quote:

Bob just put a scripture up on a different thread, and it seemed to me to be indicating that the believers will be gathered at the last trumpet, and that non believers will be shocked and sorrowful, but believers will be gathered to be with the Lord.

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ORIGINAL: SonicStudent

I know there is mixed views on this. I always thought it was half way through the seven year peace deal, after the abominasion of desilation is set-up in the temple, mid way through the peace deal.

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ORIGINAL: eschatologist

I don't understand where you get the Idea that the great tribulation is 7 years long. The great tribulation is 3 1/2 years long according to what I read in the bible.

Mathew 24:15 and 21: "When ye therefore shall see the Abomination of Desolation spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand in the Holy Place....(The Jewish Temple in Jeruselem) then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be."

So, here we have Jesus telling us that the great tribulation starts when the Abomination of Desolation is set up in the temple. (The Holy Place) So, now let's go back to Daniel and see what he says about it.

Daniel 9:27: "And he (the Antichrist) shall confirm the covenant with many for one week:" (Seven years) He makes a seven year peace pact with many nations. It will be a religious treaty that restores some semblance of peace to the middle east and allows the Jews to rebuild their temple and begin animal sacrifices for the sins of the people according to the laws of Moses. This is something the religious Jews have been wanting to do for a long time. This is why it is also called a Holy covenant in another place. This is probably the peace pact that Sonic alluded to in his post. "and in the midst of the week (after 3 1/2 years, leaving 3 1/2 years to go) he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease, and for the overspreading of abominations he shall make it desolate," So, the antichrist causes all religious worship to cease, including the animal sacrifices of the jews and sets up his abomination of desolation in the middle of the 7 years, leaving 3 1/2 years of great tribulation. The full 7 years is not the time period of the great tribulation, only the last 3 1/2 years. "even until the consummation, (the end) and that determined (The wrath of God) shall be poured upon the desolate." So, the great tribulation shall last until the end when Jesus comes back to rapture and resurrect His saints of all ages, after which the wrath of God shall be poured out upon the wicked (or the "desolate") who are left.

This also gives us the sequence of events for this endtime period. First, the great tribulation, then the second coming of Jesus to rapture and resurrect His saints, then the wrath of God. I'm a post-trib, pre-wrath person when we're talking about the rapture, because I believe that's the most sciptural interpretation.

Daniel 11:28: 'Then he (the antichrist) shall return into his land with great riches; and his heart shall be against the Holy covenant and he shall do exploits and return to his own land." After he makes this peace pact or Holy covenant as it is called here he returns back to his own country a famous and a rich man but his heart is against the Holy covenant. Earlier in Daniel 11 it says he is the king of the North and in Ezekial 38 and 39 it says he is from the land of Gog and Magog, which we know to be the land of modern day Russia. This is also where we get the idea that the antichrist is from Russia. So, after brokering this peace deal, with many other countries involved, that brings peace and stability to the middle east and allows the Jews to begin religous worship and animal sacrifices, he returns back to his homeland of Russia a very famous and rich man. So, verse 29: 'At the time appointed he shall return, and come toward the South; but it shall not be as the former or as the latter." He comes against Isreal again, and has intelligence with those that want to forsake the Holy covenant. But this time he encounters resistance from, who else? the United States.

Verse 30: "For the ships of Chittim shall come against him." Chittim in this verse refers to Great Britain. So, what we are really talking about here when it says "the ships of Chittim" is the U.S., Great Britain, and their allies. We have to remember that Daniel was writing these things in the context of the known world of his day which was actually a very small portion of the earth. But when interpreting these verses now in the endtime period in which we are living we have to look at them in the context of the political and geographical landscape of today's world. Verse 30 continues: 'therefore he shall be grieved, and return, and have indignation against the Holy covenant: so shall he do; he shall even return, and have intellegence with them that forsake the holy covenant."

