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Are Christians chosen? - 10/2/2008 12:10:45 PM
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chungt79
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This all started when I was discussing the issue of infant baptism with my pastor. My idea is that infant Baptism serves as a sign of our dedication to raising the child to be a Christian and at the same time, our firm belief that God will be with him in his walk of life. However, in my interpretation, the ultimate decision to become a Christian lays with the child.
My pastor's idea is that it is in God's power to choose who will be His child and that it was ultimately God's plan to place this child in the hands to Christian parents. Therefore, through our faith, the child is already blessed. The infant baptism serves to let my child be aware that he is a chosen child of God.
I hope I did not distort what my pastor was trying to say because it is an idea that I was not aware of. I became a Christian through Baptist church and I am attending Presbyterian church now. I started reading the book of Romans yesterday with what my pastor said in mind, and surprisingly, there are a lot of quotes that shows exactly that God chooses who to save and who doesn't. i know there are countless arguments for both sides. What I am interested mainly is my pastor's idea that God chooses who to be His children and that it is in his right and power to do so.
Thanks for reading.
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RE: Are Christians chosen? - 10/2/2008 12:16:21 PM
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rcjames
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God did choose; he chose all of humanity; all we have to do is respond;
(Joh 3:16) For God so loved the world that He gave His only-begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him should not perish but have everlasting life.
Please note the "Whoever" here and in innumerous places else where in the New Testamet.
Thanks
RC
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Just a country Preacher's humble opinion
Read the first chapter of my latest book here;
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RE: Are Christians chosen? - 10/2/2008 12:19:07 PM
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raivyne
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This will be a highly contested topic! I look forward to watching it unfold and I may even chime in. :)
I think there is truth in what you say and in what your pastor says.
Blessings.
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RE: Are Christians chosen? - 10/2/2008 12:19:25 PM
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chungt79
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Romans 1:24 - "Therefore God gave them over in the sinful desires of their hearts to sexual impurity for the degrading of their bodies with one another"
Romans 1:7 - And you also are among those who are called to belong to Jesus Christ.
There are also instances where people are selected by God for reasons we cannot understand. We certainly cannot expect to understand everything but there are quotes just in the first chapter of Romans that suggests such idea.
Also, how about those who never heard the gospel? Isn't it within God's power and right to do whatever he pleases with them?
I am playing the "devil's advocate" here trying to clarify this as much as I can.
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RE: Are Christians chosen? - 10/2/2008 12:26:42 PM
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Liveloved
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You're not the first one to wrestle with this question. 
But I agree with RC. We are ALL chosen. God's desire is FOR ALL MEN to be saved. . . and that includes women. God our Savior desires all men to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth (ITim 2:4).
Does that answer your question???
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RE: Are Christians chosen? - 10/2/2008 12:30:31 PM
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JimboFletch
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A Presbyterian is likely to tell you that the "whosoever believes" are all the ones and only the ones God has chosen. All others will not believe because they are not the elect chosen from before the world's creation.
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RE: Are Christians chosen? - 10/2/2008 12:30:55 PM
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chungt79
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Liveloved
You're not the first one to wrestle with this question.
But I agree with RC. We are ALL chosen. God's desire is FOR ALL MEN to be saved. . . and that includes women. God our Savior desires all men to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth (ITim 2:4).
Does that answer your question???
No, because I agree with you. =)
I need to hear the other side of the argument for me to understand the whole thing. There are certainly a very good argument on the other side as well.
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RE: Are Christians chosen? - 10/2/2008 12:34:32 PM
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Liveloved
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quote:
No, because I agree with you. =)
I need to hear the other side of the argument for me to understand the whole thing. There are certainly a very good argument on the other side as well.
I think where people get 'tripped up' is that God knows who will respond and who will not. . . so before we choose, He knows. That kind of knowledge makes people crazy IYW.
But for me, a God Who is THAT BIG is all the more wonderful. My puny little mind is no match for His. So I just say thank You, bless You, and glory be to my Father! Amen.
Edited to add:
Now that I've read your Romans post I just want to say Romans 1 makes it clear that ALL men have sufficient evidence of God to come to salvation. No one is left out.
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RE: Are Christians chosen? - 10/2/2008 12:34:54 PM
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chungt79
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quote:
ORIGINAL: JimboFletch
A Presbyterian is likely to tell you that the "whosoever believes" are all the ones and only the ones God has chosen. All others will not believe because they are not the elect chosen from before the world's creation.
