|
Users viewing this topic:
none
|
|
Login  | |
|
Is abortion a dead issue? - 11/4/2008 10:25:24 PM
|
|
|
HighPlainsDrifter
Posts: 1304
Joined: 9/22/2005
From: The Great Sioux Empire
Status: offline
|
Tonight, it appears as if the most pro-abortion candidate for President ever has won, and a ballot initiative banning abortion in the state of South Dakota is likely going down in flames. Will the GOP join the left in abandoning a pro-life stance now that the electorate is treating it like settled law? If they cannot, will it doom the party, as well as those ardently pro-life to the sidelines of political discourse?
_____________________________
Give a hoot, eat yer Lute, Der's no risk in Lutefisk.
|
|
|
|
|
RE: Is abortion a dead issue? - 11/4/2008 10:51:45 PM
|
|
|
GregandJenny
Posts: 676
Joined: 2/16/2006
From: Near Seattle Washington
Status: offline
|
i don't think it's dead, i just think that people are tired of hearing talk about it and no action. Therefore for many people don't think anyone will do anything about it.
G
_____________________________
It does not have to be well with my circumstance to be well with my soul!
|
|
|
|
|
RE: Is abortion a dead issue? - 11/4/2008 10:56:48 PM
|
|
|
karlie
Posts: 16433
Joined: 4/10/2005
From: Central California
Status: offline
|
quote:
If they cannot, will it doom the party, as well as those ardently pro-life to the sidelines of political discourse?
It will never be a dead issue to me. I will never vote for anyone who supports abortion, even if I'm the last one who takes that stand. Nothing may ever change as far as the legal ramifications, but that won't stop me from taking the stand against it. It's no more right now than it was when they legalized it, regardless of what the law says.
_____________________________
You can't stop the waves, but you can learn how to surf~
|
|
|
|
|
RE: Is abortion a dead issue? - 11/4/2008 11:00:51 PM
|
|
|
GregandJenny
Posts: 676
Joined: 2/16/2006
From: Near Seattle Washington
Status: offline
|
quote:
It will never be a dead issue to me. I will never vote for anyone who supports abortion, even if I'm the last one who takes that stand.
 I agree wholeheartedly Karlie, we can stand together!
_____________________________
It does not have to be well with my circumstance to be well with my soul!
|
|
|
|
|
RE: Is abortion a dead issue? - 11/4/2008 11:03:32 PM
|
|
|
karlie
Posts: 16433
Joined: 4/10/2005
From: Central California
Status: offline
|
_____________________________
You can't stop the waves, but you can learn how to surf~
|
|
|
|
|
RE: Is abortion a dead issue? - 11/4/2008 11:17:39 PM
|
|
|
blessedinnyc
Posts: 2007
Joined: 10/12/2007
Status: offline
|
quote:
ORIGINAL: HighPlainsDrifter
Tonight, it appears as if the most pro-abortion candidate for President ever has won, and a ballot initiative banning abortion in the state of South Dakota is likely going down in flames. Will the GOP join the left in abandoning a pro-life stance now that the electorate is treating it like settled law? If they cannot, will it doom the party, as well as those ardently pro-life to the sidelines of political discourse?
I don't think it will. However, I do think the rhetoric has to change a bit.
The first thing is that there has to be a well-articulated logical, secular argument against abortion, and I think the goals have to change. Most people don't favor making abortion, including PlanB, illegal.
Dragging out pictures of dead babies and calling people murderers doesn't really help things. IMHO, Republicans need to take the exact opposite approach and try to gain the intellectual high ground, rather than the emotional high ground. Conservatives need to get together the smartest Computer Science/Theory and AI PhDs and start talking about how we are entering an era where the lines around personhood are going to start to get blurred, and we need to do a better job of understanding what is a person and what isn't.
A good place to start with that is the human brain. If a creature has enough human brain cells to be conscious, it is a person. This would preclude most second trimester abortions.
I don't think the abortion issue is dead; it is an intellectual question that will haunt us just as much as the tragedy of the commons, whether we should provide food to famine-stricken countries if it means bankrupting their farmers, and what role religion has in the public square.
But the debate does need to change. As it stands, Republicans appear to have lost a lot of hearts and minds over the past four years on the abortion issue. Republicans need to get out there with an argument that people will listen to; that means an argument that appeals to reason rather than "liberals are vampires who will eat your unborn children" or "abortionists are going to have to go before the throne of judgement and answer to God for their actions." While all of this may be true, it appears that a majority of the population will feel taken aback if this argument is made to them.
So yes, abortion is not a dead issue, because it is still a valid intellectual argument.
|
|
|
|
|
RE: Is abortion a dead issue? - 11/4/2008 11:19:02 PM
|
|
|
SovereignIsHe
Posts: 5921
Joined: 4/15/2005
From: Northern Califonria
Status: offline
|
It's a DEAD issue if you are on the receiving end..