So, he gets so mad at the U.S.'s risistance that he decides to break the covenant and do what? Set up the abomination of desolation. Verse 31: "And arms shall stand on his part, (He shall have the upper hand militarily) and they shall pollute the sanctuary of strength (Desecrate the temple, or make it "desolate"), and shall take away the daily sacrifice, and they shall place the abomination that maketh desolate."

The main reason I'm going through all these verses is to show you that the abomination of desolation which signals the beginning of the great tribulation, is not set up at the beginning of the 7 year covenant but in the middle of it, which means the great tribulation is 3 1/2 years long, the last 3 1/2 years of the 7 years is the time of the great tribulation.

This is also confirmed in revelations. Revelations 11, 12, and 13 give details of characters and events of the great tribulation.

Revelations 11:2 But the court which is without the temple leave out, and measure it not; for it is given unto the gentiles: and the holy city shall they tread under foot forty and two months." This is the reference to what Daniel said that "they shall pollute the Sanctuary of strength". And here in Revelations it says they shall continue polluting it for 42 months, which is 3 1/2 years.

Rev 11:3:" And I will give power unto my 2 witnesses, and they shall prophesy a thousand two hundred and threescore (1,260) days, clothed in sackcloth." Here, during the great tribulation God will raise up 2 witnesses who will prophesy against the AC government right in the streets of Jeruselem and this prophecying will last for 1,260 days, the 3 1/2 years of the great tribulation. There might be a few people who will get out their calculator and say, "Hey! Wait a minute. 1,260 is slightly less than 3 1/2 years." That's cause the Christian calander that we use today was devised by some monks in the 4th century A.D. and was not in use in John's day. In John's day they were still using the calander devised by the Babylonians, I think, which has each month evenly divided into 30 days each. 30x42=1260.

Verse12:6: "And the woman fled into the wilderness, where she hath a place prepared of God, that they should feed her there a thousand two hundred and threescore days." There it is again, the 3 1/2 years of the great tribulation. The woman in this verse is symbolic of the church, all of God's saved born again Christians who have to flee into the wilderness to escape the clutches of the A.C.

Verse 12:14 kind of duplicates verse 12:6: "And to the woman were given 2 wings of a great eagle, that she might fly into the wilderness, into her place, where she is nourished for a time and times, and half a time from the face of the serpent." The serpent is the devil as verse 9 tells us. the devil possesses the A.C. so when we are fleeing from the A.C. it's really the devil who is trying to destroy us. AS verse 17 says, "And the dragon was wroth with the woman, and went to make war with the remnant of her seed, which keep the commandments of God and have the testimony of Jesus."

Verse 13:5: "And there was given unto him a mouth speaking great things and blasphemies; and power was given unto him to continue forty and two months." This is talking about the A.C. continuing for the 3 1/2 years of the great tribulation.

So, here we have the 3 1/2 years of the great tribulation mentioned 3 different ways so that you can't possibly get it wrong. The Lord must really want us to know how long the great tribulation is going to last. 1260 days, 42 months, a time (1 year, and times (2 years) and half a time (half a year)

quote:

To see this passage here in Matthew 24 (or in Mark 13 or in Luke 21) as a prophecy of a future "Tribulation" or especially a future "Great Tribulation" is just not right!

By the way, the history FORETOLD to Dani'el in Dan. 11 is about the end of Persia, the rise of Alexander the Great, the division of his kingdom upon his death to four of his generals, about the conflicts between the Seleucid Empire of the north (north of Isra'el around the Fertile Crescent) and Egypt of the south! The particular person who desecrates the Temple in Dan. 11 is Antiochus Epiphanes, the one who sacrificed a pig on an altar to Zeus in the Temple of God!

Be careful how you apply the Scriptures to prophecy vs. history!

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To see this passage here in Matthew 24 (or in Mark 13 or in Luke 21) as a prophecy of a future "Tribulation" or especially a future "Great Tribulation" is just not right!

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ORIGINAL: bob97

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To see this passage here in Matthew 24 (or in Mark 13 or in Luke 21) as a prophecy of a future "Tribulation" or especially a future "Great Tribulation" is just not right!

