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RE: Alaska: The Anomoly - 9/1/2008 8:09:42 AM
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saved9201
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No offense, but.....
You really expect people to read all that?
- Julius
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RE: Alaska: The Anomoly - 9/1/2008 8:36:11 AM
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csl7037
Posts: 1584
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quote:
ORIGINAL: saved9201
No offense, but.....
You really expect people to read all that?
- Julius
Only if they're actually interested in learning something and carrying on an intelligent conversation.
Thanks 78Frogger. Some of that was perplexing to me. "Big oil"? Her husband is a Union member which has the Dem's (who lead the Unions around by their noses) freaking out! That's what that's about!
But the fiscal conservative in me has really been questioning this tax on the oil companies. I understand it's a different dynamic up there but it's hard to wrap your brain around. I've appreciated your posts - this one and before when you clarified some of the situation with her brother-in-law. You've seen her in action while the rest of us are kinda getting a crash course.
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RE: Alaska: The Anomoly - 9/1/2008 10:11:22 AM
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SteveSund
Posts: 460
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From: Michigan
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quote:
ORIGINAL: 78frogger
In Alaska all mineral deposits are owned by Alaska and therefore Alaskans. You might think this is Socialism (I certainly did for a long time) but if it is then every state is Socialist.
The key difference being that in most states, mineral rights can be owned by private entities. In that regard, Alaska is somewhat unique.
BTW, thanks for the information on Alaska. I honestly don't know enough about that state and now that we have Palin, I would like to know more about how she has run things and what people like and dislike about her.
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RE: Alaska: The Anomoly - 9/1/2008 10:14:43 AM
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huangshan
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quote:
ORIGINAL: 78frogger
In Alaska all mineral deposits are owned by Alaska and therefore Alaskans. You might think this is Socialism (I certainly did for a long time) but if it is then every state is Socialist.
Yes, every state is socialist, and some more so than others. Alaska is pretty darn socialist. Socialism isn't a yes/no thing most of the time, much, I'm sure, to the chagrin of many people who don't know any better. It's a matter of degrees.
Alaska is pretty darn socialist.
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RE: Alaska: The Anomoly - 9/1/2008 10:15:52 AM
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URForgiven
Posts: 1057
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quote:
ORIGINAL: saved9201
No offense, but.....
You really expect people to read all that?
- Julius
I did read it all, and found it very informative and helpful. Thanks 78frogger!
Peace
_____________________________
"Are you so foolish? After beginning with the Spirit,
are you now trying to attain your goal by human effort?" Galatians 3:3
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RE: Alaska: The Anomoly - 9/1/2008 1:27:42 PM
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Psalm22
Posts: 277
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From: Alaska! Breaking is in progress, soon be spring!
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Good job, frogger!
The Permanent Fund Dividend has never been $5k. It's topped $2k a couple of times (2008 is one of those). It's also been well below $1k a few times. For more info about the PFD, check out the official site.
A good place to get overviews of Alaskan communities is the Alaska Community Database.
It's worth spending some time exploring www.alaska.gov.
As frogger said, it's expensive to live up here. While it's not too bad in Anchorage (where frogger and I live), it's very expensive in the outlying communities, particularly those not on the road system. Think what you're paying for gas is high? Try $7-$8 a gallon. By the way, that's not an uncommon price for a gallon of milk in those same communities. So as she says, don't think of the "handouts" as the sole reason for moving up here. After all, the feds take their cut of the money; it is taxable income.
Wally Hickel is the main proponent of the "Owner-State" concept. For more on the idea, check out Crisis in the Commons: The Alaskan Solution.
_____________________________
And the Spirit and the bride say, "Come!" And let him who hears say, "Come!" And let him who thirsts come. Whoever desires, let him take the water of life freely. Rev. 22:17
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RE: Alaska: The Anomoly - 9/1/2008 1:48:56 PM
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saved9201
Posts: 717
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quote:
ORIGINAL: URForgiven
quote:
ORIGINAL: saved9201
No offense, but.....
You really expect people to read all that?
- Julius
I did read it all, and found it very informative and helpful. Thanks 78frogger!
Peace
Some of y'all are just nerds. 
