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Is Our Political Model Obsolete? - 11/28/2008 1:59:27 AM
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SavedToo
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I think it was a great model back in the 1800s with travel being so difficult, but with the technology we have today, why do we need congress any more? They have shown themselves to be utterly corrupt and lacking in integrity. I say let the people vote. If congress wants to give them selves a $120,000 lift time retirement package, let the people vote on it. If the people all voted on the passage of all laws, it would clean up congress in a heart beat. Sure congress can stick around and write the laws, but the people should decide on what becomes law.
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RE: Is Our Political Model Obsolete? - 11/28/2008 8:35:52 AM
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its_GO_time
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Walter Williams has a column, saying that there should be a Rep., for every 40,000 citizens;
"Today, each representative represents close to 700,000. If we lived up to the vision of our founders, given today's population, we would have about 7,500 congressmen in the House of Representatives."
Here's the whole column.
_____________________________
"Few men desire liberty; most men wish only for a just master" - Sallust
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RE: Is Our Political Model Obsolete? - 11/28/2008 10:12:12 AM
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huangshan
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Someone needs to re-read Federalist 10
I think the country would last about one voting cycle before it would collapse in on itself. A deliberative body, flawed though they always are, are greatly more desirable than direct democracy. The founders didn't make congress 'cause transportation was slow, they made congress because they knew that people voting willy-nilly would gut democracy faster than any monarch could ever aspire to.
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RE: Is Our Political Model Obsolete? - 11/28/2008 10:36:32 AM
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Jhud
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quote:
Someone needs to re-read Federalist 10
I think the country would last about one voting cycle before it would collapse in on itself. A deliberative body, flawed though they always are, are greatly more desirable than direct democracy. The founders didn't make congress 'cause transportation was slow, they made congress because they knew that people voting willy-nilly would gut democracy faster than any monarch could ever aspire to.
That is something I totally agree with.
Another Federalist paper I recommend is Federalist 51 – where it describes how to check the power of the government. Contrary to this notion of ‘bi-partisanship’ it is expected that our government will be operated by flawed, self-interested agents. To counteract the inevitable corruption of such a body, the Founders very wisely set up a government where one interest is played against another – and as each ‘faction’ vies for it’s interests, it checks the ability of other factions to gain to much power.
Within such a system of course there are certain fundamental rights that must be protected – and these acts as the ‘rules of the game’ as it were which everyone must follow. Though interestingly at that time it was assumed the process itself would protect those basic rights, and specific delinations of them were unnecessary.
Interestingly, I think this solves the whole secular/religious issue if we see that secularist and various religious groups all form their own factions, and instead of trying to separate them we let them contest each other in a free and fair way as they pursue their often contradictory interests, it would maintain a sufficient check on any group gaining too much power.
And as an aside, I think one of the greatest tragedies of our education, one that I find to be more criminal than any other educational lack, is the fact that American citizens are by and large completely ignorant of these principles.
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Jack
I believe in Christianity as I believe that the sun has risen: not only because I see it, but because by it I see everything else.
- C.S. Lewis
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RE: Is Our Political Model Obsolete? - 11/28/2008 8:01:44 PM
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litfire2000
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Jhud
And as an aside, I think one of the greatest tragedies of our education, one that I find to be more criminal than any other educational lack, is the fact that American citizens are by and large completely ignorant of these principles.
I wish every American child had the opportunity to sit in a civics class taught by such as my eighth grade teacher Mr. Bains. He loved America and our system of government. At the end of the year, even as young as we were, we were well informed about our system of government. This proves that when one teaches from the heart, lives are touched and children and adults learn.
_____________________________
Ps. 122:6 Pray for the peace of Jerusalem
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RE: Is Our Political Model Obsolete? - 11/28/2008 11:08:47 PM
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SonInMe1
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I think our two party system is obsolete. In an attempt to be elected each party has drifted toward the center, which has made each party inept.
If there is a silver lining to this election it...seems....a real division in parties may happen again.
_____________________________
You adulterous people, don't you know that friendship with the world is hatred toward God? Anyone who chooses to be a friend of the world becomes an enemy of God.
James 4:4
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RE: Is Our Political Model Obsolete? - 11/29/2008 1:40:26 AM
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zamdad
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quote:
In an attempt to be elected each party has drifted toward the center
Why does it feel like the center keeps moving left?
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The two hardest things to handle: failure and success.
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RE: Is Our Political Model Obsolete? - 11/29/2008 5:25:54 AM
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SonInMe1
Posts: 3164
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It moved left with this election but I am afraid the politics of the winner was less a factor than his race and being the first black to hold the office of the president.