Brother Retro...it pains me deeply but I have to take exception here…

Now it is a fact that events as described in Mat 24 up through verse 26 did occur in 70AD but to say that they are not a picture and prophecy of what will occur in the last week is not entirely true.

Most of these events also occurred around 170BC centered on Antiochus Epiphanes, so once again events of the past are shadows of future events.

I don’t think one can say that the events of Mat 24:27-31 occurred in 70AD. Many have claimed they did but I think it improper to say they Christ actually returned and the elect were gathered.

Bob

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Now it is a fact that events as described in Mat 24 up through verse 26 did occur in 70AD but to say that they are not a picture and prophecy of what will occur in the last week is not entirely true.

Most of these events also occurred around 170BC centered on Antiochus Epiphanes, so once again events of the past are shadows of future events.

I don’t think one can say that the events of Mat 24:27-31 occurred in 70AD. Many have claimed they did but I think it improper to say they Christ actually returned and the elect were gathered.

quote:

ORIGINAL: bob97

quote:

To see this passage here in Matthew 24 (or in Mark 13 or in Luke 21) as a prophecy of a future "Tribulation" or especially a future "Great Tribulation" is just not right!

Brother Retro...it pains me deeply but I have to take exception here…

Now it is a fact that events as described in Mat 24 up through verse 26 did occur in 70AD but to say that they are not a picture and prophecy of what will occur in the last week is not entirely true.

Most of these events also occurred around 170BC centered on Antiochus Epiphanes, so once again events of the past are shadows of future events.

I don’t think one can say that the events of Mat 24:27-31 occurred in 70AD. Many have claimed they did but I think it improper to say they Christ actually returned and the elect were gathered.

Bob

quote:

ORIGINAL: Retrobyter

Shalom, eschatologist!

quote:

ORIGINAL: eschatologist

I don't understand where you get the Idea that the great tribulation is 7 years long. The great tribulation is 3 1/2 years long according to what I read in the bible.

Mathew 24:15 and 21: "When ye therefore shall see the Abomination of Desolation spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand in the Holy Place....(The Jewish Temple in Jeruselem) then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be."

So, here we have Jesus telling us that the great tribulation starts when the Abomination of Desolation is set up in the temple. (The Holy Place) So, now let's go back to Daniel and see what he says about it.

Daniel 9:27: "And he (the Antichrist) shall confirm the covenant with many for one week:" (Seven years) He makes a seven year peace pact with many nations. It will be a religious treaty that restores some semblance of peace to the middle east and allows the Jews to rebuild their temple and begin animal sacrifices for the sins of the people according to the laws of Moses. This is something the religious Jews have been wanting to do for a long time. This is why it is also called a Holy covenant in another place. This is probably the peace pact that Sonic alluded to in his post. "and in the midst of the week (after 3 1/2 years, leaving 3 1/2 years to go) he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease, and for the overspreading of abominations he shall make it desolate," So, the antichrist causes all religious worship to cease, including the animal sacrifices of the jews and sets up his abomination of desolation in the middle of the 7 years, leaving 3 1/2 years of great tribulation. The full 7 years is not the time period of the great tribulation, only the last 3 1/2 years. "even until the consummation, (the end) and that determined (The wrath of God) shall be poured upon the desolate." So, the great tribulation shall last until the end when Jesus comes back to rapture and resurrect His saints of all ages, after which the wrath of God shall be poured out upon the wicked (or the "desolate") who are left.

This also gives us the sequence of events for this endtime period. First, the great tribulation, then the second coming of Jesus to rapture and resurrect His saints, then the wrath of God. I'm a post-trib, pre-wrath person when we're talking about the rapture, because I believe that's the most sciptural interpretation.

