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Deliverance question? - 8/25/2008 9:34:13 PM
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sledmt
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I was thinking about the deliverance ministry several days ago. I was wondering what place it has in today's church?
Here is one thing I was thinking, when Christ went about casting out demons, what place does that have in our church today?
This leads me to my next thought that I will try to explain through an made up example.
Lets say there is a church of 1000 members. Of that one thousand, 10 were demon possessed prior to becoming members.
Case One:
The 10 were never really saved and are still demon possessed.
Case Two:
The 10 were saved and at salvation the demon left the new believer.
Case Three:
The 10 are saved but are still in need of delieverance like Christ performed.
I'm wondering what people believe and why? What does the Bible require us to do?
Thanks
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RE: Deliverance question? - 8/25/2008 11:27:36 PM
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ta_mosquito
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Moving from The Bible to Christian Doctrine.
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"There's a fine line between being open-minded and empty-headed." ~Michael Coren
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RE: Deliverance question? - 8/26/2008 12:09:07 AM
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LCannon
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Jesus' 'deliverance(s)' was a sign that his claim of the Jew's Messiah had arrived. “[Jesus] proved He had a valid claim [to His Deity] but His own rejected His claim yet as many as receives His message; to them he claimed the right to become redeemed of God and appropriate His Name.“ John 1:11,12
The church's deliverance is in that same Name and Power be it demons, evil or apathy. "Therefore God has highly exalted him and bestowed on him the name which is above every name, 10 that at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, in heaven and on earth and under the earth, 11 and every tongue confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father." Philippians 2:9-11
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RE: Deliverance question? - 8/26/2008 10:54:44 AM
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rcjames
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quote:
ORIGINAL: sledmt.
Case One:
The 10 were never really saved and are still demon possessed.
Case Two:
The 10 were saved and at salvation the demon left the new believer.
Case Three:
The 10 are saved but are still in need of delieverance like Christ performed.
Since I do not believe that a Christian can be "Possessed" by a demon; then working with your list I would have to say Case Two.
Thanks
RC
_____________________________
Just a country Preacher's humble opinion
Read the first chapter of my latest book here;
http://www.deliveranceofsara.com
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RE: Deliverance question? - 8/26/2008 2:19:47 PM
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Him4all
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RC,
quote:
Since I do not believe that a Christian can be "Possessed" by a demon;
Do you have a biblical basis for your belief?
Personally I think the list is lacking. Could'nt there be 10 in that church that 'were members' but weren't born again...or "possessed"?
What's your definition of possessed?
DR
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When you violate LOVE you violate GOD.
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RE: Deliverance question? - 8/26/2008 2:30:14 PM
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LCannon
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James 3:10-"From the same mouth come blessing and cursing(?) My brethren, this ought not to be so. 11 Does a spring pour forth from the same opening fresh water and brackish? 12 Can a fig tree, my brethren, yield olives, or a grapevine figs? No more can salt water yield fresh."(After Pentecost)
“No one can serve two masters; for either he will hate the one and love the other, or he will be devoted to the one and despise the other. You cannot serve(by possession or inclination)God and mammon(the world's economy vs the economy of Eternity)." Matthew 6:24(Before Pentecost)
< Message edited by LCannon -- 8/26/2008 4:09:42 PM >
_____________________________
"I pray that You dispose of my health, my sickness,
my life and my death for Your Glory."(Blaise Pascal)
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RE: Deliverance question? - 8/26/2008 4:07:50 PM
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sledmt
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Thank you for the replies.
The question I'm really interested in is the following: When a person that is possessed prior to salvation is truely saved, what happens to the demon at the point of salvation.
1.Does the demon just leave, like some churchs indirectly teach.
2.The person is saved but still need deliverance from the demon.
I believe that before someone can answer the question of if it is possible for a believer to be demon possessed, we need to know what happens to the demon at the moment of salvation for someone that was demon possessed prior to accepting Jesus as his Savior.
Also, this would be my definition of possession: For example, if a certain person was struggling with some repeating sin for sometime, but was unable to get free of this, what would Christ do if he show up in person to minister to this person. If Christ right away cast out the demon. He is our example. This is how I would define possession. How Christ defined possession.
