If Roe vs. Wade was Overturned what should the punishment be
View related threads:
(in this forum
| in all forums)
|
Logged in as: Guest
|
|
Users viewing this topic:
none
|
|
Login  | |
|
If Roe vs. Wade was Overturned what should the punishme... - 11/14/2008 2:22:58 PM
|
|
|
His_4_Ever
Posts: 599
Joined: 10/4/2008
From: Idaho
Status: offline
|
If Roe vs. Wade was overturned what should the punishment be for the doctors who continue to provide abortions? What should be the punishment for the teens, young adult women and women? What about the women who choose to live themselves rather than sacrifice their lives for their unborn child? What about those who travel out of the country to seek an abortion?
|
|
|
|
|
RE: If Roe vs. Wade was Overturned what should the puni... - 11/14/2008 2:44:50 PM
|
|
|
P31W
Posts: 2942
Joined: 6/13/2005
Status: offline
|
quote:
If Roe vs. Wade was overturned what should the punishment be for the doctors who continue to provide abortions?
Jail time and lose their licenses for those who would preform "illegal abortions". Nothing should happen to those who preform legal ones.
.
quote:
What should be the punishment for the teens, young adult women and women?
Jail time just like we would do if they killed their baby twenty seconds after they take it home.
Scott Petterson was charged in the muder of his unborn child. Men should not be exempt from the muder charge either.
quote:
What about the women who choose to live themselves rather than sacrifice their lives for their unborn child?
That really has nothing to do with RvW being overturned. It's never been illegal in my state to have an abortion if the mother's life is in danger. I am unware of any one whose doctors told them it was a medical necessity being sent to jail before RvW allowed "abortion on demand".
quote:
What about those who travel out of the country to seek an abortion?
How is that handled now when a person murders their child overseas?
< Message edited by P31W -- 11/14/2008 2:53:40 PM >
|
|
|
|
|
RE: If Roe vs. Wade was Overturned what should the puni... - 11/14/2008 2:47:19 PM
|
|
|
P31W
Posts: 2942
Joined: 6/13/2005
Status: offline
|
quote:
I am required to block certain members and cannot see what they post or respond to them. I cannot fairly defend some of my posts.
The mod's require that you block certain posters?
< Message edited by P31W -- 11/14/2008 3:01:10 PM >
|
|
|
|
|
RE: If Roe vs. Wade was Overturned what should the puni... - 11/14/2008 3:37:23 PM
|
|
|
His_4_Ever
Posts: 599
Joined: 10/4/2008
From: Idaho
Status: offline
|
quote:
ORIGINAL: P31W
If Roe vs. Wade was overturned what should the punishment be for the doctors who continue to provide abortions?
Jail time and lose their licenses for those who would preform "illegal abortions". Nothing should happen to those who preform legal ones.
That might stop some but not all. According too those who are really conservative there wouldn't even be legal abortions.
.
quote:
What should be the punishment for the teens, young adult women and women?
Jail time just like we would do if they killed their baby twenty seconds after they take it home.
Scott Peterson was charged in the murder of his unborn child. Men should not be exempt from the murder charge either.
Our juvenile and prison systems would become congested going by yearly abortion statistics. What would putting these teens, young adult women and women really accomplish?
In the Peterson case the only reason he was charged with the baby's death was because the baby was already 7 months along and would have survived a live birth.
quote:
What about the women who choose to live themselves rather than sacrifice their lives for their unborn child?
That really has nothing to do with RvW being overturned. It's never been illegal in my state to have an abortion if the mother's life is in danger. I am unware of any one whose doctors told them it was a medical necessity being sent to jail before RvW allowed "abortion on demand".
The real conservatives would make this illegal. The babies life would come before the mother's.
quote:
What about those who travel out of the country to seek an abortion?
How is that handled now when a person murders their child overseas?
Not sure myself.
|
|
|
|
|
RE: If Roe vs. Wade was Overturned what should the puni... - 11/14/2008 6:01:02 PM
|
|
|
tomhillbilly
Posts: 233
Joined: 3/18/2008
Status: offline
|
I suppose i should look it up myself and i will try....my question is about whether God demands capital punishment for certain crimes
|
|
|
|
|
RE: If Roe vs. Wade was Overturned what should the puni... - 11/14/2008 6:34:20 PM
|
|
|
Bluethread
Posts: 1666
Joined: 11/8/2007
Status: offline
|
There would be no federal penalty if Roe vs. Wade were overturned. Roe vs. Wade states that abortion is a right of privacy. If it is not a right of privacy or there is no constitutional right to privacy, the federal government has no right to decide the issue one way or the other. The decision is reserved to the people and the states under the long forgotten 10th ammendment.