Daniel 11:28: 'Then he (the antichrist) shall return into his land with great riches; and his heart shall be against the Holy covenant and he shall do exploits and return to his own land." After he makes this peace pact or Holy covenant as it is called here he returns back to his own country a famous and a rich man but his heart is against the Holy covenant. Earlier in Daniel 11 it says he is the king of the North and in Ezekial 38 and 39 it says he is from the land of Gog and Magog, which we know to be the land of modern day Russia. This is also where we get the idea that the antichrist is from Russia. So, after brokering this peace deal, with many other countries involved, that brings peace and stability to the middle east and allows the Jews to begin religous worship and animal sacrifices, he returns back to his homeland of Russia a very famous and rich man. So, verse 29: 'At the time appointed he shall return, and come toward the South; but it shall not be as the former or as the latter." He comes against Isreal again, and has intelligence with those that want to forsake the Holy covenant. But this time he encounters resistance from, who else? the United States.

Verse 30: "For the ships of Chittim shall come against him." Chittim in this verse refers to Great Britain. So, what we are really talking about here when it says "the ships of Chittim" is the U.S., Great Britain, and their allies. We have to remember that Daniel was writing these things in the context of the known world of his day which was actually a very small portion of the earth. But when interpreting these verses now in the endtime period in which we are living we have to look at them in the context of the political and geographical landscape of today's world. Verse 30 continues: 'therefore he shall be grieved, and return, and have indignation against the Holy covenant: so shall he do; he shall even return, and have intellegence with them that forsake the holy covenant."

So, he gets so mad at the U.S.'s risistance that he decides to break the covenant and do what? Set up the abomination of desolation. Verse 31: "And arms shall stand on his part, (He shall have the upper hand militarily) and they shall pollute the sanctuary of strength (Desecrate the temple, or make it "desolate"), and shall take away the daily sacrifice, and they shall place the abomination that maketh desolate."

The main reason I'm going through all these verses is to show you that the abomination of desolation which signals the beginning of the great tribulation, is not set up at the beginning of the 7 year covenant but in the middle of it, which means the great tribulation is 3 1/2 years long, the last 3 1/2 years of the 7 years is the time of the great tribulation.

This is also confirmed in revelations. Revelations 11, 12, and 13 give details of characters and events of the great tribulation.

Revelations 11:2 But the court which is without the temple leave out, and measure it not; for it is given unto the gentiles: and the holy city shall they tread under foot forty and two months." This is the reference to what Daniel said that "they shall pollute the Sanctuary of strength". And here in Revelations it says they shall continue polluting it for 42 months, which is 3 1/2 years.

Rev 11:3:" And I will give power unto my 2 witnesses, and they shall prophesy a thousand two hundred and threescore (1,260) days, clothed in sackcloth." Here, during the great tribulation God will raise up 2 witnesses who will prophesy against the AC government right in the streets of Jeruselem and this prophecying will last for 1,260 days, the 3 1/2 years of the great tribulation. There might be a few people who will get out their calculator and say, "Hey! Wait a minute. 1,260 is slightly less than 3 1/2 years." That's cause the Christian calander that we use today was devised by some monks in the 4th century A.D. and was not in use in John's day. In John's day they were still using the calander devised by the Babylonians, I think, which has each month evenly divided into 30 days each. 30x42=1260.

Verse12:6: "And the woman fled into the wilderness, where she hath a place prepared of God, that they should feed her there a thousand two hundred and threescore days." There it is again, the 3 1/2 years of the great tribulation. The woman in this verse is symbolic of the church, all of God's saved born again Christians who have to flee into the wilderness to escape the clutches of the A.C.

Verse 12:14 kind of duplicates verse 12:6: "And to the woman were given 2 wings of a great eagle, that she might fly into the wilderness, into her place, where she is nourished for a time and times, and half a time from the face of the serpent." The serpent is the devil as verse 9 tells us. the devil possesses the A.C. so when we are fleeing from the A.C. it's really the devil who is trying to destroy us. AS verse 17 says, "And the dragon was wroth with the woman, and went to make war with the remnant of her seed, which keep the commandments of God and have the testimony of Jesus."

Verse 13:5: "And there was given unto him a mouth speaking great things and blasphemies; and power was given unto him to continue forty and two months." This is talking about the A.C. continuing for the 3 1/2 years of the great tribulation.