_____________________________
John
Proverbs 12:10 A righteous man regardeth the life of his beast: but the tender mercies of the wicked are cruel.
|
|
|
|
|
RE: Is abortion a dead issue? - 11/4/2008 11:25:03 PM
|
|
|
HighPlainsDrifter
Posts: 1304
Joined: 9/22/2005
From: The Great Sioux Empire
Status: offline
|
Clearly, the arguments made on the pro-life side are less and less well-received in every major election cycle. That's an indisputable fact.
_____________________________
Give a hoot, eat yer Lute, Der's no risk in Lutefisk.
|
|
|
|
|
RE: Is abortion a dead issue? - 11/4/2008 11:27:43 PM
|
|
|
karlie
Posts: 16433
Joined: 4/10/2005
From: Central California
Status: offline
|
quote:
Clearly, the arguments made on the pro-life side are less and less well-received in every major election cycle.
That because our world is falling further and further into moral decline. That doesn't mean we need to stand by and give up without a fight. It doesn't interest me what the polls or election results say...it interests me what God says.
_____________________________
You can't stop the waves, but you can learn how to surf~
|
|
|
|
|
RE: Is abortion a dead issue? - 11/4/2008 11:29:15 PM
|
|
|
blessedinnyc
Posts: 2007
Joined: 10/12/2007
Status: offline
|
quote:
Clearly, the arguments made on the pro-life side are less and less well-received in every major election cycle. That's an indisputable fact.
Oh, COME ON! The message has changed a whole lot over the last 15-20 years.
1992: "Choose life"
1996: "Abortion stops a beating heart."
2000: "Abortion: legalized murder."
2004: "John Kerry is worse than the Nazis because he supports abortion."
If the Republicans return to a more logic-oriented, less angry message, they'll find that people will be better able to receive it. Back in 1994, it's clear to see why everyone voted Republican; the Liberal message had gotten too extreme. Just search for "Bully gets bullied" and "Rush Limbaugh" on YouTube; you'll find a bunch of angry people calling the anti-abortion crowd murderers and running Rush Limbaugh off his own television show.
If the message changes, the voters can be persuaded to come back.
|
|
|
|
|
RE: Is abortion a dead issue? - 11/4/2008 11:31:38 PM
|
|
|
sue244
Posts: 410
Joined: 6/7/2006
From: Colorado
Status: offline
|
Probably but I will still speak out against the practice. The ballot issue in Colorado that would define personhood as starting at the moment of conception is going down but I pray like Slavery we will one day abolish this evil practice but I suspect the Lord will return before that happens.
_____________________________
"Indeed I Tremble for this country when I reflect that God is Just and His Justice cannot Sleep Forever"
Jefferson
"Never yield to force; never yield to the apparently overwhelming might of the enemy.” Churchill
|
|
|
|
|
RE: Is abortion a dead issue? - 11/4/2008 11:32:35 PM
|
|
|
GregandJenny
Posts: 676
Joined: 2/16/2006
From: Near Seattle Washington
Status: offline
|
quote:
If the Republicans return to a more logic-oriented, less angry message, they'll find that people will be better able to receive it. Back in 1994, it's clear to see why everyone voted Republican; the Liberal message had gotten too extreme.
I think I agree with you here.
_____________________________
It does not have to be well with my circumstance to be well with my soul!
|
|
|
|
|
RE: Is abortion a dead issue? - 11/4/2008 11:41:43 PM
|
|
|
blessedinnyc
Posts: 2007
Joined: 10/12/2007
Status: offline
|
quote:
ORIGINAL: sue244
Probably but I will still speak out against the practice. The ballot issue in Colorado that would define personhood as starting at the moment of conception is going down but I pray like Slavery we will one day abolish this evil practice but I suspect the Lord will return before that happens.
You will, but you have to do it the right way.
Democrats were able to win in 2006 and 2008 because:
1.) They were humble. They took in a whole bunch of Democrats who would have been Republicans 20 years ago as Congressmen and Senators.
2.) They made the argument from a perspective that undecided and even right-leaning voters could relate to. They talked about the budget deficit, protecting our troops by making sure they got the supplies they needed, and keeping the government out of their business. You'll note that they didn't really campaign on welfare, environmental regulation, or the traditional Democratic values (besides the minimum wage.)
3.)When the subject of something like taxes came up, they explained that historically, the government has always recognized that it's easier for a richer person to pay a higher percentage of their income than it is for a poorer person, and 39-40% taxes aren't all that bad in a historical context. They did their best to respect voters by explaining their thinking, rather than just treating a certain view as dogma.
