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ORIGINAL: jeafl

I became a Christian while attending a YMCA day camp when I was 4 years old, but I was not raised in a Christian home. I had little opportunity to ever attend church services while growing up (the only bus ministry that came through my neighborhood had a founding pastor that was a child molester). As an adult I have not been able to find a church that is sound in doctrine and practice and which shows a genuine concern for social welfare work, which I consider necessary for any church to be legitimate.

My uncle died unexpectedly in 2005 I inherited a fair amount of cash. I wanted to put the money towards building a non-profit college prep Christian school. However, I have been unable to find any church in Florida, Alabama, Georgia or the Carolinas that is capable or willing to provide land to build on and the necessary voluntary labor to build a school.

Since 2006 I have been looking for a pastoral position that would enable me to use my inheritance to promote the Gospel. I am King James only (of a sort), so I have been interested mostly in IFB and BBF churches. I’ve always had concerns about the independent polity of these churches and the tendency of their pastors to act like dictators, but I was willing to overlook this for the sake of having a King James only congregation.

But recently I have participated in several internet message boards that are meant for KJVO/Baptists. I have had little but hostility from these boards. I have even been told that I cannot be saved because I graduated from public schools (rather than “Christian” school or homeschool) and I have a bachelor’s degree in biology from an accredited private college.

The hostility of the IFBs has only heightened my concern over the independent nature of their congregations. I’d like to get some input on several matters.

1. When a sole pastor has absolute say over what a congregation does, is the church is in violation of Acts 20:17 and Acts 20:28, which call for a plurality of leaders at the local congregational level?

2. Should congregations always look to their own membership when they need to hire a pastor or other staff members? I gather that most independent churches bring in people from outside of their congregations, but does this practice violate Titus 2:2, which some people claim says that that local church leaders should come from within the local congregation that they are to serve?

3. The NT uses the word pastor only once; in Ephesians 4:11 pastor is listed among the spiritual gifts. Does this mean that what we now know as a pastor in most churches, i.e., someone who is Bible teacher, business manager, fundraiser, chief cook and bottle washer, have any Biblical basis?

4. IFB and other churches with congregational polity reject the idea of submitting to a higher earthly authority- i.e., they don’t recognize any authority on earth that tell them that they are following false doctrine or engaging in un-Biblical behavior. But didn’t New Testament churches submit to the authority of Paul, the Apostles and the elders in Jerusalem to define doctrine and set standards for Christian practice and behavior (Acts 15 regarding circumcision)?
Do Acts 14:23 and Titus 1:5 indicate that local congregations submitted to the authority of Paul, the Apostles and their designees when it came time to designate church leaders at the congregational level?

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ORIGINAL: JimboFletch

I think the NT model is that both the local church AND its leaders (plural) be submissive and accountable to other churches and leaders. There is no lone ranger biblical model for a believer, a local church, or any leader.

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However, I have been unable to find any church in Florida, Alabama, Georgia or the Carolinas that is capable or willing to provide land to build on and the necessary voluntary labor to build a school.

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1. When a sole pastor has absolute say over what a congregation does, is the church is in violation of Acts 20:17 and Acts 20:28, which call for a plurality of leaders at the local congregational level?

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2. Should congregations always look to their own membership when they need to hire a pastor or other staff members? I gather that most independent churches bring in people from outside of their congregations, but does this practice violate Titus 2:2, which some people claim says that that local church leaders should come from within the local congregation that they are to serve?

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3. The NT uses the word pastor only once; in Ephesians 4:11 pastor is listed among the spiritual gifts. Does this mean that what we now know as a pastor in most churches, i.e., someone who is Bible teacher, business manager, fundraiser, chief cook and bottle washer, have any Biblical basis?

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4. IFB and other churches with congregational polity reject the idea of submitting to a higher earthly authority- i.e., they don’t recognize any authority on earth that tell them that they are following false doctrine or engaging in un-Biblical behavior. But didn’t New Testament churches submit to the authority of Paul, the Apostles and the elders in Jerusalem to define doctrine and set standards for Christian practice and behavior (Acts 15 regarding circumcision)? Do Acts 14:23 and Titus 1:5 indicate that local congregations submitted to the authority of Paul, the Apostles and their designees when it came time to designate church leaders at the congregational level?

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ORIGINAL: jeafl

I have found several churches that either have building programs in progress or building plans in the works. I have even offered the money to churches whose buildings were destroyed by fire or other disaster. But when I give them the details of what I want to accomplish by establishing a school they either tell me I don’t have enough money to build anything ($40,000 that I am willing to spend right away plus a $60,000 life insurance policy I can either cash in in 5 years or borrow against now) or they tell me that are not interested or they simply ignore me after I give the details.

I’ve had several Baptist pastors tell me that I would have no say in how the money is spent if I donate it to their church. And the president of one Baptist college said I don’t have enough money to do what I want to do, but then he had the nerve to ask me for a donation anyway.

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ORIGINAL: jayvance

Well, yes and no. It depends on how you define the word "leaders." More on that below. But there is no NT basis for the office of pastor as we understand it, to answer your question.

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That is correct. Furthermore, there's no New Testament basis for a clergy/laity distinction as we understand those terms today. "Offices" such as elder, deacon, pastor, etc. were not paid positions as we have today, nor were they part of any hierarchical power structure familiar to us now.