That is pretty what he said. But does it hold up based on the words of the Bible? -.-a
quote:
I think where people get 'tripped up' is that God knows who will respond and who will not. . . so before we choose, He knows. That kind of knowledge makes people crazy IYW.
But for me, a God Who is THAT BIG is all the more wonderful. My puny little mind is no match for His. So I just say thank You, bless You, and glory be to my Father! Amen.
So he knows but the decision is still ours. I agree we should just say thank you. This should not affect our belief since we already made our choice, but I cant get this out of my mind because this changes so much in what I believed.
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RE: Are Christians chosen? - 10/2/2008 12:39:13 PM
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JimboFletch
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quote:
ORIGINAL: chungt79
quote:
ORIGINAL: JimboFletch
A Presbyterian is likely to tell you that the "whosoever believes" are all the ones and only the ones God has chosen. All others will not believe because they are not the elect chosen from before the world's creation.
That is pretty what he said. But does it hold up based on the words of the Bible? -.-a
If one holds to 5-Point Calvinism, like even Charles H. Spurgeon and John Newton (author of Amazing Grace), the whole of the Bible, not just that verse, upholds the doctrine of election that way.
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RE: Are Christians chosen? - 10/2/2008 12:41:47 PM
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Little_1
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This is something I am not 100% sure about in all honesty. On the one hand you have texts which say that "God is not willing that any should perish and that all should come to repentance" and then you have texts such as Matthew 22:13, 14, "Many are called but few are chosen".
I think that God knows the beginning from the end and as such knows 'who' all will accept his gift of eternal life and therefore could this be why God calls His own 'chosen' and 'elect'.
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RE: Are Christians chosen? - 10/2/2008 1:00:17 PM
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URForgiven
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It is not that God chooses some to be Christians and others not....it is that all who choose to become Christians are, because of Christ, God's chosen ones.
Peace
_____________________________
"Are you so foolish? After beginning with the Spirit,
are you now trying to attain your goal by human effort?" Galatians 3:3
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RE: Are Christians chosen? - 10/2/2008 1:03:14 PM
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DuckTalk
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quote:
ORIGINAL: rcjames
God did choose; he chose all of humanity; all we have to do is respond;
(Joh 3:16) For God so loved the world that He gave His only-begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him should not perish but have everlasting life.
Please note the "Whoever" here and in innumerous places else where in the New Testamet.
Thanks
RC
SirJames, will you please bring your salt of the earth self to Tennessee and be my preacher, please?
_____________________________
Sufferin' sassafrass. The nerve of some people, profitting from other people's miseries.
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RE: Are Christians chosen? - 10/2/2008 1:07:06 PM
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DuckTalk
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I know of John's baptism, as well as Jesus', but is there actually any biblical reference to "infant" baptism?
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Sufferin' sassafrass. The nerve of some people, profitting from other people's miseries.
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RE: Are Christians chosen? - 10/2/2008 1:15:13 PM
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mvic
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God's invitation is to everyone - without exception.
When He invites us to love Him, He wants us to choose freely - without any pressure on His part to influence our decision.
We choose to love Him and come to God through Jesus Christ: "I am the Way ... no one comes to God but through me".
Some choose not to accept the invitation. They decide to walk away from God.
God in His infinite wisdom knows our decision before we even make it - but He does not influence it in any way.
It's like you being in a helicopter watching two cars coming at an intersection. You know they will hit each other. Yet you do not influence or change the outcome.
The other point you mention refers to those people who never heard of God - e.g. in a jungle somewhere cut off from civilisation. God, in His wisdom knows about them too. He knows they were not given the opportunity to learn about Jesus and He will deal with them according to His wisdom and compassion.
So baptism (your Opening point) is a sign from the parents as to what they wish for their child. At the end of the day it is only water on a baby's head. Water alone does not make you a Christian, whether you're a baby or a grown up. It just makes you wet.
To become a Christian you have to make your own choice and decision to follow Christ. This you make when you're old enough to understand the enormity and the responsibility of that decision.
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RE: Are Christians chosen? - 10/2/2008 1:49:43 PM
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Liveloved
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quote:
It is not that God chooses some to be Christians and others not....it is that all who choose to become Christians are, because of Christ, God's chosen ones.