Thanks
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RE: Deliverance question? - 8/26/2008 5:50:30 PM
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Him4all
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quote:
ORIGINAL: LCannon
James 3:10-"From the same mouth come blessing and cursing(?) My brethren, this ought not to be so. 11 Does a spring pour forth from the same opening fresh water and brackish? 12 Can a fig tree, my brethren, yield olives, or a grapevine figs? No more can salt water yield fresh."(After Pentecost)
“No one can serve two masters;...Matthew 6:24(Before Pentecost)
Your quote of James and Matt. is not quite sufficient enough for me. It just doesn't line up with what James says in the following verses.
JAM 3:8 but no human being can tame the tongue - a restless evil, full of deadly poison. 9 With it we bless the Lord and Father, and with it we curse men, who are made in the likeness of God. 10 From the same mouth come blessing and cursing. My brethren, this ought not to be so.
James does end with "this ought not to be" but he also elaborated above that it certainly seems to be the way we are. I know I personally choose which master I'm serving on a moment to moment basis. But in whichever moment I'm in I'm certainly not serving two masters...but only one.
I don't know if either James or Matt. is dealing with the severity of the OP's question...that being "possession". They are, more likely, dealing with the issue of demonic 'oppression' or 'obsession' IMO. And the Matt verse was set time wise before salvation was even available because Jesus hadn't died yet. That fact alone seems to disqualify it for this particular issue.
sledmt,
quote:
How Christ defined possession .
Herein lies the real question in my opinion. I don't think you'll find a definition from Christ. Personally, I think one needs to be 'led of the Spirit' to determine whether someone needs to be delivered of a demon, or whether they just need a word of knowledge/wisdom to deal with some thing that they are not exercising 'self discipline' in.
For example, scripture says that "if you don't forgive you won't be forgiven" or else you'll be turned over to the tortureres. So if you're suffering from some malady from a demon (because he had a legal right to torment you because of 'unforgiveness')...then maybe I don't need to cast a demon out, I just need to tell you to forgive someone and then the demon doesn't have a legal right to continue.
DR
_____________________________
When you violate LOVE you violate GOD.
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RE: Deliverance question? - 8/27/2008 11:08:32 AM
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DaveW
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Please understand that "possession" is (at least in current english) a bad translation. "Demonized" would be better. Possession indicates ownership and none, not even sinners, are owned by demons.
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RE: Deliverance question? - 8/27/2008 11:50:40 AM
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DaveW
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As to the OPs question and 3 scenerios, one must be operating in the gift of Discerning of spirits to tell for sure.
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RE: Deliverance question? - 8/28/2008 12:04:36 PM
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Him4all
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DaveW,
We are in total agreement with our understanding of the greek word which was unfortunately translated "possessed" in the KJV. And the result of that poor interpretation has lived on despite the fact that the very definition of the word has nothing to do with 'possession' but it has very much to do with 'demonic influence', or, as you said, they are "demonized". And I have dealt with people whom I knew well enough to confidently call them believers, and yet they were 'demonized'. Experience, like I had, is sometimes what it takes to change an individual's theological position...from one camp to the other. Especially when the scripture is not definitive enough to prevent the forming of such camps, to begin with.
Strong's def: daimonizomai: to be exercised by a demon
quote:
Possession indicates ownership and none, not even sinners, are owned by demons.
Again we agree with scripture:
PSA 24:1 The earth is the lord's and the fulness thereof, the world and those who dwell therein;
DR
_____________________________
When you violate LOVE you violate GOD.
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RE: Deliverance question? - 8/28/2008 1:42:24 PM
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Bluethread
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I believe we should do what we would do with anyone else. We continue to discuss the Scriptures, take steps to protect our families and community from the curses that follow from the behaviors of such individuals and pray that Adonai would intervene on their behalf. If Adonai chooses to deliver those persons then B'ruch Ha Shem(blessed is The Name), either way we have not permitted Ha Satan slow down Adonai's work in our lives.
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RE: Deliverance question? - 8/28/2008 4:08:24 PM
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sledmt
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Some wonderful replies.
Has anyone on this forum every operated in a deliverance ministry as Christ did?
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RE: Deliverance question? - 8/28/2008 6:05:24 PM
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Him4all
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sledmt,
quote:
Has anyone on this forum every operated in a deliverance ministry as Christ did?
I was in charge of the forming and heading up a deliverance ministry for our church, which I did, for a couple of years. Was it like Christ did...you ask? I wish it were. But He had 'the Spirit without measure', and I/we didn't. We had some wonderful success stories, but I also saw people end up in the psych ward because they wouldn't listen to us concerning tearing down the house of thoughts where the 'power' demon dwelt. And when they didn't destroy that house the original returned with 7 more (Matt 12:45)....I guess. 
