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Lord... Liar... Lunatic - 10/24/2008 8:36:38 PM
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theolotee
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C.S. Lewis made the claim that Jesus was either much more than, or much less than a great human being, when he made the profound statement that He is either the Lord, a liar, or a lunatic.
on opening night of "Passion of the Christ", my family and i went out and saw it. After watching this, I saw on tv many historians, recounting the accuracy of the depiction of crucifixion... specifically Jesus' crucifixion.... and they concluded that this is the closest anyone has come to recreating it theatrically.
it dawned on me that there may be a flaw in C.S. Lewis' assertion... i think liar is no longer an option... in order for someone to go through all of that, He must have believed in what He was doing... i liar would never have been able to withstand the torture without giving up the truth.
this is my opinion, what do you think?
theolotee
"wear your theology on your theolotee!"
< Message edited by theolotee -- 10/24/2008 10:15:34 PM >
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RE: Lord... Liar... Lunatic - 10/24/2008 8:38:13 PM
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PopsiLufsJesus
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Hmm, I never thought about that. Of course I know Jesus never lied, but I would have to agree if'n that were the case...
_____________________________
"Be joyful in hope, patient in affliction, faithful in prayer."
~ Romans 12:12
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RE: Lord... Liar... Lunatic - 10/24/2008 10:00:00 PM
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His_4_Ever
Posts: 599
Joined: 10/4/2008
From: Idaho
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quote:
ORIGINAL: theolotee
C.S. Lewis made the claim that Jesus was either much more than, or much less than a great human being, when he made the profound statement that He is either the Lord, a liar, or a lunatic... on opening night of "Passion of the Christ", my family and i went out and saw it. After watching this, I saw on tv many historians, recounting the accuracy of the depiction of crucifixion... specifically Jesus' crucifixion.... and they concluded that this is the closest anyone has come to recreating it theatrically.
it dawned on me that there may be a flaw in C.S. Lewis' assertion... i think liar is no longer an option... in order for someone to go through all of that, He must have believed in what He was doing... i liar would never have been able to withstand the torture without giving up the truth.
this is my opinion, what do you think?
theolotee
"wear your theology on your theolotee!"
I at first thought you were saying C.S. Lewis made that statement on the opening night of "The Passion of Christ" which be impossible since he's died in '63.
I guess you could say he's not liar, but if he's a lunatic, by saying he's the son of God could been seen as the reason for him not saving himself because he would believe it himself.
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RE: Lord... Liar... Lunatic - 10/24/2008 10:19:33 PM
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theolotee
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quote:
ORIGINAL: campbe33
I at first thought you were saying C.S. Lewis made that statement on the opening night of "The Passion of Christ" which be impossible since he's died in '63.
I guess you could say he's not liar, but if he's a lunatic, by saying he's the son of God could been seen as the reason for him not saving himself because he would believe it himself.
that did read confusingly... sorry... i edited just now.
theolotee
"wear your theology on your theolotee!"
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RE: Lord... Liar... Lunatic - 10/24/2008 10:23:24 PM
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delete123
Posts: 994
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quote:
it dawned on me that there may be a flaw in C.S. Lewis' assertion... i think liar is no longer an option... in order for someone to go through all of that, He must have believed in what He was doing... i liar would never have been able to withstand the torture without giving up the truth.
this is my opinion, what do you think?
I believe C.S.Lewis was referring to what others opinions of Jesu were. The pharisees,scribes, and saducees did not want to believe He was the Christ and therefore called Him a liar. Even to the extent that they blatantly said He was Beezebulb.
Also in the book of Mark it is written that Jesus was peculiar and spoke with authority, but you have to remember that He was rebuking a practical norm and tradition for this time. (Like any new fad of this generation, it either makes it or it doesn't regardless how strange one thinks of it)
Lastly I think all records certainly show that Jesus is certainly Lord.
I saw the passion several times.
Also I recall the complications behind the seen with the main acto Caziel who portrayed Christ.