- Julius
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RE: Alaska: The Anomoly - 9/1/2008 5:17:54 PM
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78frogger
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Yes, we are pretty socialist I just think it's weird that we are probably the most conservative state in the nation except for maybe New Hampshire. The only thing that would make you think we are socialist compared to the other states is the mineral ownership which isn't a big step from water, wildlife, and other things that are typically considered communal. The thing that probably makes Alaska so wealthy is that we are extremely conservative. Privatization is huge up here. The state allows oil companies to do what they do best, make money by drilling oil rather then trying to use central planning where the inefficient, unknowing, elected officials try to run everything. The individual oil companies make their choices based on the market. For years they have been injecting natural gas back into the ground. It was more profitable under the current market conditions but now with prices of natural gas rising they are interested in a pipeline.
So one of the major problems of socialization isn't an issue up here that of the extremely bad idea of central planning. Of course, there are still regulations in some areas like health care. I believe it is these state regulations that give health insurance companies virtual monopolies. There is only one major health insurance company that provides service in Alaska and consequential it the coverage is terrible and the price of coverage is extremely high. Overall we allow the private sector to handle more things then in the States. Which might be why we end up with so much money we don't know what to do with except start handing it out. 
The one thing that is a curse is the handouts which didn't start until later as that takes away incentive for people to do better for themselves rather then wanting the state to do "better" for them. Whatever that means. I would really like to see the dividends go away. Of course, the Native Corporations do their own thing. Some focus on economy and jobs and some focus on dividends but that's their issue to decide.
P.S. Sorry it's so long. I did try to make it short.
< Message edited by 78frogger -- 9/1/2008 5:35:27 PM >
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RE: Alaska: The Anomoly - 9/1/2008 11:25:01 PM
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Psalm22
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Keep in mind Alaska is weird in another way, too. Unless all the other states which are completely divided into countries/boroughs/parishes/whatever, Alaska is:
1. Divided into the organized boroughs and the Unorganized Borough (UB), which is all area of the state not in an organized boroughs. The state runs the UB while the organized ones have different levels of self-government.
2. Cities can be incorporated at different levels or unincorporated. Both types of boroughs include both types of cities.
3. Some cities and boroughs have unified. For example, the Municipality of Anchorage is composed of the old City of Anchorage and Greater Anchorage Area Borough plus some miscellaneous communities like Girdwood, Eagle River and Chugiak. THe City and Borough of Juneau is another example.
4. Due to this mishmash, many reports use census districts as the basic way to divide up the state for statistical purposes.
5. I almost forgot: add Native village governments into the mix. In some communities, there is the incorporated city and an almost parallel structure called the Native Village of (whatever).
Makes a variety of issues, like taxation and judicial systems, quite interesting.
_____________________________
And the Spirit and the bride say, "Come!" And let him who hears say, "Come!" And let him who thirsts come. Whoever desires, let him take the water of life freely. Rev. 22:17
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RE: Alaska: The Anomoly - 9/2/2008 12:15:27 AM
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huangshan
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quote:
ORIGINAL: 78frogger
Yes, we are pretty socialist I just think it's weird that we are probably the most conservative state in the nation except for maybe New Hampshire. The only thing that would make you think we are socialist compared to the other states is the mineral ownership which isn't a big step from water, wildlife, and other things that are typically considered communal. The thing that probably makes Alaska so wealthy is that we are extremely conservative. Privatization is huge up here. The state allows oil companies to do what they do best, make money by drilling oil rather then trying to use central planning where the inefficient, unknowing, elected officials try to run everything. The individual oil companies make their choices based on the market. For years they have been injecting natural gas back into the ground. It was more profitable under the current market conditions but now with prices of natural gas rising they are interested in a pipeline.
Well to be fair, "conservatism"...
Let me riff on conservatism for a second: conservatism pretty mush just means hewing to tradition. It's not necessarily opposed to liberalism, socialism, or whatever. It's hard to define, as tradition varies from region to region, country to country. Conservatism can indicate a need to roll back policy to an earlier time, or it can mean to simply advance slowly and cautiously. "Conservative" is used way too often in daily discourse, and it's often used as though it represents a coherent ideology. It doesn't.