Well said again, URF.
Chosen is a transaction just like forgiveness. You have to accept the invitation to be 'in' and you have to repent to receive forgiveness. Can't have one without the other. (what song is that? oh yeah, love and marriage. . .)
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RE: Are Christians chosen? - 10/2/2008 1:51:07 PM
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Liveloved
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quote:
I know of John's baptism, as well as Jesus', but is there actually any biblical reference to "infant" baptism?
norak,
Say you're not serious. LL
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RE: Are Christians chosen? - 10/2/2008 1:52:44 PM
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pg4Him
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I do not believe God puts anyone on this Earth without even the chance to find salvation. He is no respector of persons. God sees all and knows who will come to Him but IMO that doesn't mean it's forced. I think He whispers the call to everyone at some point, but He puts a stronger calling on those with the potential to do great things.
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To hear the Word and not *do* the Word is to still not know the Word.
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RE: Are Christians chosen? - 10/2/2008 2:05:54 PM
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JimboFletch
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quote:
ORIGINAL: URForgiven
It is not that God chooses some to be Christians and others not....it is that all who choose to become Christians are, because of Christ, God's chosen ones.
Peace
Do you mean that we are chosen ("God's chosen ones") because we first choose Him?
I always thought God is the Great Initiator, not us. For example:
But God commendeth his love toward us, in that, while we were yet sinners, Christ died for us.
-Romans 5:8
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RE: Are Christians chosen? - 10/2/2008 2:34:19 PM
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URForgiven
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quote:
ORIGINAL: JimboFletch
quote:
ORIGINAL: URForgiven
It is not that God chooses some to be Christians and others not....it is that all who choose to become Christians are, because of Christ, God's chosen ones.
Peace
Do you mean that we are chosen ("God's chosen ones") because we first choose Him?
All who choose to receive His free gift, are His chosen ones. God is always the Initiator, we are the responders.
Peace
_____________________________
"Are you so foolish? After beginning with the Spirit,
are you now trying to attain your goal by human effort?" Galatians 3:3
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RE: Are Christians chosen? - 10/2/2008 2:42:34 PM
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JimboFletch
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quote:
ORIGINAL: URForgiven
quote:
ORIGINAL: JimboFletch
quote:
ORIGINAL: URForgiven
It is not that God chooses some to be Christians and others not....it is that all who choose to become Christians are, because of Christ, God's chosen ones.
Peace
Do you mean that we are chosen ("God's chosen ones") because we first choose Him?
All who choose to receive His free gift, are His chosen ones. God is always the Initiator, we are the responders.
Peace
I'm confused, you're still saying that God follows our lead - we chose Him and, then, He chooses us but because we chose Him.
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RE: Are Christians chosen? - 10/2/2008 2:48:52 PM
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URForgiven
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quote:
ORIGINAL: JimboFletch
quote:
ORIGINAL: URForgiven
quote:
ORIGINAL: JimboFletch
quote:
ORIGINAL: URForgiven
It is not that God chooses some to be Christians and others not....it is that all who choose to become Christians are, because of Christ, God's chosen ones.
Peace
Do you mean that we are chosen ("God's chosen ones") because we first choose Him?
All who choose to receive His free gift, are His chosen ones. God is always the Initiator, we are the responders.
Peace
I'm confused, you're still saying that God follows our lead - we chose Him and, then, He chooses us but because we chose Him.
No Jimbo, that is what you are saying I am saying. lol. We both know where we stand on this already. Why don't you give the OP the other side, your side. I have been impressed with your restraint up to this point, and would hate to see this end up you know where. 
Peace
_____________________________
"Are you so foolish? After beginning with the Spirit,
are you now trying to attain your goal by human effort?" Galatians 3:3
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RE: Are Christians chosen? - 10/2/2008 2:50:46 PM
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doinkdom
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It's called Covenant Theology and there are a ton of resources out there.
Try the CE&P website for a few as well.
eta: to change the website info as I got it wrong...duh
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RE: Are Christians chosen? - 10/2/2008 6:06:55 PM
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ta_mosquito
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In an attempt to consolidate for the purpose of effective moderation we have created a One Stop thread for debate of Calvinism/Arminianism topics. Therefore, this thread on the topic is being closed.
Please continue your discussion there.
Here is the link:
CLICK HERE
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