion. It is similar to today, when we bring our concerns to God in prayer, He instructs us or leads us as to what we should do.
_____________________________
I say then: Walk in the Spirit, and you shall not fulfilll the lust of the flesh.
|
|
|
|
|
RE: Obey your leaders - 10/25/2008 10:53:53 AM
|
|
|
chrisovery
Posts: 147
Joined: 10/6/2007
Status: offline
|
i believe that gods will was done. i also believe that romans 13 is taken way out of context. many people use it in todays world as a form to control people. yes this is even in churches today. we are to obey god over all things period.
_____________________________
It is utterly impossible to govern a nation with out the Lord Jesus Christ and the bible.
|
|
|
|
|
RE: Obey your leaders - 10/26/2008 11:45:39 PM
|
|
|
diz71266
Posts: 26
Joined: 6/20/2007
From: NJ
Status: offline
|
quote:
ORIGINAL: bravjim
I do not believe it was sin. There was an oppressive government, as well as an oppressive and corrupt church that had it's hands in too many government institutions back then. They certainly believed that what they was doing was God's will, as can be seen from the writings of that time, as well as from the constitution and Declaration of Independence. They based the constitution as well as the Declaration of Independence on principles from God's word. They also went to God in prayer, combined with fasting, on a regular basis. I think they acted according to God's will, and He led them in their rebellion. It is similar to today, when we bring our concerns to God in prayer, He instructs us or leads us as to what we should do.
You know bravjim, I tend to agree with you, but my only problem is I need something scriptural.For example we know that in Ephesians and Collosians Paul says for slaves to obey their earthly masters...
(Ephesians 6)
5Slaves, obey your earthly masters with respect and fear, and with sincerity of heart, just as you would obey Christ. 6Obey them not only to win their favor when their eye is on you, but like slaves of Christ, doing the will of God from your heart
Pretty much the same thing in Collosians 3
However in 1 Corinthians 7
Paul says:
21Were you a slave when you were called? Don't let it trouble you—although if you can gain your freedom, do so. 22For he who was a slave when he was called by the Lord is the Lord's freedman; similarly, he who was a free man when he was called is Christ's slave. 23You were bought at a price; do not become slaves of men.
See, so we sort of have an exception of the rule on the slave issue
But on Obeying a leader (or government) that is evil there needs to be an exception to Romans 13 if we are to conclude that our forefathers were not in error.
So far the only thing close is the Acts 5 Reference brought up by DaveW earlier in this thread,and to use that reference you would have to be sure that what motivated the forefathers was their understanding that what they were doing was absolutely Gods will. Furthermore, even if they thought it to be Gods will,doesnt mean they werent mistaken.
|
|
|
|
 New Messages |
 No New Messages |
 Hot Topic w/ New Messages |
 Hot Topic w/o New Messages |
 Locked w/ New Messages |
 Locked w/o New Messages |
|
 Post New Thread
Reply to Message
Post New Poll
Submit Vote
Delete My Own Post
Delete My Own Thread
Rate Posts |
|
|
Forum Tools
Printable Version