His intials were J.C.
he was struck by lightening while filming
actually his padding fell off and he did get scourged
broke several ribs
and other tibits to this effect
But just my 2 cents
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RE: Lord... Liar... Lunatic - 10/24/2008 10:24:24 PM
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bravjim
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Yes, but could a lunatic rise 3 days later? Looks like He is who He said He is.
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I say then: Walk in the Spirit, and you shall not fulfilll the lust of the flesh.
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RE: Lord... Liar... Lunatic - 10/24/2008 10:29:20 PM
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bravjim
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Actually, a better observation about how they said He spoke with authority, read the sermon on the mount. I especially take Matthew 7:24 - 29, especially verses 24 & 27. He claimed authority in these matters, and on the matters within the sermon.
_____________________________
I say then: Walk in the Spirit, and you shall not fulfilll the lust of the flesh.
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RE: Lord... Liar... Lunatic - 10/24/2008 11:45:25 PM
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URForgiven
Posts: 1211
Joined: 3/22/2008
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quote:
ORIGINAL: theolotee
C.S. Lewis made the claim that Jesus was either much more than, or much less than a great human being, when he made the profound statement that He is either the Lord, a liar, or a lunatic.
on opening night of "Passion of the Christ", my family and i went out and saw it. After watching this, I saw on tv many historians, recounting the accuracy of the depiction of crucifixion... specifically Jesus' crucifixion.... and they concluded that this is the closest anyone has come to recreating it theatrically.
it dawned on me that there may be a flaw in C.S. Lewis' assertion... i think liar is no longer an option... in order for someone to go through all of that, He must have believed in what He was doing... i liar would never have been able to withstand the torture without giving up the truth.
this is my opinion, what do you think?
I believe the statement you are referring to is from mere Christianity.
"A man who was merely a man and said the sort of things Jesus said would not be a great moral teacher. He would either be a lunatic - on the level with a man who says he is a poached egg - or he would be the devil of hell. You must take your choice. Either this was, and is, the Son of God, or else a madman or something worse. You can shut Him up for a fool or you can fall at His feet and call Him Lord and God. But let us not come with any patronizing nonsense about His being a great human teacher. He has not left that open to us."
There is no mention of liar.
Peace
_____________________________
"Are you so foolish? After beginning with the Spirit,
are you now trying to attain your goal by human effort?" Galatians 3:3
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RE: Lord... Liar... Lunatic - 10/24/2008 11:57:35 PM
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theolotee
Posts: 40
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quote:
ORIGINAL: delete123
I believe C.S.Lewis was referring to what others opinions of Jesu were. The pharisees,scribes, and saducees did not want to believe He was the Christ and therefore called Him a liar. Even to the extent that they blatantly said He was Beezebulb.
it is my understanding that C.S. Lewis was responding to the people that refused to believe in Jesus as Lord, but would rather claim He was a "really good man", a "prophet" or a "nice guy" or whatever... as i understand Lewis's claim, he said that he can't be just a good man, prophet or a nice guy, but had to be either Lord, liar or a lunatic.
quote:
Lastly I think all records certainly show that Jesus is certainly Lord.
I saw the passion several times.
so that i am perfectly clear, i know Jesus as my Lord and Savior and it is a no-brainer that He is Lord of all! what i am saying is that Lewis' "other options" for non-believers allowed the possibility for some to believe Him to be a liar, and i don't believe that it is a viable possibility, after seeing the brutal torture that He faced.
theolotee
"wear your theology on your theolotee!"
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RE: Lord... Liar... Lunatic - 10/25/2008 12:17:27 AM
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theolotee
Posts: 40
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quote:
ORIGINAL: URForgiven
I believe the statement you are referring to is from mere Christianity.
"A man who was merely a man and said the sort of things Jesus said would not be a great moral teacher. He would either be a lunatic - on the level with a man who says he is a poached egg - or he would be the devil of hell. You must take your choice. Either this was, and is, the Son of God, or else a madman or something worse. You can shut Him up for a fool or you can fall at His feet and call Him Lord and God. But let us not come with any patronizing nonsense about His being a great human teacher. He has not left that open to us."
There is no mention of liar.
