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Obama's faith speech... - 11/8/2008 7:26:06 PM
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jbow
Posts: 629
Joined: 2/16/2007
From: Dixie
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http://obama.senate.gov/speech/060628-call_to_renewal/ From reading this I come to the conclusion that Rarack and I disagree about the mission of the church and the duty of the christian. I see the mission of the church as the spreading of the Gospel and the duty of the Christian as things like feeding the poor. I see the Church as the body of Christ and, as such, the feeding of the poor through the members is a function of the church but I understand the call of the church proper through the pastors and teachers and other offices, as the building up of the body for service, such as the feeding of the poor and the preaching of the gospel. It seem's that Obama see's the mission of the church as what I see as the duty of the individual believer. I know it may seem a small distinction but I think it is an important doctrinal issue. Also, according to the quote below, Obama was not called and regenerated but decided to affirm his faith and commit to learn what it means. That is, if it means what it says, man trying to come to salvation by his own efforts. Again, it may be semantics but the proof is in the pudding as they say and I see no proof in this pudding. I see no evidence of a change of heart... only a formalization, in the church, of what he was already involved in. How can you be born again before you discover His truth? Honestly, I am not trying to nitpick. I am trying to understand what he is saying and trying to line his positions with his faith. It is hard for me to believe that someone can have the Spirit of God, His Holy Spirit, and believe in things like removing all restrictions from abortion anfd in gay marriage. How can the Holyt Spirit tell me one thing and Obama something else. I can see differences in some non-essential doctrine due to erronious teaching on things like the 'end times' but I cannot see how there can be differences in deep moral issues. quote:
It was because of these newfound understandings that I was finally able to walk down the aisle of Trinity United Church of Christ on 95th Street in the Southside of Chicago one day and affirm my Christian faith. It came about as a choice, and not an epiphany. I didn't fall out in church. The questions I had didn't magically disappear. But kneeling beneath that cross on the South Side, I felt that I heard God's spirit beckoning me. I submitted myself to His will, and dedicated myself to discovering His truth. He also eqates Christanity to Islam and Judaism. People can sertainly do that but I don't see how a Christian can do it.. or for that matter a Jew or a Muslim... quote:
That's a path that has been shared by millions upon millions of Americans - evangelicals, Catholics, Protestants, Jews and Muslims alike; some since birth, others at certain turning points in their lives. It is not something they set apart from the rest of their beliefs and values. In fact, it is often what drives their beliefs and their values. He seems to put the problems of racism and poverty on the same level as the problems of people not having insurance or a job... quote:
After all, the problems of poverty and racism, the uninsured and the unemployed, are not simply technical problems in search of the perfect ten point plan. They are rooted in both societal indifference and individual callousness - in the imperfections of man. I agree with this though, (even though I am skeptical of the reaason for him saying it because I do not trust him yet). quote:
But what I am suggesting is this - secularists are wrong when they ask believers to leave their religion at the door before entering into the public square. Frederick Douglas, Abraham Lincoln, Williams Jennings Bryant, Dorothy Day, Martin Luther King - indeed, the majority of great reformers in American history - were not only motivated by faith, but repeatedly used religious language to argue for their cause. So to say that men and women should not inject their "personal morality" into public policy debates is a practical absurdity. Our law is by definition a codification of morality, much of it grounded in the Judeo-Christian tradition. This has always been true in my opinion. We were a Christian community when we were colonies but once we became a nation our constitution, whatever the framers may have assumed, made us the nation he describes... AND... I certainly believe that a president must, in his or her official capacity give no preference to one religion over another. However, personally, as a Christian, any person must give preference, in personal belief, to Christianity... just believing the Bible mandates it. quote:
Moreover, given the increasing diversity of America's population, the dangers of sectarianism have never been greater. Whatever we once were, we are no longer just a Christian nation; we are also a Jewish nation, a Muslim nation, a Buddhist nation, a Hindu nation, and a nation of nonbelievers. This, however, is a cop out... quote:
This brings me to my second point. Democracy demands that the religiously motivated translate their concerns into universal, rather than religion-specific, values. It requires that their proposals be subject to argument, and amenable to reason. I may be opposed to abortion for religious reasons, but if I seek to pass a law banning the practice, I cannot simply point to the teachings of my church or evoke God's will. I have to explain why abortion violates some principle that is accessible to people of all faiths, including those with no faith at all. We are a pluralistic society and that is what guarantees our religious freedom, but that does not make it ok to be a pluralistic person and I think that is what he is saying. I, for one, agree that we must maintain a pluralistic governmental policy in order to preserve our religious freedom. That may sound wrong but if we depart from it... whose doctrine are we to embrace? That of the King? I think we have been through that 3 to 4 hundred years ago in Europe, it was'nt good. quote:
