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Dishonest Friend - 9/24/2008 3:03:29 PM
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rural_gal
Posts: 17
Joined: 9/24/2008
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Hello! Newbie here.
I have a sticky situation. I have a friend who lies and acts in dishonest ways. We have been friends for about 5 years now, and my husband and I have had a mentor/mentoree (is that even a word??) relationship with the friend and her husband. Over the years, we have tried to help them get their finances in order (at the request of the pastor of our church), and try to live honest lives. (Admittedly, we are FAR from perfect, ourselves).
The wife of the pair just started working part time, the man receives a disability check. They currently receive food stamps to help out. The current problem is that the wife did not notify her case worker that she is now working. I believe (if the website is correct) that they now make too much money to qualify for food stamps. I asked the wife about this, and she said she talked to her case worker, and that everything was "about the same", even with her added income, meaning they would still receive food stamps. It didn't sound right to me (she has lied to us many times in the past), so the other day, I asked her about it again, and she admitted that she never told her case worker. I explained to her that she could be committing welfare fraud, and that she should at least call to find out what the maximum amount a family of 2 can earn, but she won't do it.
I know they like having the extra money coming in now, and she is even able to put money in the bank ($100 a week).
The problems I'm having with this are a) the whole fraud thing, and lying about it; b) the fact that this couple seems to have everyone in the church fooled -- no one else knows about the previous lies and the fact that she won't contact her case worker about her job. People give them food, money, gas cards, computers, clothes, you name it.
We attend a bible study together, and it is getting harder to just sit by and listen to this woman go on and on about how hard they have it, while I know what is going on behind the scenes. All the while, they end up getting more things from sympathetic people who want to help.
We have truly tried to be friends with these people, have put up with the lies and other dishonesties, hoping that eventually they would "do the right thing." They seem to be living two lives....one around "church friends" and another, totally different life around their "other" friends who engage in similiar dishonest behavior (buying things that they know they can't afford, and then changing their phone number to avoid the bill collectors, lying, etc.).
Should I continue the friendship and hope and pray for the best, or end it before I become more bitter about the whole thing? Confronting her does no go. I have done that (regarding they lying and paying for what you buy), but within a few days, she is back to this type of behavior.
She really feels that God is blessing her life with this new job, and all the things they have received from people. I hate the fact that I am not as merciful towards this couple as the rest of the world seems to be.
Thanks,
R.G.
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RE: Dishonest Friend - 9/24/2008 3:28:03 PM
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crankius
Posts: 4503
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It sounds like they need Biblical accountability.
Their lying and misleading people is clearly wrong. Your best advice is going to come from Scripture.
According to Matthew 18, you are to follow clear steps for handling their dishonesty.
quote:
Matthew 18:15-17 "Moreover if your brother sins against you, go and tell him his fault between you and him alone. If he hears you, you have gained your brother. But if he will not hear, take with you one or two more, that 'by the mouth of two or three witnesses every word may be established.' And if he refuses to hear them, tell it to the church. But if he refuses even to hear the church, let him be to you like a heathen and a tax collector.
1. Confront one-on-one. If they repent, then all is well. If not, or if they do not change and continue in their dishonesty, then go to step 2. (It sounds like you have already done this step.)
2. Confront with witnesses. In your case, since you and your husband are mentors over this couple under the leadership of your pastor, you could request a meeting with the couple and your pastor and maybe one or two other caring ministry leaders from the church. You and your husband could then confront the couple about their dishonesty. If they repent, then all is well. Your pastor and you and your husband could continue to help this couple. If they do not repent, or if they continue in their sin, then go to step 3.
3. They are to be confronted before the church. If they still do not repent, then the church will have to act according to Matthew 18.
The goal of all this is that the couple will repent and be restored into a healthy, loving relationship with the Church Body.
_____________________________
Do not be overly righteous, Nor be overly wise: Why should you destroy yourself?
Ecclesiastes 7:16
SYSTEMATIC THEOLOGY
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RE: Dishonest Friend - 9/24/2008 3:44:13 PM
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crankius
Posts: 4503
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I want to add that you are doing very well to be in a mentor position, and to have taken care of these people as you have.
Having accountability is very tough sometimes, and it puts you in a very difficult position. I don't envy you!
You do not have to stay in this mentor relationship if doing so means you also have to compromise your ethics, and especially if they continue to be dishonest. You are in a pickle, because you know they are not following the Welfare rules. It's unfair of them to put you in this position.
I do encourage you to take this to your pastor as the other witness in step 2. After that, if they continue to be dishonest, I think you can bow out of the mentor relationship and hand this couple over to the leadership of the church.
