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Charismatic Chaos First Printing? - 8/19/2008 1:18:00 AM
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rlj
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I was at the local library last week and they had a copy of the book "Charismatic Chaos". So I picked it up and skimmed the first couple of pages. I've been meaning to read it when I found a copy so I'll eventually read it.
What caught my eye though was somewhere maybe in the Forward there was something that said the First Printing was in 1978 and it was since then. What I'm interested in knowing is if anyone has read the first version or better yet can point me in the direction where I could purchase the first version? What was different about the two? I'm going to read the one at the library eventually (probably within the next month) but the 1978 version fascinates me because this was the time when some of the charismatic churches came into existance and when some of the WoF ideas began to get rather popular.
I am charismatic but I'd like to read it anyway I'd just love to read what John had to say when the movement was really begginning to pick up steam.
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-Roger
This is who I'm voting for. He is from the same party I voted for last time. This is consistent with my belief in the failure of the two party system and my disgust with it.
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RE: Charismatic Chaos First Printing? - 8/19/2008 5:42:48 PM
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colliefan
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This thread is probably more appropriate for the Books section. An updated version would be more likely to include things such as the Toronto Blessing, and Brownsville.
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RE: Charismatic Chaos First Printing? - 8/20/2008 2:00:45 PM
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rlj
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quote:
This thread is probably more appropriate for the Books section. An updated version would be more likely to include things such as the Toronto Blessing, and Brownsville.
I honestly wasn't sure where to put it. The version I seen at the library had like a forward that said something to the extent that much has changed since I first wrote this in 1978 or something close to that. I'm interested in reading the one at the library and it's next on my list of books to get. I'll probably tackle Christianity in Crisis to.
The reason a 1978 version would interest me so much is that was a very significant time in the charismatic church. With John witnessing the movement from the outside during the 1970s as it started to get really big I'm interested in what he witnessed and what direction he thought it would go and to see if he was right or not. Out of the 1970s came the Morning Star, People of Destiny, Maranatha, Cavalry Chapel and the Vineyard Churches. Many of the WoF people got their start during this time to. Everything good or bad pre Toronto/Brownsville would have had its seed in 1978.
_____________________________
-Roger
This is who I'm voting for. He is from the same party I voted for last time. This is consistent with my belief in the failure of the two party system and my disgust with it.
http://www.baldwin08.com/#
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RE: Charismatic Chaos First Printing? - 8/20/2008 2:22:26 PM
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JimboFletch
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I can't speak to either version, but I was very interested in the "Charismatic" movement in the early and mid-70s. One thing I've noticed in recent years is the blurring of Charismatic and Pentecostal distinctives.
In the 70s, Charismatics generally distanced themselves from Pentecostals, who were considered weak in theology and tending toward extremes. Charismatics were within all older denominations without any tradition of embracing speaking in tongues or other similar manifestations of the Holy Spirit (Baptist, Methodist, Catholic, Presbyterian, etc.) Pentecostals were recognized as denominations like AoG and Pentecostal Holiness with those - and other manifestations - as a normal part of their relatively brief heritage.
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RE: Charismatic Chaos First Printing? - 8/21/2008 11:02:31 AM
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rlj
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quote:
In the 70s, Charismatics generally distanced themselves from Pentecostals, who were considered weak in theology and tending toward extremes. Charismatics were within all older denominations without any tradition of embracing speaking in tongues or other similar manifestations of the Holy Spirit (Baptist, Methodist, Catholic, Presbyterian, etc.) Pentecostals were recognized as denominations like AoG and Pentecostal Holiness with those - and other manifestations - as a normal part of their relatively brief heritage.
That seems a little unusual hearing about charismatics who didn't embrace the sign gifts. In 1989 we didn't want to be confused with Pentecostals because we weren't holy rollers and we believed that what we were embracing was more true to Acts 2 than what the mainline Pentecostal churches embraced. Speaking in Tongues now was a difference for us to. We embraced and accepted it but it was by no means required for Salvation and wasn't the sole evidence of being baptized in the Spirit. We were in a loose affiliation with some other charismatic and Pentecostal churches one was a Pentecostal Holiness Church. I wasn't taught that they were heretic but a little (ok significantly off... ) by their belief in being saved multiple times.
I'm about to go to the library and see if I can handle John's book.
_____________________________
-Roger
This is who I'm voting for. He is from the same party I voted for last time. This is consistent with my belief in the failure of the two party system and my disgust with it.
http://www.baldwin08.com/#
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RE: Charismatic Chaos First Printing? - 8/25/2008 8:13:56 AM
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DaveW
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I have known many charismatics that have demonstrated gifts of the spirit including prophecy, discernment and healing but have never spoken in tongues.
I think if you look into the more conservative elements of Wesleyanism (Church of the Nazarene, Free Methodist) the idea of loss and subsequent regaining of salvation is standard fare. Pentecostal Holiness Church is not unusual in that at all. FYI, the congregation I grew up in (Full Gospel Assembly) believed all believers were only saved a few seconds at a time.
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RE: Charismatic Chaos First Printing? - 8/26/2008 2:33:49 PM
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rlj
Posts: 2143
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quote:
I think if you look into the more conservative elements of Wesleyanism (Church of the Nazarene, Free Methodist) the idea of loss and subsequent regaining of salvation is standard fare. Pentecostal Holiness Church is not unusual in that at all. FYI, the congregation I grew up in (Full Gospel Assembly) believed all believers were only saved a few seconds at a time.
