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ORIGINAL: freakofnature

Now I know some of you are going to applaud the resignation of the 6 officers because of the whole imagined "separation of church and state/constitution" thing but me personally, I think I may write one of these officers in on my presidential ballot for actually leading with convictions:

Under Ban, 6 Troopers Resign as Chaplains

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ORIGINAL: ljmac

Democrats v. Jesus

Gov. Tim Kaine (D) and his censors are just doing what Democrats do naturally, fighting Jesus whenever they aren't up for election. Kaine is the so-called moderate that some thought might be nObama's VP pick. If he had, Jesus' name would still be permitted in Virginia.

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Although I would like to see Jesus's name used everywhere, this move is consistent with the secular Deism that the founding fathers implied the US should generally keep to. We shouldn't try to have a government that represents Christ because the government, like all other worldly institutions, is under the influence of Satan.

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ORIGINAL: mapachito13
So this nation was not founded as a Christian nation like so many Christians attest so vociferously!

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ORIGINAL: freakofnature

Now I know some of you are going to applaud the resignation of the 6 officers because of the whole imagined "separation of church and state/constitution" thing but me personally, I think I may write one of these officers in on my presidential ballot for actually leading with convictions:

Under Ban, 6 Troopers Resign as Chaplains

quote:

ORIGINAL: ljmac

Democrats v. Jesus

Gov. Tim Kaine (D) and his censors are just doing what Democrats do naturally, fighting Jesus whenever they aren't up for election. Kaine is the so-called moderate that some thought might be nObama's VP pick. If he had, Jesus' name would still be permitted in Virginia.

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John Adams and John Hancock:
We Recognize No Sovereign but God, and no King but Jesus! [April 18, 1775]

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Patrick Henry:
“It cannot be emphasized too clearly and too often that this nation was founded, not by religionists, but by Christians; not on religion, but on the gospel of Jesus Christ. For this very reason, peoples of other faiths have been afforded asylum, prosperity, and freedom of worship here.” [May 1765 Speech to the House of Burgesses]

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“ He who made all men hath made the truths necessary to human happiness obvious to all… Our forefathers opened the Bible to all.”

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As the government of the United States of America is not in any sense founded on the Christian religion- as it has in itself no character of enmity against the laws, religion, or tranquility of Mohametans... it is declared by the parties that no pretext arising from religious opinions shall ever produce an interruption of the harmony between the two countries.

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In Benjamin Franklin's 1749 plan of education for public schools in Pennsylvania, he insisted that schools teach "the excellency of the Christian religion above all others, ancient or modern."

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"The way to see by faith is to shut the eye of reason."
-Poor Richard's Almanac

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"In the affairs of the world, men are saved, not by faith, but by the lack of it."

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"When a religion is good, I conceive it will support itself; and when it does not support itself so that its professors are obliged to call for the help of the civil power, 'tis a sign, I apprehend, of its being a bad one."

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"If we look back into history for the character of the present sects in Christianity, we shall find few that have not in their turns been persecutors, and complainers of persecution. The primitive Christians thought persecution extremely wrong in the Pagans, but practiced it on one another. The first Protestants of the Church of England blamed persecution in the Romish Church, but practiced it upon the Puritans. They found it wrong in Bishops, but fell into the practice themselves both here (England) and in New England

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"Religious bondage shackles and debilitates the mind and unfits it for every noble enterprise."
-letter to Wm. Bradford, 1774

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"The purpose of separation of church and state is to keep forever from these shores the ceaseless strife that has soaked the soil of Europe in blood for centuries."
-1803 letter objecting use of gov. land for churches

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"It may not be easy, in every possible case, to trace the line of separation between the rights of religion and the Civil authority with such distinctness as to avoid collisions and doubts on unessential points. The tendency to unsurpastion on one side or the other, or to a corrupting coalition or alliance between them, will be best guarded agst. by an entire abstinence of the Gov't from interfence in any way whatsoever, beyond the necessity of preserving public order, and protecting each sect agst. trespasses on its legal rights by others."
James Madison, "James Madison on Religious Liberty",

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"Experience witnesseth that ecclesiastical establishments, instead of maintaining the purity and efficacy of religion, have had a contrary operation. During almost fifteen centuries has the legal establishment of Christianity been on trial. What has been its fruits? More or less, in all places, pride and indolence in the clergy; ignorance and servility in the laity; in both, superstition, bigotry and persecution."
- "A Memorial and Remonstrance", 1785

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Religious controversies are always productive of more acrimony and irreconcilable hatreds than those which spring from any other cause. Of all the animosities which have existed among mankind, those which are caused by the difference of sentiments in religion appear to be the most inveterate and distressing, and ought most to be depreciated.
-letter to Edward Newenham

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"Of all the tyrannies that affect mankind, tyranny in religion is the worst."