_____________________________
"Show me wherein I have errored and I will hold my tongue." Iyov(Job)
|
|
|
|
|
RE: If Roe vs. Wade was Overturned what should the puni... - 11/14/2008 6:51:26 PM
|
|
|
His_4_Ever
Posts: 599
Joined: 10/4/2008
From: Idaho
Status: offline
|
quote:
ORIGINAL: tomhillbilly
I suppose i should look it up myself and i will try....my question is about whether God demands capital punishment for certain crimes
I know in the OT somethings came under capital punishment, but we are under the New Covenant and I don't recall anything falling under capital punishment.
|
|
|
|
|
RE: If Roe vs. Wade was Overturned what should the puni... - 11/14/2008 7:31:24 PM
|
|
|
leonfigg3
Posts: 377
Joined: 5/7/2007
Status: offline
|
Thank you Bluethread.
If Roe v Wade was over turned, I would hope hat it not be done leaving a vaccuum as to what should be put in it's place. IMO there should be some court mandated guidelines by which doctors, patients, and families would know where they stand in the event that an abortion be deemed medically and ethicly necessary.
I have heard, that if Roe v Wade were to be overturned the issue of abortion would be returned to the state level meaning that it would, most likely, become a Supreme Court issue some day in the future.
What is with all this talk of punishing people for abortion whether they be dpctor, patient, or family?
Why do we Christians have to go there?
Has the issue and fight over abortion so warped some of us that we are willing to sacrifice our Christianity-our souls- to make sure people who have been or are involved in abortion pay for their sin, no matter the circumstances?
The question of who and why someone should be punished for abortion should be viewed on a case by case basis. Also, to my knowledge, that does not fall under the responsibility of the Supreme Court.
Yes there are some business people, doctors, and patients. are and have been involved in abortion for some kind of financial gain, and notariatity. However, this is not truet in all cases.
I pray that if Roe v Wade ever be over turned that some sense of Christianity and civility and sense be returned to the issue of abortion.
The issue of abortion existed long before Roe v Wade, and will continue to exist long after that Supreme Court ruling is ever overrurned. That is what we need to focus on.
< Message edited by leonfigg3 -- 11/14/2008 7:37:30 PM >
|
|
|
|
|
RE: If Roe vs. Wade was Overturned what should the puni... - 11/15/2008 5:57:08 AM
|
|
|
tomhillbilly
Posts: 233
Joined: 3/18/2008
Status: offline
|
i still have to do some searching on this unless someone happens to remember exactly.
In old testament the purpose of public example of punishment was "these things will cease from happening among you"
Say for example a serial-killer that becomes famous for his crimes- they should be executed publically so people would see and fear, and people would be deterred from doing these things.
|
|
|
|
|
RE: If Roe vs. Wade was Overturned what should the puni... - 11/15/2008 11:57:46 AM
|
|
|
zamdad
Posts: 1749
Joined: 4/8/2005
Status: offline
|
quote:
Say for example a serial-killer that becomes famous for his crimes- they should be executed publically so people would see and fear, and people would be deterred from doing these things.
Would it truly be a deterrent? This is one of the questions asked at sentencing in criminal cases. We are exposed to so much stuff in the media that we find it difficult to seperate illusion from reality.
_____________________________
The two hardest things to handle: failure and success.
|
|
|
|
|
RE: If Roe vs. Wade was Overturned what should the puni... - 11/15/2008 1:59:57 PM
|
|
|
rcjames
Posts: 5771
Joined: 7/15/2005
From: Oklahoma
Status: offline
|
quote:
ORIGINAL: campbe33
If Roe vs. Wade was overturned what should the punishment be for the doctors who continue to provide abortions?
It should be severe as in some sort of homicide charge, and loose thier liscense for life.
quote:
What should be the punishment for the teens, young adult women and women?
It should be severe as in aiding and/or abetting a homicide.
quote:
What about the women who choose to live themselves rather than sacrifice their lives for their unborn child?