Now this is going to be difficult for some who believe in the inerrancy of the Bible, as many evangelicals do. But in a pluralistic democracy, we have no choice. Politics depends on our ability to persuade each other of common aims based on a common reality. It involves the compromise, the art of what's possible. At some fundamental level, religion does not allow for compromise. It's the art of the impossible. If God has spoken, then followers are expected to live up to God's edicts, regardless of the consequences. To base one's life on such uncompromising commitments may be sublime, but to base our policy making on such commitments would be a dangerous thing. And if you doubt that, let me give you an example. We all know the story of Abraham and Isaac. Abraham is ordered by God to offer up his only son, and without argument, he takes Isaac to the mountaintop, binds him to an altar, and raises his knife, prepared to act as God has commanded. Of course, in the end God sends down an angel to intercede at the very last minute, and Abraham passes God's test of devotion. But it's fair to say that if any of us leaving this church saw Abraham on a roof of a building raising his knife, we would, at the very least, call the police and expect the Department of Children and Family Services to take Isaac away from Abraham. We would do so because we do not hear what Abraham hears, do not see what Abraham sees, true as those experiences may be. So the best we can do is act in accordance with those things that we all see, and that we all hear, be it common laws or basic reason. I guess in the end I think that a leader or lawmaker has to base their decisions on some moral belief or moral standard, on something from the heart. Some religious belief or the other has to be used. I prefer that it is Christianity. I prefer that it protects the innocent when possible. Ones stance on an issue like abortion has to be based on something. It is a deeply moral issue and must be based on the belief of the heart of the person, not on the views of others. That is what elections are for. If you're pro choice... vote for someone who is pro choice but one should not base their belief on plurality.. it does not apply and is dishonest.... IMO. The "fair minded" part is, well... rhetoric for the stupid, to be kind. To cite a letter from a "strong opponent of gay marriage and abortion" who only wants a "fair minded approach" is well... I can't think of a word I can use here. So Obama is pro choice but "fair minded" about it and that requires the pro life proponent to be "fair minded" also.. and thereby open to compromise. Not happening... that is really presumptive I think. Julien
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"These things I have spoken to you, so that in Me you may have peace In the world you have tribulation, but take courage; I have overcome the world."
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RE: Obama's faith speech... - 11/8/2008 7:58:11 PM
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Dancre
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Joined: 4/12/2005
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Hi Julien, I got the same thing from his speech, a sort of Can't we just get along? type of thing. Yes, we are to feed the poor, help the weak, etc, but Jesus is the center of it, not our morality. I found this very disturbing: Moreover, if we progressives shed some of these biases, we might recognize some overlapping values that both religious and secular people share when it comes to the moral and material direction of our country. We might recognize that the call to sacrifice on behalf of the next generation, the need to think in terms of "thou" and not just "I," resonates in religious congregations all across the country. And we might realize that we have the ability to reach out to the evangelical community and engage millions of religious Americans in the larger project of American renewal. What is the American Renewal? Have a Christianity that makes everyone happy??? Jesus never said He came to give us rose garden, but instead came to create a division. Son against father, mother against daughter. I have a feeling there will be two types of Christians in the next few years. Those who are Christ-centered and those who are man-centered. The Christ centered keep their eyes on Jesus, while the man-centered focus on getting along with everyone, no matter what the cost. Interesting. Yes, Christ centered christians ARE to walk in love at ALL times, but that doesn't mean we toss Jesus into the river. We can stand on His word and what He wants us to do and still walk in Him. If the great American Renewal means I have to 'get along with everyone' and discount Christ and His word, then I guess I won't be a part of it, and instead be a hater. kim
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RE: Obama's faith speech... - 11/8/2008 8:23:25 PM
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jbow
Posts: 629
Joined: 2/16/2007
From: Dixie
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quote:
If the great American Renewal means I have to 'get along with everyone' and discount Christ and His word, then I guess I won't be a part of it, and instead be a hater. I think that is the heart of it. Christianity is exclusive if nothing else, that is non-negotiable and it is exactly what they want us to give up. It will be a problem. J
_____________________________
"These things I have spoken to you, so that in Me you may have peace In the world you have tribulation, but take courage; I have overcome the world."