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What is it the New Testament teaches us? To believe that the Almighty committed debauchery with a woman engaged to be married; and the belief of this debauchery is called faith

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We do not admit the authority of the church with respect to its pretended infallibility, its manufactured miracles, its setting itself up to forgive sins. It was by propagating that belief and supporting it with fire that she kept up her temporal power

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All national institutions of churches, whether Jewish, Christian or Turkish, appear to me no other than human inventions, set up to terrify and enslave mankind, and monopolize power and profit.

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In every country and every age, the priest has been hostile to liberty. He is always in alliance with the despot ... they have perverted the purest religion ever preached to man into mystery and jargon, unintelligible to all mankind, and therefore the safer engine for their purpose.

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Millions of innocent men, women and children, since the introduction of Christianity, have been burnt, tortured, fined, imprisoned; yet we have not advanced an inch towards uniformity. What has been the effect of coercion? To make one half the world fools, and the other half hypocrites. To support roguery and error all over the earth

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They [preachers] dread the advance of science as witches do the approach of daylight and scowl on the fatal harbinger announcing the subversions of the duperies on which they live.

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"No man shall be compelled to frequent or support any religious worship, place, or ministry whatsoever."
-Virginia Act for Religious Freedom

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"Christianity neither is, nor ever was, a part of the Common Law."
-letter to Dr. Thomas Cooper, 1814

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ORIGINAL: blessedinnyc

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ORIGINAL: ljmac

Democrats v. Jesus

Gov. Tim Kaine (D) and his censors are just doing what Democrats do naturally, fighting Jesus whenever they aren't up for election. Kaine is the so-called moderate that some thought might be nObama's VP pick. If he had, Jesus' name would still be permitted in Virginia.

Republicans v. First Amendment

Gov. Tim Kaine is doing what Democrats do naturally, keeping their promise when they swear to uphold the constitution.

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John Adams and John Hancock:
We Recognize No Sovereign but God, and no King but Jesus! [April 18, 1775]

I notice, Dubya, that among others, you leave out Jefferson. Is there a reason you are dodging the fact that Jefferson wrote the Congressional Koran? Would you like police chaplains praying the peace of Allah upon families?

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ORIGINAL: Dubya
But here are some from the pen of Thomas Jefferson:

“ The doctrines of Jesus are simple, and tend to all the happiness of man.”

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But compare with these the demoralizing dogmas of Calvin.
1. That there are three Gods.
2. That good works, or the love of our neighbor, is nothing.
3. That faith is every thing, and the more incomprehensible the proposition, the more merit the faith.
4. That reason in religion is of unlawful use.
5. That God, from the beginning, elected certain individuals to be saved, and certain others to be damned; and that no crimes of the former can damn them; no virtues of the latter save."
- to Benjamin Waterhouse, Jun. 26, 1822

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"I am a real Christian, that is to say, a disciple of the doctrines of Jesus."

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"It is not to be understood that I am with him (Jesus Christ) in his doctrines. I am a Materialist; he takes the side of Spiritualism, he preaches the efficacy of repentance toward forgiveness of sin; I require a counterpoise of good works to redeem it." - to Carey, 1816

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"Christianity neither is, nor ever was, a part of the Common Law."
-letter to Dr. Thomas Cooper, 1814

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The priests of the superstition, a bloodthirsty race, are as cruel and remorseless as the being whom they represented as the family God of Abraham, of Isaac and of Jacob, and the local God of Israel.

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ORIGINAL: blessedinnyc
That, along with the mountain of damning evidence I posted above, suggests that his faith has little to do with the Christianity taught by Wesley, Calvin, Luther, St. Francis, Augustine, or any of the early church fathers. It also suggests that he is turning over in his grave at the thought of police chaplains propogandizing Jesus as part of their official duties.

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ORIGINAL: blessedinnyc

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"Christianity neither is, nor ever was, a part of the Common Law."
-letter to Dr. Thomas Cooper, 1814

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ORIGINAL: Dubya
Oh, I doubt that.

Jefferson was a man who gave much thought to philosophy, spirituality, and morality. Just because Jefferson was a Universalist, not a Christian does not mean that our country was not founded on the principles of Christianity. Rather than looking at what he disagreed with, look at what he supported and how he said it influenced his writings and beliefs.

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ORIGINAL: Dubya

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ORIGINAL: blessedinnyc

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"Christianity neither is, nor ever was, a part of the Common Law."
-letter to Dr. Thomas Cooper, 1814

You might want to read the entire letter in context rather than taking something from an atheist website.

Jefferson's letter to Dr. Thomas Cooper, from Monticello, February 10, 1814.

For we know that the common law is that system of law which was introduced by the Saxons on their settlement in England, and altered from time to time by proper legislative authority from that time to the date of Magna Charta, which terminates the period of the common law, or lex non scripta, and commences that of the statute law, or Lex Scripta. This settlement took place about the middle of the fifth century. But Christianity was not introduced till the seventh century; the conversion of the first christian king of the Heptarchy having taken place about the year 598, and that of the last about 686. Here, then, was a space of two hundred years, during which the common law was in existence, and Christianity no part of it.

He was NOT talking about the U.S., the Constitution, or anything pertaining to that. The argument was concerning British lawyers who argued that Christianity was part of British COmmon Law. Jefferson shows in this letter that could not be true since common law pre-dated Christianity in England.

