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Obama and Congressional Democrats - which one is lying? - 11/2/2008 2:33:05 PM
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Dubya
Posts: 1017
Joined: 10/25/2006
From: Texas
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On Obama's website, he claims he and Joe Biden will increase our ground forces by 65,000 soldiers and 27,000 Marines.
Barney Frank and Congressioinal Democrats are calling for a 25% cut in defense spending.
How can these two statements be reconciled?
I don't know about anyone else but this sounds pretty scary to me if both statements are true.
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RE: Obama and Congressional Democrats - which one is ly... - 11/2/2008 3:09:45 PM
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iluvatar
Posts: 2029
Joined: 4/12/2005
Status: online
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Dubya
On Obama's website, he claims he and Joe Biden will increase our ground forces by 65,000 soldiers and 27,000 Marines.
Barney Frank and Congressioinal Democrats are calling for a 25% cut in defense spending.
How can these two statements be reconciled?
They probably can't. But that doesn't mean either one is lying.
-Dan.
_____________________________
Well, I've been to one world fair, a picnic, and a rodeo, and that's the stupidest thing I ever heard come over a set of earphones.
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RE: Obama and Congressional Democrats - which one is ly... - 11/2/2008 3:16:41 PM
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rjd628
Posts: 43
Joined: 10/10/2008
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Dubya
On Obama's website, he claims he and Joe Biden will increase our ground forces by 65,000 soldiers and 27,000 Marines.
Barney Frank and Congressioinal Democrats are calling for a 25% cut in defense spending.
How can these two statements be reconciled?
I don't know about anyone else but this sounds pretty scary to me if both statements are true.
65,000 army + 27,000 marines is only a 6-7% increase in active US military personnel, and the recurring DoD budget is only 25% personnel expenses. So that head count increase would be a 1-2% increase in recurring military spending - a rounding error on the overall budget (but only because service personnel are underpaid).
The 25% cut would be to exit Iraq - $188bn in irregular/emergency appropriation spending for 2008, compared to a $552bn recurring DoD budget. Eliminate the Iraq appropriation and military spending is 25% lower.
Pretty simple really - not saying it's a good idea - but the numbers stack up with the Democratic military plans.
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RE: Obama and Congressional Democrats - which one is ly... - 11/2/2008 3:18:45 PM
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rjd628
Posts: 43
Joined: 10/10/2008
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quote:
ORIGINAL: iluvatar
quote:
ORIGINAL: Dubya
On Obama's website, he claims he and Joe Biden will increase our ground forces by 65,000 soldiers and 27,000 Marines.
Barney Frank and Congressioinal Democrats are calling for a 25% cut in defense spending.
How can these two statements be reconciled?
They probably can't. But that doesn't mean either one is lying.
-Dan.
Indeed. Democrat is not a synonym for liar.
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RE: Obama and Congressional Democrats - which one is ly... - 11/2/2008 6:03:12 PM
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Dubya
Posts: 1017
Joined: 10/25/2006
From: Texas
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: rjd628
quote:
ORIGINAL: Dubya
On Obama's website, he claims he and Joe Biden will increase our ground forces by 65,000 soldiers and 27,000 Marines.
Barney Frank and Congressioinal Democrats are calling for a 25% cut in defense spending.
How can these two statements be reconciled?
I don't know about anyone else but this sounds pretty scary to me if both statements are true.
65,000 army + 27,000 marines is only a 6-7% increase in active US military personnel, and the recurring DoD budget is only 25% personnel expenses. So that head count increase would be a 1-2% increase in recurring military spending - a rounding error on the overall budget (but only because service personnel are underpaid).
The 25% cut would be to exit Iraq - $188bn in irregular/emergency appropriation spending for 2008, compared to a $552bn recurring DoD budget. Eliminate the Iraq appropriation and military spending is 25% lower.
Pretty simple really - not saying it's a good idea - but the numbers stack up with the Democratic military plans.
The biggest problem with your equation is that you forgot Obama says that he would virtually move the military from Iraq to Afghanistan.
He has also hedged on any immediate exit from Iraq.
I still say both are not possible.
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RE: Obama and Congressional Democrats - which one is ly... - 11/2/2008 6:29:44 PM
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iluvatar
Posts: 2029
Joined: 4/12/2005
Status: online
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Dubya
The biggest problem with your equation is that you forgot Obama says that he would virtually move the military from Iraq to Afghanistan.