There is not enough "the mother will die if she doesn't about" cases to even consider. And besides overturning Roe v Wade would not outlaw that type of situation.
quote:
What about those who travel out of the country to seek an abortion?
Not much could be done. Pedophiles go outside the country to practice their sin, so I guess mothers to be who wanted to kill their babies could do the same.
Thanks
RC
_____________________________
Just a country Preacher's humble opinion
Read the first chapter of my latest book here;
http://www.deliveranceofsara.com
|
|
|
|
|
RE: If Roe vs. Wade was Overturned what should the puni... - 11/15/2008 11:38:34 PM
|
|
|
Bluethread
Posts: 1666
Joined: 11/8/2007
Status: offline
|
quote:
ORIGINAL: tomhillbilly
i still have to do some searching on this unless someone happens to remember exactly.
In old testament the purpose of public example of punishment was "these things will cease from happening among you"
Say for example a serial-killer that becomes famous for his crimes- they should be executed publically so people would see and fear, and people would be deterred from doing these things.
An implication with all of the commandments is that of an example, but that is not the only reason given. I can't find specific verse regarding execution of a murderer being an example. Num. 35 is the chapter regarding murder and emphasis in that chapter is protecting the innocent. The most repeated reason for the commandments is that we are to be different(holy) from those around us. Until recently, the last hundred years or so, few have defended the rights of accused murderers. In fact, "cruel and unusual punishment" was more a matter of torture than execution at the time of the writing of the bill of rights. Throughout history execution of a murderer was a no brainer, what has been argued is what constitutes murder. Many ancient societies, among them the canaanites, did not see infanticide as murder. That is one of the things that makes the bible stand out as being peculiarly human, even though some today like to call it cruel.
_____________________________
"Show me wherein I have errored and I will hold my tongue." Iyov(Job)
|
|
|
|
|
RE: If Roe vs. Wade was Overturned what should the puni... - 11/16/2008 9:27:21 AM
|
|
|
SonInMe1
Posts: 3164
Joined: 4/16/2005
From: my mom by God
Status: offline
|
I believe that the vast majority of cases where the pregnancy threatens the mother's life the baby would not survive the pregnancy anyways...I believe its like 99%.
I believe the doctors should face the brunt of penalty in these cases. If no doctors can perfrom abortions they will certainly drop in number.
If one gets an illegal abortion...I think each state or district should decide the penalty. With abortion being illegal the number of abortions would drop..and possibly the number of pregancies as well. When there are consequences people think twice before acting.
_____________________________
You adulterous people, don't you know that friendship with the world is hatred toward God? Anyone who chooses to be a friend of the world becomes an enemy of God.
James 4:4
|
|
|
|
|
RE: If Roe vs. Wade was Overturned what should the puni... - 11/16/2008 11:17:16 AM
|
|
|
ekserekseez
Posts: 693
Joined: 7/3/2008
Status: offline
|
I don't have an opinion on abortion, but if you truly believe that it is murder, then a person performing an abortion should be charged with 1st degree, premeditated murder. The woman getting the abortion, unless she's in a coma and it's being done without her knowledge, should be charged the same (it's criminal conspiracy and solicitation, which generally carry the same charges as the crime itself).
|
|
|
|
|
RE: If Roe vs. Wade was Overturned what should the puni... - 11/17/2008 12:59:51 AM
|
|
|
leonfigg3
Posts: 377
Joined: 5/7/2007
Status: offline
|
I have some questions for all those on this thread who are anxious to make sure and see to it that those involved in abortion in any way shape or form are as serious as you seem to be?
Are you willing to put your actions where your words are and actually take part in this holocaust?
What time frame are we to looko at? Are we to look at abortion records from the beginning of time, or just those from the time the American Supreme Court decided that a person's reight to privacy somehow, in someway had something to do with legalizing abortion, to the present day or until the date that the Supreme Court overturn's its decision?
Or should we somehow absolve all those people and begin only from the time that the Supreme Court overturns its decision?
Where are you going to in prison them until you decide what heir punishment should be, and how it should be administered?
Where in the Bible are you given the authority to be judge, jury, and execution of these people?
What should your punishment ultimately be?