Now, as a little aside, when Obama falls falt on his face, how will THAT effect racial relations in this nation? I just would have hoped the first black president would at least have some qualifications and ability.
_____________________________
You adulterous people, don't you know that friendship with the world is hatred toward God? Anyone who chooses to be a friend of the world becomes an enemy of God.
James 4:4
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RE: Is Our Political Model Obsolete? - 11/29/2008 7:41:54 AM
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gcsmithjr
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quote:
If we lived up to the vision of our founders, given today's population, we would have about 7,500 congressmen in the House of Representatives.
That is the scariest thing I've read in a long time, can you imagine 7,500 of congressmen running around.....
quote:
If the people all voted on the passage of all laws, it would clean up congress in a heart beat.
I too am in total agreement with huangshan and Jhud on this, our entire political system would collapse if we were to abolish the current political model (as ugly as it is).
First of all, the Senate and the House consider thousands of bills each year (3,717 in the Senate 7,307 in the House in 2007), even if you were to cut that number down to the number of bills that pass each year, we would still have to vote on more than 300 laws each year (and most of the more important bills are hundreds of pages long).
Second, many of those bills are Federal laws that mainly impact a particular region or segment of the population - do we expect people in New York City and Los Angeles to understand and vote on a law that primarily affects farmers (and do you expect farmers in Kansas to understand and vote on legislation that helps fund public transportation in New York and Los Angeles).
Finally, as flawed as our system it, it requires at least a majority of our elected representatives to pass a law (not a majority of those who vote, but a majority of the members of the House and Senate). A change would require us to accept one of two things: Either we avoid gridlock by allowing laws to be passed by a majority of those who actually cast their ballot - allowing a relatively small percentage of people to enact laws (so with a 60% turnout we would be allowing 30% plus 1 person to enact a law that affects all of us), or we require a majority of registered voters to pass a law - in which case nothing would ever get passed.
As ugly and inefficient as our system can be at times, it's still better than the alernatives.
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RE: Is Our Political Model Obsolete? - 11/29/2008 8:45:51 AM
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its_GO_time
Posts: 255
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quote:
ORIGINAL: gcsmithjr
quote:
If we lived up to the vision of our founders, given today's population, we would have about 7,500 congressmen in the House of Representatives.
That is the scariest thing I've read in a long time, can you imagine 7,500 of congressmen running around.....
"Numerous bodies ... are less subject to venality and corruption. " (James Madison). I agree that 7,500 congressmen, is a scary thought; However it would be quite difficult, to place cash in the freezers, of enough of them, to buy them off. They might actually have to work for a change.
_____________________________
"Few men desire liberty; most men wish only for a just master" - Sallust
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RE: Is Our Political Model Obsolete? - 11/29/2008 2:10:13 PM
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PaleHawkWoman
Posts: 645
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quote:
ORIGINAL: litfire2000
quote:
ORIGINAL: Jhud
And as an aside, I think one of the greatest tragedies of our education, one that I find to be more criminal than any other educational lack, is the fact that American citizens are by and large completely ignorant of these principles.
I wish every American child had the opportunity to sit in a civics class taught by such as my eighth grade teacher Mr. Bains. He loved America and our system of government. At the end of the year, even as young as we were, we were well informed about our system of government. This proves that when one teaches from the heart, lives are touched and children and adults learn.
Take heart, I hear that Civics classes may be coming back! I hope so, as citizenship is not just a right but a responsibility. We have the right to choose our representatives and the responsibility to understand the process by which this is done.
In advocating for an public school system Thomas Jefferson stated that an educated populace was needed in order for a democratic republic to function for the prosperity of the citzenry.
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RE: Is Our Political Model Obsolete? - 11/30/2008 12:47:38 AM
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leonfigg3
Posts: 377
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quote:
ORIGINAL: its_GO_time
I agree that 7,500 congressmen, is a scary thought; However it would be quite difficult, to place cash in the freezers, of enough of them, to buy them off. They might actually have to work for a change.
Interesting idea except that we can not get the Congressmen we have now to do anything. How are we going to get many more times that number to do anything?
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RE: Is Our Political Model Obsolete? - 11/30/2008 10:55:20 AM
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SonInMe1
Posts: 3164
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We need to go back to part time unpaid representatives.
_____________________________
You adulterous people, don't you know that friendship with the world is hatred toward God? Anyone who chooses to be a friend of the world becomes an enemy of God.
James 4:4
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