I'm pretty sure that one of the big things that makes Alaska so wealthy is the oil. There are no other states where the oil tax revenues are high enough to basically cut the entire population welfare checks. I also understand that there are things like state-owned dairy farms and other such oddities. It's also still the biggest beneficiary of earmarks in the Union. I could be wrong, but I think the combination of oil and massive federal support are two big reasons why Alaska is so wealthy.
Finally, socialism doesn't imply centralized planning. It can simply indicate regulation of industry, it could indicate local ownership, it can indicate a lot of things. Central planning is a characteristic of the old Soviet economy, yes, but that's a Soviet (or totalitarian) thing, not a socialism thing.
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RE: Alaska: The Anomoly - 9/2/2008 1:44:21 AM
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78frogger
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Your are correct in your definition of Conservatism. You are also correct in that oil makes Alaska wealthy but not in why it cuts welfare checks. It is because the people were not spending all the money they got on social welfare programs and such that they ended up with a surplus. Trust me when many schools were nothing but Quonset huts and roads were mostly dirt they definitely could have spent that money.
They put this money in a Fund that is invested OUTSIDE of Alaska. It is that Fund that supplies the checks not oil. That fund has nothing to do with oil anymore. In fact in bad oil years when the state was running a deficit Alaskan residents still got the checks. Every year there is talk of getting rid of it. Once you start handing people checks though it all goes downhill and is harder to get rid of. Alaskans are very lower case "c" conservative with state money, as in they don't like to spend it and they don't trust government to spend it. They are definitely people here that like to spend Federal money. Doesn't people in every state? There is no denying that. It's always easier to spend other people's money. Which is why less government is better.
The state owned dairy is joke and it does not make any money. One of those political fiasco's that most people despise. Like many freaky pork barrel projects in other states.
< Message edited by 78frogger -- 9/2/2008 2:09:33 AM >
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RE: Alaska: The Anomoly - 9/2/2008 1:59:58 AM
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Jhud
Posts: 7873
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From: Lake Wobegon
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quote:
Let me riff on conservatism for a second: conservatism pretty mush just means hewing to tradition. It's not necessarily opposed to liberalism, socialism, or whatever. It's hard to define, as tradition varies from region to region, country to country. Conservatism can indicate a need to roll back policy to an earlier time, or it can mean to simply advance slowly and cautiously. "Conservative" is used way too often in daily discourse, and it's often used as though it represents a coherent ideology. It doesn't.
Actually, American conservatism is pretty well defined. Burke, Kirk, and Buckley made some things fairly clear that it was that a transcendent order, the connection of property and liberty, a respect for tradition and political prudence, the limitation of politcal power, and an opposition to those political entities that would repress human liberty.
quote:
Finally, socialism doesn't imply centralized planning. It can simply indicate regulation of industry, it could indicate local ownership, it can indicate a lot of things. Central planning is a characteristic of the old Soviet economy, yes, but that's a Soviet (or totalitarian) thing, not a socialism thing.
Socialism attempts to redistribute wealth in order to maintain economic parity - and in the end invariably impoverishes everyone equally.
_____________________________
Jack
It has been said that politics is the second oldest profession. I have learned that it bears a striking resemblance to the first..
- Ronald Reagan
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RE: Alaska: The Anomoly - 9/2/2008 2:16:25 AM
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huangshan
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Jhud
quote:
Let me riff on conservatism for a second: conservatism pretty mush just means hewing to tradition. It's not necessarily opposed to liberalism, socialism, or whatever. It's hard to define, as tradition varies from region to region, country to country. Conservatism can indicate a need to roll back policy to an earlier time, or it can mean to simply advance slowly and cautiously. "Conservative" is used way too often in daily discourse, and it's often used as though it represents a coherent ideology. It doesn't.
Actually, American conservatism is pretty well defined. Burke, Kirk, and Buckley made some things fairly clear that it was that a transcendent order, the connection of property and liberty, a respect for tradition and political prudence, the limitation of politcal power, and an opposition to those political entities that would repress human liberty.
That's probably true in circles that follow (or contribute to) The National Review or The American Conservative, but in common locution I don't think it shares that coherency.
quote:
quote:
Finally, socialism doesn't imply centralized planning. It can simply indicate regulation of industry, it could indicate local ownership, it can indicate a lot of things. Central planning is a characteristic of the old Soviet economy, yes, but that's a Soviet (or totalitarian) thing, not a socialism thing.