Atheists frequently take things out of context to prove a point. It shows very poor scholarship in my opinion.

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ORIGINAL: blessedinnyc

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ORIGINAL: Dubya
Oh, I doubt that.

Jefferson was a man who gave much thought to philosophy, spirituality, and morality. Just because Jefferson was a Universalist, not a Christian does not mean that our country was not founded on the principles of Christianity. Rather than looking at what he disagreed with, look at what he supported and how he said it influenced his writings and beliefs.

I think there's two arguments that you made originally in this post Dubya; one is that Jefferson was a Christian. The other is that Jefferson not being a Christian doesn't mean that the nation wasn't founded on the principles of Christianity; I think the second argument is a bit more interesting, so I am going to respond to the above quote with minor changes on my part (italicized).

It's absolutely correct that the country was founded on some Christian values, but it was also very heavily influenced by Humanist values (Erasmus, Locke) Greek values (Plato and the Athenians), and of course, Jewish values. Some of the Humanists were "Christians", and I'm sure that the Dominionists will also try to argue that Socrates and Plato were also Christians (go figure.) However, even if there was some Christian influence to the country, it certainly wasn't of the fundamentalist kind that would have blocked the establishment clause.

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ORIGINAL: blessedinnyc

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ORIGINAL: Dubya

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ORIGINAL: blessedinnyc

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"Christianity neither is, nor ever was, a part of the Common Law."
-letter to Dr. Thomas Cooper, 1814

You might want to read the entire letter in context rather than taking something from an atheist website.

Jefferson's letter to Dr. Thomas Cooper, from Monticello, February 10, 1814.

For we know that the common law is that system of law which was introduced by the Saxons on their settlement in England, and altered from time to time by proper legislative authority from that time to the date of Magna Charta, which terminates the period of the common law, or lex non scripta, and commences that of the statute law, or Lex Scripta. This settlement took place about the middle of the fifth century. But Christianity was not introduced till the seventh century; the conversion of the first christian king of the Heptarchy having taken place about the year 598, and that of the last about 686. Here, then, was a space of two hundred years, during which the common law was in existence, and Christianity no part of it.

He was NOT talking about the U.S., the Constitution, or anything pertaining to that. The argument was concerning British lawyers who argued that Christianity was part of British COmmon Law. Jefferson shows in this letter that could not be true since common law pre-dated Christianity in England.

Atheists frequently take things out of context to prove a point. It shows very poor scholarship in my opinion.

Hang on here. Didn't your quote above ("The doctrines of Jesus are simple and tend to the happiness of man.") leave out the whole complaint about organized religion less than a sentence later?

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Meanwhile, the context you cite still doesn't change the meaning: the common law that was partly used to make up the constitution existed before Christianity, and thus, government does not require religion to operate.

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ORIGINAL: michlang

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ORIGINAL: ljmac

Democrats v. Jesus

Gov. Tim Kaine (D) and his censors are just doing what Democrats do naturally, fighting Jesus whenever they aren't up for election. Kaine is the so-called moderate that some thought might be nObama's VP pick. If he had, Jesus' name would still be permitted in Virginia.

Did you read the article at all?? It was the police superintendent who issued the order, and it only applies to non-denominational or (I assume) inter-religious public, communal services. In private services or counseling it does not apply. Before you overreact and somehow jump to Obama, which has absolutely nothing to do with this thread, or before you make absolutely RIDICULOUS statements about democrats, please read the article in its entirely first. Thanks.

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Oh great, Democrats will permit you to say Jesus' name if you get their permission. If you say Dear Jesus, they want to stop you. If you say F Jesus, they want to defend you.

This is just normal behavior for Democrats. They see a cross, they want to destroy it. They see the 10 Commandments, they want to ban it. They see a child pray in the wrong place, they want to shut her up. They see someone pray to Jesus too close to one of their places of worship, an abortuary, and they want them arrested.

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ORIGINAL: Jhud

I think the artguments here are getting off track.

Even if one agrees some of the Founding Fathers were Deists, this doesn't mean they were irreligous or secularists; indeed by today's standards they would be very religious people. And none of them would have suggested that a chaplain, of which there were plenty at the time, adopt an artifically ecumenical phrasing to his prayers - Kaine is wrong here.

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"Is the appointment of Chaplains to the two Houses of Congress consistent with the Constitution, and with the pure principle of religious freedom? In strictness the answer on both points must be in the negative. The Constitution of the U.S. forbids everything like an establishment of a national religion. The law appointing Chaplains establishes a religious worship for the national representatives, to be performed by Ministers of religion, elected by a majority of them; and these are to be paid out of the national taxes. Does not this involve the principle of a national
establishment, applicable to a provision for a religious worship for the Constituent as well as of the representative Body, approved by the majority, and conducted by Ministers of religion paid by the entire nation."
-Detached Memoranda

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ORIGINAL:
Kaine stands firmly behind the prohibition of Jesus' name.