So, here we have the 3 1/2 years of the great tribulation mentioned 3 different ways so that you can't possibly get it wrong. The Lord must really want us to know how long the great tribulation is going to last. 1260 days, 42 months, a time (1 year, and times (2 years) and half a time (half a year)

Don't skip verses; it's not conducive to understanding the passage. This prophecy of Yeshua` often called the "Olivet Discourse," recorded in Matthew 24 and 25, Mark 13 and Luke 21, is difficult enough to get people to understand without removing key statements between verses! Here's the full gist of what you quoted:

Matt 24:15-21
15 When ye therefore shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand in the holy place, (whoso readeth, let him understand:)
16 Then let them which be in Judaea flee into the mountains:
17 Let him which is on the housetop not come down to take any thing out of his house:
18 Neither let him which is in the field return back to take his clothes.
19 And woe unto them that are with child, and to them that give suck in those days!
20 But pray ye that your flight be not in the winter, neither on the sabbath day:
21 For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be.
KJV

Now, one must understand that this is a conditional statement that introduces a worst-case scenario. That's why Yeshua` told His students to "pray [i.e., to God] that your flight be not in the winter, neither on the sabbath day!" The abomination that makes the desolated desolate WOULD INDEED happen, but WHEN an event takes place, before it actually occurs, is something that apparently can be "negotiated." Just as the evil that God would do to the people for abandoning Him was postponed until after the reign of Yoshiyahu (Josiah), the TIMING of His judgment can affect how much a person suffers from the curse! (See II Chron. 34:1-33.)

Yeshua` is not saying that "Great Tribulation" WILL occur, but that the "pressure" (thlipsis) MAY be greater if the judgment comes in the winter or on the Shabbat! Therefore, they were instructed to pray that God NOT allow the judgment to occur under those two conditions. As a person who believes that some of this prophecy was fulfilled in the past, particularly at the time when the Jews had to escape from the Roman invasion and the destruction of Yerushalayim and the Temple, I see this as the part that has already occurred. HOWEVER, let me just re-iterate at this point that there are significant portions of the Olivet Discourse that must still be fulfilled even in OUR future!

To see this passage here in Matthew 24 (or in Mark 13 or in Luke 21) as a prophecy of a future "Tribulation" or especially a future "Great Tribulation" is just not right!

By the way, the history FORETOLD to Dani'el in Dan. 11 is about the end of Persia, the rise of Alexander the Great, the division of his kingdom upon his death to four of his generals, about the conflicts between the Seleucid Empire of the north (north of Isra'el around the Fertile Crescent) and Egypt of the south! The particular person who desecrates the Temple in Dan. 11 is Antiochus Epiphanes, the one who sacrificed a pig on an altar to Zeus in the Temple of God!

Be careful how you apply the Scriptures to prophecy vs. history!

Retrobyter

quote:

ORIGINAL: stolar1962

Perhaps any discussion on the rapture should reference passaged which give that indication.

The context of Matt 24 is that Jesus is answering 2 specific question. 1) When will the temple be destroyed? (He had just prophesied its destruction) and 2) What are the signs of your return?

In the cultural/historical context of these questions, you need to consider is that they were directed toward a Jewish audience, not the Church. The Church was not even in existence at this point and the questions were answered with the Jewish nation in view. A nation that had been waiting for their messiah for millenia already.

Rapturist passages include:

John 14:1-4

1 Thess 4:13-17

2 Thess 2:1-4

1 Cor 15:51-54

Some may even want to include Rev 4:1 in the mix as well.

These above passages give the impression that Jesus in not physically coming to Earth even though we are told by the angels in Acts 2:10-11 that He would return the way He left. There are other Old and New Testament passage which clearly support a physical return as well

One must also take into consideration the purpose of the tribulation and great tribulation which had been prophesied by primarily Daniel, Christ and John. This is the final week of judgment which Israel must undergo. The Church has no part in this judgment.

Although prophecy is not the easiest literature to study, keeping in mind the distinction between Israel and Church helps to make a lot of things clearer.