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People who held leadership positions in the NT church were individuals who had specific giftings AND who had shown themselves to be of godly character. This is why, for instance, Paul did not appoint (a better word would be "recognized") elders (the word simply means advanced in age or understanding) in the church at Ephesus until long after the church had been planted and Paul had LEFT THE CHURCH ON THEIR OWN.

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The logical reason for this delay is because Paul knew it would take time for those of godly character and particular gifting to become known by the congregation. But even after Paul recognized those who were offering leadership in certain areas, he never set up some kind of formal structure whereby the elders exercised authority over the congregation the way the clergy does today.

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When you step back and look at it logically, the idea that one person can fulfill all those demands is ludicrous just from a common-sense standpoint, besides being totally unbiblical.

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VERY interesting questions! Notice the way you posed the question: "Didn't NT churches submit to the authority of Paul, etc." If you look at how Paul interacted with the churches he planted, you see that he didn't spend a lot of time imposing his will on them.

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Instead he spent his time sharing God's heart with them and then it was up to the believers to submit themselves to God's will, not simply do what Paul told them to do because he had "authority" over them. It wasn't about a person exerting authority over other people, it was about corporate submission to God's will. That's one of the most glaring examples of how Christianity has gotten off track, this preoccupation with hierarchy and structure and control and authority. The NT church simply did not operate that way, because Jesus never intended for it to be that way. Christianity was specifically designed to be the "anti-religion" in that there were no priests, no temples, and no sacrifices. But just like Israel demanding a king, we Christians have set up our own priests (the clergy), our own temples (church buildings and organizations), and our own sacrifices (our church services, sermons, music, liturgy, etc.)

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ORIGINAL: JimboFletch
Even if a non-member offered to give my church $3 million, I'd not be in favor of accepting it if the donor wanted to dictate how the money would be spent unless to put it in an existing project without further strings attached.

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ORIGINAL: Qtman

I don't think Jimbo was condeming you for not going to a certain church. He was just stating he would not be in favor of a person outside his congregation having control over the church's decisions regarding finance.

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As to you OP and the amount of money you have assuming you can use one of the alternatives you mentioned, and I know nothing about those, and can build a building for $20.00 per sq ft.

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You have enough to build a 5,000 square ft building. Do you realize how small that is.

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ORIGINAL: Qtman

Another thought on the school idea. I was privilledge to atten a Church once that had on its rolls and in attendance a man who owned a plumbing company, one that owned a roofing company, one that owned a HVAC company and two that owned construction contract companies. Had someone offered to provide materials for abuilding these gentlemen probably could have provided the labor to built it with. However it is unusual to have all those in one church. You are lucky if you have two or three people that can or will drive nails. To find a church with someone that has the expertise to use the type materials you are talking about would be almost impossible. The labor would all have to be paid for and they would have a lot tied up in a building to small for all practical purposes to use as a school.

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I’ve had several Baptist pastors tell me that I would have no say in how the money is spent if I donate it to their church. And the president of one Baptist college said I don’t have enough money to do what I want to do, but then he had the nerve to ask me for a donation anyway.

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ORIGINAL: Qtman

I don't think Jimbo was condeming you for not going to a certain church. He was just stating he would not be in favor of a person outside his congregation having control over the church's decisions regarding finance.

But shouldn't this be up to his congregation to decide? His reply reminds me too much of the “my way or the highway” attitude that I have received from IFB pastors.

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My understanding is that whenever the NT talks about elders in connection with a given local church the term is always plural and no hierarchy of elders is ever mentioned in the NT for any particular congregation, i.e., there should not be senior pastors, associate pastors etcetera.

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I don’t have any qualms about a pastor getting a salary for being a pastor. A man cannot be an effective shepherd of a congregation if he has to worry about making a living otherwise. But, then what some pastors make in salary is absolutely absurd considering how little work some of them are allowed to get away with doing.

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I also think it is a mistake to let being a NT church get in the way of 21st century realities. The church today needs to do more things for far more people than it had to do in the 1st century. Heresies are more numerous and more complicated and thus harder to combat now than they were in the 1st century and there are more people to evangelize, feed, clothe, house and minister to now than ever before.

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BTW: The issue of circumcision was referred to a council that consisted of Paul and Apostles and the elders in Jerusalem. Does this imply that the church as a whole had a hierarchy of some sort, i.e., the elders in Jerusalem had something of a supervisory role over a multitude of local congregations much the way bishops today are put in charge of multiple congregations in denominations that have an episcopalian polity?

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Does this mean that Paul served in the role of elder for Ephesus while he was in Ephesus so it is OK to look outside of a congregation for leadership?

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If the elders of a congregation aren’t meant to exercise any kind of binding authority over a congregation, what purpose do they serve? If a congregation can ignore what its elders say is right, why have elders?

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Explain the issue of circumcision. Paul and the Apostles may not have micro-managed individual congregations, but they didn’t leave it up to these individual congregations to set their own doctrine and code of conduct either.

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If nobody outside of a local congregation can tell that congregation what is right and wrong and how to act, how does the church as a whole deal with heresy or abusive pastors?