I eventually stepped down for that reason. I/we didn't/ don't know it all, but I certainly learned a lot more as a result of that experience.
DR
_____________________________
When you violate LOVE you violate GOD.
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RE: Deliverance question? - 8/29/2008 9:12:34 AM
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rcjames
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Him4all
But He had 'the Spirit without measure', and I/we didn't.
Care to elaborate on this?
Thanks
RC
_____________________________
Just a country Preacher's humble opinion
Read the first chapter of my latest book here;
http://www.deliveranceofsara.com
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RE: Deliverance question? - 8/29/2008 10:28:21 AM
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Him4all
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RC,
I was wondering what happened to you. 
Let me first define what I think 'Spirit without measure' means, I think it is 'authority without measure'. And I think that authority is proportional to godly character (generally speaking anyway).
Are we even in agreement with that?
DR
_____________________________
When you violate LOVE you violate GOD.
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RE: Deliverance question? - 8/29/2008 11:07:28 AM
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solarflare
Posts: 798
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quote:
was thinking about the deliverance ministry several days ago.
Please don't take this personally, but if there is one phrase I would like to see forever obliterated from Christian 'expressions', it would be those two exact words.
Deliverance Ministry. 
1) I do not believe that anyone has a specialist calling in 'delivering' people from demonic oppression....however I do believe that from time to time knowledge of how to deal with this very real aspect of the spiritual world are brought to the attention of Christians due to the problems occuring in such circumstances. I believe that people have put the emphasis on how to deal with demons and not Christ. Hence, the manufacturing of an entire ministry devoted to the casting out of demons.
2) I don't believe anyone is demon possessed....with the possible exception of the anti-christ (the person, not the spirit)
3) I guess it does not matter how many times on these boards the term demon-possessed is brought up and other people explain that the correct interpretation is to possess a demon and not the other way round, the term demon-possessed is here to stay and with it all the misunderstandings that occur with the use of same
4) Move past this and understand that to be bothered by a demon is not the same thing as to be controlled by one.
The term Deliverance Ministry is not Biblical. I do believe that people are 'delivered' from demons in the name of Jesus Christ, but I sure would not go anywhere near a so-called 'Deliverance Ministry' and all the nonsense and harm these people do in their ignorance of Satan's tactics which include 'speaking' to the demons as if Satan's legions are going to tell the truth anyway.
God is real, the devil is real, demons are real and deliverance is real and there sure is a real bunch of gobble de gook written on the topic. And, an awful lot of wrong ways to deal with the subject matter. Starting, it seems, with the very concept itself, ie: possession by demons vs possession of a demon, which I suppose one would want to be well rid of having discerned such a presence within their proximity.
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RE: Deliverance question? - 8/29/2008 1:06:22 PM
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Him4all
Posts: 460
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Solarflare,
quote:
1) I do not believe that anyone has a specialist calling in 'delivering' people from demonic oppression....
I agree in essence with what you're saying. The 'calling to delivering' is to "all who believe", according to Mark 16:17. But if you look at the word 'ministry' , not as some kind of 'specialist calling' but more of an 'obedient doing', then I think the use of the word 'ministry' is acceptable. Do you see what I'm saying? I don't believe I ever had a special 'calling' from God IMO. But, I did have somewhat of a 'commissioning' from the church leadership to step up and do what nobody else was doing. I was basically making a ministry visible and available, for those who might seek it. Lately I've helped pick vegetables from the church garden for the indigent. We call that a 'food ministry/garden minstry'. Does that help you see where I'm coming from?
quote:
4) Move past this and understand that to be bothered by a demon is not the same thing as to be controlled by one.
I think your quote above is consistant with me saying 'there's different levels of authority' in both the Christian and the demonic realm. Although I do believe that no matter how 'controlled' one is, they still have a 'thread' of free will to either obey or disobey IMO. Even the demoniac, who had thousands of demons, ran first to Jesus without any summon, and before Jesus ever spoke a word.
quote:
I sure would not go anywhere near a so-called 'Deliverance Ministry' and all the nonsense and harm these people do in their ignorance of Satan's tactics which include 'speaking' to the demons as if Satan's legions are going to tell the truth anyway.
The above statement concerns me. Have you ever even been involved in a demonic manifestation/deliverance encounter? Who, in your opinion is walking in this 'qualified level' that you think is the standard for participation? You say speaking to demons is only a 'tactic of Satan'??? So, in your opinion, did Jesus 'blow it' when he 'talked to a demon'?