Peace
i do believe it is from "mere christianity", which (full disclosure) i have not personally read... however, i understood Lewis' argument to be that if you believe Jesus wasn't who He said He was, you must then choose whether or not you believe He believed His own claims to be true or not... leaving Him to either be who He said He was (Lord), a man who claimed he was the son of God and knew he wasn't (liar) or a madman who thought he was something he wasn't (lunatic).
however, your quote from the book doesn't mention a "liar" option, which speaks to my original point that it shouldn't be an option... maybe i took it wrong when i heard it in church years ago, maybe the pastor misstated Lewis' remarks... unless it is somewhere else in the book. as i said, i have not personally read it... but i'd like to. thank you for your contribution to this thread, it helps.
theolotee
"wear your theology on your theolotee!"
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RE: Lord... Liar... Lunatic - 10/25/2008 12:44:07 AM
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OneJohn410
Posts: 1517
Joined: 6/1/2008
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quote:
C.S. Lewis made the claim that Jesus was either much more than, or much less than a great human being, when he made the profound statement that He is either the Lord, a liar, or a lunatic.
on opening night of "Passion of the Christ", my family and i went out and saw it. After watching this, I saw on tv many historians, recounting the accuracy of the depiction of crucifixion... specifically Jesus' crucifixion.... and they concluded that this is the closest anyone has come to recreating it theatrically.
it dawned on me that there may be a flaw in C.S. Lewis' assertion... i think liar is no longer an option... in order for someone to go through all of that, He must have believed in what He was doing... i liar would never have been able to withstand the torture without giving up the truth.
this is my opinion, what do you think?
quote:
I believe the statement you are referring to is from mere Christianity.
"A man who was merely a man and said the sort of things Jesus said would not be a great moral teacher. He would either be a lunatic - on the level with a man who says he is a poached egg - or he would be the devil of hell. You must take your choice. Either this was, and is, the Son of God, or else a madman or something worse. You can shut Him up for a fool or you can fall at His feet and call Him Lord and God. But let us not come with any patronizing nonsense about His being a great human teacher. He has not left that open to us."
There is no mention of liar.
A man, merely any man, who spoke like Jesus would not be a great teacher. He'd be a lunatic, or he'd be the devil.
Jesus was and is the Son of God, or else a madman or worse.
You can silence him as being a fool, or in worship call him Lord and God.
He was not simply a great human teacher.
Theolotee-
I diced up the Mere Christianity quote provided, and to be fair to your post and C.S. Lewis, it would be a good thing to mention what text of Lewis' you were referring to.
I don't see Lewis claiming anything about more or less of a man in the quote. Lewis was writing an argumentative... something to rule out Jesus being called a great human teacher. That's the claim of other world religions- not that he didn't exist, just that he was less than who He is.
A liar giving up the truth is an interesting phrase. I could not know something and tell the truth that I didn't, but because I was called a liar I'd have nothing more to say- except more lies- even if I tried a 180 and tried to invent some truth-sounding story.
What makes a liar knowledgeable about the truth to begin with?
Jesus gave them the truth, and they called him a liar and punished him. Do you mean a liar would have been babbling on and on trying to tell anything at all- all the way through the punishment of preparation and crucifixion?
Please, no offense meant, but clear this up?
Thanks.
_____________________________
For everything that was written in the past was written to teach us, so that through endurance and the encouragement of the Scriptures we might have hope. -Romans 15:4 (NIV)
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RE: Lord... Liar... Lunatic - 10/25/2008 1:18:18 AM
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theolotee
Posts: 40
Joined: 1/27/2008
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quote:
ORIGINAL: OneJohn410
Theolotee-
I diced up the Mere Christianity quote provided, and to be fair to your post and C.S. Lewis, it would be a good thing to mention what text of Lewis' you were referring to.
I don't see Lewis claiming anything about more or less of a man in the quote. Lewis was writing an argumentative... something to rule out Jesus being called a great human teacher. That's the claim of other world religions- not that he didn't exist, just that he was less than who He is.
A liar giving up the truth is an interesting phrase. I could not know something and tell the truth that I didn't, but because I was called a liar I'd have nothing more to say- except more lies- even if I tried a 180 and tried to invent some truth-sounding story.
What makes a liar knowledgeable about the truth to begin with?