Bottom line-
How is punishing those who have had a hand in abortion in any kind of way, for any kind of reason really going to have any kind of affect on the issue of abortion?
|
|
|
|
|
RE: If Roe vs. Wade was Overturned what should the puni... - 11/17/2008 9:11:11 AM
|
|
|
rcjames
Posts: 5771
Joined: 7/15/2005
From: Oklahoma
Status: offline
|
quote:
ORIGINAL: leonfigg3
I have some questions for all those on this thread who are anxious to make sure and see to it that those involved in abortion in any way shape or form are as serious as you seem to be?
Are you willing to put your actions where your words are and actually take part in this holocaust?
What time frame are we to looko at? Are we to look at abortion records from the beginning of time, or just those from the time the American Supreme Court decided that a person's reight to privacy somehow, in someway had something to do with legalizing abortion, to the present day or until the date that the Supreme Court overturn's its decision?
Or should we somehow absolve all those people and begin only from the time that the Supreme Court overturns its decision?
Where are you going to in prison them until you decide what heir punishment should be, and how it should be administered?
Where in the Bible are you given the authority to be judge, jury, and execution of these people?
What should your punishment ultimately be?
Bottom line-
How is punishing those who have had a hand in abortion in any kind of way, for any kind of reason really going to have any kind of affect on the issue of abortion?
If Roe is overturned then the state (society) will be responsible to meet out proper punishment for breaking the states (society's) law.
Before Roe, during Roe, and after Row those involved in the murder of innocent children will still be accountable to God for thier actions; And I pesonally think that will include those who vote for politicians that they know are going to make this murder easier, more affordable, and more common.
Thanks
RC
_____________________________
Just a country Preacher's humble opinion
Read the first chapter of my latest book here;
http://www.deliveranceofsara.com
|
|
|
|
|
RE: If Roe vs. Wade was Overturned what should the puni... - 11/17/2008 2:26:44 PM
|
|
|
cow451
Posts: 3970
Joined: 5/6/2005
Status: offline
|
quote:
ORIGINAL: Bluethread
There would be no federal penalty if Roe vs. Wade were overturned. Roe vs. Wade states that abortion is a right of privacy. If it is not a right of privacy or there is no constitutional right to privacy, the federal government has no right to decide the issue one way or the other. The decision is reserved to the people and the states under the long forgotten 10th ammendment.
Very few people realize that privacy was the issue with Roe v Wade.
_____________________________
Nobody ever heard of Acid Rain before we sent people into space.
|
|
|
|
|
RE: If Roe vs. Wade was Overturned what should the puni... - 11/17/2008 3:18:50 PM
|
|
|
rcjames
Posts: 5771
Joined: 7/15/2005
From: Oklahoma
Status: offline
|
quote:
ORIGINAL: cow451
Very few people realize that privacy was the issue with Roe v Wade.
You are correct cow451, and iit is even more amazing that a majority of the Surpreme Court thought that abortion was a privacy issue.\.
But even those Supreme Court Judges who thought so cannot excape;
(2Co 5:10) For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ; that every one may receive the things done in his body, according to that he hath done, whether it be good or bad.
Thanks
RC
_____________________________
Just a country Preacher's humble opinion
Read the first chapter of my latest book here;
http://www.deliveranceofsara.com
|
|
|
|
|
RE: If Roe vs. Wade was Overturned what should the puni... - 11/18/2008 8:07:58 AM
|
|
|
P31W
Posts: 2942
Joined: 6/13/2005
Status: offline
|
quote:
What is with all this talk of punishing people for abortion whether they be dpctor, patient, or family?
Why do we Christians have to go there?
Because "we" know it's murder and we serve God rather than man.
Prov. 24:11 Rescue those who are unjustly sentenced to death; don't stand back and let them die. 12 Don't try to avoid responsibility by saying you didn't know about it. For God knows all hearts, and he sees you. He keeps watch over your soul, and he knows you knew! And he will judge all people according to what they have done.
Because "we" know that it's a creation of God himself made in "His Image".
Because "we" know it's wrong.
Because "we" know that innocent blood cries out to God and in scripture we find that God has always punished those who either stood by without doing something to intervene or were active in shedding innocent blood were punished by God Himself.
Because "we" hate what God hates. Our new nature is going to be against what God is against.