_____________________________
Do not be overly righteous, Nor be overly wise: Why should you destroy yourself?
Ecclesiastes 7:16
SYSTEMATIC THEOLOGY
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RE: Dishonest Friend - 9/24/2008 3:49:49 PM
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rural_gal
Posts: 17
Joined: 9/24/2008
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I'm sorry, I don't think I've been very clear (probably on a lot of aspects) about the mentoring issue. My husband and I stepped back from "formally" mentoring these folks, although I know the wife talks to the pastor often about our relationship, so he knows thiat we are still a part of their lives, just not as active (as far as the church is concerned). We found that there were just too many things that weren't being handled honestly. The problem is, we live in a very, very, very small town, and we have other friends that live in the same building as this couple, so it is nearly impossible "not" to have a relationship with them.
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RE: Dishonest Friend - 9/24/2008 3:56:05 PM
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crankius
Posts: 4503
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Ok.
The Matthew passage still applies, though.
_____________________________
Do not be overly righteous, Nor be overly wise: Why should you destroy yourself?
Ecclesiastes 7:16
SYSTEMATIC THEOLOGY
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RE: Dishonest Friend - 9/24/2008 4:07:08 PM
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Kellgaste
Posts: 407
Joined: 9/18/2008
From: Wyoming
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I Agree with Crank.
I would like your Hubby and You to discuss this/these question(s):
What does it mean to be a Friend/Call someone a Friend?
Example: I am 32 years old and can count my friends on 1 hand.
What standards are you setting and upholding?
Just something to think about Ma'am. The Sword of Truth (Bible) is the Operating procedures on how to Live. Since it is the Word of the Lord Jesus Christ it keeps us on the path of Truth even when the Boulders, Rockslides, Earthquakes, Snares, pitfalls open up/close in around us.
<warm smile>
God Bless and I hope this assists you and your Hubby in a right course of action.
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RE: Dishonest Friend - 9/24/2008 4:28:04 PM
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rural_gal
Posts: 17
Joined: 9/24/2008
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I'm not really sure what you were asking me in your post, but I'll try to answer it. (This is nothing you did, I am tired from chasing children around all day! :) )
I sincerely think that we have been good friends to these people. Some might call them the "unlovely" people that no one else likes to be around, but we've gone out of our way to invite them into our home for get togethers, cook outs,etc. I have taken the wife out to do "girl things", and I know for a fact that no other woman in the congregation has done this -- simply stating a fact, not tooting my own horn.
We have tried to live Godly lives (sometimes we succeed, sometimes we fail) and have tried to show them what it means to live a Godly life. One of the Bible studies we did together was on Godly character.
Thank you,
RG
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RE: Dishonest Friend - 9/24/2008 4:34:34 PM
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deermousie
Posts: 1849
Joined: 9/26/2007
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quote:
ORIGINAL: crankius
1. Confront one-on-one. If they repent, then all is well. If not, or if they do not change and continue in their dishonesty, then go to step 2. (It sounds like you have already done this step.)
2. Confront with witnesses. In your case, since you and your husband are mentors over this couple under the leadership of your pastor, you could request a meeting with the couple and your pastor and maybe one or two other caring ministry leaders from the church. You and your husband could then confront the couple about their dishonesty. If they repent, then all is well. Your pastor and you and your husband could continue to help this couple. If they do not repent, or if they continue in their sin, then go to step 3.
3. They are to be confronted before the church. If they still do not repent, then the church will have to act according to Matthew 18.
The goal of all this is that the couple will repent and be restored into a healthy, loving relationship with the Church Body.
Crankius is dead center - this is the perfect application time for Matthew 18. God told us this is how we handle these kinds of situations.
These people are lying and making you accomplices. It's hurting your witness, and when the gov't finds out what's going on they may go after you as well since you knew.
As you do step one: "maybe you didn't realize it but this is sin and you need to stop it and ask God's forgiveness for bearing false witness (Ninth Commandment)," you could tell her they are making you look dishonest by association. If they don't repent, say you've devoted your life to doing righteously and you can't lie for them even in your silence, and you'll give her 48 hours to tell her case worker, or you're going to tell the caseworker yourself. Or let the pastor tell them, but frankly I don't like liars ruining my good name and I'd be in their faces pretty fast but in a matter-of-fact way. Maybe that's just me (it just takes me a long time to figure out someone is hurting me. Not the sharpest tool in the shed here).
I knew of a gal who was raising her fatherless children on AFDC, and didn't tell anyone that her parents had died and left her a large inheritance. A few months later the gov't discovered it, and left her in worse shape than she was in before the inheritance.
_____________________________
Want to know where a certain word or phrase in the Bible is found? www.biblegateway.com Yay!