Socialism attempts to redistribute wealth in order to maintain economic parity - and in the end invariably impoverishes everyone equally.
I think you are talking about some forms of extreme socialism maybe...? Socialism isn't a coherent doctrine either, though there are some ideologies that push socialism to varying degrees.
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RE: Alaska: The Anomoly - 9/2/2008 2:37:44 AM
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Jhud
Posts: 7873
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quote:
That's probably true in circles that follow (or contribute to) The National Review or The American Conservative, but in common locution I don't think it shares that coherency.
Why would we try to define political philosophies by what is understood in 'common locution'?
quote:
I think you are talking about some forms of extreme socialism maybe...? Socialism isn't a coherent doctrine either, though there are some ideologies that push socialism to varying degrees.
I am not sure how you can claim both that these political postions are 'incoherent' and yet claim that you can explain what they are. Both can't be true.
_____________________________
Jack
It has been said that politics is the second oldest profession. I have learned that it bears a striking resemblance to the first..
- Ronald Reagan
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RE: Alaska: The Anomoly - 9/2/2008 3:08:46 AM
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huangshan
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Jhud
quote:
That's probably true in circles that follow (or contribute to) The National Review or The American Conservative, but in common locution I don't think it shares that coherency.
Why would we try to define political philosophies by what is understood in 'common locution'?
The thread starter was declaring Alaska to be extremely "conservative". I don't think that's the case. I think Alaska is extremely Republican, but that's not at all the same thing, and I was working towards correcting that notion.
quote:
quote:
I think you are talking about some forms of extreme socialism maybe...? Socialism isn't a coherent doctrine either, though there are some ideologies that push socialism to varying degrees.
I am not sure how you can claim both that these political postions are 'incoherent' and yet claim that you can explain what they are. Both can't be true.
Socialism can infer regulation or ownership by the state. these aren't the same thing, and they can be applied to various parts of society. Socialism is word that can mean different strategies applied to different things. It's not a term that lends itself to saying what it "attempts" to do, and as such I don't see how it is possible to say what the outcome of socialist policy in the abstract will necessarily lead to. I would argue, for example, that centrally planned economies are doomed to failure, but a centrally planned economy is not a pillar of socialism, it's just bad policy advocated by some socialists.
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RE: Alaska: The Anomoly - 9/2/2008 3:14:39 AM
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Jhud
Posts: 7873
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From: Lake Wobegon
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quote:
The thread starter was declaring Alaska to be extremely "conservative". I don't think that's the case. I think Alaska is extremely Republican, but that's not at all the same thing, and I was working towards correcting that notion.
I thiink by a Kirkian definition Alaska is pretty conservative.
Socialism can infer regulation or ownership by the state. these aren't the same thing, and they can be applied to various parts of society. Socialism is word that can mean different strategies applied to different things. It's not a term that lends itself to saying what it "attempts" to do, and as such I don't see how it is possible to say what the outcome of socialist policy in the abstract will necessarily lead to. I would argue, for example, that centrally planned economies are doomed to failure, but a centrally planned economy is not a pillar of socialism, it's just bad policy advocated by some socialists.
Socialism is really defined by its goals - thus some regulation exists for the sake of safety, which isn't necessarily a socialist goal, and some exists for the purpose of imposing economic equality, which is its primary goal. Though there is a range of socialist activities, but generally one over-arching goal.
_____________________________
Jack
It has been said that politics is the second oldest profession. I have learned that it bears a striking resemblance to the first..
- Ronald Reagan
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RE: Alaska: The Anomoly - 9/2/2008 1:23:10 PM
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huangshan
Posts: 727
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Jhud
quote:
The thread starter was declaring Alaska to be extremely "conservative". I don't think that's the case. I think Alaska is extremely Republican, but that's not at all the same thing, and I was working towards correcting that notion.
I think by a Kirkian definition Alaska is pretty conservative.
Could you elaborate? I'm only passingly familiar with Kirk. The two things that stick out in my mi... three things that stick out in my mind are the weird socialism brought about be the oil tax revenues, the massive amounts of pork that Alaska's senators and representative bring its way, and Alaska's relative non-religiosity compared to almost every other state in the union (it's on par with Washington and Oregon, I think).
quote:
Socialism is really defined by its goals - thus some regulation exists for the sake of safety, which isn't necessarily a socialist goal, and some exists for the purpose of imposing economic equality, which is its primary goal. Though there is a range of socialist activities, but generally one over-arching goal.