16 There are six things the Lord hates, seven that are detestable to him: 17 haughty eyes, a lying tongue, hands that shed innocent blood, 18 a heart that devises wicked schemes, feet that are quick to rush into evil, 19 a false witness who pours out lies and a man who stirs up dissension among brothers.
< Message edited by P31W -- 11/18/2008 8:24:05 AM >
|
|
|
|
|
RE: If Roe vs. Wade was Overturned what should the puni... - 11/18/2008 8:09:44 AM
|
|
|
P31W
Posts: 2942
Joined: 6/13/2005
Status: offline
|
quote:
I know in the OT somethings came under capital punishment, but we are under the New Covenant and I don't recall anything falling under capital punishment.
The government is given the sword by God to punish evil doers. Romans 13
God telling us about what authority and purpose he gave to the government
Rom. 15
4 For he is God's servant to do you good. But if you do wrong, be afraid, for he does not bear the sword for nothing. He is God's servant, an agent of wrath to bring punishment on the wrongdoer.
Paul himself confirmed captial punishment as did Jesus.
Paul speaking here in
Ac 25:11
If, however, I am guilty of doing anything deserving death, I do not refuse to die. But if the charges brought against me by these Jews are not true, no one has the right to hand me over to them. I appeal to Caesar!"
Jesus speaking
Mt 26:52
"Put your sword back in its place," Jesus said to him, "for all who draw the sword will die by the sword.
quote:
Our juvenile and prison systems would become congested going by yearly abortion statistics.
Surely when something is deemed illegal the citizens will try to obey that law?
quote:
What would putting these teens, young adult women and women really accomplish?
Murder rate reduced dramatically.
< Message edited by P31W -- 11/18/2008 8:25:56 AM >
|
|
|
|
|
RE: If Roe vs. Wade was Overturned what should the puni... - 11/18/2008 8:44:45 AM
|
|
|
leonfigg3
Posts: 377
Joined: 5/7/2007
Status: offline
|
I quess I am having trouble with this thread is because so many "Christians" appear to be so anxious to punish just about everyone who ever has had an abortion, or who has ever been involved in an abortion that it seems to me that they are in hurry to see people punished not so much because it is against scripture, as it it against their sensibilities. Sort of like the people who caught the woman in adultery and brought her before Jesus. They too were anxious to see the woman punished, but Jesus better understood the situation and refused to find her quilty and worthy of punishment.
It also strikes me that many "Christians" are more concerned with the spek (sin) in someone eles' thatn they are concerned about the log in their eye (sin).
It also strikes me that many "Christians" are more interested in doing something that will help them feel like they are doing something (punishing people in the abortion industry, and who ever had an abortion)than actually doing something that will make a difference (finding a way to combat the perceived need for abotion).
|
|
|
|
|
RE: If Roe vs. Wade was Overturned what should the puni... - 11/18/2008 8:53:00 AM
|
|
|
P31W
Posts: 2942
Joined: 6/13/2005
Status: offline
|
Do you also take that stand when we stand up against child abuse?
Do you see that Christians are "only" concerned with punishment and not the protection of the "innocent"?
What about rape victoms when Christians stand up for stricter rape laws? Do you think that too is "only" about punishment and not prevent?
Funny how "you" view Christians. 
quote:
It also strikes me that many "Christians" are more concerned with the spek (sin) in someone eles' thatn they are concerned about the log in their eye (sin).
Two days ago a four year old was found starved to death here in my state. Three other children were also at the point of death in that home.
Two adult women (grandmother and aunt) were arrested and charged with murder.
Why you call that a "speck" is beyond me?
quote:
It also strikes me that many "Christians" are more interested in doing something that will help them feel like they are doing something (punishing people in the abortion industry, and who ever had an abortion)than actually doing something that will make a difference (finding a way to combat the perceived need for abotion).
Probably hands down by far the most active Christians in my community in both witnessing and helping the needy are the pro-lifers.
I believe there have been more than just a "few studied" by conservatives, liberals, christians and non christians that bear that fact out.
|
|
|
|
|
RE: If Roe vs. Wade was Overturned what should the puni... - 11/18/2008 9:13:57 AM
|
|
|
leonfigg3
Posts: 377
Joined: 5/7/2007
Status: offline
|
The issue of this thread and that is on the table for discussion is the abortion issue not child abuse, or neglect. That is a seperate matter.