DR
_____________________________
When you violate LOVE you violate GOD.
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RE: Deliverance question? - 8/29/2008 2:43:15 PM
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solarflare
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quote:
The above statement concerns me. Have you ever even been involved in a demonic manifestation/deliverance encounter? Who, in your opinion is walking in this 'qualified level' that you think is the standard for participation? You say speaking to demons is only a 'tactic of Satan'??? So, in your opinion, did Jesus 'blow it' when he 'talked to a demon'?
I was pretty much with you on what you had to say until I read the above.
1)Demons: all liars all the time.
And I really do not know quite where you are coming from with your different levels of authority with regards to Christians. Only Christ has authority over these things. I have personally witnessed the removal of demonic oppresion by the individual crying out to God in their unpleasant state and seen that the presence completely went and did not return. On the other hand, I have seen people commanding demons 'in Jesus' name over and over and nothing happened. So, you tell me. I tell you what, I am very convinced, that much of it has to do with the state of the heart(s) of the people concerned.
2) I am, fortunately or unfortunately, well qualified to know whereof I speak having been on both ends and way too much of either one. So before you decide that you know more than I do, please consider that neither of us know all that much. That is why I do not recommend seeking out a 'deliverance ministry'.
Further, you or I speaking to a demon is absolutley luridly riduculous if we are going to compare what Jesus had done and can do when involved in such a discourse. I prefer the things to just shut up and leave.
Actually, I prefer to have nothing to do with them, period.
quote:
I/we didn't/ don't know it all,
People seem keen on speaking to these wretched things as they say Jesus did, so, we should also. No doubt they also cry out at your presence as they did with Jesus because they recognize your authority. As Jesus said, do not rejoice that demons obey you, but rather that your names are written in heaven. That, is where I am coming from.
Getting rid of these things should not be a mystery. The mystery is that Christians think they are not bothered by them.
Just one more thing: I was not responding to your post when I wrote what I did, so no need to go over my points unless of course you wish to.
I was responding to the OP's post and the OP's use of the term Deliverance Ministry.
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RE: Deliverance question? - 8/29/2008 2:48:33 PM
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sledmt
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Him4all, Good reply. It is good to see someone that understand the need for the deliverance ministry (or whatever some would call it).
I feel the need that we agree that Christ and the disciples walked in this area of casting out demons, and then believe that there is a need within the church today. That before someone gets saved that deliverance is something that is addressed with time spent in the Word and prayer.
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RE: Deliverance question? - 8/29/2008 2:57:08 PM
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sledmt
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Another thought.
I don't know if this is totally true, but I think alot of people like to really understand something before they move in it. I would agree that the deliverance ministry is one of those things that Christ really didn't give all the details on the scope and implementation. But does that remove the responsiblity that Christ expects? I don't think so.
There is alot things that the church performs that are not fully understood.
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RE: Deliverance question? - 8/29/2008 2:57:52 PM
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solarflare
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quote:
I feel the need that we agree that Christ and the disciples walked in this area of casting out demons, and then believe that there is a need within the church today. That before someone gets saved that deliverance is something that is addressed with time spent in the Word and prayer.
Why do we have to agree on something that the Bible indicates is so? There is no mystery here....again, the mystery is Christians thinking they are not bothered by demons. Unless someone subscribes to preterism, there is no indication that Satan or his kingdom has changed since Biblical times.
One of the problems I have seen, are those who fancy themselves 'deliverance ministers.' Truly yucky.
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RE: Deliverance question? - 8/29/2008 3:02:44 PM
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sledmt
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solarflare,
I wondering, how do you or your church fill this important role?
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RE: Deliverance question? - 8/29/2008 3:30:54 PM
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solarflare
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Kindly put a little more meat on those bones and I'll be glad to answer. If you read and understood my post (s) you would see that I absolutely believe that demons are real and really affect people. I take great exception to those who 'tout' a deliverance ministry as some kind of gifting, when all Christians need to be aware of how to deal with the demonic. Not as a speciality, but as a reality, whether or not we like it.
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RE: Deliverance question? - 8/29/2008 5:07:53 PM
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sledmt
Posts: 108
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I don't see the deliverance ministry as you see it but oh well.
So if your so against the deliverance ministry as performed today, how do you feel it should be performed. Lets call the deliverance ministry casting out demons as Christ did for the sake of the debate.
quote:
Getting rid of these things should not be a mystery.
How do you feel we should get rid of those demons?
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