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RE: Dishonest Friend - 9/24/2008 4:59:05 PM
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deermousie
Posts: 1849
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quote:
ORIGINAL: rural_galShe really feels that God is blessing her life with this new job, and all the things they have received from people. I hate the fact that I am not as merciful towards this couple as the rest of the world seems to be.
Welcome to the forum, Rural Gal! Sorry I didn't lead off my first post to you with this.
This woman's theology is really off, if she thinks sinning gives her God's blessings. If she insists on doing things that are against God's moral universe, either she knows it's wrong and wants it anyway, or else she doesn't know dishonesty is wrong. So, two problems. You can't avoid the consequences of God's moral laws anymore than you can avoid the consequences of gravity when you jump off a building.
You can fix the knowledge part, and challenge her to live God's way. Be prepared to show her in the Bible why this is so. You can show her the Ten Commandments (Exodus 20) - we aren't under this to earn our salvation, but it still represents how God runs the universe, and breaking any of these is half a bridge over the Grand Canyon.
8th Commandment - don't steal (Ex. 20:15)
9th Commandment - don't bear false witness = don't lie (Ex.20:16)(Matt. 19:18, from Jesus' own lips)
Rom. 13:9 sums up the Commandments as loving your neighbor, so these people are violating God's commandment to love others in their actions.
Ephesians 4:28
Let him who stole steal no longer, but rather let him labor, working with his hands what is good, that he may have something to give him who has need.
Either they will repent and turn around, or they will get mad and go hang out with their immoral friends who don't give them grief. If they don't repent after the three Matt. 18 steps, then you treat them like nonChristians (fence them off from the communion table at church for sure) and maybe limit your association with them to a wave and "hi."
1 Corinthians 5:11
But now I have written to you not to keep company with anyone named a brother, who is sexually immoral, or covetous, or an idolater, or a reviler, or a drunkard, or an extortioner—not even to eat with such a person.
What she is doing is either known or soon will be. You don't want to be painted with her brush in the eyes of the community, because they know you call yourself a Christian and your reputation reflects on God. You need to be on the right side of this, no matter what mud may be flung at you. You haven't had to shed blood yet in avoiding sin. Pray like crazy they'll repent, and thank God He's let you find yourself in this awkward situation. He'll bring good from it He promises (Rom. 8:28 and don't forget verse 29). I am praying for you and them today.
_____________________________
Want to know where a certain word or phrase in the Bible is found? www.biblegateway.com Yay!
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RE: Dishonest Friend - 9/24/2008 5:44:50 PM
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allisonbrett
Posts: 196
Joined: 5/29/2008
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Welcome to the forums!!
I agree with the others, you've got to speak up. Confront them on their dishonesty but do it in love. Explain that it really bothers you that they are not being totally honest with you and with the gov't. As taxpayers, their dishonesty affects us all. IPray before you do and ask God to give you the right words and prepare their hearts.
Share your concerns and observations with this couple privately. If they don't heed your advice, talk to the pastor.
Accountability is a tough call. Prayfully consider how you handle it.
Blessings!
_____________________________
Allison's World My Blog
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RE: Dishonest Friend - 9/24/2008 9:32:37 PM
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jaimestarcross
Posts: 785
Joined: 11/28/2005
Status: online
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I'm not in favor of church members confronting someone
about defrauding welfare/government/business.
Report the matter of welfare fraud to DSS since they're the ones being defrauded and they can confront the person or persons.
An anonymous report can be made to the DSS agency
in your area.
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RE: Dishonest Friend - 9/24/2008 9:37:52 PM
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crankius
Posts: 4503
Joined: 4/12/2005
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jaimestarcross,
You bring up a very good point. I thought of that too, but then I thought if I was in that situation, I would still want to confront them in the Biblical way, and let them know that If they didn't come clean, I would then be obligated to turn them in.
_____________________________
Do not be overly righteous, Nor be overly wise: Why should you destroy yourself?
Ecclesiastes 7:16
SYSTEMATIC THEOLOGY
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RE: Dishonest Friend - 9/25/2008 7:43:19 AM
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rural_gal
Posts: 17
Joined: 9/24/2008
Status: offline
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Thank you all for taking the time to read my post, as well as respond so thoughtfully. You all give a lot of good advice.
We were at our Bible study last night, and afterward, I was commenting to my husband that I really don't get this person: she was so sincere, so open, praying so vigorously at the Bible study, and in my head, I just can't put the two halves of her together, they don't fit. One half of her is the way I described above, but I don't understand how that same person, when confronted with the foodstamp issue, can't see how that is wrong. I'm starting to think that maybe she is mentally ill -- like multiple personalities. I don't mean that to sound like a joke, or flippant, I'm serious.