4.)They did the same thing with all of their ideological issues; rather than assuming voters were crazy if they didn't agree, they did their best to defend their views. You'll note they've been on the ideological defensive for the past three or four years, but ironically, that has worked out OK for them; yes, they're a little more moderate, but they've done a decent job of winning over moderate voters.
Republicans need to do the same thing. I think the age of reaaahrr *angry cat* politics is coming to an end; if Republicans have a better idea, they should be able to construct a better argument, and therefore win under the new rules.
|
|
|
|
|
RE: Is abortion a dead issue? - 11/4/2008 11:57:06 PM
|
|
|
blessedinnyc
Posts: 2007
Joined: 10/12/2007
Status: offline
|
quote:
ORIGINAL: GregandJenny
quote:
If the Republicans return to a more logic-oriented, less angry message, they'll find that people will be better able to receive it. Back in 1994, it's clear to see why everyone voted Republican; the Liberal message had gotten too extreme.
I think I agree with you here.
And look, as much as I've been called a liberal, I am finding myself slipping and sliding towards conservatism. Here's how you can get a "moderate" Dem like me, who's voted about 90% Dem in Senate, House, and Presidential races since he voted for Kerry in 2004, to vote for a Republican in 2010:
1.) Start acting like fiscal conservatives and promote fiscal responsibility. Democrats are going to be spending like crazy over the next two years. I'm not concerned about the taxes; I'm concerned about the $10 Trillion debt. That's what really sold me on the Dems in 2006.
2.) Respect me. The median American just voted for Barack Obama; people who vote for Democrats aren't necessarily extremists (just as people who voted for Bush in 2004 weren't stupid, as some of us Democrats assumed.) You've gotta come up with a good economic argument, and perhaps most importantly, explain why Republicans will make sure a nurse earning $50K/year will at least get a fair shake from the politicians in a world dominated by corporations.
3.) Take a look at the populist Republicans. Perhaps the Republican who had the strongest showing among Republicans was Ron Paul. I don't know if the Ron Paul message is right for the Republican party, but if Ron Paul had been the Republican candidate, he'd have at least beaten Obama on the 18-24 vote.
|
|
|
|
|
RE: Is abortion a dead issue? - 11/5/2008 12:12:31 AM
|
|
|
worthaboverubies
Posts: 148
Joined: 8/11/2006
Status: offline
|
blessed, you make good points but it sounds like democrat talking points.
As a conservative I think the progressive tax system we have is bad enough. And if the republican party starts sounding too much like moderate democrats then I would have no reason to vote.
|
|
|
|
|
RE: Is abortion a dead issue? - 11/5/2008 12:16:55 AM
|
|
|
SovereignIsHe
Posts: 5921
Joined: 4/15/2005
From: Northern Califonria
Status: offline
|
Yes, if Republicans were just like the Democrats they would have won... Ok...
_____________________________
John
Proverbs 12:10 A righteous man regardeth the life of his beast: but the tender mercies of the wicked are cruel.
|
|
|
|
|
RE: Is abortion a dead issue? - 11/5/2008 12:21:23 AM
|
|
|
worthaboverubies
Posts: 148
Joined: 8/11/2006
Status: offline
|
quote:
I don't know if the Ron Paul message is right for the Republican party, but if Ron Paul had been the Republican candidate, he'd have at least beaten Obama on the 18-24 vote.
Why do you think this? From my understanding Ron Paul is more of an isolationist. I don't think you dems would have liked him at all.
|
|
|
|
|
RE: Is abortion a dead issue? - 11/5/2008 12:24:32 AM
|
|
|
Sonrise
Posts: 163
Joined: 5/19/2007
Status: offline
|
quote:
ORIGINAL: GregandJenny
i don't think it's dead, i just think that people are tired of hearing talk about it and no action. Therefore for many people don't think anyone will do anything about it.
G
What on earth are you talking about? Bush signed the ban on partial birth abortion, a huge stride in the pro-life movement, which sadly Nobama will overturn once he signs FOCA. Knowledge is key.
|
|
|
|
|
RE: Is abortion a dead issue? - 11/5/2008 12:27:19 AM
|
|
|
GregandJenny
Posts: 676
Joined: 2/16/2006
From: Near Seattle Washington
Status: offline
|
quote:
What on earth are you talking about? Bush signed the ban on partial birth abortion, a huge stride in the pro-life movement, which sadly Nobama will overturn once he signs FOCA. Knowledge is key.
They are not moving fast enough I guess for some. I agree with you that Bush tried. But i believe that most people aren't looking for strides, they are looking for the finish and we haven't seen that.
_____________________________
It does not have to be well with my circumstance to be well with my soul!
|
|
|
|
|
RE: Is abortion a dead issue? - 11/5/2008 12:33:30 AM
|
|
|
Jhud
Posts: 7627
Joined: 4/11/2005
From: Lake Wobegon
Status: offline
|
I don't know if it is dead.