My main issue and concern about the issue of abortion and a Christian response to it, is that I feel and see far too many Christians so wrapped up in the issue of abortion that they really do not care about the issue or what a Christ like response to it should be. They certainly do not care about the people that find themselves having to deal with it.
Look at how many "Christians" on this thread want capital punishment, and aparently want it applied equally to those who had to make the decision and those that have profitted from it. To me there is a difference. A BIG DIFFERENCE.
Maybe what bothers people about my views about abortion is that I am just asking for "Christians" to be a little Christ-like thinking in the matter and understand each and every situation better than try to group all instances of abortion together so it is less complicated for them to deal with.
Maybe what bothers people on this thread, and similiar threads about abortion, is that I am more in favor of Christians that are involved in ministry to people that find themselves dealing with abortion (I wish I could do more in that direction), than "Christians" who take the "in your face" approach to the issue. I believe that it is the ministry to people who are affected by abortion that is going to best and most lasting difference to the issue, that those who follow the "in your face" mentality.
< Message edited by leonfigg3 -- 11/18/2008 9:26:08 AM >
|
|
|
|
|
RE: If Roe vs. Wade was Overturned what should the puni... - 11/18/2008 9:23:11 AM
|
|
|
P31W
Posts: 2942
Joined: 6/13/2005
Status: offline
|
quote:
The issue of this thread and that is on the table for discussion is the abortion issue not child abuse, or neglect. That is a seperate matter.
I said the four year old was DEAD and the Aunt and Grandmother are charged with MURDER.
It is NOT a seperate issue.
quote:
They certainly do not care about the people that find themselves having to deal with it.
What a bunch of lies!!!!
Are you a Christian?
Please don't lie about what we do or who we care about. We care about "all" people.
Most pro life groups even offer post abortion help of course you appear to know next to nothing about us!
< Message edited by P31W -- 11/18/2008 9:54:43 AM >
|
|
|
|
|
RE: If Roe vs. Wade was Overturned what should the puni... - 11/18/2008 10:15:35 AM
|
|
|
leonfigg3
Posts: 377
Joined: 5/7/2007
Status: offline
|
quote:
ORIGINAL: P31W
quote:
The issue of this thread and that is on the table for discussion is the abortion issue not child abuse, or neglect. That is a seperate matter.
I said the four year old was DEAD and the Aunt and Grandmother are charged with MURDER.
It is NOT a seperate issue.
That is your opinion.
That is how your experiences have taught you to see the matter.
My experiences have taught me to see it differently.
quote:
my quoite
They certainly do not care about the people that find themelves having to deal with it.
your quote
What a bunch of lies!!!!
May I suggest you calm down a read my posts again.
I am trying to draw a clear distinction between those involved in ministry from those that seem to be taking the more secular approach to addressing the issue by being in people's faces and demanding that everyone confirm to their view of Christianity. To me their their words do not speak, reflect, or act as an example of, in any way Christlike love for anyone.
quote:
Are you a Christian?
It would appear that many in this thread and similar threads, would not consider me a Christian because of my view on the issue of abortion.
I would imagine that a couple, that I have repeatedly held such discussions with, probobly do not see me as a Christian. However, I m confident that I am. I am confident that because of my life experiences Jesus has always been with me and as I endeavor to be sumbitted to Him He has seen me through issues in my life that only He could deal with, in His time.
The more I endeavor to be submitted to Him, the more I am able to be an empty vessel that He could work through.
quote:
Please don't lie about what we do or who we care about. We care about "all" people.
Once again, I draw a distinction between those that actually show love in word and deed, and those who only talk about it.
Now, I have no idea what Christians on this thread and in this forum do when they are not posting their opinions and views. I have no way of knowing whether or not they back up their words with action. I just have what is in front of me. What is in front of me are words and phrases organized and written in such a way that reflect the writer's mind and heart.
Sadly, what seems to be infront of me, more times than not, especially in relation to moral issues like of abortion, are opinions, thoughts, and views that do not accurately or fully reflect Christ-likeness, or Biblical quidance on how we Christians are to deal with people and issues.
For the record. Just because I do not see things as you see them, or I am not privy to all I need to know to make an accurate accessment of people, or issues, does not make my obervation, or yours (for that matter) a lie in any shape or form.
Accusing each other of "lies" does not help the discussion.
|
|
|
|
|
Forum Tools
Printable Version