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RE: Obama's faith speech... - 11/8/2008 8:29:20 PM
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Dancre
Posts: 1307
Joined: 4/12/2005
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I think this is why God has been telling the church for the past few months, Remember Daniel 3. I believe this is where God will begin the separation between the wheat and the tarries. Persecution is on it's way, it's just a matter of allowing Christ to graft us in. Those who are man centered will fall away, while those who are christ centered will grow stronger and stronger. The seals are being opened. kim
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RE: Obama's faith speech... - 11/8/2008 8:34:36 PM
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Dancre
Posts: 1307
Joined: 4/12/2005
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Let me also add, this is a good time for those who are drifting it their faith to start to take it seriously. Be obedient to God, get into the Word, make it your plum line, get into a Christ-centered church and be ready. Be the smart Virgin and have enough lamp oil, don't be the foolish Virgin who had to go get some more while the Bridegroom was approaching and she missed Him. kim
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RE: Obama's faith speech... - 11/8/2008 8:40:07 PM
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jbow
Posts: 629
Joined: 2/16/2007
From: Dixie
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Dancre Let me also add, this is a good time for those who are drifting it their faith to start to take it seriously. Be obedient to God, get into the Word, make it your plum line, get into a Christ-centered church and be ready. Be the smart Virgin and have enough lamp oil, don't be the foolish Virgin who had to go get some more while the Bridegroom was approaching and she missed Him. kim I have been really slack in my prayer life. I am changing that. I still have a struggle with "the sin that so easily besets", but I keep getting up again. I think more prayer will help both me and others that I pray for. I sometimes wonder about how many things might be different in the lives of others if I were to pray more. I know that my walk would be more 'in the Spirit" and therefore I would not fulfill the lust of the flesh... I think you are absolutely right... it is time to get serious. It was always time but now it is called today. J
_____________________________
"These things I have spoken to you, so that in Me you may have peace In the world you have tribulation, but take courage; I have overcome the world."
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RE: Obama's faith speech... - 11/8/2008 11:00:02 PM
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Dancre
Posts: 1307
Joined: 4/12/2005
Status: offline
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Don't think of it as praying more, think of it as fullfilling your responsibilities to your family and yourself. God is faithful, He'll help. It's communicating with Him and interceeding for others. And yes, things would be a lot better if we all prayed a little more. I'm surprised none of the Obama supporters haven't chimed in on this one. Makes me wonder. . . . quote:
ORIGINAL: jbow quote:
ORIGINAL: Dancre Let me also add, this is a good time for those who are drifting it their faith to start to take it seriously. Be obedient to God, get into the Word, make it your plum line, get into a Christ-centered church and be ready. Be the smart Virgin and have enough lamp oil, don't be the foolish Virgin who had to go get some more while the Bridegroom was approaching and she missed Him. kim I have been really slack in my prayer life. I am changing that. I still have a struggle with "the sin that so easily besets", but I keep getting up again. I think more prayer will help both me and others that I pray for. I sometimes wonder about how many things might be different in the lives of others if I were to pray more. I know that my walk would be more 'in the Spirit" and therefore I would not fulfill the lust of the flesh... I think you are absolutely right... it is time to get serious. It was always time but now it is called today. J
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