I wanted to ask her about it on the way home, because I'm truly perplexed, but we had another lady in the car with us, so it wasn't the right time.
I am going to try to talk to her about it again, and if she still will not contact her case worker, I will, because, as some mentioned here, it bothered me that I could be just as respnsible, since I knew this was going on, and didn't speak up.
Thank you all again for your help, it is so appreciated to have another person share their opinion on these matters, especially from a biblical perspective.
Have a great day!
R.G.
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RE: Dishonest Friend - 9/25/2008 8:34:34 AM
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Kellgaste
Posts: 407
Joined: 9/18/2008
From: Wyoming
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R.G.,
What I was meaning by my post is this, What is your definition of a Friend? I am going to make an assumption here (I hate doing that) and assume that you and your Hubby are Friends.
With that said, do you/he find it ok to lie to one another and manipulate? As friends you are open and honost and show Respect to one another. It would harm your relationship with each other if you were lieing to each other correct?
It breeds distrust, which in turn erodes the foundation of the friendship which cascades into all areas of your life at that point.
So when I asked you to consider the questions, it was to get you and your hubby thinking on what it means to be called and to call someone a friend.
If they are not living up to a high moral standard (Biblical) then one must evaluate the "friendship" and if it should be continued and called that.
Perception at times is more powerful than any other Force. Association to those who perpetually lie can be seen that you agree with that behavior when in fact you don't.
I hope I communicated my point a little better this time and apologise for not the first time. If I still have failed please forgive me.
God Bless!!
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RE: Dishonest Friend - 9/25/2008 8:42:00 AM
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rural_gal
Posts: 17
Joined: 9/24/2008
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Thanks for helping me to understand that a little better. Boy, I was wayyyyyyyyy off in what I thought you were saying. It wasn't you, though, or your explanation, it was me. Towards the end of the day, my brain starts to deteriorate, I think. :) Some days are better than others!
I don't know what it is that makes me keep trying to build a friendship with this person. I get myself all wound up over the way this couple is acting, then chastise myself for judging their behavior, which by that time have already found myself doing.
I don't think of it as a healthy friendship at all. If anything, I feel that it drains both my husband and me at times. We have tried to walk away. We've gone for periods of time with no communication with them, but then we open up a dialogue again, hoping, I think, that things have changed. Again, let me say that we are not perfect, so I hope I'm not giving that impression.
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RE: Dishonest Friend --UPDATE - 9/25/2008 10:17:34 AM
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rural_gal
Posts: 17
Joined: 9/24/2008
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Just wanted to let you all know that I called Human Services this morning to enquire about how much money a couple could make before being ineligible for food stamps. Still waiting for a call back from them.
However, my friend and I also had a discussion this morning, and I confronted her about the lying and foodstamp issue. I think it went well, and I think I was able to get across to her that I really do care about her, but sometimes it's hard for me to be her friend when she lies and is engaging in dishonest behavior, because then it seems that I am condoning that behavior. I told her I didn't understand how she could act one way during Bible study, but act a totally different way regarding this foodstamp issue. She said no one had ever confronted her like this before, and I told her that I was holding her accountable, because I wanted her to be all that God wanted her to be.
Anyway, she just called me and told me that she called her caseworker and told her that she is working now. Thank God!
take care,
RG
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RE: Dishonest Friend --UPDATE - 9/25/2008 10:47:40 AM
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deermousie
Posts: 1849
Joined: 9/26/2007
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quote:
ORIGINAL: rural_gal
She said no one had ever confronted her like this before, and I told her that I was holding her accountable, because I wanted her to be all that God wanted her to be.
Anyway, she just called me and told me that she called her caseworker and told her that she is working now. Thank God!
WHOO-WOO!!!!! <backflips> <backflips> <backflips>
It worked!!!! You did the right thing, and then so did she!!!! You have won your sister, as the Bible says in Matt. 18. Isn't that terrific?!?!?!?! You did the godly thing and then so did she! That's a double home run.
God bless you and her. May this be the beginning of her sanctification, where eventually she puts all the lying and stealing behind her and walks hand-in-hand with God. It's the first step, with the path now open in front of her. And God used you for the first step. Be very glad! Praise to our wonderful Heavenly Father who works all things according to His will, and gives mercy to sinners!
<backflips> <backflips> <backflips>
_____________________________
Want to know where a certain word or phrase in the Bible is found? www.biblegateway.com Yay!
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RE: Dishonest Friend --UPDATE - 9/25/2008 12:44:59 PM
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rural_gal
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Joined: 9/24/2008
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You are so funny!! 
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