I remember hearing a testimony from a young man (well young 20 years ago) mentioning he had been "saved many times". I asked about that and it was loosely explained. I didn't realize that there were others besides the PHC who thought like that.
Well I have read the introduction, the first chapter and started on the second chapter of Charismatic Chaos. I am going to rescind my opinion that I want to read the first version. Many of the sources he mentions (and John does an outstanding job so far of mentioning them) are kind of dated. I am sure that there are more modern sources he could use to make some points and he does quote sources through the '80s and up to 1991 so far. I am almost of the opinion that he needs to do yet another update.
While I am only on page 60 and I am charismatic I like how he has written this. I agree with him about 55% or so of the time but he doesn't have that Heresy Hunter attitude that annoys me so much which makes the other 45% easy to read. I will say it makes me think.
_____________________________
-Roger
This is who I'm voting for. He is from the same party I voted for last time. This is consistent with my belief in the failure of the two party system and my disgust with it.
http://www.baldwin08.com/#
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RE: Charismatic Chaos First Printing? - 8/26/2008 8:16:29 PM
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Gloryandgrace
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Hello:
I was in the middle of the late 70s charismatic movement and the later pentacostal rise in popularity. I was part of the wof'ers for a while in the 80's
The charismatics didnt really chime in with the pentacostals because they wanted to be unrestricted from the tie-wearing, bun wearing pentacostals that were common in those days.
The Charismatics also didnt want to be 'pushed' into tongues by the strong tongue emphasis in some churches
( An aside here, I was in so. calif in those days)
The Charismatics didnt want the weight of doctrinal stances that the pentacostals had as well, they wanted to simply be free to worship Jesus and practise whatever gifts they had in an atmosphere of freedom. Charismatics then were about as deep theologically as a penny. The Pentacostals were in my view indoctrinated but understood little 'why' they believed. In those days there was a breaking free it seemed, and it only seemed that way, from doctrinal restraint and took to experimenting with experiences in being filled with the Spirit and with tongues, confessions of faith, faith and power prayers, intercessions, giftings, prophecies etc. All this was to become more in-touch with what God was doing to heal and minister to his people.
The crowds came to be healed and touched and if loaves and fishes were available they were sought after too. In the midst of all this ministry some was good some was horrible; the charismatics and pentacostals looked too similar to the baptists and presbyterians etc. I had heard sermon after sermon deriding the poor baptist for being so lame as to miss out on the filling of the Spirit and the Presbyterians to staunch to darken the door where someone with life and love for Jesus might overwhelm their 'truth' with simplicity.
But after a while...... In the 80's all this began to wear pretty thin. God had finished displaying his hand and now it was time to seek his face. This threw the 80's big time evangelists into a backroom board meeting to find out how to regain momentum in their ministry methods....the answer was decidedly obvious......cater to what the baby boomers need most, money,security, happiness, health....and out came a doctrine of prosperity and health that fit a niche in american life. The Charismatics jettisoned the wof'ers because Walter Martin 86'd their doctrines early on. The Pentacostals welcomed them (wofer's) until the outcry from leadership demanded that they seperate from them. So the Wof'ers stayed on their own and they are interviewed by their own, preach to their own, and associate with their own.
If you want to hear a train wreck, listen to Paul interview Paula White, she strayed out of the wof'er camp to be interviewed by a man whom disagrees with that doctrine and it went bad for Paula. ( just an aside)
So now the Charismatics who grew up in the 70's rejoicing in Jesus have really backed off the gifts thing. You wont find many of them doing much in the gifts or even promoting it. Tongues was the hot gift back then, but now its of little to no passing interest in any calvary Chapel or any other Charismatic Church. Some still do seek the gifts and pray for prophecies and tongues.
The extremes now are the wacko prophets that have arisen to say things that would have embarassed them when they were first in Christ, but now they speak inaccuracies with no shame or regret at all. One wonders about their walk with Christ.
TBN who was a promoter of charismatic manifestation and ministry has degraded into ......well who knows what?
John
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Isa 42:6 I the LORD have called thee in righteousness, and will hold thine hand, and will keep thee, and give thee for a covenant of the people, for a light of the Gentiles.....
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RE: Charismatic Chaos First Printing? - 8/27/2008 9:44:33 AM
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rlj
Posts: 2143
Joined: 4/14/2005
Status: online
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quote:
So now the Charismatics who grew up in the 70's rejoicing in Jesus have really backed off the gifts thing. You wont find many of them doing much in the gifts or even promoting it. Tongues was the hot gift back then, but now its of little to no passing interest in any calvary Chapel or any other Charismatic Church. Some still do seek the gifts and pray for prophecies and tongues.
The extremes now are the wacko prophets that have arisen to say things that would have embarassed them when they were first in Christ, but now they speak inaccuracies with no shame or regret at all. One wonders about their walk with Christ.
Sometimes I think people are getting there fill from some of the wackos rather than diligently seeking out the real thing.
_____________________________
-Roger
This is who I'm voting for. He is from the same party I voted for last time. This is consistent with my belief in the failure of the two party system and my disgust with it.
http://www.baldwin08.com/#
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RE: Charismatic Chaos First Printing? - 8/27/2008 3:42:41 PM
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DayStar43
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Years ago, I taught sewing at an interfaith facility. One of my students was Pentecostal. She thought the charismatic movement was of the devil. I wonder if her suspicions were confirmed over the years. 
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