I do know if a significant faction think that is the case, and think that they have no voice on this and other issues, that they will probably abandon involvement in the political arena; and some may think that is a good thing, but I think we will find out in fairly short order that this is an impoverishing thing for our country.
_____________________________
Jack
I believe in Christianity as I believe that the sun has risen: not only because I see it, but because by it I see everything else.
- C.S. Lewis
|
|
|
|
|
RE: Is abortion a dead issue? - 11/5/2008 7:12:39 AM
|
|
|
ekserekseez
Posts: 693
Joined: 7/3/2008
Status: offline
|
I understand that many people here oppose abortion as a moral issue. However, fiscal and small-government conservatives will NEVER retain power for long in the US until they abandon abortion as a litmus test.
Many of us vote for small government and fiscally responsible leaders, and don't care one way or another about their stand on abortion. Many MANY MANY more people would vote for conservatives if they dropped this issue. And in the long run, the results of fiscal conservatism and small government will actually reduce the number of abortions.
I personally don't care if a candidate had or caused an abortion, or a thousand abortions. If he or she lowers my taxes and reduces the powers of the federal government back to constitutional limits, that's my candidate.
Abortion, the non-issue.
|
|
|
|
|
RE: Is abortion a dead issue? - 11/5/2008 7:51:17 AM
|
|
|
GVfan
Posts: 17787
Joined: 3/28/2006
From: The Peach State
Status: offline
|
quote:
ORIGINAL: ekserekseez
I understand that many people here oppose abortion as a moral issue. However, fiscal and small-government conservatives will NEVER retain power for long in the US until they abandon abortion as a litmus test.
Many of us vote for small government and fiscally responsible leaders, and don't care one way or another about their stand on abortion. Many MANY MANY more people would vote for conservatives if they dropped this issue. And in the long run, the results of fiscal conservatism and small government will actually reduce the number of abortions.
I personally don't care if a candidate had or caused an abortion, or a thousand abortions. If he or she lowers my taxes and reduces the powers of the federal government back to constitutional limits, that's my candidate.
Abortion, the non-issue.
Nope, it is NOT a non-issue. If someone cares so little for life that they would end a life voluntarily, I cannot vote for them. Abortion is wrong and there is no way around it. It is murder. It will always be an issue for me and I will not be selfish and put my pocketbook ahead of this issue. Nor would I have the Republican party pimp itself out by dropping the abortion issue so that they could get more votes!
_____________________________
Donna Hefner
Acworth, Ga.
Come visit me at
http://www.myspace.com/donnashappenings
And my BLOG, Keepin' An Eye on Greater
|
|
|
|
|
RE: Is abortion a dead issue? - 11/5/2008 7:54:46 AM
|
|
|
ekserekseez
Posts: 693
Joined: 7/3/2008
Status: offline
|
quote:
Nope, it is NOT a non-issue. If someone cares so little for life that they would end a life voluntarily, I cannot vote for them. Abortion is wrong and there is no way around it. It is murder. It will always be an issue for me and I will not be selfish and put my pocketbook ahead of this issue. Nor would I have the Republican party pimp itself out by dropping the abortion issue so that they could get more votes!
As I said, I understand that many people on these forums feel the way you do. Outside of these forums, not so much.
Abortion is going to become a dead issue in the near future, largely through technology.
|
|
|
|
|
RE: Is abortion a dead issue? - 11/5/2008 8:26:23 AM
|
|
|
SonInMe1
Posts: 3164
Joined: 4/16/2005
From: my mom by God
Status: offline
|
Life begins at conception. There is no other christian position in this reguard. None.
It does not sadden me that democrats want legal abortions. It saddens me that democrat christians do. It saddens me greatly. I don't care what the world thinks. I do care what christians think. If I cared what the world thought I would post in secular forums. I do not.
Abortion colors a politician like no other issue. A pro-abortion candidate has no respect for life. Considers self to be more important than sacrifice. Puts irresponsibility above personal responsibility.
Its a huge issue. Probably, the biggest.
When your mother's egg met your father's sperm, you were created. In anytime after that, the death of that cell group would be your death. THAT....is abortion. LIFE begins at conception. No question. No doubt. Its 100%. No arguement. There is NONE.
_____________________________
You adulterous people, don't you know that friendship with the world is hatred toward God? Anyone who chooses to be a friend of the world becomes an enemy of God.
James 4:4
|
|
|
|
 New Messages |
 No New Messages |
 Hot Topic w/ New Messages |
 Hot Topic w/o New Messages |
 Locked w/ New Messages |
 Locked w/o New Messages |
|
 Post New Thread
Reply to Message
Post New Poll
Submit Vote
Delete My Own Post
Delete My Own Thread
Rate Posts |
|
|
Forum Tools
Printable Version