Jesus gave them the truth, and they called him a liar and punished him. Do you mean a liar would have been babbling on and on trying to tell anything at all- all the way through the punishment of preparation and crucifixion?
Please, no offense meant, but clear this up?
Thanks.
no, that's not what i mean. before i begin, it's important to me that you know two specific things. first, i personally believe Jesus is precisely who He said He was. second, as i stated before, i have not read Lewis' book "mere christianity". years ago, this argument was made in church, for the same reason that you stated Lewis made it... to dispel any notion that he was simply a good teacher.
i was just saying that if a person claimed to be the Son of God and knew he wasn't and was therefore lying, he would give himself up, before or during the scourging... i see it like this, a liar would have gotten hit with the whip once and said, "okay... i give up... you win...!" my point was that, in order to withstand that, He had to believe His own claim of Deity. this was before i was told Lewis' exact writings. the portion of my original comments, about being more or less than a good human being, was a paraphrase since i hadn't read Lewis' comments. thanks to you and URForgiven, i now know Lewis' original argument in context, and it sort of renders my original comments meaningless... honestly. :)
hope this clears it up for you.
theolotee
"wear your theology on your theolotee!"
< Message edited by theolotee -- 10/25/2008 1:32:53 AM >
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RE: Lord... Liar... Lunatic - 10/25/2008 5:09:43 PM
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delete123
Posts: 994
Joined: 6/1/2005
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quote:
it is my understanding that C.S. Lewis was responding to the people that refused to believe in Jesus as Lord, but would rather claim He was a "really good man", a "prophet" or a "nice guy" or whatever... as i understand Lewis's claim, he said that he can't be just a good man, prophet or a nice guy, but had to be either Lord, liar or a lunatic.
Yes but to put things in perspective the notion started from the pharisees,scribes, and sadducces, because they hated him, and they certainly had their followers as well. So in essence these are the same who made these statements.
quote:
so that i am perfectly clear, i know Jesus as my Lord and Savior and it is a no-brainer that He is Lord of all! what i am saying is that Lewis' "other options" for non-believers allowed the possibility for some to believe Him to be a liar, and i don't believe that it is a viable possibility, after seeing the brutal torture that He faced.
I hope you are not believeing that I doubt your faith, but I knew a man ( in california) who professed publicly that he believed that Jesus was the devil. Those words sat with me for a long time, and had to ask the question myself. Gratefully I learned they were not true.
I am self taught, but one thing I learned is the truth. I may not be rounded on the corners and may appear crass at times, but one thing I know is truth.
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RE: Lord... Liar... Lunatic - 10/26/2008 3:47:24 PM
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theolotee
Posts: 40
Joined: 1/27/2008
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quote:
ORIGINAL: delete123
quote:
ORIGINAL: theolotee
it is my understanding that C.S. Lewis was responding to the people that refused to believe in Jesus as Lord, but would rather claim He was a "really good man", a "prophet" or a "nice guy" or whatever... as i understand Lewis's claim, he said that he can't be just a good man, prophet or a nice guy, but had to be either Lord, liar or a lunatic.
Yes but to put things in perspective the notion started from the pharisees,scribes, and sadducces, because they hated him, and they certainly had their followers as well. So in essence these are the same who made these statements.
i am thankful to the others who posted the quoted text of Lewis' words, and i've since learned that my initial concept of what he meant was not correct. the thing i did know was that this an argument in favor of the Deity of Jesus... unless i'm missing something, i think your missing the point of Lewis' statement.
quote:
ORIGINAL: theolotee
so that i am perfectly clear, i know Jesus as my Lord and Savior and it is a no-brainer that He is Lord of all!
quote:
ORIGINAL: delete123
I hope you are not believeing that I doubt your faith, but I knew a man ( in california) who professed publicly that he believed that Jesus was the devil. Those words sat with me for a long time, and had to ask the question myself. Gratefully I learned they were not true.
I am self taught, but one thing I learned is the truth. I may not be rounded on the corners and may appear crass at times, but one thing I know is truth.
forgive me, but i have absolutely no clue what point your trying to make here.
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theolotee
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