Really? Really defined by its goals according to whom or what? Socialism is a governing strategy. It need not be connected to any historical ideology, it need only be seen as useful and desirable.
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RE: Alaska: The Anomoly - 9/2/2008 1:58:42 PM
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huangshan
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Also, I hear that in Alaska the bobcats are official citizens.
I imagine it makes school board meetings very tense.
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RE: Alaska: The Anomoly - 9/2/2008 10:54:44 PM
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Psalm22
Posts: 277
Joined: 4/18/2005
From: Alaska! Breaking is in progress, soon be spring!
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quote:
ORIGINAL: huangshan
Also, I hear that in Alaska the bobcats are official citizens.
I imagine it makes school board meetings very tense.
<scratches head, not understanding the reference>
_____________________________
And the Spirit and the bride say, "Come!" And let him who hears say, "Come!" And let him who thirsts come. Whoever desires, let him take the water of life freely. Rev. 22:17
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RE: Alaska: The Anomoly - 9/3/2008 1:46:18 AM
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78frogger
Posts: 58
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Psalm22
quote:
ORIGINAL: huangshan
Also, I hear that in Alaska the bobcats are official citizens.
I imagine it makes school board meetings very tense.
<scratches head, not understanding the reference>
Makes as much sense as the other things he or she posted.
Well, now we know why Carol Comeau has such a hard time with the Union it's those pesky Bobcats. 
< Message edited by 78frogger -- 9/3/2008 3:50:50 AM >
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RE: Alaska: The Anomoly - 9/3/2008 6:38:05 AM
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dinomax55
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From: O-H-I-O
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Can someone explain this whole Alaska Independence Party angle? I'm interested in what this is all about- If secession is illegal, how could they pull this off? Seems a bit like wishful thinking.
_____________________________
We can never achieve perfection.. but if we chase perfection we will catch excellence.
-Vince Lombardi
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RE: Alaska: The Anomoly - 9/3/2008 5:24:57 PM
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Psalm22
Posts: 277
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From: Alaska! Breaking is in progress, soon be spring!
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Here's the official site of the Alaska Independence Party.
The party had its heydey many years ago, back before Joe Vogler died. It was a reaction to the highhandedness of Washington, D.C., the environmental lobby and a host of others. As perceived by many Alaskans, Outsiders, particu;arly the East Coast liberal groups, use Alaska as (1) a way to raise funds, (2) salve their consciences for messing up their own states by locking up vast swaths of ours, and (3) and just generally not allowing Alaska to be a real state, in control of its destiny, in the same manner as the other states. To the best of my recollection, after 50 years the federal governement still has not patented over all the lands the state was to received as part of the statehood compact.
One of the suggestions in vogue at the time was to declare secession, mount a cannon or two on the Tustemena (a state ferry), sail it to Seattle, lob a couple of shots towards downtown, miss and become a conquered enemy. The joke was we would be treated better as a conquered enemy than as a member of the United States.
Frogger: LOL! I need to try a Bobcat someday. My friend and I will need a new outhouse hole someday on her homestead prperty.
Factoid: this is the state where more people voted for the legalization of personal amounts of marijuana in the 1990 election than for Wally Hickel (who was electerd governor).
_____________________________
And the Spirit and the bride say, "Come!" And let him who hears say, "Come!" And let him who thirsts come. Whoever desires, let him take the water of life freely. Rev. 22:17
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RE: Alaska: The Anomoly - 9/3/2008 5:59:43 PM
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78frogger
Posts: 58
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Yes, and Hickel ran under the AIP party even though he was a major proponent of statehood. Basically he was fed up with the Republicans and used the AIP to run. Anyway yes we had a third party candidate win in recent times. Yes, we are all just Republican party loyalists. Snort, laugh.
Please note we often (unless we are morning voters) know the end results of Presidential elections before we even vote, except when they are recounting in Florida. Either way it doesn't matter how we vote.
< Message edited by 78frogger -- 9/3/2008 6:14:36 PM >
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