He has also hedged on any immediate exit from Iraq.
I still say both are not possible.
Perhaps, but that still doesn't mean that either one is lying. If you and I want to order a pizza, and you say you want extra cheese, while I say I want ham, bacon & pineapple, neither of us would be lying (though I would be right), we'd just be striving for different things.
-Dan.
_____________________________
Well, I've been to one world fair, a picnic, and a rodeo, and that's the stupidest thing I ever heard come over a set of earphones.
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RE: Obama and Congressional Democrats - which one is ly... - 11/2/2008 6:37:01 PM
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Dubya
Posts: 1017
Joined: 10/25/2006
From: Texas
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: iluvatar
quote:
ORIGINAL: Dubya
The biggest problem with your equation is that you forgot Obama says that he would virtually move the military from Iraq to Afghanistan.
He has also hedged on any immediate exit from Iraq.
I still say both are not possible.
Perhaps, but that still doesn't mean that either one is lying. If you and I want to order a pizza, and you say you want extra cheese, while I say I want ham, bacon & pineapple, neither of us would be lying (though I would be right), we'd just be striving for different things.
-Dan.
A significant increase in military personnel and a very significant cut in defnese spending do not add up... even for those who did not do well in math.
The only way it could be compatible is for the cut to come in weapons development. Barney Frank, last week, made the statement that "we don't need all those 'fancy weapons'" - he made that statement at the same time he was promoting the 25% cut in defense spending.
It is the advanced weaponry ('fancy weapons') which have actually saved lives - lives of our troops as well as limiting the needless deaths of civilians. Cutting funding for such programs would be insane.
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RE: Obama and Congressional Democrats - which one is ly... - 11/2/2008 6:49:38 PM
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iluvatar
Posts: 2029
Joined: 4/12/2005
Status: online
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Dubya
The only way it could be compatible is for the cut to come in weapons development. Barney Frank, last week, made the statement that "we don't need all those 'fancy weapons'" - he made that statement at the same time he was promoting the 25% cut in defense spending.
I'm aware of his statements. I'm not advocating either his or Obama's proposals at the moment; and you may be correct that they're not compatible. But the title of the thread is "which one is lying?"
I'm answering that question.
-Dan.
_____________________________
Well, I've been to one world fair, a picnic, and a rodeo, and that's the stupidest thing I ever heard come over a set of earphones.
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RE: Obama and Congressional Democrats - which one is ly... - 11/2/2008 8:15:59 PM
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rjd628
Posts: 43
Joined: 10/10/2008
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Dubya
quote:
ORIGINAL: rjd628
quote:
ORIGINAL: Dubya
On Obama's website, he claims he and Joe Biden will increase our ground forces by 65,000 soldiers and 27,000 Marines.
Barney Frank and Congressioinal Democrats are calling for a 25% cut in defense spending.
How can these two statements be reconciled?
I don't know about anyone else but this sounds pretty scary to me if both statements are true.
65,000 army + 27,000 marines is only a 6-7% increase in active US military personnel, and the recurring DoD budget is only 25% personnel expenses. So that head count increase would be a 1-2% increase in recurring military spending - a rounding error on the overall budget (but only because service personnel are underpaid).
The 25% cut would be to exit Iraq - $188bn in irregular/emergency appropriation spending for 2008, compared to a $552bn recurring DoD budget. Eliminate the Iraq appropriation and military spending is 25% lower.
Pretty simple really - not saying it's a good idea - but the numbers stack up with the Democratic military plans.
The biggest problem with your equation is that you forgot Obama says that he would virtually move the military from Iraq to Afghanistan.
He has also hedged on any immediate exit from Iraq.
I still say both are not possible.
But it's Barney Frank that wants the 25% cut in this discussion - and he's all for an immediate withdrawal as far an I remember (I have no idea what his position is on troops to Afghanistan). Obama and Frank are not the same person - as iluvatar put it with the pizza analogy. While I disagree (with Barney) about the need for hi-tech weaponry and research (hey the Air Force funded me briefly in grad school) I do think there is some wasteful spending that could be cut - certainly not enough to take 25% out of the total budget though without likely cutting needed programs.
You may be right that the two positions are not compatible - but without having a line item DoD budget I can't tell (and frankly, neither can you - though we can both state opinions). Either Frank or Biden is possibly wrong (perhaps both), but it is also quite possible that neither is actually lying.
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